Possible 2-C or 2-B characters from Klonoa?

[Antvasima]

I think that we need better explanations for the King of Sorrow. It currently sounds like he is scaled to universe level from Klonoa's multiverse level statistics.

I also do not think that we can mention a specific number of dreams to the explosion that Klonoa survived, rather than simply state that it was the sum total dreams from millions of worlds.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Hmm...I am a bit uncertain on a couple of things.

First, there's the fact that the Noctis Sol feat does not seem to be a legitimately multiversal showing of durability. While Noctis Sol releases the energy of "millions of dreams", it does not seem at all to be focused on Klonoa and Popka, as they seem to be merely pushed back by it, and then proceed to allow it to carry them as opposed to resisting any sort of destructive force. Especially since, to my knowledge, Popka has always been a comic relief character, and suddenly making him multiversal via this showing seems incredibly off.

Then there's the fact that, while the comic never concluded, Tenebrae Hue, who had absorbed the power of Noctis Sol, was portrayed as vastly superior to everyone else, so I highly doubt Klonoa scales to him, either.

Scaling Klonoa and co. somewhat to Nahatomb is probably legit, though iirc, didn't he not defeat Nahatomb single handedly, and instead used Huepow to destroy a weakened Nahatomb's core?

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the information.

 

[ProtOrnitierX]

Klonoa 2 era Klonoa is capable of harming Nahatomb who has at least universal (possibly multiversal) durability which is where the stat came from. I didn't scale King of Sorrow to the Klonoa comic feat because that takes place well after Klonoa 2. King of Sorrow never reappeared after Klonoa 2 after all (barring flashbacks)

As for the number, I did give a calc on an estimate that presumes each world has a population equal to that of earth's but that suggestion works as well.

"First, there's the fact that the Noctis Sol feat does not seem to be a legitimately multiversal showing of durability."

Multiversal energy was released in a way that harmed them, therefore it's a feat of durability. Also, whether or not something is destructive doesn't matter in determining whether or not it's a feat; energy is energy, and they had the energy maintaining the dreams of millions of worlds released upon them. Heat isn't destructive either, yet surviving the heat of the big bang for instance is what gave Blastaar moon level stats. Only argument to the contrary could be author's intent but I find that rather irrelevant and in this case the author never said anything about this scene which renders it null.

"While Noctis Sol releases the energy of "millions of dreams", it does not seem at all to be focused on Klonoa and Popka,"

Whether or not it was focused on them doesn't take away the feat. An explosion that wipes out all matter in the universe may not be focused on me, but surviving in close proximity to it would still require me to have multi-galaxy level durability. Same deal here but on a higher scale. They were noticeably hit by the energy at a close proximity, so it would at the least scale roughly.

"as they seem to be merely pushed back by it"

Yes, hence the reason it's listed as a durability feat.

I should also point out that Noctis Sol was outright destroyed by the release of energy, meaning that it in actuality was destructive. Same Noctis Sol that has multiversal stats by the very nature of its function as a "character" yet Klonoa and Popka tanked a blast that destroyed even the Noctis Sol.

"and then proceed to allow it to carry them as opposed to resisting any sort of destructive force."

They were not carried by the release of energy through the dreams, they were carried through a stream of dreams. They were visibly already in the dream stream before the explosion of energy, and even if the dream stream was created by the explosion of energy, it doesn't matter since they note that the dream stream had gotten stronger, more intense (in other words, was exerting more pressure onto them) meaning that they tanked the energy released by Noctis Sol in the Dream Stream regardless.

http://klonoa.the-comic.org/comics/29

http://klonoa.the-comic.org/comics/44

"Especially since, to my knowledge, Popka has always been a comic relief character, and suddenly making him multiversal via this showing seems incredibly off."

This is a pretty disingenuous argument. Popka is right alongside Klonoa every step of the way through his journey in Klonoa 2, and is even able to help him if you have a second player/controller as well as being shown to be as swift as Klonoa when they escape the factory explosions. Popka is the reason Lolo placed so high in the Dream Champ Tournament, having helped her the entire way through. Popka is a formidable foe in the KBV. Popka was shown to be competent in the comic and escaped both the Nighty-Knights and Multi-Mini-Minions. Popka is more than a comic relief character, and even if that was his sole role I would argue it's not even ridiculous in and of itself considering we have cosmic scale destruction from random non-fighter fodder artists in the first game (timeline wise) in the series.

Also take note that the comic is end of series, meaning that using earlier feats to determine if it's an outlier is a bit wonky. Not to mention, it being an outlier for Popka would not make it an outlier for Klonoa anyways

"Then there's the fact that, while the comic never concluded, Tenebrae Hue, who had absorbed the power of Noctis Sol, was portrayed as vastly superior to everyone else, so I highly doubt Klonoa scales to him, either."

I never scaled Klonoa to Hue, though I also don't see where he was portrayed as vastly superior to everybody else. He only "beat" Guntz, Chipple, and Dark Klonoa via mindscrewing them, the same thing that happened to Klonoa in Klonoa 1. Klonoa was also confident he could take him, and Klonoa rather humbly admits when he has to run away (like he did in Klonoa 2 against the damaged red robot.... albeit that scene just reeked of PIS considering Klonoa beat said robot while it was in top shape)

"Scaling Klonoa and co. somewhat to Nahatomb is probably legit, though iirc, didn't he not defeat Nahatomb single handedly, and instead used Huepow to destroy a weakened Nahatomb's core?"

In the first game all of his friends tanked Nahatomb's explosion, loaded the moon cannons only to get knocked away, Klonoa got absorbed and broke out of his stomach dimension by smashing his insides, and then they fully loaded the moon cannons to finish Nahatomb off. This is in Klonoa 1, come KBV (which is more than a mere volleyball game considering player legitimately attack each other and fight dirty in the game) he is able to physically compete with Nahatomb. In Dream Champ Tournament he also singlehandedly defeats Garlen straight up who is on par with Nahatomb to the point Nahatomb considered him a valuable partner and fought alongside him as an equal.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, you still need to provide a better profile page explanation for the King of Sorrow's statistics.

 

[ProtOrnitierX]

Attack potency: At least universe level (Can harm Klonoa 2 era Klonoa, who is capable of defeating Garlen singlehandedly and physically contending with Nahatomb)

Durability: At least universe level, higher with shields (Klonoa 2 era was unable to straight up destroy his shielding)

Does this work?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Multiversal energy was released in a way that harmed them, therefore it's a feat of durability. Also, whether or not something is destructive doesn't matter in determining whether or not it's a feat; energy is energy, and they had the energy maintaining the dreams of millions of worlds released upon them. Heat isn't destructive either, yet surviving the heat of the big bang for instance is what gave Blastaar moon level stats. Only argument to the contrary could be author's intent but I find that rather irrelevant and in this case the author never said anything about this scene which renders it null.

Whether or not it was focused on them doesn't take away the feat. An explosion that wipes out all matter in the universe may not be focused on me, but surviving in close proximity to it would still require me to have multi-galaxy level durability. Same deal here but on a higher scale. They were noticeably hit by the energy at a close proximity, so it would at the least scale roughly.

Yes, hence the reason it's listed as a durability feat.

I should also point out that Noctis Sol was outright destroyed by the release of energy, meaning that it in actuality was destructive. Same Noctis Sol that has multiversal stats by the very nature of its function as a "character" yet Klonoa and Popka tanked a blast that destroyed even the Noctis Sol.

They were not carried by the release of energy through the dreams, they were carried through a stream of dreams. They were visibly already in the dream stream before the explosion of energy, and even if the dream stream was created by the explosion of energy, it doesn't matter since they note that the dream stream had gotten stronger, more intense (in other words, was exerting more pressure onto them) meaning that they tanked the energy released by Noctis Sol in the Dream Stream regardless.

http://klonoa.the-comic.org/comics/29

http://klonoa.the-comic.org/comics/44

This is a pretty disingenuous argument. Popka is right alongside Klonoa every step of the way through his journey in Klonoa 2, and is even able to help him if you have a second player/controller as well as being shown to be as swift as Klonoa when they escape the factory explosions. Popka is the reason Lolo placed so high in the Dream Champ Tournament, having helped her the entire way through. Popka is a formidable foe in the KBV. Popka was shown to be competent in the comic and escaped both the Nighty-Knights and Multi-Mini-Minions. Popka is more than a comic relief character, and even if that was his sole role I would argue it's not even ridiculous in and of itself considering we have cosmic scale destruction from random non-fighter fodder artists in the first game (timeline wise) in the series.

Also take note that the comic is end of series, meaning that using earlier feats to determine if it's an outlier is a bit wonky. Not to mention, it being an outlier for Popka would not make it an outlier for Klonoa anyways

I never scaled Klonoa to Hue, though I also don't see where he was portrayed as vastly superior to everybody else. He only "beat" Guntz, Chipple, and Dark Klonoa via mindscrewing them, the same thing that happened to Klonoa in Klonoa 1. Klonoa was also confident he could take him, and Klonoa rather humbly admits when he has to run away (like he did in Klonoa 2 against the damaged red robot.... albeit that scene just reeked of PIS considering Klonoa beat said robot while it was in top shape)

In the first game all of his friends tanked Nahatomb's explosion, loaded the moon cannons only to get knocked away, Klonoa got absorbed and broke out of his stomach dimension by smashing his insides, and then they fully loaded the moon cannons to finish Nahatomb off. This is in Klonoa 1, come KBV (which is more than a mere volleyball game considering player legitimately attack each other and fight dirty in the game) he is able to physically compete with Nahatomb. In Dream Champ Tournament he also singlehandedly defeats Garlen straight up who is on par with Nahatomb to the point Nahatomb considered him a valuable partner and fought alongside him as an equal.

The energy did not harm them, though. They were knocked back, but completely fine. If they really were hit with the destructive force of millions of dreams and completely unharmed, guys like Nahatomb never would have been a problem in the first place, and there seems to be no reason whatsoever for Klonoa to jump from Multi-Universal in the single to low double digits to Multiversal in the millions.

Noctis Sol was destroyed because its energy was escaping it. It is not as if Noctis Sol could not normally contain said energy. Plus, as soon as this energy is released, Klonoa states they'll need to ride the stream and see where it goes, implying something akin to riding the shockwave of the blast. Putting Klonoa and Popka as comparable or superior to Noctis Sol, the source of all dreams, because of this seems very faulty and taking things heavily out of the context the rest of the comic provides.

Popka being with Klonoa does not mean he scales to everything Klonoa does. Obviously, he should be well above fodder, but guys like Nahatomb are very, very far from fodder. Assuming Popka is a multiversal entity who can one-shot guys like Nahatomb has no basis aside from a feat which, again, ignores the rest of the context in the comic.

Tenebrae Hue is the final antagonist, and him having absorbed the power of Noctis Sol is a really big deal. This would not be the case at all if Klonoa was able to casually tank the release of all Noctis Sol's power, implying the feat itself may not be what you are making it out to be. Tenebrae Hue even states Klonoa can't stop him now, and the fact that Klonoa looks worried about his arrival and the fact that Popka, who was also present for Noctis Sol releasing its energy, states going to help Klonoa is too dangerous suggests that Klonoa should not be scaled to Noctis Sol and post-amp Tenebris Hue. In fact, in the very last page of the comic, Tenebrae Hue uses a very small portion of his power, which was formerly Noctis Sol's, to effortlessly take control of several Klonoa-level characters and make them attack Klonoa himself.

Then scaling the gang to Nahatomb should be legit. However, Nahatomb's power being six dreams is Multi-Universal by our scale, as opposed to full on multiversal.

This makes sense, as Noctis Sol and Tenebrae Hue are the strongest characters in the series, and are Multiversal in the scale of millions of universes.

In short, I am fine with Nahatomb being Universal+ or Multi-Universal, and that scaling to Klonoa. I agree Tenebrae Hue at full power and Noctis Sol should be 2-B, but I don't think this scales to anyone else.

Though it would be helpful if you happened to have the thing saying Nahatomb has the power of six dreams, as that would be just straight up Multi-Universal instead of Universal+.

 

[ProtOrnitierX]

Had a giant response but it just got eaten :/

I'll probably respond tomorrow I guess, need to sleep in a second.

 

[Antvasima]

@ProtOrnitierX I suppose so.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

There are a couple of other relevant things I'll just post here for people to look at whenever they're able.

Here is one of Tenebrae Hue's scientists mentioning that, should they launch the rocket at this moment, the blast from lift-off would destroy his knights and Klonoa, and Hue verifies that he is aware of that sacrifice. Now we obviously don't know exactly how strong this rocket's takeoff is, but I can guarantee you it isn't greater than the entirety of the strongest being in the verse's energy, and Klonoa doesn't tank this blast, but escapes it by climbing on the rocket itself.

Here Huepow confirms that the three of them dove into Noctis Sol's released Dream Energy, which took them to past dreams. This pretty much confirms Klonoa and Popka did not tank some kind of multiversal blast, but instead were transported by the Dream Energy exploding forth from Noctis.

Here Klonoa refuses to reenter the Dream Stream because it is becoming increasingly intense, and he would no longer be able to handle it.

So again, while I do believe Noctis Sol to be a legit multiversal entity and Tenebrae Hue to scale after absorbing its power, neither of these characters remotely scale to Klonoa and co.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Azathoth makes sense.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Also, I just checked the battle again, and there does not seem to be any instance of Klonoa harming Nahatomb prior to the entity being weakened. He spends the first part of the battle running from Nahatomb's attacks and feeding ammo into the Moon Cannons before they fire, weakening Nahatomb.

Nahatomb then sucks Klonoa up, and Klonoa gets the nightmare entity to spit him out by destroying the crystals Nahatomb summons.

Then, he dodges Nahatomb some more and eventually, Nahatomb is hit with a second volley from the Moon Cannons, crippling him before he is finished off by having Huepow fired into him.

Does anyone have the scene in which Klonoa harms full power Nahatomb?

Edit:

Rechecked something else, too. The Artists from Moonlight Museum should definitely not be considered fodder, as seem to have magical powers, and one of them even traps Klonoa and Huepow inside of a painting as soon as they meet.

If the scene of Klonoa harming full power Nahatomb cannot be found, it is likely his best raw power feat would be beating down Ghadius, which based on Proto's calc above, would be well within the range of something like "At least Planet level+, likely higher"

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

I, honestly, don't see how the King of Sorrow is universal. The dialouge about the world being destroyed seemed more focus on the planet Lunatea resides on than the actual dream. I completely overlooked the fact that Leronia destoryed the sea when she was cursed. I'll add that to th profile. I also overlooked the feats for Moonlight Museum, so I have no qualms with that either. Ask for Nahatomb, while Klonoa didn't fight him directly in phase 1 and 3....I'm unsure of how to scale him from the second phase. Aren't the crystals somehow organically link? Afterall, he transformed after that phase while roaring in anger.

 

[Operationgamer17]

Does anyone have the scene in which Klonoa harms full power Nahatomb?

This is likely referring to his battle with Nahatomb in Klonoa Heroes.

 

[SuperBearNeo_X]

I hope i'm not too late to this thread. But there's alot that supports Klonoa being 2-C to even 2-B

>According to Ghadius Nahatomb has enough energy to destroy existence itself, which includes Phantomile, which is built up from all dreams that exist within the Klonoa Reality, of which there are Millions of at least according to Noctis Sol

>Ghadius fought The Four Spirits who created Phantomile , which as establied above, is more than just a town but it's own seperate multiverse with atleast millions of dreams, likely countless due to the nature of Dreams

>Bagoo was going to literally steal everyone's dreams and turn them into Monsters . It should be noted that Dreams were in reference to actual worlds and not something like hope or something like that

^ This should scale to Klonoa, as he's defeated all three of these people and there's not inconsistency with it either, as Klonoa having Anti-Feats are as common as a Four Leaf Clover

On a side note, Nahatomb should have Type 8 Immortality, As long as dreams exist Nahatomb can never truly die

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

If it's millions then it's definitely 2-B.

 

[Antvasima]

We talked about this 2.5 years ago...