Pokémon Types: Establishing Standards

[Lou_change]

light orbs, flames, curses ect.

Light balls are still ectoplasm, flames too, and what is curses from.

 

[Antoniofer]

It's both actually because of moves like scald, scorching sand, steam eruption and ice burn

Going how broad a burning is, it seems more like an Stamina (Endurance) feat for all fire type pkm, as not all burnings wounds comes from elevated heat, but for chemical reactions as well for example (although, that may sound farfetched for an entire category of pkm to be immune to one type of wound).

 

[Elizhaa]

Option 1.5 seems fine.

 

[Lou_change]

Going how broad a burning is, it seems more like an Stamina (Endurance) feat for all fire type pkm, as not all burnings wounds comes from elevated heat, but for chemical reactions as well for example (although, that may sound farfetched for an entire category of pkm to be immune to one type of wound).

Okay how do we list burns magic fire keeps burning you. Pokémon should still resist attacks even if poison type moves can be resisted poison moves work by shooting jets of poison or using poison type energy.

 

[Antoniofer]

Burn status condition either happens because the pkm is on flames or is suffering from wound, depending of how is interpreted, is either resistance to fire andn specific endurance feat. Someone knowledgeable would need to confirm, but don't think games bothered in elaborating on this issue.

 

[FinePoint]

I also think we should remove what's the """resistance""" and just type it as Damage reduction. Lot's of times Pokémon have been defeated from moves they resist, and Pokémon verse definition of resistance =/= ours.

Only thing that would count as real Resistance is stuff like Ice Types resisting Absolute Zero or Steel Types being resistant to poison.

How would this work exactly? They'd just have Damage Reduction, with the types in parenthesis? Would we still link to powers within those parenthesis?

 

[FinePoint]

this makes more sense, thanks for the explanation

So, what are your overall thoughts at this point?
Do you agree with any of the options?

 

[FinePoint]

Option 1.5 seems fine, I think Ghost and Flying type moves can be categorised as Ectoplasm/Air Manipulation respectively. Yes, moves like Razor Wind and Twister exist, but air attacks are predominantly Flying type.

Well, also all the "normal" flying type moves glow with bird-type energy from the plates, which could be interpreted and equalized as it being infused with the element of air.

I mean, Pokemon isn't the only verse where you have otherwise normal hits "enhanced" with an element.

 

[Antoniofer]

Now that re-read OP, Option 1.5 does not sound bad either, but is somehow similar to Option 2: if we simply write "resistant to x type" with no other elaboration, at the end people will try to determinate what is the typing from whatever character is fighting the pkm. Aside of the main forms of energies (electricity, fire and ice) and the common fictional energies (such magic, darkness and psi for example), most powers performed by non-pkm character will end up being normal type.

 

[FinePoint]

Exactly my stand on the subject.

I think the types Resistance shouldn't be linked to the actual effect, but rather to the move's "origin".

To take an example using Sound Manipulation and Pikachu.

If a sound attack is used on him by like, screaming; he would just take regular damage.
If a sound attack was made using Steel (something he resists), he would take less damage from it.

I think it makes more sense and is overall easier than focusing on each move's own inner working.

Without mentionning Normal/Fighting/Fly types, there's some like Dark types moves, which, while having actual darkness manip by times, actually is "Evil type", and has some moves which are just the user being a pragmatic scum.

So, do any of the options look appealing to you?
Or, should I add another option?
If so, could you provide a concise description of the stance?

 

[FinePoint]

I believe I've counted every official vote so far.
If I missed any, just let me know.

 

[Antoniofer]

How would this work exactly? They'd just have Damage Reduction, with the types in parenthesis? Would we still link to powers within those parenthesis?

Something like "Damage Reduction (Halves the damage coming from [write the type or types] attacks)", but that is going for the Option 1.5 part.

 

[FinePoint]

Something like "Damage Reduction (Halves the damage coming from [write the type or types] attacks)", but that is going for the Option 1.5 part.

Okay. I'll simply amend this adjustment to Option 1.5 then.

 

[Lou_change]

I still disagree with the change in the natural of 1.5 there are more unconventional resistances on the site.

 

[KingTempest]

So, what are your overall thoughts at this point?
Do you agree with any of the options?

1.5's fine

 

[XXKINGXX69]

I also think we should remove what's the """resistance""" and just type it as Damage reduction. Lot's of times Pokémon have been defeated from moves they resist, and Pokémon verse definition of resistance =/= ours.

Only thing that would count as real Resistance is stuff like Ice Types resisting Absolute Zero or Steel Types being resistant to poison.

They do resist it though, enough to count for a resistance here. There are Pokemon who are just strong enough to almost bypass that resistance

 

[XXKINGXX69]

So if you resist Bug type moves, you would get minor resistance to sound manipulation (bug buzz)

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Normal: Sound, Empathic Manipulation, Existence Erasure and Spatial manipulation
Fire: Lava and Heat (self explanatory)
Fighting Type: Chi manipulation
Fairy: Soul Manipulation

Water: Alkaline Manipulation (read G-Max Kingler's entry)
Grass: Life Manipulation and Absorption, Soul Manipulation (One's life force is the same thing as their soul), Acid Manipulation
Poison: Acid Manipulation (Even Toxic, which doesn't do much damage, can corrode things), Fragrance Manipulation (G-Max Malodor too)
Electric: Absorption

 

[StrymULTRA]

They do resist it though, enough to count for a resistance here. There are Pokemon who are just strong enough to almost bypass that resistance

What literally all the medias say is another thing. They just reduce the damage, not that they're immune to it.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

What literally all the medias say is another thing. They just reduce the damage, not that they're immune to it.

Scans?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Scans?

Is that really necessary? It's kinda common knowledge that even being "super resistant" (x4 resistance) =/= immune.

The examples you've mentioned are just because the Pokémon was strong enough to bypass said Damage Reduction from raw power alone, not that they literally bypass immunity (tho there are exceptions like Adventures Red's Pikachu who defeated an Onix with a Thunderbolt, but again, those ARE exceptions to this rule).

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Is that really necessary? It's kinda common knowledge that even being "super resistant" (x4 resistance) =/= immune.

The examples you've mentioned are just because the Pokémon was strong enough to bypass said Damage Reduction from raw power alone, not that they literally bypass immunity (tho there are exceptions like Adventures Red's Pikachu who defeated an Onix with a Thunderbolt, but again, those ARE exceptions to this rule).

Immunity is just "high resistance". No such thing as a full immunity anyways, thats NLF

 

[StrymULTRA]

Immunity is just "high resistance". No such thing as a full immunity anyways, thats NLF

Don't derail. You know well what I mean in Pokémon context.

Immunity in Pokémon = Resistance here.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Don't derail. You know well what I mean in Pokémon context.

Immunity in Pokémon = Resistance here.

Yes an immunity in Pokemon is resistance, how does that make resistance in Pokemon not resistance here?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Yes an immunity in Pokemon is resistance, how does that make resistance in Pokemon not resistance here?

Because it just reduces to 1/2 or 1/4 the total damage you'd receive without it.

 

[FinePoint]

Yes an immunity in Pokemon is resistance, how does that make resistance in Pokemon not resistance here?

Because they take less damage, but are still affected by all the alternative effects, especially status moves.
Usually in this wiki Resistance means it's mostly nullified.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Because they take less damage, but are still affected by all the alternative effects, especially status moves.
Usually in this wiki Resistance means it's mostly nullified.

Nah, it also depends on the potency of that hax or ability. It can still be a limited resistance too.

Usually in this wiki Resistance means it's mostly nullified.

Not all the time

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Because it just reduces to 1/2 or 1/4 the total damage you'd receive without it.

Is that stated in canon or just game mechanics? And how is that not resistance?

 

[FinePoint]

Nah, it also depends on the potency of that hax or ability. It can still be a limited resistance too.

You just proved my point... we call it "Limited Resistance" if it only nullifies a portion of it.

 

[FinePoint]

Is that stated in canon or just game mechanics? And how is that not resistance?

It's not resistance because the ONLY thing it reduces is damage, it has no effect on the extra effects.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

You just proved my point... we call it "Limited Resistance" if it only nullifies a portion of it.

Can you show me? Is this a new rule? Pretty sure its just context dependent

It's not resistance because the ONLY thing it reduces is damage, it has no effect on the extra effects.

If you resist the electricity but are still affected by the paralysis, does that just mean you don't resist it anymore?

 

[FinePoint]

Can you show me? Is this a new rule? Pretty sure its just context dependent

I can't point you to anything specific, it's just the way I've always seen it done.
For example, if someone has "Resistance to Time Stop", then you assume they can't be affected at all, not that they are only affected by 1/2.
Same with Mind Manipulation, you assume that mind controlling them without layers won't work at all.
If it does still affect them somewhat, you put "Limited Resistance".

If you resist the electricity but are still affected by the paralysis, does that just mean you don't resist it anymore?

It means you resist electricity but not paralysis... I don't think any Electric Type moves can paralyze a ground type without special circumstances.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

I can't point you to anything specific, it's just the way I've always seen it done.
For example, if someone has "Resistance to Time Stop", then you assume they can't be affected at all, not that they are only affected by 1/2.
Same with Mind Manipulation, you assume that mind controlling them without layers won't work at all.
If it does still affect them somewhat, you put "Limited Resistance".

It means you resist electricity but not paralysis... I don't think any Electric Type moves can paralyze a ground type without special circumstances.

Yeah, so its a case by case basis. If you see a Charizard taking a Steel Beam without much damage it would still count as resistance to metal manipulation (Only if its like "steely energy"

 

[StrymULTRA]

If you see a Charizard taking a Steel Beam without much damage it would still count as resistance to metal manipulation

You played yourself here as Charizard still had visible damage. It's not resistance, just damage reduction.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Normal: Sound, Empathic Manipulation, Existence Erasure and Spatial manipulation
Fire: Lava and Heat (self explanatory)
Fighting Type: Chi manipulation
Fairy: Soul Manipulation

Water: Alkaline Manipulation (read G-Max Kingler's entry)
Grass: Life Manipulation and Absorption, Soul Manipulation (One's life force is the same thing as their soul), Acid Manipulation
Poison: Acid Manipulation (Even Toxic, which doesn't do much damage, can corrode things), Fragrance Manipulation (G-Max Malodor too)
Electric: Absorption

Still disagree with making them resist the specific effects rather than the source.

 

[FinePoint]

Still disagree with making them resist the specific effects rather than the source.

Indeed. I don't think there's even a basis for most of it.
Secondary effects aren't affected by type matchup, it's just that you can't get a secondary effect if the primary attack doesn't work.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Indeed. I don't think there's even a basis for most of it.
Secondary effects aren't affected by type matchup, it's just that you can't get a secondary effect if the primary attack doesn't work.

Meh. Thunder Wave just doesn't work on Ground Types despite it's just an effect and doesn't damage.

 

[FinePoint]

Meh. Thunder Wave just doesn't work on Ground Types despite it's just an effect and doesn't damage.

Yes, and that's literally the only status move which cares, and it doesn't change anything.
The ground types are resisting thunder wave specifically because it's electricity. It's the same as them resisting nuzzle and not getting paralyzed.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Yes, and that's literally the only status move which cares, and it doesn't change anything.
The ground types are resisting thunder wave specifically because it's electricity. It's the same as them resisting nuzzle and not getting paralyzed.

A thing like "Resistance to Electric based Paralysis" then?

 

[FinePoint]

A thing like "Resistance to Electric based Paralysis" then?

No... they can still be paralyzed, and it still does the electric effect.
It's just by other moves.