Pokemon Immeasurable Speed Upgrade

[Xerkser500]

Hi there. Because im still new here, I don't know if what im about to post for this thread has been talked about, consdered, or just denied before. Im told the speed rating used to be here for the Pokemon god tiers for different reasons but was removed. Whatever the case, I did some searching through old material and I found some new stuff that I thought should be at least given a thread to talk about. Here goes.

Now to obtain Immeasurable Speed using this sites requirements, you have to be able to either be beyond time or move beyond linear time with sheer speed. The things I found go in hand with the latter.

In Pokemon Mystery Dunegon, both Darkrai and Palkia perform feats that should go in hand with moving beyond linear time. Getting to Darkrai first, then Palkia. And here is the episode in the game where they come from.

For Darkrai, his feat comes from his assault on the player and Grovyle. Darkrai attacked both the Player and Grovyle while they were in the middle of traveling through time from the future as Darkrai's the reason the player was sent to the past as a pokemon in the first place.

















For Palkia, his feat comes from attacking Darkrai the same way. After getting an L from Cresselia, the player and their partner, Darkrai opens a dimensional hole to let him travel through time in an attempt to escape. While escaping, Palkia drops by out of nowhere and attacks the dimensional hole with Darkrai still inside. The dimensional hole being used i'll explain right after as I expect that to be brought up.
















Want to keep this short as I can cuz this is already one hell of an essay. Because of Palkia's part of this upgrade post, there's likely already going to be some doubt for Darkrai because of him using a dimensional hole later on. And because I can already predict the possible counters, im just post rebuttals and keep it simple.

Rebuttal 1: "Darkrai used a Dimensional Portal to escape the players and Cresselia, so it's likely he also used it to attack the Protagonist and Grovyle while they were time traveling."

Counter: Not neccesarily true. While it is true that Darkrai can open dimensional holes himself for time traveling, there's evidence to imply Darkrai isn't able to actually control or determine where the portal takes him between the past and future. When trying to escape Cresselia, the protagonist and partner, Darkrai explicitly says that he doesn't even know where the portal will take him between the past and future.




That gives us reason to say Darkrai cannot actually control where the dimensional hole will take him through time. So as for Darkrai attacking the player and Grovyle mid time-traveling, if you're making this counter-argument, answer me this. Why would Darkrai intentfully use a hax he can't even fully control to try stopping 2 beings who pose a serious threat to his plan?

Unless you want to make a speculative argument that Darkrai just, suddently, "got lucky" enough to dimensional hole himself to Grovyle and the player to attack them, common sense would say Darkrai wouldn't be stupid enough to risk his plan of wrapping the world in darkness by purposely using an ability he himself knows can easily do more harm to his goals than good.

Counter 2: "Then why did Darkrai try using the dimensional hole to escape Cresselia and the player's team if he can't control it?"

For a clean escape, and, for being weakened. Simple as that.

After creating the dimensional hole, Darkrai outright showed us and those 3 he didn't care where the hole would take him for he would simply just plunge the world into darkness and complete his plan in the time period he ends up in. The only thing that mattered to Darkrai was escaping from the 3.





Not only to get away, but beause he was also very weakened. Darkrai had just literally got his ass kicked by the player, their partner, and Cresselia, Darkrai's polar equal on her lonesome. For a hax that he can use, but cannot fully control, it should not be out of left field to say Darkrai would only use the dimensional hole as a last resort. When he absolutely needs it. Which this situation easily calls for.

So if there are no other actual issues, I think Darkrai and Palkia should be granted Immeasurable Speed again based off this, and the mon who scale of course.

Also, just a small bonus. I think Palkia's Nigh Omnipresence needs to be discussed again based on this. Because when Darkrai gets hit by Palkias attack in the dimensional hole, Palkia outright confirms Darkrai still lives but just in a random place in a different time.






As Cresselia herself said, Darkrai began time-traveling the moment he entered the dimensional hole, so whether going to the future or past, we know he was going through time. Yet, even after getting banish treatment and ending up in a place unknown, through time, Palkia confirms that Darkrai still lives.

This implies Palkia's spatial omnipresence is also throughout time as well, otherwise there would be no way for Palkia to confirm if Darkrai was alive or not. So..

TL;DR: Upgrade the god tiers to Immeasurable Speed via Darkrai and Pakia and also relook at Palkai's nigh omnipresence to see if it needs upgrading as well.

 

[Xerkser500]

bump

 

[DMB_1]

I don't see how this proves immeasurable speed.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

@Xerser I read through your explanations and here's my opinion on it:

1. This isn't a legitimate immeasurable speed feat (nor an infinite speed feat either & not implying Darkrai doesn't have infinite speed since that backed up by other speed feats that are considered to be reliable) due to the fact that time travel involves you moving through Time itself, not beyond it.

Also, Darkrai is using time portals ("dimensional holes") to travel to different time periods in this game, so it isn't a speed feat in general really.

2. Also, IIRC that spinoffs relating to Pokemon Mystery Dungeon are not a part of the main canon, so we don't use that info. for these profiles.

 

[Xerkser500]

1. This isn't a legitimate immeasurable speed feat due to the fact that time travel involves you moving through Time itself, not beyond it.

Also, Darkrai is using time portals ("dimensional holes") to travel to different time periods in this game, so it isn't a speed feat in general really.

2. Also, IIRC that spinoffs relating to Pokemon Mystery Dungeon are not a part of the main canon, so we don't use that info. for these profiles.

1.) Thats not what im told. From what I was told, time traveling with sheer speed instead of a hax is an immeasurable speed feat because your physically moving beyond linear time. Thats the point of my thread.

And I already debunked the counter of Darkrai using Dimensional Holes to do that since he cannot control where the dimensional hole, or "time portal", will take him and would very likely only use it when he absolutely needs to.

 

[Xerkser500]

I don't see how this proves immeasurable speed.

Basically my point's are this:

-Darkrai moved through time with sheer speed to attack Grovyle and the player while they were time-traveling. According to what im told, this is moving beyond linear time, which is immeasurable speed.

-Palkia attacks and hits Darkrai the moment the dimesional hole made him start time-traveling according to Cresselia and sent Darkrai to a different time period. This should also be an immeasurable speed feat.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@Magi Hussie If your time travel is done via movement alone then that is immeasurable.

 

[DMB_1]

1) In the scan, it's never stated that he traveled with sheer speed. "With a step" just means that he can time travel whenever he feels like it and/or with relative ease. Him "attacking them while they were traveling through time" would kind of suggest this... However, in fiction, just like dimensional travel, time travel isn't always portrayed as an instantaneous process: it may take the user to fully travel through a wormhole or a gateway first to reach their destination.

In fact, the "dimensional hole" thing actually supports this. Darkrai would have simply attacked them while they were traveling through the portal.

In addition, since Time Travel is depicted here as a very important and dangerous thing to do, the characters having Immeasurable speed, which would give them the ability to casually move through time through sheer movement, contradicts the fact that they need dimensional holes and stuff. If in a verse time travel is treated as such a big deal, the characters having immeasurable speed is as unlikely as it can get.

2) This disproves immeasurable speed more than anything: Darkrai was going to travel through time by using the dimensional hole (which supports my previous points), and Palkia stopped him by destroying it. As a consequence, Darkrai was sent to a point of space and time from which he couldn't come back... Something that he should have been able to do if he had immeasurable speed.

 

[Xerkser500]

@DMB 1

Your missing the point of what my OP is saying.

1.) The scan with Darkrai saying "he can travel through time with a step" isn't to justify him having Immeasurable Speed as that specifically is only time travel. What im saying that does justify immeasurable speed for him is Darkrai attacking Groyvle and the player while they were in the middle of time-traveling.

The rest of my OP is to counter people who use "Darkrai used the dimensional hole" as a counter to deny the upgrade. Darkrai couldn't have used the dimensional hole to attack them because, as I specified, he cannot control where the hole leads to. Whether it leads to the past or future is entirely out of Darkrai's control. And unless you argue he just got lucky, he wouldn't have used such a risky hax to try stopping individuals who pose a major threat to his plan.

2. ) And as my OP counters once again, Darkrai only used the dimensional hole because he was weakened from battle.

He had just gotten his ass kicked by a combination of the player, their partner, and Cresselia, Darkrai's polar opposite.

 

[DMB_1]

1) Look at my previous post again, and I explained how that can very well not be immeasurable speed.

2) If Darkrai was immeasurable, he wouldn't have used the hole no matter what, and neither would have Palkia being bothered by Time Traveling (which is again, treated as a big deal here) if Darkrai had immeasurable speed since it would have been something inevitable.

3) If he had Immeasurable speed, he would have been able to come back from being sent in another point in time.

4) Being weakened can't just make you lose a degree of infinity in terms of speed, especially when he isn't weakened by much.

 

[Xerkser500]

>If Darkrai was immeasurable, he wouldn't have used the hole no matter what.

Even if he was weakened and had literally just gotten a smack down from his polar equal and 2 other mon who defeated Dialga?

>neither would have Palkia being bothered by Time Traveling (which is again, treated as a big deal here) if Darkrai had immeasurable speed since it would have been something inevitable.

Look at the scans I posted again. Palkia wasn't bothered by time traveling, he was bothered by Darkrai being the one to expand the space distortion. Thats actually Palkia's only complaint in this game.

>If he had Immeasurable speed, he would have been able to come back from being sent in another point in time.

It's not that he couldnt, but because Darkrai saw no need to. Darkrai already said prior he would just continue his plan in another time so to him it didnt matter. Adding to that, Darkrai lost his memory when Palkia's attack hit him, so without his memory of everything, Darkrai would not even see any need to come back.

Like Cresselia said, Darkrai at that point was just going to wander the world he was banished to without remembering anything.

That, and Darkrai was damaged by Palkia's attack.

>Being weakened can't just make you lose a degree of infinity in terms of speed, especially when he isn't weakened by much.

Resee my first point. Darkrai wasn't just weakened by any normal pokemon. He was beaten by the players who could defeat Dialga and Cresselia, his equal.

Im pretty sure that justifies Darkrai being too weak to physically escape.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

@Xerser

1. You're moving between 2 time periods within the same timeline, so you would be moving through linear time not beyond it since you're clearly not traveling between timelines (which that, however, is considered as immeasurable my dude).

2. It doesn't matter whether you have control or not on the specific time period you want the time portal to take you as you're not using sheer speed to do this specific method of time travel.

@Shadow Yea but using time portals isn't a legit immeasurable speed feat due to not being considered as movement speed in any way, shape, or form.

 

[Dragopentling]

Omnipresent in its Realm of Time, yet is not considered Immeasurable? Ok....

PaChi2 says "scale it to Pikachu's speed" cause anime Pikachu tickled Arceus a few times with lightning bolts despite PIS being quite a thing with Poke Gods in anime.....k.

I want to just sit back and give up, but the elephant in the room won't let me leave or have room to sit.

EDIT: where's ProfessorKukui when you need him?

 

[Xerkser500]

@Xerser

1.) Moving through linear time with physical movement is what im told counts as a speed feat. Either physically moving through linear time or moving beyond time is an immeasurable speed feat. Both of them can count. Darkrai intercepted and attacked Groyvle and the player while the latters where in the middle of time-traveling to the past.

2.) Your still missing the point of what im saying. Darkrai using the Dimensional Hole to escape Cresselia and the protags is NOT the feat that justifies his Immeasurable Speed. It's him attacking Groyvle and the Player while the latters are time traveling that does.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Yes, time travel with movement alone is immeasurable speed. It doesn't abide by the linear passage of time, so it is movement beyond it.

 

[Xerkser500]

Yes, time travel with movement alone is immeasurable speed. It doesn't abide by the linear passage of time, so it is movement beyond it.

Btw, whats your opinion on the bonus part of my post about Palkia's omnipresence?

The way I see it, it makes no sense for Palkia to be able to confirm Darkrai is alive in another point in time if his spatial omnipresence wasn't across time.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Ye, I think Palkia should be omnipresent across space and time.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

@Xerser

1. Also, you don't need to be infinite nor immeasurable to time travel with movement speed, a list of characters who are FTL minimum can do that just fine & traveling in linear time can go 2 ways: moving backward of linear time takes you to the past & moving forward of linear time takes you to the future.

2. Darkrai must have used a ranged attack (it would make sense for him to use a ranged attack (which he always uses first) to separate the 2 apart rather than trying to stop them with brute force alone) to target both of them and Grovyle shielded the attack from hitting his friend but they ended up separated shortly after. Also, using a time portal to travel back to an earlier time period just to attack those 2 while they're trying to time travel doesn't sound like a movement speed feat either.

@Shadow Like what I mentioned to Xerser, traveling through linear time can go 2 ways: moving backward in linear time takes you to the past & moving forward in linear time takes you to the future.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@Magi Hussie The speed page disagrees with you.

Note 5:

Characters that are able to move backwards and forwards through time by movement alone qualify for immeasurable speed. However, due to general inconsistencies, and the fact that several fictions grant this ability to any character able to move FTL, they may be assigned an additional, independent, speed rating for the ability. This should preferably be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

@ShadowWarrior

>Still ignores the fact that Darkrai explicitly was using time portals ("dimensional holes") in the scan, not physically time traveling to the past himself

>Ignores the fact that moving backward (time travel) or forward through linear time =/= moving between timelines (immeasurable)

>Implying that moving through time portals is an immeasurable speed feat regardless (this is basically the equivalent of saying that walking through any portals which allows you to go to any known location instantly as teleportation somehow makes you immeasurable logic)

>Forgets the fact that time travelers who are FTL minimum can physically travel to an earlier/later time period just fine without having infinite nor immeasurable speed

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

>This I wasn't arguing. Why are you addressing this to me?

>What you're describing is immeasurable. Time traveling with movement alone is moving beyond linear time. Once again, the speed page even disagrees with you.

>Never said this.

>Some fictions have this but not all of them. Case-by-case basis.

 

[DMB_1]

May I ask something?

How do the protagonists time-travel?

 

[Magi_Hussie]

@Shadow

>You're ignoring the very first thing that easily disproves this from being an immeasurable speed feat

>Time Travel or traveling to the future alone definitely isn't immeasurable dude and the first thing mentioned under the sub-heading "General Relativity" saids otherwise.

The keyword is "implying."

All fictions have this Shadow and literally every character having the Immeasurable speed rating for "traveling or moving through time" easily done this feat just by being FTL minimum.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

>Not here to argue about the dimensional holes so that doesn't matter.

>If you do it with movement alone, not with portals or teleportation, then it is immeasurable speed.

>Blatantly false. Otherwise every instance of a character going FTL in fiction would be time travel.

 

[Xerkser500]

1.) Shadow's already answered this from the looks of it. Unless you make a CRT to change the requirements for Immeasurable Speed and the changes get accepted, moving through time with sheer speed and not time traveling hax counts as an immeasurable speed feat here.

2.) It's never explained what kind of attack Darkrai used for one. All he confirmed was that he learned of Grovyle and the players coming to the past from the future and attacked them to try stopping them from stopping his plan.

But more importantly, even if your "ranged attack" argument is to be true, what exactly is it supposed to mean here? It still means Darkrai attacked them with sheer speed instead of using the dimensional hole, which for all the reasons i've given here, he wouldn't be stupid enough to use.

>Also, using a time portal to travel back to an earlier time period just to attack those 2 while they're trying to time travel doesn't sound like a movement speed feat either.

Except, Darkrai didn't or likely wouldn't use a time portal to attack those 2 mid time travel. That is my point.

Darkrai cannot control where the dimensional hole will time travel to, so unless he again just got very lucky, why would he purposely use a time traveling hax he can't even fully control to try stopping beings who pose too much of a serious threat to his plan? That's nonsensical.

 

[Xerkser500]

May I ask something?
How do the protagonists time-travel?

Grovyle and the player?

That...I don't recall. I'll take a look for it in a bit.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

@Shadow

>Okay then, so I don't need to remind you how it works then.

>Something Darkrai didn't do in the scans @Xerkser provided without a time portal ("dimensional holes")

>Never implied that every character who is able to move at FTL speeds would automatically be able to time travel. I only said and clearly meant that those who are capable of time traveling with movement speed alone wouldn't need to have immeasurable nor infinite speed as they can merely do this simply just by being FTL minimum. That's all.

@Xerkser

1. Unless you are okay with completely ignoring how General Relativity works for fictional characters who physically moving backwards (time travel) or forwards through time, then be my guest. However, in cases like these, we shouldn't be doing that. Another thing to point out is that Darkrai was never shown to be in all 3 time periods within their timeline he's in simulantaneously by using sheer speed alone either, only 1 time period at a time. So how would he still be considered "immeasurable" just for that exactly?

2. I see no problems of Darkrai using a ranged attack (considering the fact that some of those ranged attacks can induce nightmares) and him using his sheer speed to stop them is part of it.

3. Pretty sure he literally did it to find their location of where they are going to time travel.

Yet he still uses it for an escape and for time travel anyways.

 

[Dragopentling]

So people deny the potency of those feats from Pokémon, yet accept anything for Digimon due to "oh it's powerscaling"

Yea, no, I don't buy the excuse to NOT accept Immeasurable here.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with DMB 1. Travelling through portals is not different than using a time machine. Neither of which automatically means higher speed.

We should probably close this thread.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

@Drago We have valid reasons of why we deny certain feats from Pokemon. For Digimon, I'm not 100% sure exactly why some people still do that up until this point but that's for a different topic.

It's not really an excuse, this is rather a common thing in fiction that characters capable of time traveling through sheer speed are always considered to be FTL minimum according to General Relativity and never infinite nor immeasurable due to how inaccurate the assumption of that claim is in many ways.

 

[Dragopentling]

@Drago We have valid reasons of why we deny certain feats from Pokemon. For Digimon, I'm not 100% sure exactly why some people still do that up until this point but that's for a different topic.
It's not really an excuse, this is rather a common thing in fiction that characters capable of time traveling through sheer speed are always considered to be FTL minimum according to General Relativity and never infinite nor immeasurable due to how inaccurate the assumption of that claim is in many ways.

I can understand your point on Pokemon, but not Digimon, that's all.

Infinite Speed is bare minimum for these Poke Gods, though....anything along "FTL or MFTL" is just ridiculous, especially when you consider Dialga's feat in the manga.

 

[Antvasima]

It is better that you discuss Digimon in a different thread.

 

[Xerkser500]

Ant, with all due respect, don't close this thread please.

All of the reasons for denying this are ones that are complete misunderstandings and reasons that my post already made account of and explained.

I just woke up so please let me clear this up.

 

[Xerkser500]

1.) First of all, I never said I was or wasn't okay with how General Relativity works. All im saying is that's how this site details the requirements for Immeasurable Speed. Either moving beyond time or physically moving through linear time grants you the rating. So, again, please make a CRT to talk about your issues with the requirements, otherwise the requirements stand.

Second of all, im pretty sure "being in different time periods simutaneously" has, like, nothing to do with having immesurable speed. Thats nigh-temporal omnipresence.

2.) So your essentially agreeing with me on my point that Darkrai used sheer speed to attack Grovyle and the player while the latters where in the middle of time-traveling then? Thats an immeasurable speed feat as of now.

3.) Headcanon. Darkrai simply confirms that after he sabatoged Temporal Tower to help him complete his plan, he learned of their arrival from the future.

And the escape part, I already countered. AGAIN. Darkrai used the dimensional hole to try escaping because he had literally just gotten his ass kicked by the combined powers of the players, who could defeat Dialga, and Cresselia, Darkrai's explicit equal. Thats easily enough evidence to say Darkrai was too physically weakened to escape the 3.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@Drago We have valid reasons of why we deny certain feats from Pokemon. For Digimon, I'm not 100% sure exactly why some people still do that up until this point but that's for a different topic.

It's not really an excuse, this is rather a common thing in fiction that characters capable of time traveling through sheer speed are always considered to be FTL minimum according to General Relativity and never infinite nor immeasurable due to how inaccurate the assumption of that claim is in many ways.

In some fictions they treat going FTL as being able to time travel.

On this wiki, time travelling with movement alone is immeasurable because it is in fact movement beyond linear time. However characters like Flash and Pre-Crisis Superman have it as a separate speed rating because it doesn't scale to their normal reactions/combat speed.

 

[Antvasima]

If it doesn't make sense to scale movement through time to regular speed it is listed separately, yes.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

@Drago

It's not really a point but more like my way of saying that Digimon shouldn't be further discussed in this thread.

When did I ever said these Pokemon gods don't have infinite speed? Idk where exactly did you even got that straw man from...

@Xerkser

1. I can understand the "moving through backward and moving forward through linear time via sheer speed simultaneously" part is immeasurable but you need to realize that if you're only moving backward through time (time travel) and that's it, then it would be safe to say that clearly you aren't immeasurable in any way, shape, or form. Also, from the looks of it, it appears to me that you easily misinterpret how the Note 5 requirement (what @Shadow quoted earlier) regarding immeasurable states what is expected for the character to do. The Note 5 requirement suggests the character to do both things at once but they only did one of those things (or can only do one of them at a time) since Darkrai explicitly stated this: "This dimensional hole can take me to the future...or the past"

Keyword: or, it never said "and" or "both." Reminder: Be aware that using time portals ("dimensional holes") is an indication of a limitation of Darkrai's speed since he needs to time travel using this method without using his own speed to do it himself and using time portals is basically like using a time machine, so think of it that way. You must have missed the "simulantaneously by using sheer speed alone" part when you claimed that, it was never implied or intended to refer Nigh-Omnipresence.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

@Xerkser

2. Somehow attacking someone by using a time portal ("dimensional hole") which works exactly like a time machine you appear out of and simply attacking someone with your speed (I mean how on Earth would a Grovyle be able to react to that if we assume the "this is immeasurable because he used his speed to attack them" faulty logic (don't take that the wrong way but this is exactly what you tried to claim earlier) is true exactly? He can't.) is immeasurable, despite of the number of flaws this assumption has.

3. Which I just said but mines was rather in a form of conclusion from the heavy implications from the scans you provided.

Not exactly, Darkrai still had enough energy to escape but not in time due to Palkia showing up & BFR him by banishing him somewhere at the precise moment he tried to travel through time.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

@Shadow

Once again, literally all fictions do that. Characters capable of time traveling through sheer speed would need to be moving FTL at bare minimum, not infinite or immeasurable as that would simply mean completely ignoring how General Relativity basically works in regards to this.

Its more like they aren't casually at this level of speed and that they ran through & escaped outside the concept of time (which wouldn't be considered time travel anymore at that point now, would it?), making their max speed infinite, not immeasurable since Wally West fastest feat was running to the end of the universe and the end of time (another way of saying that he managed physically run outside of time which is a no-brainer but you must have already knew that). Also, I suggest not arguing this to defend his immeasurable speed rating as our Timeless Void Standards (I'm referring to only the section regarding infinite speed) says otherwise or you will end up basically arguing against that section of the standards too.

For Superman (Pre-Crisis), he escaped the Bonds of Infinity to reach Supergirl, which means he managed to exist outside of time itself (because "Infinity" is a form of time ofc) and another scan continuing this is him reaching infinite not immeasurable, speeds straight towards Supergirl but managed to hit Spectre with this level of speed by mistake (although, the Spectre was unaffected by this) due to the Spectre stopping PC Superman with his legit immeasurable speed & caused PC Superman to come to a halt.

Edit: The last 2 paragraphs are used to disprove their immeasurable speed ratings, not for derailing upon mentioning a new topic, so there's no confusion about it here.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@Magi Hussie General Relativity also states that any object approaching the speed of light gains infinite mass. Guess what though? Plenty of fiction doesn't follow this.

I suggest making a CRT if you don't agree with their immeasurable ratings.