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For now, I also agree with Cal
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Pokemon: God Tiers Ability Revisions
- Thread starter Assaltwaffle
- Start date
- Status
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I looked for PokeDex description in Japanese to help but I didn't found new ones that matters here. I found a new ability if he doesn't have it though. Apparently he created space using a thousand arms. He should have limited Duplication for duplicating his arm to the thousands.
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That is Body Control, that I think he already has
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I dont think they ean with literally 1000 arms.
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Yet Sun Wukong did the similar thing and it was multiplication? And you can't create new stuffs in your body just because you can manipulate it.Kirbyelmejor said:
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Arceus's 1000 arms are the Unown
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Wait for TLoZ
I hope you're referring to the 3-A and 4-A upgrades
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About the Bonds that Transcend Time & Space : They explained in the movie that the only weakness to the Hearts is a heart with a lot of darkness in it. It is why Giratina could even overpower it . It was not because he was "stronger" than that psychic ability. Even then that is contradicted heavily considering Damos could overpower Arceus using it, who had the Mind Plate & Soul Plate amping it , & a lot of darkness in his heart when he was attacked.
@Kep Wait... Hold up. if the Unown are the 1000 Arms shouldn't they be upgraded to Low 2-C or even 2-B considering the arms were described as shaping the Pokemon Universe ? It also supports them being somewhat comparable the the Creation Trio at times ?
@Kep Wait... Hold up. if the Unown are the 1000 Arms shouldn't they be upgraded to Low 2-C or even 2-B considering the arms were described as shaping the Pokemon Universe ? It also supports them being somewhat comparable the the Creation Trio at times ?
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Wait, then the Unowns preceded the space? And also Unowns are basically mystical plot points in various movies and TV episodes, being kind of a God's text or something like that, which is ironic because they are pieces of shit in game. Low 2-C for them?Kepekley23 said:
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Unown are weird, even for me.
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@Existential
The Unown individually has a chance to be Likely Low 2-C (because it have a bit of 4-D power), but they in groups of several think it makes sense to be 2-B.
The Unown individually has a chance to be Likely Low 2-C (because it have a bit of 4-D power), but they in groups of several think it makes sense to be 2-B.
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That's exactly what I was thinking. However, If they were used to shape the Pokemon Universe by Arceus , I believe a ' Possibly 2-B ' for them period should work considering how high-end 2-B the Pokemon Universe is. Plus, they really shouldn't be that much weaker than the Creation Trio even individually based on their importance in the hierarchy.
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Well, I agree with you on everything, except that individually they are not weaker than the Trio Creation, they individually have a bit of 4-D power, so I think it makes sense to put them individually as Likely Low 2-C, but with groups of several Unown think 2-B makes sense.
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The problem is that a bit of 4-D power can mean anything. 4-D is a very high tier, encompassing Low 2-C to 2-A. So having a bit of 4-D power can make you 2-B because in comparison to 2-A, it is technically a bit of 4-D power. At least that's how I see it.
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I know the show is full of PIS, but if Unown were 2B as a pack, how come theyre defeated by Ash and Dawn's Pokemon?
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Because power of trust and friendship. And also Ash has type 1 Immortality.
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I agree with Cal's reasoning
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They were defeated in the movie because the Entei was shown to break the barrier and weaken them long enough to finish the off. So Molly's Entei is 2-B... Top kek. Also Molly had far more Unown with her than Arceus did when he remade Dialga & Palkia ( by like 10+ more of them ) . It would also make Molly the 2nd Strongest Movie Antagonist... Right after the Hax of Unsealed Hoopa and before Arceus.
Dang Am I happy she didn't join the team offically with those Unown... She'd be so OP now.
Dang Am I happy she didn't join the team offically with those Unown... She'd be so OP now.
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- Thread starter
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A lot of good stuff here. Let me reply to that which is still in contention.
@Cal
Conceptual Manipulation: In what way did Arceus manipulate the already existing concepts to create "another" Creation trio? The CT are their concepts; how could Arceus create another set? Either way it still isn't the offensive concept manip that people use in VS debates.
Void Manipulation: I know they create a Void. That isn't enough. They create a void by obliterating space-time, not be manipulating an already existing Void. Like I said, the destruction they show is merely them using powers they already have, not an additional power.
Immortality: You kind of do need to go over this. Why are the CT immortal via godhood? Where does this godhood come from? What of Arceus' Type 9?
Soul Manipulation: The crux of all the soul manipulation arguments is that that LT created the souls of the Multiverse. Where is your evidence for this? They embody emotion, will, and knowledge, and thus let the Multiverse have these qualities; when have they ever been stated to create literal souls?
Causality: Can we get the textdump of this? Also unless the entire plot of Arceus and the Jewel of Life was wrong, the Pokemon have directly shown follow causal progression.
"Spirit" Destruction: Your interpretation is as much of an interpretation as mine. Only difference is your interpretation gives them a crazy ability they never show otherwise. If they had Thisbe ability they would be the counter to the Lake Trio, not the other way around. This was a universe bust that achieved what Cyrus wanted.
Immeasurable: It completely depends what the abstract shows. For Dialga it is completely contrary to what is shown. Dialga isn't higher-D and he isn't "beyond time". I don't even know where that "travels beyond time" comes from.
Arceus
Non-Corp: No, this is your interpretation. You decided that the "Orginal Spirit" is some kind of non-corporeal force that Arceus is an avatar of. As far as I am aware there is zero evidence for this and such an assumption is purely speculation. Show me one time where Arceus has appeared non-corporeal.
Dream Manip: I can see the implications here, but it should be "likely" since this isn't confirmed.
All Attacks: So because he used attacks from his plate rulings he knows every attack? This is stretching and you know it, Cal. Also no, Arceus didn't create the concept of types. He created the fundamental framework of the Multiverse that allows for types.
Magnetism Manipulation: I can make a magnet. That doesn't give me magnetism manipulation. The way he made it matters, and we don't know that.
Mind Manipulation: Are the Lake Trio truly facets of Arceus? They are creations, but I have never seen evidence of them being outright factors. Even if they are, he wouldn't use this in-character.
Physics Manipulation: The Distortion World has weird physics. This does not mean that Arceus can manipulate the physics of an already-established universe.
Incorporeal Attacks: Why doesn't Furure Sight grant this? If it does it should be explained that Future Sight grants this.
Creation Trio
Heal Block: Its limits should still be stated. If you don't say it caps at High-Mid and say "any healing or Regenerationn" it sounds like this attack has no limits.
Non-Corporeality: And ghost types are true non-corporeals since when? They have selective intangibility at best. If ghosts were truly non-corporeal every Pokemon has the ability to hit all non-corporeals. They don't; ghost types are just weird.
Resistance to Mind: OK, that I can get behind. I'm OK with them having mind resistance for the Lake Trio, but not the Red Chains.
Distortion World: Sorry if my point was obscure here. I wasn't challenging the ability, I was pointing out that the evidence is garbage for it. It's just Dialga glowing.
Lake Trio
Most of this I'm OK with, their pages just need this explanation.
I still want the citation for them creating the souls of the Multiverse.
Also information isn't directly knowledge. Knowledge is knowing, and knowing is a mix of active cognition and memory: neither of which is raw information. Information manipulation is extremely powerful since you could essentially alter fundamental aspects of information, similar to Law/Concept manip.
Also I personally believe that "spirit" is all three LT's aspects.
@Cal
Conceptual Manipulation: In what way did Arceus manipulate the already existing concepts to create "another" Creation trio? The CT are their concepts; how could Arceus create another set? Either way it still isn't the offensive concept manip that people use in VS debates.
Void Manipulation: I know they create a Void. That isn't enough. They create a void by obliterating space-time, not be manipulating an already existing Void. Like I said, the destruction they show is merely them using powers they already have, not an additional power.
Immortality: You kind of do need to go over this. Why are the CT immortal via godhood? Where does this godhood come from? What of Arceus' Type 9?
Soul Manipulation: The crux of all the soul manipulation arguments is that that LT created the souls of the Multiverse. Where is your evidence for this? They embody emotion, will, and knowledge, and thus let the Multiverse have these qualities; when have they ever been stated to create literal souls?
Causality: Can we get the textdump of this? Also unless the entire plot of Arceus and the Jewel of Life was wrong, the Pokemon have directly shown follow causal progression.
"Spirit" Destruction: Your interpretation is as much of an interpretation as mine. Only difference is your interpretation gives them a crazy ability they never show otherwise. If they had Thisbe ability they would be the counter to the Lake Trio, not the other way around. This was a universe bust that achieved what Cyrus wanted.
Immeasurable: It completely depends what the abstract shows. For Dialga it is completely contrary to what is shown. Dialga isn't higher-D and he isn't "beyond time". I don't even know where that "travels beyond time" comes from.
Arceus
Non-Corp: No, this is your interpretation. You decided that the "Orginal Spirit" is some kind of non-corporeal force that Arceus is an avatar of. As far as I am aware there is zero evidence for this and such an assumption is purely speculation. Show me one time where Arceus has appeared non-corporeal.
Dream Manip: I can see the implications here, but it should be "likely" since this isn't confirmed.
All Attacks: So because he used attacks from his plate rulings he knows every attack? This is stretching and you know it, Cal. Also no, Arceus didn't create the concept of types. He created the fundamental framework of the Multiverse that allows for types.
Magnetism Manipulation: I can make a magnet. That doesn't give me magnetism manipulation. The way he made it matters, and we don't know that.
Mind Manipulation: Are the Lake Trio truly facets of Arceus? They are creations, but I have never seen evidence of them being outright factors. Even if they are, he wouldn't use this in-character.
Physics Manipulation: The Distortion World has weird physics. This does not mean that Arceus can manipulate the physics of an already-established universe.
Incorporeal Attacks: Why doesn't Furure Sight grant this? If it does it should be explained that Future Sight grants this.
Creation Trio
Heal Block: Its limits should still be stated. If you don't say it caps at High-Mid and say "any healing or Regenerationn" it sounds like this attack has no limits.
Non-Corporeality: And ghost types are true non-corporeals since when? They have selective intangibility at best. If ghosts were truly non-corporeal every Pokemon has the ability to hit all non-corporeals. They don't; ghost types are just weird.
Resistance to Mind: OK, that I can get behind. I'm OK with them having mind resistance for the Lake Trio, but not the Red Chains.
Distortion World: Sorry if my point was obscure here. I wasn't challenging the ability, I was pointing out that the evidence is garbage for it. It's just Dialga glowing.
Lake Trio
Most of this I'm OK with, their pages just need this explanation.
I still want the citation for them creating the souls of the Multiverse.
Also information isn't directly knowledge. Knowledge is knowing, and knowing is a mix of active cognition and memory: neither of which is raw information. Information manipulation is extremely powerful since you could essentially alter fundamental aspects of information, similar to Law/Concept manip.
Also I personally believe that "spirit" is all three LT's aspects.
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we have saw that there are more than 1000 unown, in fact there is a countless number of unowns
As seen here,
i think they should remain Tier unknown ...
untill we get the gen 4 remakes ovo
As seen here,
i think they should remain Tier unknown ...
untill we get the gen 4 remakes ovo
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"Also unless the entire plot of Arceus and the Jewel of Life was wrong..."
It is
It is
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Can we seriously not write off every inconsistency with the CT and Arceus as "Lol PIS"? It's really annoying and a lazy way of getting out of it.
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Getting annoyed at the situation doesn't make pretty much every part of that movie any less of an inconsistent mess.
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You can't write off the entire plot of the movie as PIS.
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That makes them even more 2-B if they are indeed a countless number though. Also... Mewtwo beating the Unown is PIS btw.
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"Mewtwo beating the Unown is PIS"
This is exactly what I mean.
Every inconsistency in Pokemon just gets written off as "Lol PIS". It's extremely annoying.
Just accept the inconsistency, don't negate it under the shield of PIS.
This is exactly what I mean.
Every inconsistency in Pokemon just gets written off as "Lol PIS". It's extremely annoying.
Just accept the inconsistency, don't negate it under the shield of PIS.
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I personally don't think the Unown are tier 2, btw.
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.... Sorry. "Inconsistency" is much better wording here.
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I don't see the difference.
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I also don't want to go through the whole "Tier 2 Unown" thing.The real cal howard said:
Besides, Unknown Unown is way too fitting. ovo
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I also don't think the Unown are Tier 2. Maybe when they are being used by Arceus specifically, but that isn't applicable.
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I think Unown should be another CRT, although I do think they're 2-B
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A couple of not completely serious thoughts
"All Attacks: So because he used attacks from his plate rulings he knows every attack? This is stretching and you know it, Cal. Also no, Arceus didn't create the concept of types. He created the fundamental framework of the Multiverse that allows for types."
Can't we just say: "Arceus created every pokemon, so he technically created their moves as well"?
"Immortality: You kind of do need to go over this. Why are the CT immortal via godhood? Where does this godhood come from? What of Arceus' Type 9?"
99.9% sure the whole "created the universe from chaos etc. etc." would already describe him as a god as it's pretty much identical to old creation myths in human history. And the protagonist of these stories is always a god. Not sure why the CT has it though. Type 9 comes from the original spirit, but I don't remember the quote.
"Magnetism Manipulation: I can make a magnet. That doesn't give me magnetism manipulation. The way he made it matters, and we don't know that."
Unless you want to argue that Arceus created an industry of magnets, it would make sense he created it with its own power, like he did with everything else in the multiverse.
Remember, these are just some not-completely-serious thoughts waiting for Cal.
"All Attacks: So because he used attacks from his plate rulings he knows every attack? This is stretching and you know it, Cal. Also no, Arceus didn't create the concept of types. He created the fundamental framework of the Multiverse that allows for types."
Can't we just say: "Arceus created every pokemon, so he technically created their moves as well"?
"Immortality: You kind of do need to go over this. Why are the CT immortal via godhood? Where does this godhood come from? What of Arceus' Type 9?"
99.9% sure the whole "created the universe from chaos etc. etc." would already describe him as a god as it's pretty much identical to old creation myths in human history. And the protagonist of these stories is always a god. Not sure why the CT has it though. Type 9 comes from the original spirit, but I don't remember the quote.
"Magnetism Manipulation: I can make a magnet. That doesn't give me magnetism manipulation. The way he made it matters, and we don't know that."
Unless you want to argue that Arceus created an industry of magnets, it would make sense he created it with its own power, like he did with everything else in the multiverse.
Remember, these are just some not-completely-serious thoughts waiting for Cal.
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I'm gonna wait for Cal to respond to what Assault replied, plus ill make a reply later, but writing inconsistency from the movie off as PIS isn't as annoying as you think and this was discussed and clarified before.
Literally every moment in that movie is PIS ridden. 98% of it as the absolute least anyway.
Also @Assault, you should read the already popular lore on the LT. Its outright stated they bring forth spirit after Arceus creates them.
Literally every moment in that movie is PIS ridden. 98% of it as the absolute least anyway.
Also @Assault, you should read the already popular lore on the LT. Its outright stated they bring forth spirit after Arceus creates them.
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It isn't PIS. It's a case of the writers portraying the God Tiers as vastly weaker than they are in their peak depictions. It's a low end, it happens.
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>Non-Corp
>All Attacks
>Mind Manipulation
"I learned many things on my journey. Would you like to hear them?
The way I see it, our world began when the spirit within people was born.
When that spirit came to be, there followed awareness about the world.
Within the newborn spirit, time and space were intertwined as one.
People and Pokémon, too, were but the same presence.
As I understand it, people and Pokémon shared the spirit and awareness.
They should have understood and accepted each other then.
Because they shared the same spirit, people and Pokémon intermingled.
People took the place of Pokémon, and the opposite also held true.
That interpretation could give us an idea about how our world came to be.
A Pokémon is said to have shaped this world.
Could that Pokémon be the physical form of the original spirit?
Hmm... The spirit came to be, and from it, time and space were born...
That seems to point to Legendary Dialga, the Pokémon of time, and Palkia, the Pokémon of space...
And they lead back to Arceus, the Pokémon that made them arise.
Oh, there were also Plates, weren't there?
One Plate read "Three beings were born to bind time and space."
Those three beings I read to mean the three Pokémon of the lakes. It's about Uxie, Mesprit, and Azelf.
The myth describes how they gave spirit to the world, shaping it.
But it all starts with Arceus, the first. It is known as the Original One."
>All Attacks
>Mind Manipulation
"I learned many things on my journey. Would you like to hear them?
The way I see it, our world began when the spirit within people was born.
When that spirit came to be, there followed awareness about the world.
Within the newborn spirit, time and space were intertwined as one.
People and Pokémon, too, were but the same presence.
As I understand it, people and Pokémon shared the spirit and awareness.
They should have understood and accepted each other then.
Because they shared the same spirit, people and Pokémon intermingled.
People took the place of Pokémon, and the opposite also held true.
That interpretation could give us an idea about how our world came to be.
A Pokémon is said to have shaped this world.
Could that Pokémon be the physical form of the original spirit?
Hmm... The spirit came to be, and from it, time and space were born...
That seems to point to Legendary Dialga, the Pokémon of time, and Palkia, the Pokémon of space...
And they lead back to Arceus, the Pokémon that made them arise.
Oh, there were also Plates, weren't there?
One Plate read "Three beings were born to bind time and space."
Those three beings I read to mean the three Pokémon of the lakes. It's about Uxie, Mesprit, and Azelf.
The myth describes how they gave spirit to the world, shaping it.
But it all starts with Arceus, the first. It is known as the Original One."
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Thats what PIS would be though? Still, if not all of it Kep, surely most of it as the minimum.Kepekley23 said:
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Just noticed this so ill address it.TriforcePower1 said:
As someone who made the thread on this that got the types being overall accepted as conceptual manipulation in the first place, after 2 VERY big threads, this is wrong. And id highly reccomend you read it all through @Assault before trying to off it.
Also, I wouldnt use the word "stretching". Arceus knowing all moves was already widely accepted here because of the blogs made by TheMightyRegulator. All Cal did was make a thread to get it added in.
Thats it.
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