Pokemon FTL revision

[XXKINGXX69]

I realised we use this calc of Lycanroc to scale every fully evolved Pokemon to that level of FTL, and this feat from Ash's Greninja to scale every Mega Pokemon to 6x ftl.

This thread explained it. Its also discussed there that Lycanroc dodging a solar beam from a high tier legendary is either an outlier or Tapu Bulu was holding back (it was, I think). So if Bulu was holding back, we don't know how fast the Solar Beam would be. We can use other solar beam dodging feats instead. However, we need to find one performed by a Pokemon who isnt that much stronger or faster than a regular fully evolved Pokemon

First of all, that was Ash's Lycanroc. As a Rockruff, he could dodge Ash's Pikachu's thunderbolt, dodge a Fire Fang from Ash's Litten who can react to and dodge Ash's Pikachu's quick attack, and Rockruff moved at comparable speed to Ash's Pikachu using Quick Attack, who even without Quick Attack can blitz and move like a blur to Agatha's Gengar, dodge an Aqua Jet from a trained Clawitzer which is faster than a regular fully evolved Pokemon since its a priority move, dodge a lot of fully evolved Pokemon attacks, you know the usual. A slower Pikachu with Quick Attack can blitz Lysandre's Mega Gyarados and dodge his Hyper Beam, which is something Ash's Goodra can't even react and dodge.

Rockruff can also dodge a trained Probopass' Giga Impact. I literally haven't even gotten to any of his speed feats when he's a Lycanroc

Basically, we are scaling every fully evolved Pokemon to a Pokemon even mega evolved mons can't react to.

And for Ash Greninja, not every Ash Greninja is the same speed as one that Ash is commanding. A Pokemon's power correlates to the bond between a trainer and Pokemon.

Ash's base Greninja was already too fast for several Mega Pokemon, including Beedrill, Salamence and more. Alain's Charizard couldn't even see base Greninja move too. Alain's Charizard in base can already dodge a Mega Charizard Y's dragon tail. I haven't even gotten to Ash's Ash-Greninja's speed feats against Mega Pokemon yet, you aren't even ready for it

So Ash-Greninja being comparable in speed to every Mega Pokemon makes 0 sense.

My proposal is simple: We can use other light based dodging feats instead. However, we need to find one performed by a Pokemon who isnt that much stronger or faster than a regular fully evolved Pokemon. I dont even disagree with FTL fully evolved Pokemon. In the comments, I will list down some instances of light dodging feats for Pokemon and I can research just how fast these Pokemon are compared to fully evolved Pokemon. Feel free to provide feats I didnt mention.

If we don't find anything else, use this calc instead

Other calcs that should not be used

• Poliwrath's Relativistic calc - This Poliwrath is too fast for a trained Jynx. It also reacted to Deoxys' attack at the last second to block it. Third stage Pokemon = Deoxys in speed when?
• Empoleon Relativistic calc - This Empoleon is slower than but can react to Ash's Pikachu
• Staraptor Relativistic calc - Even as a staravia, it can dodge Ash's Pikachu's thunderbolt

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Some light dodging feats for pokemon

Iris and her Dragonite react to Druddigon's Flash Cannon after it is fired

Goh's Pinsir reacts to a Solar Beam after it is fired (Goh's Pinsir is likely a lot faster than fully evolved mons)

 

[FinePoint]

I am a strong believer in the idea that the bond between trainer and Pokémon is a direct and extremely varied amp.
Not only do you have the statement from Colress, but also countless examples of trained Pokémon being unreasonably strong.

If we can find a feat of a wild Pokémon reacting to Solar Beam that would be preferable, but I might settle for a very newly trained Pokémon or a trained Pokémon shown to be very comparable to wild Pokémon.

Ash-Greninja is often compared to a Mega by the fandom, but I don't believe there's any lore supporting this outside of it being the result of the bond between trainer and Pokémon. Isn't there examples of it being tagged by megas too, though?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Ash-Greninja is often compared to a Mega by the fandom, but I don't believe there's any lore supporting this outside of it being the result of the bond between trainer and Pokémon. Isn't there examples of it being tagged by megas too, though?

Ash's Greninja fought equally against Sawyer's Sceptile when both were in Base form, and overpowered him when Ash-Greninja fought Mega Sceptile, eventually one shotting him with a massive Water Shuriken

The only Mega Pokémon that overpowered Ash-Greninja so far was Alain's Mega Charizard X, and the only other examples I could see is Diantha's Mega Gardevoir, and Steven's Mega Metagross (exluding obvious stuff such as Mega Legendaries)

 

[FinePoint]

Ash's Greninja fought equally against Sawyer's Sceptile when both were in Base form, and overpowered him when Ash-Greninja fought Mega Sceptile, eventually one shotting him with a massive Water Shuriken

I mean fair enough, if Ash-Greninja consistently blitzes and destroys megas then scaling them to it does seem tenuous at best.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

I am a strong believer in the idea that the bond between trainer and Pokémon is a direct and extremely varied amp.
Not only do you have the statement from Colress, but also countless examples of trained Pokémon being unreasonably strong.

If we can find a feat of a wild Pokémon reacting to Solar Beam that would be preferable, but I might settle for a very newly trained Pokémon or a trained Pokémon shown to be very comparable to wild Pokémon.

Ash-Greninja is often compared to a Mega by the fandom, but I don't believe there's any lore supporting this outside of it being the result of the bond between trainer and Pokémon. Isn't there examples of it being tagged by megas too, though?

Those megas would just scale above regular megas, they are trained

Ash's Greninja fought equally against Sawyer's Sceptile when both were in Base form, and overpowered him when Ash-Greninja fought Mega Sceptile, eventually one shotting him with a massive Water Shuriken

Yeah, Sawyer's Sceptile should just be faster than average mega pokemon. Otherwise, we would get:

Mega Pokemon = Ash's Ash-Greninja > Fully Evolved Pokemon = Mega Pokemon

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I mean fair enough, if Ash-Greninja consistently blitzes and destroys megas then scaling them to it does seem tenuous at best.

Ash-Greninja is comparable to the Mega Boost. When Ash-Greninja blitzed other Megas, it's because Greninja was stronger in Base as well

Sceptile and Greninja's Base forms were equal in the Kalos League, and Ash-Greninja had an edge over Mega Sceptile when both powered up. Not a big one as it took Ash some time before Greninja could slip past Sceptile's defenses and score a win, especially when Frenzy Plant means he must recharge

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Mega Pokemon = Ash's Ash-Greninja > Fully Evolved Pokemon = Mega Pokemon

The boost that Ash-Greninja get is comparable to the boost in power Mega Evolution gets for non-legendaries

Because: Ash-Greninja > Sawyer's Mega Sceptile (by a little bit) >>>> Base Sceptile = Base Greninja

 

[XXKINGXX69]

The boost that Ash-Greninja get is comparable to the boost in power Mega Evolution gets for non-legendaries

And?

Ash-Greninja is comparable to the Mega Boost. When Ash-Greninja blitzed other Megas, it's because Greninja was stronger in Base as well

Sceptile and Greninja's Base forms were equal in the Kalos League, and Ash-Greninja had an edge over Mega Sceptile when both powered up. Not a big one as it took Ash some time before Greninja could slip past Sceptile's defenses and score a win, especially when Frenzy Plant means he must recharge

Yeah, Sawyer's Mega Sceptile >>> Average Mega Pokemon (Mega Pokemon can mega evolve without a trainer btw)

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

(Mega Pokemon can mega evolve without a trainer btw)

Except Legendaries, when this ever happened?

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Except Legendaries, when this ever happened?

Mystery Dungeon, Pokemon TCG, Pokemon Rumble Blast. The mega pokemon profiles we have are for untrained mega pokemon

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Bump

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Mystery Dungeon, Pokemon TCG, Pokemon Rumble Blast. The mega pokemon profiles we have are for untrained mega pokemon

Alright then, so yeah. Mega Sceptile and Ash-Greninja scale far above wild Megas

 

[GyroNutz]

We use Golem's calc for FTL scaling, iirc Ash-Greninja's speed feat is only for random legendaries to upscale from.

 

[Arceus0x]

I am also working on a FTL calc for an untrained Pinsir which is higher into SoL than before

 

[XXKINGXX69]

I am also working on a FTL calc for an untrained Pinsir which is higher into SoL than before

Goh's Pokemon even if untrained are faster and stronger than average pokemon

We use Golem's calc for FTL scaling, iirc Ash-Greninja's speed feat is only for random legendaries to upscale from.

We use Ash Greninja for megas too. No reason for legendaries to upscale from Ash's Greninja if he's around the speed of Alain's Charizard, if not faster. Same for Pikachu who reacts to legendaries all the time

 

[Arceus0x]

Goh's Pokemon even if untrained are faster and stronger than average pokemon

no evidence of them being too many times faster. Your claim is based on the flawed assumption that all pokemon with a trainer are superior to wild pokmeon.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

no evidence of them being too many times faster. Your claim is based on the flawed assumption that all pokemon with a trainer are superior to wild pokmeon.

That is not a flawed assumption, its literally stated. A pokemon can multiply their power many times if they are fighting to protect someone, which is what Goh's Pinsir did. His mantyke which was untrained can dodge a Beartic's ice shard, and dodge a Machamp's attack.

 

[Arceus0x]

That is not a flawed assumption, its literally stated. A pokemon can multiply their power many times if they are fighting to protect someone, which is what Goh's Pinsir did. His mantyke which was untrained can dodge a Beartic's ice shard, and dodge a Machamp's attack.

pokemon dodging attacks from fully evolved pokemon is a classic thing that is considered an outlier by most and doesn't change anything.

Also you took the two screenshots out of context. But first let me just say that it says strength and power, not speed. Speed =/= power or strength, thus the argument is invalid.
Now the context
-First screenshot is in a game where fighting overtime with your pokemon can build up a friendship and pokemon begin landing critical hits and surviving one-shots and resisting status effects due to friendship. The situation is very different from what we're shown here.
-Second screenshot is Ash fighting with an elite four member using a Farfetchd he trained hard which is now protecting him. Completely different story, no speed mentioned.

Now let's look at the Pinsir:
-Only loves Heracross, hasn't shown interest in Goh
-Was never trained once by Goh, it sits there and picks up flowers half the time
-Protected its loved one, not Goh

Overall there's no bond to speak of and catching something in a pokeball doesn't automatically give you a super bond and make your pokemon turn super sayian all of a sudden. Your argument is indeed flawed.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

pokemon dodging attacks from fully evolved pokemon is a classic thing that is considered an outlier by most and doesn't change anything.

Also you took the two screenshots out of context. But first let me just say that it says strength and power, not speed. Speed =/= power or strength, thus the argument is invalid.
Now the context
-First screenshot is in a game where fighting overtime with your pokemon can build up a friendship and pokemon begin landing critical hits and surviving one-shots and resisting status effects due to friendship. The situation is very different from what we're shown here.
-Second screenshot is Ash fighting with an elite four member using a Farfetchd he trained hard which is now protecting him. Completely different story, no speed mentioned.

Now let's look at the Pinsir:
-Only loves Heracross, hasn't shown interest in Goh
-Was never trained once by Goh, it sits there and picks up flowers half the time
-Protected its loved one, not Goh

Overall there's no bond to speak of and catching something in a pokeball doesn't automatically give you a super bond and make your pokemon turn super sayian all of a sudden. Your argument is indeed flawed.

Prove its an outlier

The game is still canon though, and Pinsir did care about and like Goh. You also didn't even prove why the mantyke feat is an outlier, prove it or Im reporting

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

The game is still canon though, and Pinsir did care about and like Goh. You also didn't even prove why the mantyke feat is an outlier,

It's an outlier because it's far above anything else Mantyke has ever shown, as well as the feats for Pokemon at Mantyke's level are cosistently way lower

prove it or Im reporting

Chill down and fast. He did nothing to you that is worth reporting

 

[Arceus0x]

Prove its an outlier

The game is still canon though, and Pinsir did care about and like Goh. You also didn't even prove why the mantyke feat is an outlier

Mantyke is a pre-evolution. He's never been shown to be in a battle or trained. This is a common occurrence in the anime where a pokemon can fight another pokemon who is an evolution or two higher than they are. it is a common thing that happens and if it wasn't considered an outlier then every pokemon would be High 7-A or higher be it a cleffa or a tyranitar.

Your statement about Pinsir liking and caring about Goh not only is not proven but it is also pointless. Pokemon and Trainers have grown through overcoming challenges together and they've grown stronger specifically via battles. For example, Serena's pokemon are mostly non-fully evolved despite loving her. They are not too strong and have never been shown to be truly good in combat. However when Eevee had to protect Serena in combat it evolved. This proves that whatever point your making even if true would only work if a pokemon has been trained thoroughly for lots of time in direct combat. Thus Pinsir isn't suddenly X amount of times stronger because it has a trainer that it may potentially like, cause that would be dumb af.

You also didn't counter my points. I never said the game wasn't canon, all i said that the case there is different from the case here.

prove it or Im reporting

Lmao

 

[GyroNutz]

We use Ash Greninja for megas too. No reason for legendaries to upscale from Ash's Greninja if he's around the speed of Alain's Charizard, if not faster. Same for Pikachu who reacts to legendaries all the time

Which megas?

Also, none of Ash Greninja, Alain's Charizard or Ash's Pikachu are legendary tier, at least not consistently.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Which megas?

Also, none of Ash Greninja, Alain's Charizard or Ash's Pikachu are legendary tier, at least not consistently.

Alain's Charizard was able to dodge attacks from Primal Groudon and Kyogre, even though he lost when their attack hit him. Charuzard also stopped a rush from 50% Zygarde. Pikachu's Z-Move finished off Guzzlord on two seperate occasions and overpowered Tapu Koko's Guardian of Alola, and Ash-Greninja fought Charizard on nearly equal terms in the League, with Charizard only barely managing to overpower Greninja

 

[CloverDragon03]

We already have another FTL feat in the form of a recalc of Golem's dodging feat that used to be Relativistic+

 

[XXKINGXX69]

It's an outlier because it's far above anything else Mantyke has ever shown, as well as the feats for Pokemon at Mantyke's level are cosistently way lower

Chill down and fast. He did nothing to you that is worth reporting

What else has mantyke shown? What Pokemon are on the level of Goh's Mantyke?

Mantyke is a pre-evolution. He's never been shown to be in a battle or trained. This is a common occurrence in the anime where a pokemon can fight another pokemon who is an evolution or two higher than they are. it is a common thing that happens and if it wasn't considered an outlier then every pokemon would be High 7-A or higher be it a cleffa or a tyranitar.

Your statement about Pinsir liking and caring about Goh not only is not proven but it is also pointless. Pokemon and Trainers have grown through overcoming challenges together and they've grown stronger specifically via battles. For example, Serena's pokemon are mostly non-fully evolved despite loving her. They are not too strong and have never been shown to be truly good in combat. However when Eevee had to protect Serena in combat it evolved. This proves that whatever point your making even if true would only work if a pokemon has been trained thoroughly for lots of time in direct combat. Thus Pinsir isn't suddenly X amount of times stronger because it has a trainer that it may potentially like, cause that would be dumb af.

You also didn't counter my points. I never said the game wasn't canon, all i said that the case there is different from the case here.


Lmao

Post scans of it being a common thing in the anime. This is a trainer owned Pinsir and Mantyke who gets powered by the bond between him and Goh

They're not fully evolved, but that doesnt mean they don't scale to fully evolved Pokemon

Like Serena's Pancham for example can tag and damage Team Rocket's Inkay who can dodge Ash's Pikachu's quick attack. He can also knock away team rocket's Pumpkaboo who can one shot Korrina's Lucario

Prove that the case is different in the anime, with scans

Which megas?

Also, none of Ash Greninja, Alain's Charizard or Ash's Pikachu are legendary tier, at least not consistently.

All of the megas. Alain's Charizard can knock back 50% Zygarde even though it resists the attack a lot, and in mega form, is on par with Steven's Mega Metagross who can survive Primal Kyogre's attacks, and send primal kyogre flying with flash cannon. Oh and his mega charizard blocked Mega Metagross' flash cannon too. If you're going to say its inconsistent or an outlier, I'd like some scans too

We already have another FTL feat in the form of a recalc of Golem's dodging feat that used to be Relativistic+

We can replace the calc with that one

 

[Arceus0x]

You just posted examples of it yourself. There are many outliers where pokemon who aren't trained can fight pokemon who are trained.
You know what that means?
It means that a pokemon having a trainer doesn't automatically make it 10000x stronger than the other mons. Otherwise all wild pokemon wouldn't be feared and there would be no cases of Ghyrados obliterating towns and shiz.

Also let me just note that you are comparing Ash's hypertrained pikachu that has fought countless champiom tier pokemon to a pokemon that has not been trained in combat. You are literally showing us an outlier that constantly happens during the anime - pokemon far weaker shown to be equal to a pokemon far stronger despite being trained.
Cause what you're currently suggesting is that a Pancham that was barely trained is suddenly comparable in speed and power to a Pikachu trained through, at that time, 5 regions.
You are literally digging your own grave here.

Also let me tell you about Occam's razor. The concept of Occam's razor is that the simplest solution is in fact the correct one.
In this case believing that these are silly cartoony cases of authors not giving a damn about scaling is far more reasonable than assuming that every one of Goh's pokemon are suddenly magically peak tier pokemon just because they care about him.

I don't need to provide you with any proof. Besides you showing us the proof yourself in those scans, i have no reason to prove that a random mantyke that Goh caught is not suddenly 1000000x stronger than every other mantyke.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

You just posted examples of it yourself. There are many outliers where pokemon who aren't trained can fight pokemon who are trained.
You know what that means?
It means that a pokemon having a trainer doesn't automatically make it 10000x stronger than the other mons. Otherwise all wild pokemon wouldn't be feared and there would be no cases of Ghyrados obliterating towns and shiz.

Also let me just note that you are comparing Ash's hypertrained pikachu that has fought countless champiom tier pokemon to a pokemon that has not been trained in combat. You are literally showing us an outlier that constantly happens during the anime - pokemon far weaker shown to be equal to a pokemon far stronger despite being trained.
Cause what you're currently suggesting is that a Pancham that was barely trained is suddenly comparable in speed and power to a Pikachu trained through, at that time, 5 regions.
You are literally digging your own grave here.

Also let me tell you about Occam's razor. The concept of Occam's razor is that the simplest solution is in fact the correct one.
In this case believing that these are silly cartoony cases of authors not giving a damn about scaling is far more reasonable than assuming that every one of Goh's pokemon are suddenly magically peak tier pokemon just because they care about him.

I don't need to provide you with any proof. Besides you showing us the proof yourself in those scans, i have no reason to prove that a random mantyke that Goh caught is not suddenly 1000000x stronger than every other mantyke.

Gyarados obliterated towns in the past. Name examples of untrained pokemon fighting trained pokemon. Scans too, if you will

Serena's Pancham has been trained dude, stop making stuff up. There's also nothing about it that's an outlier, the power of trainer owned Pokemon varies drastically

Occam's razor is using the explanation with the least amount of wild assumptions. Assuming the author doesnt care about scaling (Which is irrelevant because an author is just as reliable as any reader), is a more wild assumption than something that is actually explained by the series

I don't need to provide you with any proof.

I'll take that as a concession and agreement then, since you keep shifting burden of proof

i have no reason to prove that a random mantyke that Goh caught is not suddenly 1000000x stronger than every other mantyke

I literally provided 2 scans which prove it, which makes my interpretation infinitely more reliable than your argument from incredulity. Every single thing you've said in this thread is nothing more than "outlier" "sounds ridiculous" with no scans and "I am too delusional to believe that actual evidence is more reliable than my headcanon"

 

[Arceus0x]

Name examples of untrained pokemon fighting trained pokemon. Scans too, if you will

Scorbunny clowned on Pikachu for an entire episode. Serena's pokemon who were trained for contests and not combat defeated many strong trained pokemon. Snivy defeating pikachu, who, even though weakened, still had access to many of his attacks. A trio of wild ducklets clowning on pikachu in the "dancing with the ducklet trio" episode.
This happens constantly and i don't even need scans for most of these since i know you've watched the anime.

Gyarados obliterated towns in the past.

Doesn't change anything

Serena's Pancham has been trained dude, stop making stuff up.

It was trained for contests and at best slightly in battles yet you are comparing it to a pikachu that's been trained for countless days against super powerful pokemon.

There's also nothing about it that's an outlier, the power of trainer owned Pokemon varies drastically

tHe pOWeR oF a tRAIneR vArIeS drAsTicALly
this changes nothing. You're not going to explain away untrained pokemon harming pokemon who've been trained for countless days with a "varies drastically" because there is no such correlation. Its all simple. A pokemon trained for long periods of time in combat becomes physically stronger and usually faster. A pokemon who hasn't been trained that way will not be of a comparable strength. This explains two things. One, the moments when an untrained pokemon harms a highly trained pokemon are outliers, two, the gap that harsh training does isn't big enough to be immune to their attacks by being stronger. Both answers counter your point in its entirety

Assuming the author doesnt care about scaling (Which is irrelevant because an author is just as reliable as any reader)

The author is literally the creator of the series, he is far more reliable than any reader since he is the one who wrote the story. He knows the stories nuances and specifics thus he is indeed the most reliable until he contradicts himself. What drugs are you on? Fried vitamin gummies?

is a more wild assumption than something that is actually explained by the series

except for the fact that its literally training with a trainer that makes your pokemon reach their true power, not some magical thing that makes your pokemon 1000x stronger than what they used to be. The game training and the anime training are two completely different things and in the games. Also Coloress is talking about Z-moves for the latter half of it, meaning that he isn't talking about some random powerup that pokemon get all of a sudden.

I'll take that as a concession and agreement then, since you keep shifting burden of proof

No, you should take this as the fact that i am tired of you asking for proof about obvious things that end up being meaningless because the moment when somebody comes in who isn't me, who isn't here to listen to any of the stuff you're spitting, they'll call out your bs and will listen to a more reasonable decision, one that doesn't rely on the leap in logic that training a pokemon for contest make them as strong as a pokemon who's been trained for ages.

I literally provided 2 scans which prove it, which makes my interpretation infinitely more reliable than your argument from incredulity. Every single thing you've said in this thread is nothing more than "outlier" "sounds ridiculous" with no scans and "I am too delusional to believe that actual evidence is more reliable than my headcanon"

Oh i am delusional now? OH HOH! Let's look at your logic then, your logic that has the consistency of a scrambled egg thrown on a sidewalk and stomped on.

-You believe that a pokemon caring even a little bit for a trainer makes it many times stronger than an average pokemon because of one scan that talks about a pokemon training for combat
-You say that a pancham trained for contests and slightly for combat is as strong as a Pikachu who has gone up against elite four members, battle frontier brains ect. and has been trained for months
-You watch the pokemon anime and yet you seem to fail to grasp the fact that countless pokemon end up hurting other pokemon who are a lot more trained than them and you assume that those pokemon are suddenly tons of times stronger than their wild counterpart for the simple reason they have a trainer
-You say that every one of Goh's pokemon is super strong compared to the average pokemon because they are owned by goh and you just assume that they care for him and you assume that that suddenly makes them thousands of times stronger.

This is your logic. Even if my arguments were arguments from incredulity they are far more reasonable than your arguments which come from you trying to twist pokemon logic in ways that suit your assumptions and understanding of pokemon scaling.

At this point you've made tons of unreasonable and daft arguments and you've insulted my intelligence as well.
So here's what will happen.
I will make the pinsir calc, ill make a crt, ill call in many mods and supporters and they'll evaluate it. If they chose to believe your arguments over mine then I will finish my buisiness and i'll leave this wiki because i'll be very disappointed that they'd chose your twisted logic over my logic which relies on something commonly accepted, that being Pokemon being filled with countless outliers.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Scorbunny clowned on Pikachu for an entire episode. Serena's pokemon who were trained for contests and not combat defeated many strong trained pokemon. Snivy defeating pikachu, who, even though weakened, still had access to many of his attacks. A trio of wild ducklets clowning on pikachu in the "dancing with the ducklet trio" episode.
This happens constantly and i don't even need scans for most of these since i know you've watched the anime.

Doesn't change anything

It was trained for contests and at best slightly in battles yet you are comparing it to a pikachu that's been trained for countless days against super powerful pokemon.

tHe pOWeR oF a tRAIneR vArIeS drAsTicALly
this changes nothing. You're not going to explain away untrained pokemon harming pokemon who've been trained for countless days with a "varies drastically" because there is no such correlation. Its all simple. A pokemon trained for long periods of time in combat becomes physically stronger and usually faster. A pokemon who hasn't been trained that way will not be of a comparable strength. This explains two things. One, the moments when an untrained pokemon harms a highly trained pokemon are outliers, two, the gap that harsh training does isn't big enough to be immune to their attacks by being stronger. Both answers counter your point in its entirety

The author is literally the creator of the series, he is far more reliable than any reader since he is the one who wrote the story. He knows the stories nuances and specifics thus he is indeed the most reliable until he contradicts himself. What drugs are you on? Fried vitamin gummies?

except for the fact that its literally training with a trainer that makes your pokemon reach their true power, not some magical thing that makes your pokemon 1000x stronger than what they used to be. The game training and the anime training are two completely different things and in the games. Also Coloress is talking about Z-moves for the latter half of it, meaning that he isn't talking about some random powerup that pokemon get all of a sudden.

No, you should take this as the fact that i am tired of you asking for proof about obvious things that end up being meaningless because the moment when somebody comes in who isn't me, who isn't here to listen to any of the stuff you're spitting, they'll call out your bs and will listen to a more reasonable decision, one that doesn't rely on the leap in logic that training a pokemon for contest make them as strong as a pokemon who's been trained for ages.

Oh i am delusional now? OH HOH! Let's look at your logic then, your logic that has the consistency of a scrambled egg thrown on a sidewalk and stomped on.

-You believe that a pokemon caring even a little bit for a trainer makes it many times stronger than an average pokemon because of one scan that talks about a pokemon training for combat
-You say that a pancham trained for contests and slightly for combat is as strong as a Pikachu who has gone up against elite four members, battle frontier brains ect. and has been trained for months
-You watch the pokemon anime and yet you seem to fail to grasp the fact that countless pokemon end up hurting other pokemon who are a lot more trained than them and you assume that those pokemon are suddenly tons of times stronger than their wild counterpart for the simple reason they have a trainer
-You say that every one of Goh's pokemon is super strong compared to the average pokemon because they are owned by goh and you just assume that they care for him and you assume that that suddenly makes them thousands of times stronger.

This is your logic. Even if my arguments were arguments from incredulity they are far more reasonable than your arguments which come from you trying to twist pokemon logic in ways that suit your assumptions and understanding of pokemon scaling.

At this point you've made tons of unreasonable and daft arguments and you've insulted my intelligence as well.
So here's what will happen.
I will make the pinsir calc, ill make a crt, ill call in many mods and supporters and they'll evaluate it. If they chose to believe your arguments over mine then I will finish my buisiness and i'll leave this wiki because i'll be very disappointed that they'd chose your twisted logic over my logic which relies on something commonly accepted, that being Pokemon being filled with countless outliers.

Show scans of Scorbunny doing that

Serena's Pokemon fights team rocket a lot, same with wild Pokemon. Pikachu was weakened by Zekrom against Snivy. Ash and his Pikachu hold back against wild Pokemon because he doesn't like harming them much, to the point where he's willing to take hits from other Pokemon to protect wild Pokemon. When his Pikachu got serious, his Pikachu one shotted the Ducklett, sending them flying.

One, the moments when an untrained pokemon harms a highly trained pokemon are outliers, two, the gap that harsh training does isn't big enough to be immune to their attacks by being stronger. Both answers counter your point in its entirety

I explained to you that a Pokemon being untrained has an actual reason to be a lot stronger than a wild Pokemon. Its because the full power of a Pokemon comes from their bond, which is why Dynamax can multiply a Pokemon's power. Mega Evolution also grants a significant amp, and its all because of the bond between a trainer and their Pokemon.

except for the fact that its literally training with a trainer that makes your pokemon reach their true power, not some magical thing that makes your pokemon 1000x stronger than what they used to be. The game training and the anime training are two completely different things and in the games.

Prove that training is more important than bonds. Why is it that mega evolution, z moves, and dynamax are all based more on bonds than training? Why do you think trained pokemon can't match the power of Ultra Beasts, but with the Z-Move's power of bonds, they can surpass even Ultra Necrozma?
In conclusion, bonds > training

The author is literally the creator of the series, he is far more reliable than any reader since he is the one who wrote the story. He knows the stories nuances and specifics thus he is indeed the most reliable until he contradicts himself. What drugs are you on? Fried vitamin gummies?

I can read a story a hundred times and become more reliable than the author. An author's interpretation is based on them reading their source material, and making an opinion, which is the same way a reader interprets text. Read this for more info

Doesn't change anything

We have no idea how the Gyarados did it. There are towns with no fully evolved pokemon trainers

You believe that a pokemon caring even a little bit for a trainer makes it many times stronger than an average pokemon because of one scan that talks about a pokemon training for combat

Yes because thats stated. I have a scan, you don't, so you're conceding

You say that a pancham trained for contests and slightly for combat is as strong as a Pikachu who has gone up against elite four members, battle frontier brains ect. and has been trained for months

Yes, because I have evidence that you failed to refute, so I'll take that as a concession

You watch the pokemon anime and yet you seem to fail to grasp the fact that countless pokemon end up hurting other pokemon who are a lot more trained than them and you assume that those pokemon are suddenly tons of times stronger than their wild counterpart for the simple reason they have a trainer

Yes, because of bonds

You say that every one of Goh's pokemon is super strong compared to the average pokemon because they are owned by goh and you just assume that they care for him and you assume that that suddenly makes them thousands of times stronger.

Absolutely, because Goh is not just a random trainer, but in the top 10 strongest characters in the entire verse (including legendary and mythical Pokemon, and I do believe that Goh's Raboot is several times stronger than Arceus)

I will make the pinsir calc, ill make a crt, ill call in many mods and supporters and they'll evaluate it. If they chose to believe your arguments over mine then I will finish my buisiness and i'll leave this wiki because i'll be very disappointed that they'd chose your twisted logic over my logic which relies on something commonly accepted, that being Pokemon being filled with countless outliers.

Carry on believing on your delusions then

 

[Arceus0x]

Show scans of Scorbunny doing that

Serena's Pokemon fights team rocket a lot, same with wild Pokemon. Pikachu was weakened by Zekrom against Snivy. Ash and his Pikachu hold back against wild Pokemon because he doesn't like harming them much, to the point where he's willing to take hits from other Pokemon to protect wild Pokemon. When his Pikachu got serious, his Pikachu one shotted the Ducklett, sending them flying.

Also the gif you just sent shows that they weren't even knocked out despite being 4x weak to electricity

I explained to you that a Pokemon being untrained has an actual reason to be a lot stronger than a wild Pokemon. Its because the full power of a Pokemon comes from their bond, which is why Dynamax can multiply a Pokemon's power. Mega Evolution also grants a significant amp, and its all because of the bond between a trainer and their Pokemon.

And? This is true, D-max and Mega evos do multiply the power. Doesn't prove why an untrained Pinsir is X amount times stronger than a wild one

Prove that training is more important than bonds. Why is it that mega evolution, z moves, and dynamax are all based more on bonds than training? Why do you think trained pokemon can't match the power of Ultra Beasts, but with the Z-Move's power of bonds, they can surpass even Ultra Necrozma?
In conclusion, bonds > training

1. In the games bonds are formed through training, that is how affection worked for 4 generations until you could boost it further by taking care of the pokemon
2. Mega evolution and Dynamax are reliant on Eternatus and key stones, not bonds. Bonds are simply what lets the pokemon and their trainer connect, they aren't what causes dynamax or mega evolution. Mewtwo can mega evolve without a trainer or a key stone, Ash couldn't g-max gengar without the g-max soup.

Bonds are formed through training and that still doesn't change the fact that a Pancham isn't comparable to Ash's pikachu as Ash and Pikachu have both a better bond and a better training regime. Even if we used your logic ash would still have an advantage and it would still be an outlier.

I can read a story a hundred times and become more reliable than the author. An author's interpretation is based on them reading their source material, and making an opinion, which is the same way a reader interprets text. Read this for more info

Yet the author is still in control of the story and we see that they don't care about making outliers. Either way i don't care too much about this point since it was just a statement. Children's shows don't care about making outliers, its simple as that.

We have no idea how the Gyarados did it. There are towns with no fully evolved pokemon trainers

prove it then. Cause when i look at the anime towns and villages there will almost always be some guy with a tough pokemon

Yes because thats stated. I have a scan, you don't, so you're conceding

If one TRULY TREASURES another and FIGHTS TO PROTECT THEM their STRENGTH is magnified manyfold. You are ignoring every factor of your own statement. You argue that an untrained Pinsir dashing in front of a solar beam cannot be scaled to it. Let's see
-Pinsir cares about the heracross not the trainer
-Pinsir wasn't fighting until after it preformed the feat
-Pinsir moved fast, there's no strength to be mentioned

Yes, because I have evidence that you failed to refute, so I'll take that as a concession

I've already refuted it. It's called common sense. Pikachu has better bonds and better training combined. Even if we use your logic you are still contradicting yourself to the point of ridiculousness

Yes, because of bonds

I provided evidnece that bonds do jack shit. Your arguments are becoming more desperate and stupid at this point

Absolutely, because Goh is not just a random trainer, but in the top 10 strongest characters in the entire verse (including legendary and mythical Pokemon, and I do believe that Goh's Raboot is several times stronger than Arceus)

Please tell me you're being sarcastic. If you are not then i am never replying to you again and i'll advice every supporter to ignore you.

Carry on believing on your delusions then

I'd say something rude but all i have to say is, you too

 

[Arceus0x]

Anyways i am getting off track. I agree with not using Lycanroc's feat, there are other feats to be calculated and used.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I'm fine with using Goh's Pincir's feat to calculate speed for wild Pokémon, as she was never trained by Goh and was just left there in the lab

She fought to protect Heracross, but even wild Pokémon can do some pretty good stuff when they protect someone (for example, wild Ursarings are very aggressive if someone gets close to their Teddiursa. They can even attack the trainer in Legends Arceus)

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Also the gif you just sent shows that they weren't even knocked out despite being 4x weak to electricity


And? This is true, D-max and Mega evos do multiply the power. Doesn't prove why an untrained Pinsir is X amount times stronger than a wild one

1. In the games bonds are formed through training, that is how affection worked for 4 generations until you could boost it further by taking care of the pokemon
2. Mega evolution and Dynamax are reliant on Eternatus and key stones, not bonds. Bonds are simply what lets the pokemon and their trainer connect, they aren't what causes dynamax or mega evolution. Mewtwo can mega evolve without a trainer or a key stone, Ash couldn't g-max gengar without the g-max soup.

Bonds are formed through training and that still doesn't change the fact that a Pancham isn't comparable to Ash's pikachu as Ash and Pikachu have both a better bond and a better training regime. Even if we used your logic ash would still have an advantage and it would still be an outlier.

Yet the author is still in control of the story and we see that they don't care about making outliers. Either way i don't care too much about this point since it was just a statement. Children's shows don't care about making outliers, its simple as that.

prove it then. Cause when i look at the anime towns and villages there will almost always be some guy with a tough pokemon

If one TRULY TREASURES another and FIGHTS TO PROTECT THEM their STRENGTH is magnified manyfold. You are ignoring every factor of your own statement. You argue that an untrained Pinsir dashing in front of a solar beam cannot be scaled to it. Let's see
-Pinsir cares about the heracross not the trainer
-Pinsir wasn't fighting until after it preformed the feat
-Pinsir moved fast, there's no strength to be mentioned

I've already refuted it. It's called common sense. Pikachu has better bonds and better training combined. Even if we use your logic you are still contradicting yourself to the point of ridiculousness

I provided evidnece that bonds do jack shit. Your arguments are becoming more desperate and stupid at this point

Please tell me you're being sarcastic. If you are not then i am never replying to you again and i'll advice every supporter to ignore you.

I'd say something rude but all i have to say is, you too

Sure, Scorbunny> Gen 7 Pikachu > Tapu Koko

Its both galar particles and the bond, though. Mega Pokemon are also faster, proving bonds do increase strength

we don't even know what town it destroyed

Pinsir was literally trying to protect it. And we base a Pokemons speed based on their strength, thats why 2nd stage and beyond are faster. They don't have better feats than first stage in terms of speed, except for Gothitelle's massively ftl one

Funny enough, contests are about bonds. So a contest trained pokemon can be stronger than one who battles a lot, it is possible

Wait till you see the statement of Aether Foundation needing Arceus level power to combat Ultra Beasts

Still no evidence that training>bonds. You take the base stats and level over a Pokemons actual feats. Scale another verse, Pokemon is too hard for you

 

[Arceus0x]

Sure, Scorbunny> Gen 7 Pikachu > Tapu Koko

so you agree its an outlier just like the countless other instances of this? Or are you suggesting that this statement of yours is true?

Its both galar particles and the bond, though. Mega Pokemon are also faster, proving bonds do increase strength

It is done with the help of a key stone, genetics AND bonds, not just with the help of bonds. Not to mention only certain pokemon can mega evolve and no matter how hard you try you aren't mega evolving a Riolu. The fact that a pokemon needs to be fully evolved to mega evolve shows that it has many things to do with genetics.
Now for dynamax and gigantamax, a single energy hit from eternatus energy turned countless pokemon into their d-max/g-max forms. Pikachu also g-maxed against his will only by intaking the energy of a power spot. So bonds barely have anything to do with that phenomenon.

we don't even know what town it destroyed

so? Doesn't change the fact that nobody pulled out a starly that was trained and loved that, according to you, would be strong enough to fight Ash's pikachu, and gave it a beatdown, does it?

Pinsir was literally trying to protect it. And we base a Pokemons speed based on their strength, thats why 2nd stage and beyond are faster. They don't have better feats than first stage in terms of speed, except for Gothitelle's massively ftl one

And? It jumped to protect its loved one after the beam was fired. A legitimate feat of speed. This isn't a bond with a trainer, this is a bond with another pokemon. If you are suggesting that any bond is feasible then that would ruin your entire point because that would mean that wild pokemon are also that strong as they have close bonds with their mothers, fathers and siblings, with the exception of maybe cubone. Kangaskhan fights to protect its child, the most powerful emotion any living being can have, and yet i don't see it obliterating fully evolved mons every day, thus this argument makes no sense.

Speed is based on the stage, not their strength. If I were to prove that there's a cool relativistic feat for first stages i could easily upgrade them to relativistic+ or whatever i get. The only reason why their speed is different is because people believe in the speed stage difference too hard. I actually have a CRT that is trying to slightly equate the speed of every pokemon, though it is kinda dead.

Funny enough, contests are about bonds. So a contest trained pokemon can be stronger than one who battles a lot, it is possible

Only using your logic that bonds are everything. Meanwhile the statement you provided yourself only proves that their strength can increase if they fight for who they care about, thus, nullifying this statement.

Wait till you see the statement of Aether Foundation needing Arceus level power to combat Ultra Beasts

they needed power similar to arceus, specifically the RKS system which is based on Arceus' ability to change typings in battle rather than his attack potency.

Still no evidence that training>bonds. Scale another verse, Pokemon is too hard for you

Shut the hell up. you should be thankful i give enough of a shit to actually listen to your points and reply carefully rather than telling you that your entire statement is invalid and ignoring you for the rest of the thread like the rest of the people in this wiki.
Anyways I think the most basic evidence that training is > bonds is...the fact that you're a pokemon trainer? Literally in the name, trainer. I already showed you that assuming bonds are everything would mean that your own argument is flawed many times, the outlier with Pancham and Pikachu being one example. Ash overcame Lt. Surge and Brock not by being better friends with Pikachu but by training him and coming up with strategies to beat his opponent. Ash didn't overcome the first gym in Kalos by giving love to his pokemon but by training them hard and figuring out a strategy. Yellow didn't overcome Lance by loving her pokemon but by training and evolving them.
The only time any bonding worked as you say it did, and it was indeed the one and only time, was when Ash bonded with Greninja and thus mastered the ash-greninja form. This is the only way and apparently it was unique to greninja, this being proven by the fact that Ash-pikachu doesn't exist and that Ash-charizard doesn't exist and whatever else doesn't exist. Chikorita is literally in love with Ash and i don't see it turning into a mega evolution level pokemon.

Also

You take the base stats and level over a Pokemons actual feats.

1. What does this have to do with everything in this thread?
2. I already explained that I use base stats as supporting evidence, but apparently your bird brain was too small to comprehend that careful explanation i made specifically for you.


Overall, pokemon is too hard for you. Go scale My little pony friendship is magic but OH WAIT they won't accept you, because they don't need people who lack common sense in their supporter list.

 

[StekFence]

back, we don't know how fast the Solar Beam would be.

It’s a beam of light, sunlight in fact. That tells you a lot about speed

 

[StekFence]

They can even attack the trainer in Legends Arceus)

I mean, which Pokémon cant?

 

[XXKINGXX69]

so you agree its an outlier just like the countless other instances of this? Or are you suggesting that this statement of yours is true?

It is done with the help of a key stone, genetics AND bonds, not just with the help of bonds. Not to mention only certain pokemon can mega evolve and no matter how hard you try you aren't mega evolving a Riolu. The fact that a pokemon needs to be fully evolved to mega evolve shows that it has many things to do with genetics.
Now for dynamax and gigantamax, a single energy hit from eternatus energy turned countless pokemon into their d-max/g-max forms. Pikachu also g-maxed against his will only by intaking the energy of a power spot. So bonds barely have anything to do with that phenomenon.

so? Doesn't change the fact that nobody pulled out a starly that was trained and loved that, according to you, would be strong enough to fight Ash's pikachu, and gave it a beatdown, does it?

And? It jumped to protect its loved one after the beam was fired. A legitimate feat of speed. This isn't a bond with a trainer, this is a bond with another pokemon. If you are suggesting that any bond is feasible then that would ruin your entire point because that would mean that wild pokemon are also that strong as they have close bonds with their mothers, fathers and siblings, with the exception of maybe cubone. Kangaskhan fights to protect its child, the most powerful emotion any living being can have, and yet i don't see it obliterating fully evolved mons every day, thus this argument makes no sense.

Speed is based on the stage, not their strength. If I were to prove that there's a cool relativistic feat for first stages i could easily upgrade them to relativistic+ or whatever i get. The only reason why their speed is different is because people believe in the speed stage difference too hard. I actually have a CRT that is trying to slightly equate the speed of every pokemon, though it is kinda dead.


Only using your logic that bonds are everything. Meanwhile the statement you provided yourself only proves that their strength can increase if they fight for who they care about, thus, nullifying this statement.

they needed power similar to arceus, specifically the RKS system which is based on Arceus' ability to change typings in battle rather than his attack potency.

Shut the hell up. you should be thankful i give enough of a shit to actually listen to your points and reply carefully rather than telling you that your entire statement is invalid and ignoring you for the rest of the thread like the rest of the people in this wiki.
Anyways I think the most basic evidence that training is > bonds is...the fact that you're a pokemon trainer? Literally in the name, trainer. I already showed you that assuming bonds are everything would mean that your own argument is flawed many times, the outlier with Pancham and Pikachu being one example. Ash overcame Lt. Surge and Brock not by being better friends with Pikachu but by training him and coming up with strategies to beat his opponent. Ash didn't overcome the first gym in Kalos by giving love to his pokemon but by training them hard and figuring out a strategy. Yellow didn't overcome Lance by loving her pokemon but by training and evolving them.
The only time any bonding worked as you say it did, and it was indeed the one and only time, was when Ash bonded with Greninja and thus mastered the ash-greninja form. This is the only way and apparently it was unique to greninja, this being proven by the fact that Ash-pikachu doesn't exist and that Ash-charizard doesn't exist and whatever else doesn't exist. Chikorita is literally in love with Ash and i don't see it turning into a mega evolution level pokemon.

Also

1. What does this have to do with everything in this thread?
2. I already explained that I use base stats as supporting evidence, but apparently your bird brain was too small to comprehend that careful explanation i made specifically for you.


Overall, pokemon is too hard for you. Go scale My little pony friendship is magic but OH WAIT they won't accept you, because they don't need people who lack common sense in their supporter list.

Ok post scans of training>bonds or you concede

It’s a beam of light, sunlight in fact. That tells you a lot about speed

If Tapu Bulu can hold back his solar beam's speed, its possible that it can be below light speed. Its unknown speed at best, so we use other light reacting feats

 

[StekFence]

Alr

 

[Arceus0x]

Ok post scans of training>bonds or you concede

First of all, you aren't the one deciding whether i concede or not, that is for me to decide, not some kid

Second of all, I already told you the proof. Ash had to train for lt. Surge and had to train even harder for Brock. He trained for the first gym in Kalos and he had to train for his rematch against Nanu. These are entire episodes, i am not going to post "scans" cause i can't post the link to an entire 20 minute anime episode without breaking piracy rules.
But for your info it is
original series episode 5 and 14
XY series episodes 5 and 6
Pretty sure episode 15 of sun and moon had rockruff training hard to become stronger
The point of episodes 74 and 75 is that Ash lost and underwent training with Tapu bulu to win.

Riddle me this, if your "bonds" were above training then why does Ash have to train every time he loses a fight or he wants to get stronger when Serena spending time with Pancham could, according to you, make the pancham close in power to Ash's Pikachu? Why doesn't Ash just chill out with his pokemon, go shopping and go to hot springs. Why is he a pokemon "trainer" when he could just do whatever he wants to increase the bonds and suddenly become as strong as a champion?
I think even an idiot can figure the answer to that ---> training is the most important part of getting stronger, bonds just grow with the training and can potentially boost the power of the pokemon a few times under the circumstance of training for long periods of time. Just because an overly eccentric elite four member mentioned in an inspirational speech that a pokemon protecting its loved one could grow stronger a few times doesn't automatically make every single pokemon that is owned by a trainer 100000x stronger than it originally was. Period.