Pokemon Discussion Thread - Red & Blue arc

[Executor_N0]

It's not even a question about it being wrong, just written in a way that people looking for upgrades could think it's talking about Palkia's nature instead of the nature of space being indifferent to matter being alive or not as it's always the same space. It's really just a "problem" if seen by someone trying to get a feat out of that.

 

[Sniper670]

I'm back.... And I'm wondering why Giratina doesn't got Chaos manipulation. From PLA:

Two beings of time and space set free from the Original One.”
“The rift is born of disorder on the other side of the world.”
“The rules of time and space change within the opposite world.”
“That which fills the other side of the world can shape the rage and mold it .”

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Sure, I mean its also the antithesis to space and time

 

[Sniper670]

Sure, I mean its also the antithesis to space and time

It also falls in line with the Distortion world being opposite to the Pokémon reality

Order on one side, and Chaos on the other. As described by Cyrus both of them intertwine like a DNA spiral, and keep each other in balance. Y'know, like a Duality.........

 

[Thelastmlg]

Also, isn't the distortion world a place without laws of physics and logic?

 

[Sniper670]

Also, isn't the distortion world a place without laws of physics and logic?

Yup, the physics part was mentioned in the games

 

[Thelastmlg]

Yup, the physics part was mentioned in the games

Nice, i think it was the manga that said it lacked logic

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Nice, i think it was the manga that said it lacked logic

Its stated in the anime and website too

 

[Sniper670]

Its stated in the anime and website too

Ohhh.......

 

[Sniper670]

Nice, i think it was the manga that said it lacked logic

Found it

 

[Sniper670]

Its stated in the anime and website too

"I bet even the laws of cause and effects get distorted here"

Which falls in line with the nature of the place. A place of chaos, no logic, the laws of reality don't apply, and even cause and effects

And by Masudas statement "Arceus is a God who transcends everything".

Shouldn't llama have Aca type 5 by now?

Normal cause and effect = Pokémon world
Chaotic world with irregular laws of cause and effect= Distortion world

A God who transcends everything = Arceus

 

[XXKINGXX69]

"I bet even the laws of cause and effects get distorted here"

Which falls in line with the nature of the place. A place of chaos, no logic, the laws of reality don't apply, and even cause and effects

And by Masudas statement "Arceus is a God who transcends everything".

Shouldn't llama have Aca type 5 by now?

Normal cause and effect = Pokémon world
Chaotic world with irregular laws of cause and effect= Distortion world

A God who transcends everything = Arceus

Transcending everything is very vague, unless he says "transcends all concepts". Arceus doesn't even transcend the Tree of Life

 

[theultimate5105]

I mean Arceus's realm exists outside of both real and distortion worlds with him being born before they existed
so both a world of twistedf cause and effect and the normal world are below him
that is at minimum beyond baseline acasuality type 4

 

[Sniper670]

Transcending everything is very vague, unless he says "transcends all concepts". Arceus doesn't even transcend the Tree of Life

What's vague about it. How many times would Arcues be said to transcend space and time, fundamental concepts that shape reality. . Which falls in line with Masudas statement about transcendence of everything within reality. Everytime that is brought up, "oh no, it's flowery". Show the proof that they're Flowery.

Mystery Dungeon is is barely even canon. It literally contradicts the Canon on several occasions. Primal Dialga, Dialga needing time gears to maintain time accross the world when that has never been the case.

So no, Mystery dungeon cannot take precedence over the main canon. Unless you mean to tell me that mystery dungeon plotline>> Masuda's statement about the God of the Multiverse

 

[Sniper670]

I'm tired of hearing that Masuda's statement is vague... It's always brought up. There's no contradiction there

Prove to me that it's vague

Is Arceus not a God? He is

Does he transcend the reality? Yes he does. Said several times he transcends space and time, Reality as a whole. Backed up by Masuda's statement of his transcendence

It's literally as clear as day. So why is it vague. It's like people doubt whether Arceus is really transcendent over the reality he himself created

 

[XXKINGXX69]

I didn't say it was flowery, I'm saying I don't know what "transcends everything" means. And I never said Arceus doesn't transcend time and space

We already accepted mystery dungeon as canon, Dialga doesn't need the time gears, it just helps to regulate time. and yes, mystery dungeon is more canon than an author statement, an author can't have more authority than his own work. If its contradicted in the games, then why even use the author statement?

I'm tired of hearing that Masuda's statement is vague... It's always brought up. There's no contradiction there

Prove to me that it's vague

Is Arceus not a God? He is

Does he transcend the reality? Yes he does. Said several times he transcends space and time, Reality as a whole. Backed up by Masuda's statement of his transcendence

It's literally as clear as day. So why is it vague. It's like people doubt whether Arceus is really transcendent over the reality he himself created

Why do you worship Arceus to this extent? See a therapist lmao. Nobody said Arceus doesn't transcend reality or space and time. And wtf does him being a god have to do with anything?

 

[Sniper670]

I didn't say it was flowery, I'm saying I don't know what "transcends everything" means. And I never said Arceus doesn't transcend time and space

We already accepted mystery dungeon as canon, Dialga doesn't need the time gears, it just helps to regulate time. and yes, mystery dungeon is more canon than an author statement, an author can't have more authority than his own work. If its contradicted in the games, then why even use the author statement?

And have you seen the true form of Arceus? The one who's Omnipresent, abstract entity, not just his Avatar. The one who created the concepts that shape the multiverse . The one who exist beyond space time as shown in PlA, the one who transcends everything?
Dialga never needs time gears to maintain anything in main canon so that's a contradiction. At best, it's one of the alternate realities amongst the infinite universes that their true forms govern

Why do you worship Arceus to this extent? See a therapist lmao. Nobody said Arceus doesn't transcend reality or space and time. And wtf does him being a god have to do with anything?

Sure. But there's no contradiction between what Masuda said and the canon.

 

[Arceus0x]

Arceus is accepted to encompass everything in pokemon reality. It's just how it works.

 

[Sniper670]

I mean Arceus's realm exists outside of both real and distortion worlds with him being born before they existed
so both a world of twistedf cause and effect and the normal world are below him
that is at minimum beyond baseline acasuality type 4

Well, there are those who doubt and use secondary canon to prove Masuda and the Pokémon canon wrong

 

[Arceus0x]

Also saying that Arceus isn't beyond the tree of life is outright wrong.
Arceus' avatar wasn't beyond dark matter, however his true form is. His true form is quite literally the embodiment of all lives and of all souls, residing in an unreachable place. If dark matter could affect it then everyone besides the legendaries would get turned to stone instantly since the source of their existence would get petrified.
Considering that didn't happen, only the avatar was affected (that's why i want to make avatars have a varying tier and people keep opposing me).

This also fits with the latest description of Arceus only helping humans and pokemon a little bit, making them help themselves and not rely on him. He did nothing in the game besides notifying the player of the ongoing event.

Also, tree of life being beyond arceus would make 0 sense in canon since arceus quite literally created life and death.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Tbh PMD is obviously not canon and has a very different lore from the mainline game.

However people will just try any amount of reaching to pretend it makes any sense for it to be part of the canon.

 

[Arceus0x]

Tbh PMD is obviously not canon and has a very different lore from the mainline game.

However people will just try any amount of reaching to pretend it makes any sense for it to be part of the canon.

I think it's okay to accept a good chunk of it as canon but maybe not PSMD cause that just makes barely any sense.
In case of older games the only thing that is inconsistent is Dialga needing the gears but that's that. The rest is okay.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I think it's okay to accept a good chunk of it as canon but maybe not PSMD cause that just makes barely any sense.
In case of older games the only thing that is inconsistent is Dialga needing the gears but that's that. The rest is okay.

The entire lore surrounding the Tree of Life and all is also nonsense.

 

[Sniper670]

Also saying that Arceus isn't beyond the tree of life is outright wrong.
Arceus' avatar wasn't beyond dark matter, however his true form is. His true form is quite literally the embodiment of all lives and of all souls, residing in an unreachable place. If dark matter could affect it then everyone besides the legendaries would get turned to stone instantly since the source of their existence would get petrified.
Considering that didn't happen, only the avatar was affected (that's why i want to make avatars have a varying tier and people keep opposing me).

Agreed. I'd rather prefer if pmd had a seperate key instead of the varying tier, but eh.......

This also fits with the latest description of Arceus only helping humans and pokemon a little bit, making them help themselves and not rely on him. He did nothing in the game besides notifying the player of the ongoing event

I think that happened in the anime recently.

Also, tree of life being beyond arceus would make 0 sense in canon since arceus quite literally created life and death.

He was quite literally using pmd to counter the main canon. Smh.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Tbh PMD is obviously not canon and has a very different lore from the mainline game.

However people will just try any amount of reaching to pretend it makes any sense for it to be part of the canon.

Something Something "multiverse and everything is canon".

 

[theultimate5105]

Agreed. I'd rather prefer if pmd had a seperate key instead of the varying tier, but eh.......

I think that happened in the anime recently.


He was quite literally using pmd to counter the main canon. Smh.

Yeah it happened in the legends Arceus special where he only showed up at he last minute To mainly get his plate back

 

[Arceus0x]

It's still a very important part of Arceus' character since it explains away every time Arceus does nothing during a story.

 

[Sniper670]

It's still a very important part of Arceus' character since it explains away every time Arceus does nothing during a story.

Except when he wants to tank some meteorites for mankind

 

[Arceus0x]

Except when he wants to tank some meteorites for mankind

I have a theory that the whole plot of Jewel of life was just an excuse for Arceus to force people to think and fix their mistakes

 

[Sniper670]

Something Something "multiverse and everything is canon".

That should be reserved for the anime, manga and mainline games.

TCG is iffy, but it can work as supporting evidence

PMD, I can't take it seriously. And the other spinoffs with no connection to the mainline series. At least I don't believe dialga would lose his mind if some time gears are stolen

 

[Thelastmlg]

Yeah it happened in the legends Arceus special where he only showed up at he last minute To mainly get his plate back

Priorities

 

[Sniper670]

Yeah it happened in the legends Arceus special where he only showed up at he last minute To mainly get his plate back

Ever since he got burned by a human in JOL, He's learned to keep his distance at least

 

[GodlyCharmander]

That should be reserved for the anime, manga and mainline games.

TCG is iffy, but it can work as supporting evidence

PMD, I can't take it seriously. And the other spinoffs with no connection to the mainline series. At least I don't believe dialga would lose his mind if some time gears are stolen

Argument from incredulity being terrible.

No, if we established there is a multiverse, and it's potentially infinite just so we can say anime, games, spin offs and mangs are connected, PMD should be no exception. Also, you talk like the anime doesn't have the biggest amount of BS.

 

[Sniper670]

I have a theory that the whole plot of Jewel of life was just an excuse for Arceus to force people to think and fix their mistakes

Probably. It seems TPC has changed how they treat Arceus . In all its later appearance there's a sense of authority. JOL did him dirty

 

[XXKINGXX69]

And have you seen the true form of Arceus? The one who's Omnipresent, abstract entity, not just his Avatar. The one who created the concepts that shape the multiverse . The one who exist beyond space time as shown in PlA, the one who transcends everything?
Dialga never needs time gears to maintain anything in main canon so that's a contradiction. At best, it's one of the alternate realities amongst the infinite universes that their true forms govern

Sure. But there's no contradiction between what Masuda said and the canon.

Where did I say he wasn't omnipresent and doesn't transcend space and time?

Dialga doesn't need time gears, I just explained it

Also saying that Arceus isn't beyond the tree of life is outright wrong.
Arceus' avatar wasn't beyond dark matter, however his true form is. His true form is quite literally the embodiment of all lives and of all souls, residing in an unreachable place. If dark matter could affect it then everyone besides the legendaries would get turned to stone instantly since the source of their existence would get petrified.
Considering that didn't happen, only the avatar was affected (that's why i want to make avatars have a varying tier and people keep opposing me).

This also fits with the latest description of Arceus only helping humans and pokemon a little bit, making them help themselves and not rely on him. He did nothing in the game besides notifying the player of the ongoing event.

Also, tree of life being beyond arceus would make 0 sense in canon since arceus quite literally created life and death.

The original spirit is arceus' spirit obviously, and Dark Matter erased that. Arceus is not some "source of existence" where if something happens to him then everything else gets affected, where is this stated?

He also tried his best to communicate with the world, and couldn't do anything against Dark Matter and was killed

Arceus has no indication of creating Xerneas and death, and its not like the Pokemon can't grow stronger after that, there are rocks with the power of the Original Spirit in the Pokemon world

Tbh PMD is obviously not canon and has a very different lore from the mainline game.

However people will just try any amount of reaching to pretend it makes any sense for it to be part of the canon.

How come Arceus' page has stuff from PMD, but when something downgrades Arceus, PMD is non canon? And what about it is "different lore"? You know its just a different universe, right?

It's still a very important part of Arceus' character since it explains away every time Arceus does nothing during a story.

Its not some kinda excuse to just discredit everytime someone is shown to be more powerful than Arceus, especially since Arceus was just killed here. He doesn't do much when helping humanity, but in PMD, he couldn't do anything to protect himself

 

[Sniper670]

Argument from incredulity being terrible.

No, if we established there is a multiverse, and it's potentially infinite just so we can say anime, games, spin offs and mangs are connected, PMD should be no exception. Also, you talk like the anime doesn't have the biggest amount of BS.

Sure.... It's one of those weird alternate dimensions Palkia made

 

[Sniper670]

Where did I say he wasn't omnipresent and doesn't transcend space and time?

Dialga doesn't need time gears, I just explained it

Bro, the whole time gears thing is BS. Has no connection to canon. I'd like to see where in the creation story Dialga needed time gears. And that he'd go mad if he lost them

The original spirit is arceus' spirit obviously, and Dark Matter erased that. Arceus is not some "source of existence" where if something happens to him then everything else gets affected, where is this stated?

Yes, he's the embodiment of the ultivers itself. If something happens to him, the multiverse will fall apart. Same reason the distortion world will fall apart if Giratina dies, or any of the CT for that matter. He IS the heart of the multiverse

He also tried his best to communicate with the world, and couldn't do anything against Dark Matter and was killed

"He tried his best". Yup, Arceus tried his very best and couldn't save a planet. I assure you, PLA games statements about Arceus Might and Position withing the multiverse was a lie. It clearly contradicts the main canon, which is pmd

Arceus has no indication of creating Xrneas

Gee, I wonder who created the multiverse and gave Pokémon their power. Because of dubious canon which contradicts the main canon. Wow

How come Arceus' page has stuff from PMD, but when something downgrades Arceus, PMD is non canon? And what about it is "different lore"? You know its just a different universe, right?

That Dialga is certainly not THE Dialga. In canon, Dialga has no need for Time Gears. In canon, Xerneas has no relationship to tree of life

Its not some kinda excuse to just discredit everytime someone is shown to be more powerful than Arceus, especially since Arceus was just killed here. He doesn't do much when helping humanity, but in PMD, he couldn't do anything to protect himself

No. Pmd already has a seperate key. It's a seperate canon. Has no relationship with the primary canon with the sheer number of contradictions in them. You know something is wrong when we got low 2C sceptile in pmd. Smh

 

[QuasiYuri]

No, if we established there is a multiverse, and it's potentially infinite just so we can say anime, games, spin offs and mangs are connected, PMD should be no exception. Also, you talk like the anime doesn't have the biggest amount of BS.

That's not the reason why the former are connected.
In fact, the new blog was made because the "multiverse gg" argument is dumb af.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

That's not the reason why the former are connected.
In fact, the new blog was made because the "multiverse gg" argument is dumb af.

But dismissing a probable multiversal connection because of conflicting lore of different universes is also dumb af, don't you think?

 

[QuasiYuri]

But dismissing a probable multiversal connection because of conflicting lore of different universes is also dumb af, don't you think?

I don't.

Xerneas being the avatar of a giant tree that makes the Earth move (because gravity apparently isn't a thing in that game) and which requires all the Pkmn in the world including manmade ones (despite mankind being a legend in the PMD series) to stop the embobidment of all evil that OHKO Arceus isn't what I would call canon, no.

Besides, canon non-mainline stuff have more than one reason for their canonicity (besides being directly said to be canon by times) and while their history isn't the exact same, the lore stays accurate most of the time.

A work introducing a multiverse isn't an open door to put every single spin off in existence as canon.
It should only be treated the same way you would for a world which isn't featuring such structure.