Pokemon Discussion Thread - Red & Blue arc

[Arceus0x]

In addition, a trainer who basically mains psychic powers and travels around the world - Anabel, a frontier brain, uses Metagross, Espeon and Alakazam. No Slowkings in sight.

Another note is the fact that an Alakazam in ep 108 was capable of restricting a rather large Team Rocket Rhydon mech that was made to overpower Ash's pokemon and was powered by a few pokemon.

 

[Arceus0x]

Btw i am working on a calc for the Pinsir blocking solar beam and the mega low ball i am getting is 2.7c FTL and a better feat than Golem or Lycanroc feat. This is also better because it is done by an untrained pokemon (Goh only has four or so pokemon he trains, that being Cinderace, Grookey, Inteleon and slightly Darmanitan, with the other exception being that one Golurk he caught in the temple. The rest just get caught and chill at the park 99% of the time)

 

[XXKINGXX69]

They have the entire pokedex available to them half the time and the other half of the time they've countless encyclopedias and databases available to them. If Alain knew about team flare and megaevolution I'm pretty sure he'd find the time to figure out that the toughest psychic pokemon is Slowking, and yet he uses a Metagross. Why's that? Because he's superior and even champions know that.



They're the same species, they both have shelders on their heads and the shelders can compete and fight each other as we've seen in the episode. Literally the only difference between the two is the poison type.

There's no reason to scale one Slowking to class M and the other to class G

Not everyone wants the toughest Pokemon. By that logic, I can say Sabrina using a Chingling in a gauntlet in Pokemon masters means Chingling > Mega Alakazam.

The toxins enhanced their intelligence which correlates to psychic power

Btw i am working on a calc for the Pinsir blocking solar beam and the mega low ball i am getting is 2.7c FTL and a better feat than Golem or Lycanroc feat. This is also better because it is done by an untrained pokemon (Goh only has four or so pokemon he trains, that being Cinderace, Grookey, Inteleon and slightly Darmanitan, with the other exception being that one Golurk he caught in the temple. The rest just get caught and chill at the park 99% of the time)

I proved to you a while ago why being untrained doesn't mean a Pokemon isn't stronger. They get amped by a usually unquantifiable amount, so we don't know if its a lot or little. This Pinsir can take a Quick Attack from Ash's Pikachu, which has one shotted a lot of fully evolved Pokemon and even damaged mega pokemon. They also don't just "chill at the park", they train with each other without him

 

[Arceus0x]

They also don't just "chill at the park", they train with each other without him

Pinsir only sits around having lovey dovey moments with Heracross, not training. If some of them train then that doesn't mean every single one trains.

I proved to you a while ago why being untrained doesn't mean a Pokemon isn't stronger. They get amped by a usually unquantifiable amount, so we don't know if its a lot or little.

You proved nothing and i never agreed with that.

This Pinsir can take a Quick Attack from Ash's Pikachu, which has one shotted a lot of fully evolved Pokemon and even damaged mega pokemon.

Doesn't change much. Quick attack is a weak physical attack. Just because a pinsir can tank it (Pinsir's are High 7-A which means that a 6-C pikachu would only do 2x the damage according to the statistics accepted on our wiki) doesn't mean it's automatically stronger than every other pinsir. You are twisting facts to suit your own scaling.
Pikachu also fights many wild pokemon and takes damage from them and wild pokemon can often tank his hits despite being untrained. That doesn't mean that every pokemon pikachu encounters is suddenly the strongest of their kind, that would be another assumption with barely any basis.

 

[Arceus0x]

Not everyone wants the toughest Pokemon. By that logic, I can say Sabrina using a Chingling in a gauntlet in Pokemon masters means Chingling > Mega Alakazam.

The toxins enhanced their intelligence which correlates to psychic power

So a frontier brain isn't going to use the strongest pokemon available to them? You know, available literally anywhere. Bs.

Sabrina using a pre-evolution just means she's holding back.

 

[Arceus0x]

Also G. Slowking is stated to be under the full control of his Shelder as the toxins increased its intelligence specifically. There's nothing that indicates that suddenly Shelder has more psychic power, there's only a statement about it using poisons for potions.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

So a frontier brain isn't going to use the strongest pokemon available to them? You know, available literally anywhere. Bs.

Sabrina using a pre-evolution just means she's holding back.

She wasn't really holding back, she wanted to win. There are several instances of trainers just not wanting to go around the world and magically knowing the best Pokemon they can find and catching them to use them. Saying that people use Alakazam and Metagross instead of Slowking means they're stronger than Slowking requires a massive number of assumptions and leaps in logic. There could be a myriad of reasons why they just don't use slowking. Like speed, versatility, moves it can learn, the bond between a trainer and Pokemon, how hard it is to train a Pokemon, how hard it is to find the Pokemon, whether or not they know everything about the Pokemon.

You also clearly forgot about Klara using Galarian Slowking in the Galarian Star tournament, and her team is a challenge for the protagonist of Sword and Shield, who is stronger than late game Leon, who at that time was top 2 or 1 trainers in the entire verse

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Just saying if we use that logic too, Eternatus can be scaled above Arceus, the Ultra Beasts can be scaled above Dialga and Palkia

 

[Arceus0x]

Saying that people use Alakazam and Metagross instead of Slowking means they're stronger than Slowking requires a massive number of assumptions and leaps in logic.

Less than the leaps in logic that you make for sure.

who at that time was top 2 or 1 trainers in the entire verse

There's no evidence of that, there are more than a few trainers who go beyond his level in postgames. The frontier brains are lvl 100 alone and use legendaries. Either way that doesn't matter since that doesn't really change anything as the likes of Steven and others use Metagross and such.

Just saying if we use that logic too, Eternatus can be scaled above Arceus, the Ultra Beasts can be scaled above Dialga and Palkia

Wtf are you even talking about

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Less than the leaps in logic that you make for sure.

There's no evidence of that, there are more than a few trainers who go beyond his level in postgames. The frontier brains are lvl 100 alone and use legendaries. Either way that doesn't matter since that doesn't really change anything as the likes of Steven and others use Metagross and such.

Wtf are you even talking about

Steven isn't even the most powerful psychic type trainer.

There are several reasons why a trainer would not want to use a "stronger pokemon"

They could not know about their power (Ash has never even seen a Galarian Slowking and Slowpoke, and he's a lot more knowledgeable on Pokemon than Steven), they want to use Pokemon they prefer (Ash doesn't evolve Pikachu even though he wants to be the strongest trainer in the world). There are many reasons why Steven isnt gonna use a


Why is it less leaps in logic? "More than a few trainers" Sure, name all of them

Giovanni believes that Dialga isn't even enough to complete his plan of taking over the world and he needed the Ultra Beasts, Team Rocket are interested in getting Pikachu more than they are in Darkrai, and are completely uninterested in Darkrai when they were forced to capture it, until they were told there was a reward, even though they have seen Darkrai fight and know they are Creation Trio level (In fact they are more interested in catching Moltres)

 

[Arceus0x]

Why is it less leaps in logic? "More than a few trainers" Sure, name all of them

battle frontier brains, Cynthia, Red, Blue, Diantha has fairy types of comparable levels, Iris ect.
All have pokemon beyond lvl 80. There's also the fact that previous protagonists are canon to the games so add in like 10 more people

 

[XXKINGXX69]

battle frontier brains, Cynthia, Red, Blue, Diantha has fairy types of comparable levels, Iris ect.
All have pokemon beyond lvl 80. There's also the fact that previous protagonists are canon to the games so add in like 10 more people

Dont ******* tell me you think them having Pokemon beyond level 80 means they're stronger or comparable to Leon if you really think that, I would reccomend you stop scaling the verse

Most previous protags and all frontier brains prior to Gen 8 would get slapped by Marine's Morpeko alone

 

[Arceus0x]

Dont ******* tell me you think them having Pokemon beyond level 80 means they're stronger or comparable to Leon if

Don't freaking tell me that your brain is of that small of a size that you do not comprehend that Red, Blue and Cynthia, besides having higher level pokemon, are far more experienced and have fought for many years and had many more encounters than Leon. Let's see, Red defeated the elite four and Blue, Lance who later became a champion, fought through many world leagues and has trained for years on end. Blue also did most of that except for beating red. Cynthia has participated in battle trees, helped solve a universal crisis and more. Frontier brains literally have legendaries.
All Leon has shown was beating Raihan and getting clapped by an Eternatus.

if you really think that, I would reccomend you stop scaling the verse

If you really think that then i recommend you leaving the wiki and never coming back, making life for everyone much much easier. I've seen you complain about the wiki and its verses and standards and now i see you bending logic to try and suit pokemon to your own scaling. If you don't like it here so much then leave and make it easier for everyone in this world.
Also it's recommend, not "reccomend". There's a big red wavy line below any misspelling and yet your blind ass seems to not be capable of seeing that, just like you don't seem to be capable of seeing logic.

Most previous protags and all frontier brains prior to Gen 8 would get slapped by Marine's Morpeko alone

This is the dumbest argument i've seen since that one outerversal rimuru argument where they said he's high 1-A for killing spirits. Her morpeko wouldn't last one round.

Overall: please stop lowering the braincells of the entire wiki

 

[SuperKamiNappa]

This is getting a bit TM06

 

[Arceus0x]

This is getting a bit TM06

do you think that the class G should scale to most powerful Psychic pokemon or only to Slowking? Just tell me. I want to know the opinion of others because i am tired of people just observing while i have to tell off this clown by myself.

 

[FinePoint]

This is getting a bit TM06

TM06 is Fly now

 

[Arceus0x]

TM06 is Fly now

and i do be lookin' fly

 

[FinePoint]

But anyways I have to agree with SuperKami.
You two seem incapable of having this debate civily.

Whoever is making the positive claim should make a CRT, because the debate is also TL;DR for me atm.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Don't freaking tell me that your brain is of that small of a size that you do not comprehend that Red, Blue and Cynthia, besides having higher level pokemon, are far more experienced and have fought for many years and had many more encounters than Leon. Let's see, Red defeated the elite four and Blue, Lance who later became a champion, fought through many world leagues and has trained for years on end. Blue also did most of that except for beating red. Cynthia has participated in battle trees, helped solve a universal crisis and more. Frontier brains literally have legendaries.
All Leon has shown was beating Raihan and getting clapped by an Eternatus.


If you really think that then i recommend you leaving the wiki and never coming back, making life for everyone much much easier. I've seen you complain about the wiki and its verses and standards and now i see you bending logic to try and suit pokemon to your own scaling. If you don't like it here so much then leave and make it easier for everyone in this world.
Also it's recommend, not "reccomend". There's a big red wavy line below any misspelling and yet your blind ass seems to not be capable of seeing that, just like you don't seem to be capable of seeing logic.

This is the dumbest argument i've seen since that one outerversal rimuru argument where they said he's high 1-A for killing spirits. Her morpeko wouldn't last one round.

Overall: please stop lowering the braincells of the entire wiki

First of all, Leon defeated Eternatus and his charizard one shotted Blue's Blastoise after getting staggered while he was "warming up". Cynthia in Gen 4 is weaker than Iris since her Garchomp in Gen 5 was equal to Caitlin's Gothitelle, who was defeated by Iris since she became the champion of Unova. And Iris and Ash are literally weaker than Leon and even Raihan

Second, Lance in Gen 8 is many times stronger than Gen 2 Lance, and in gen 8, lance's strongest Pokemon lost to Leon's G-max charizard

Leon is stated on several ocassions to be the strongest trainer and is literally Rank 1 in the World Championships

This is a hobby, no need for insults

 

[FinePoint]

But just reading the last few replies, I have to say that Leon should definitely be stronger than the older champions.
This is made pretty explicitly clear.

 

[Arceus0x]

First of all, Leon defeated Eternatus and his charizard one shotted Blue's Blastoise after getting staggered while he was "warming up". Cynthia in Gen 4 is weaker than Iris since her Garchomp in Gen 5 was equal to Caitlin's Gothitelle, who was defeated by Iris since she became the champion of Unova. And Iris and Ash are literally weaker than Leon and even Raihan

Second, Lance in Gen 8 is many times stronger than Gen 2 Lance, and in gen 8, lance's strongest Pokemon lost to Leon's G-max charizard

Leon is stated on several ocassions to be the strongest trainer and is literally Rank 1 in the World Championships

This is a hobby, no need for insults

Stop acting like you're the chill one after making fun of me and provoking me.

Anime is irrelevant, we're talking about games which are a different multiverse entirely

I'll agree that blue's weaker but not red and the rest.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Stop acting like you're the chill one after making fun of me and provoking me.

Anime is irrelevant, we're talking about games which are a different multiverse entirely

I'll agree that blue's weaker but not red and the rest.

We treat them as canon though, and cross scale different universes since they are based on each other and share similar feats, and are parallel universes

The statements for Leon being the strongest trainer are also in the games

 

[Arceus0x]

We treat them as canon though, and cross scale different universes since they are based on each other and share similar feats, and are parallel universes

The statements for Leon being the strongest trainer are also in the games

1. No, anime is canon to the anime continuity and the only thing we use are the feats due to them being similar. Otherwise we might as well say that evey Lance is an evil genocidal maniac like in the manga.

2. Scans?

 

[Arceus0x]

But just reading the last few replies, I have to say that Leon should definitely be stronger than the older champions.
This is made pretty explicitly clear.

At this point i don't give a damn. Just tell me whether or not you agree on using Pinsir's FTL and Slowking's class G as proper feats or not?
Cause at this point im just stalling for time until someone actually gives enough of a damn to support either one of the sides so either one of us can shut up and leave it. I need an arbiter that will support a side, not people jumping on the train by the time the conversation derails into a fight about something practically unrelated.
Look man, i just want to finish this. Either yall will say that I'm wrong and XX is right and i'll just leave and do sth productive or you'll support me and i can finally upgrade the verse without having to copy paste the entire argument above to prove my point yet again.

 

[FinePoint]

At this point i don't give a damn. Just tell me whether or not you agree on using Pinsir's FTL and Slowking's class G as proper feats or not?
Cause at this point im just stalling for time until someone actually gives enough of a damn to support either one of the sides so either one of us can shut up and leave it. I need an arbiter that will support a side, not people jumping on the train by the time the conversation derails into a fight about something practically unrelated.
Look man, i just want to finish this. Either yall will say that I'm wrong and XX is right and i'll just leave and do sth productive or you'll support me and i can finally upgrade the verse without having to copy paste the entire argument above to prove my point yet again.

I haven't been following this thread very closely. I'm too busy to monitor every discussion thread message.

Could you link to the most important section of the argument, please?

 

[Arceus0x]

I haven't been following this thread very closely. I'm too busy to monitor every discussion thread message.

Could you link to the most important section of the argument, please?

look at reply 1156 and from then on out look wherever you want since it is just a meaningless back and forth.

 

[FinePoint]

look at reply 1156 and from then on out look wherever you want since it is just a meaningless back and forth.

Wait, you're scaling them based on a rap battle?
I'm just more confused now.

 

[Arceus0x]

Wait, you're scaling them based on a rap battle?
I'm just more confused now.

well the rap battle basically had them rapping while shooting psychic energy at each other and they ended up being equal in power

 

[FinePoint]

well the rap battle basically had them rapping while shooting psychic energy at each other and they ended up being equal in power

I see.
So your basic argument is that Slowking = Orangaru = Alakazam?

 

[Arceus0x]

I see.
So your basic argument is that Slowking = Orangaru = Alakazam?

my basic argument is Slowking isn't >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alakazam cause Slowking has no statements of superior psychic powers... and yes Slowking=Oranguru=Alakazam

 

[Zeifyl]

my basic argument is Slowking isn't >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alakazam cause Slowking has no statements of superior psychic powers... and yes Slowking=Oranguru=Alakazam

Oh, that was what you two were going on about. I agree with you. Fully evolved Pokemon scale approximately to each other, barring specific feats or statements showing otherwise.

 

[FinePoint]

my basic argument is Slowking isn't >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alakazam cause Slowking has no statements of superior psychic powers... and yes Slowking=Oranguru=Alakazam

Okay. And why is Slowking being argued to be >>>>>>>> Alakazam?
Because it lifted an island that was calced above Alakazam's previous feats?

 

[FinePoint]

I tend to agree with Zeifyl.
Alakazam, Slowking, and Oranguru should be generally combarable, especially all being in the same sort of class.
If one Slowking has an extreme outlier we could consider it such. Especially if Ash was involved somehow...

 

[Arceus0x]

Okay. And why is Slowking being argued to be >>>>>>>> Alakazam?
Because it lifted an island that was calced above Alakazam's previous feats?

because it lifted an island and Alakazam didn't lift an island. Alakazam has exactly 0 antifeats of him not being capable of doing that, it's just that we never see him lift an island as he never had the chance to lift an island. So in short, its an assumption.

If one Slowking has an extreme outlier we could consider it such. Especially if Ash was involved somehow...

It isn't really an outlier. There is no real indication that it can't be done, we've never seen the limits of psychic types. Considering pokemon like a somewhat outliery happiny and a machamp can move frozen lakes and mountains i don't see why fully evolved psychic pokemon can't do the same considering their thing is lifting stuff with telekinesis. Also this was done by a wild Galarian Slowking, Ash wasn't involved in the feat in any way, he was just there for most of the episode until he got possessed by Shelder and the un-possessed.

 

[FinePoint]

because it lifted an island and Alakazam didn't lift an island. Alakazam has exactly 0 antifeats of him not being capable of doing that, it's just that we never see him lift an island as he never had the chance to lift an island. So in short, its an assumption.

It isn't really an outlier. There is no real indication that it can't be done, we've never seen the limits of psychic types. Considering pokemon like a somewhat outliery happiny and a machamp can move frozen lakes and mountains i don't see why fully evolved psychic pokemon can't do the same considering their thing is lifting stuff with telekinesis. Also this was done by a wild Galarian Slowking, Ash wasn't involved in the feat in any way, he was just there for most of the episode until he got possessed by Shelder and the un-possessed.

Okay. Well, it seems pretty cut-and-dry to me then.

If a wild Slowking can lift an island without assistance, then it should have lifting strength in accordance, and Orangaru and Alakazam would probably scale.

 

[Arceus0x]

Okay. Well, it seems pretty cut-and-dry to me then.

If a wild Slowking can lift an island without assistance, then it should have lifting strength in accordance, and Orangaru and Alakazam would probably scale.

Thank you. Finally someone actually ends up evaluating this. I'mma add this in as an addition to the crt we're working on

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

And this is why I avoid needless drama since it leads to stressful arguments as shown above.

At least the issue seems to have been resolved and the Pokémon verse gets a nice supporting feat it's mid tier mons.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Not all psychic types would scale, just likely Alakazam, Oranguru, and psychic type megas

 

[Arceus0x]

Not all psychic types would scale, just likely Alakazam, Oranguru, and psychic type megas

I'd add in Metagross cause he's a monster, Gardevoir and Gothitelle who are so proficient in TK they bend space itself, Lugia for obvious reasons, Meowstic who are capable of ripping apart tanker ships with their Tk

That's all i can think off atm

 

[XXKINGXX69]

I'd add in Metagross cause he's a monster, Gardevoir and Gothitelle who are so proficient in TK they bend space itself, Lugia for obvious reasons, Meowstic who are capable of ripping apart tanker ships with their Tk

That's all i can think off atm

Gothitelle can bend tens of thousands of lightyears of space, Meowstic would just scale to that individual feat, Gardevoir is unknown although it is strong