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Plot Manipulation Re-Introduction for the Maoh verse
- Thread starter EldemadeDityjon
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EldemadeDityjon
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Lmao
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EldemadeDityjon
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What Graham did was not just limited to Books. Frenzy God ability can be used to Falsify events in the Present also.
Here Events and Cause and effect. Don't come here with an argument of event was changed because of Cause and effect because and is used to separate both things. Also Eques statement of World having a Script and Changing events still Plot Manipulation. Yes it's limited but it is still how Plot Manipulation works. Causality Manipulation page doesn't even says a single thing about Manipulating Events. Here you can clearly see meta Fictional Elements
It's Repeatedly states Frenzy God can change events. Where if he only manipulates Cause and effect it would have stated as he can manipulate Cause and effect because we already have a seperate God for Cause and effect.
I will say this again Manipulating the complete Plot in the MG is clearly impossible until this Point. Because each gods has different Order and they manipulate different aspects.
But still we have Graham changing the Past events as a Feat and same goes for Eques Destiny Hax which was used to create a new event
Anos literally won by destroying that event itself
How is this not meta Fictional Elements. He literally won by destroying the event that created by eques.
I grab him by the neck and he slumps his arms and legs down, but he still shines his eerie, cogwheeled, God's eye.
"Who do you think you are in front of?"
My right hand is dyed with black Bevsd, the root death-killer.
The neck of the cogwheel creaked as I tightened his grip on it.
Immediately after that, the response disappeared, and he was behind me as if he had slipped through.
Hm. I thought I had him.
I looked at Eques with my violet-tinted magic eyes.
"It's the power of Aganzon, the god of madness, isn't it?"
He falsified events and deranged causes and effects.
"Who do you think you are in front of?"
My right hand is dyed with black Bevsd, the root death-killer.
The neck of the cogwheel creaked as I tightened his grip on it.
Immediately after that, the response disappeared, and he was behind me as if he had slipped through.
Hm. I thought I had him.
I looked at Eques with my violet-tinted magic eyes.
"It's the power of Aganzon, the god of madness, isn't it?"
He falsified events and deranged causes and effects.
If Dordilred, the god of sound, Aganzon, who falsifies events, and Galvadrion, who eats all things, stall for time, it will be impossible to destroy them in a mere 60 seconds unless they are caught by surprise.
It's Repeatedly states Frenzy God can change events. Where if he only manipulates Cause and effect it would have stated as he can manipulate Cause and effect because we already have a seperate God for Cause and effect.
I will say this again Manipulating the complete Plot in the MG is clearly impossible until this Point. Because each gods has different Order and they manipulate different aspects.
But still we have Graham changing the Past events as a Feat and same goes for Eques Destiny Hax which was used to create a new event
The <Magic Eyes Of Chaotic Destruction> is far more advantageous than reason, which requires a single event to be set in motion, but does not require that it occur.
Anos literally won by destroying that event itself
"You, who set the destiny, and I, who destroyed the reason. The two forces contradicted each other. Hence, I won."
How is this not meta Fictional Elements. He literally won by destroying the event that created by eques.
YoPercy
He/Him- 371
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I know that. I am talking about the misfits that are stated to defy the gods and oppose order itself which include Anos, Graham and Celis. It was never stated that balzarondo or lay defied the gods order.
EldemadeDityjon
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Nice way to tell me you don't have time to read the thread.
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Yeah, better to close this. As it seems the usage of "script" by eques though not metaphoric wasn't literal either.
Just close this and use it to give eques Acausality 2 interaction
Just close this and use it to give eques Acausality 2 interaction
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Aca 2 even more not reasonable
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I disagree with the whole plot manipulation as MG supporter. If you are using theater, script/plot statements, you are contradicting the whole story and perhaps have 0 knowledge about Eques at all.
No seriously, you are not trying to provoke me, because I won't accept dishonest, Elde at least agreed with me in private and he is OP.
The only thing you are allowed to discuss in this thread is about Garham abilities.
No seriously, you are not trying to provoke me, because I won't accept dishonest, Elde at least agreed with me in private and he is OP.
The only thing you are allowed to discuss in this thread is about Garham abilities.
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So you can explain it..
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Oh sure thing, I did not want to comment further, but you are now forcing me to show the bullshit of this plot hax using this bs.
Let's talk about theater bullshit. Sure tho:
Here is light novel version to confirm how metaphoric it was and you cut the last IMPORTANT SPEECH
And what is the conclusion? IF SO, WHY HE SAID THIS? WANNA SEE WHY? BECAUSE HE WAS PROVOKING MISHA, since he literally has no sense of sadness.
And the whole crap he wanted to say IS THIS, but obviously you are going to ignore this part, ya, I think you did not even understand his whole speech.
Nice man, you failed to understand his speech. Now let's go to other bs statement, “The script of the world”
Firstly, Eques did not talk to Anos, IT WAS LITERALLY A STATEMENT (A SINGLE STATEMENT) referring TO MISHA AND SASHA when they start transforming to their God forms (Goddess of Destruction and Goddess of Creation). He was controlling sasha and Misha was because of the gears in all gods, so he was using it to control delzgade and everest anzetta. Literally, HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH PLOT
Ayo, let's go way more deeper? Script and Plot is BS. This is how someone translate mate:
すべては世界の筋書き通り
すべて refers to as “In General”
せかい refers to as “The world/Universe” Not only this fact, this comes from Buddha reference as “realm governed by one Buddha/God”
すじがきrefers to as synopsis; outline; plot; where the term in this sentence means “Authorship” because plot can't mean in literal sense since it needs “story” or it needs something to back it up, and the complete statement was not even referring to it.
The thing may surprise you at maximum level but if you translated it as whole, the whole meaning goes like this
“'You may have thought that if everything merged with the two castles of Delzogade and Eberlestanzetta as the world had planned, you would take them back, but it is the same for me'.”
If you translate it single by single, it will mean like this: Everything is according to the world's plot or Everything is as it should be in the world.
And the latter makes most sense for the entire translation.
Ya and it makes most sense why it is everything as it should be or as he planned in his own world, due to his damn authority ability, THE GEAR OF FATE.
He is the world himself, he guides Fate to his own liking, dude can manipulate and BFR opponents to the past, so people can't reach him in the future, dude was creating Gods to own liking (but failed/lost afterwards), bro his whole fate manipulation was on a multiversal scale, where in point, no matter which attacks he lands, it can't be dodged.
And you are arguing for it, as it was metafictional element. Ya bullshit, not even this is valid argument. Oh ya, not u using the damn theater thing where the guy was obviously playing with Misha feeling because if you are MG fan literally, you would know Misha is the most sensitive girl in the whole series.
Let's talk about theater bullshit. Sure tho:
Damn, wanna talk how hilarious of you to take this part of the speech? Obviously because you did not read the whole chapter, the damn next line:
Nice cutting this part. You have absolutely no clue about this chapter and what the guy even talking about. And to all people who are saying “Ya, Anos confirmed this bs”. Bla Bla, he was talking foremost to Misha, when Misha asked him why you are cold to Mortals (aka preferring to people who are not immortal)
Here is light novel version to confirm how metaphoric it was and you cut the last IMPORTANT SPEECH
Hearing this, Misha said:
- Even if that order is cruel and chilling to the hearts of mortals?
- That's right. Understand, goddess of creation. All changes of mortals are exactly the same for us. And there is no difference between life and death, or between joy and sadness.
She looked at the deepening god with sadness in her eyes.
- Hmm, so you're saying you don't care what happens to humans, demons, spirits and draconians?
Dilfred didn't answer the question immediately and lowered his gaze slightly.
- No, let me explain so as not to cause confusion,” he looked at me again and said, “To use an analogy understandable to mortals, we are the owners of a theatre building. Both tragedies and comedies are programs that unfold on a stage called life. Attending a play can make you think, cherish ideas, and even philosophize. However, the owner who draws a distinction between tragedy and comedy based on their preferences is foolish.
- I see. The most important thing is that the play is performed?
- That's true. There are no good, or bad programs - both comedy and tragedy are equally beautiful. Gods thesis: the continuation of the play, or in other words, the maintenance of stage order. That many tragedies result is only incidental. We have no intention of harming mortals. - said the god of deepening, as if that were the order of the day.
- This is not a scene. Mortals live in this world and their suffering is real.
- There are also, fascinated by the actors, owners like her. They end up going up on stage themselves. Quirky indeed,” Dilfred parried Misha's words. - Nevertheless, suffering and joy are not eternal. When the curtain of a mortal's life is pulled down, the actor disappears and gets a new role to return to the stage. What is there to be sorrowful about? - he said with a look of utter seriousness.
Dilfred believed with all his heart that no sadness existed.
- Lives are reborn by going through their cycle. The foundations of birth deepen, which means to grow. The end of deepening is death. The basis that has met its end, however, changes, taking a different form. And then it gets a new birth.
- Even if that order is cruel and chilling to the hearts of mortals?
- That's right. Understand, goddess of creation. All changes of mortals are exactly the same for us. And there is no difference between life and death, or between joy and sadness.
She looked at the deepening god with sadness in her eyes.
- Hmm, so you're saying you don't care what happens to humans, demons, spirits and draconians?
Dilfred didn't answer the question immediately and lowered his gaze slightly.
- No, let me explain so as not to cause confusion,” he looked at me again and said, “To use an analogy understandable to mortals, we are the owners of a theatre building. Both tragedies and comedies are programs that unfold on a stage called life. Attending a play can make you think, cherish ideas, and even philosophize. However, the owner who draws a distinction between tragedy and comedy based on their preferences is foolish.
- I see. The most important thing is that the play is performed?
- That's true. There are no good, or bad programs - both comedy and tragedy are equally beautiful. Gods thesis: the continuation of the play, or in other words, the maintenance of stage order. That many tragedies result is only incidental. We have no intention of harming mortals. - said the god of deepening, as if that were the order of the day.
- This is not a scene. Mortals live in this world and their suffering is real.
- There are also, fascinated by the actors, owners like her. They end up going up on stage themselves. Quirky indeed,” Dilfred parried Misha's words. - Nevertheless, suffering and joy are not eternal. When the curtain of a mortal's life is pulled down, the actor disappears and gets a new role to return to the stage. What is there to be sorrowful about? - he said with a look of utter seriousness.
Dilfred believed with all his heart that no sadness existed.
- Lives are reborn by going through their cycle. The foundations of birth deepen, which means to grow. The end of deepening is death. The basis that has met its end, however, changes, taking a different form. And then it gets a new birth.
And what is the conclusion? IF SO, WHY HE SAID THIS? WANNA SEE WHY? BECAUSE HE WAS PROVOKING MISHA, since he literally has no sense of sadness.
And the whole crap he wanted to say IS THIS, but obviously you are going to ignore this part, ya, I think you did not even understand his whole speech.
Nice man, you failed to understand his speech. Now let's go to other bs statement, “The script of the world”
Firstly, Eques did not talk to Anos, IT WAS LITERALLY A STATEMENT (A SINGLE STATEMENT) referring TO MISHA AND SASHA when they start transforming to their God forms (Goddess of Destruction and Goddess of Creation). He was controlling sasha and Misha was because of the gears in all gods, so he was using it to control delzgade and everest anzetta. Literally, HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH PLOT
Ayo, let's go way more deeper? Script and Plot is BS. This is how someone translate mate:
すべては世界の筋書き通り
すべて refers to as “In General”
せかい refers to as “The world/Universe” Not only this fact, this comes from Buddha reference as “realm governed by one Buddha/God”
すじがきrefers to as synopsis; outline; plot; where the term in this sentence means “Authorship” because plot can't mean in literal sense since it needs “story” or it needs something to back it up, and the complete statement was not even referring to it.
The thing may surprise you at maximum level but if you translated it as whole, the whole meaning goes like this
“'You may have thought that if everything merged with the two castles of Delzogade and Eberlestanzetta as the world had planned, you would take them back, but it is the same for me'.”
If you translate it single by single, it will mean like this: Everything is according to the world's plot or Everything is as it should be in the world.
And the latter makes most sense for the entire translation.
Ya and it makes most sense why it is everything as it should be or as he planned in his own world, due to his damn authority ability, THE GEAR OF FATE.
He is the world himself, he guides Fate to his own liking, dude can manipulate and BFR opponents to the past, so people can't reach him in the future, dude was creating Gods to own liking (but failed/lost afterwards), bro his whole fate manipulation was on a multiversal scale, where in point, no matter which attacks he lands, it can't be dodged.
And you are arguing for it, as it was metafictional element. Ya bullshit, not even this is valid argument. Oh ya, not u using the damn theater thing where the guy was obviously playing with Misha feeling because if you are MG fan literally, you would know Misha is the most sensitive girl in the whole series.
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@Fixxed As MG supporter, this bs of script and theater won't be passed. OP of this thread agreed to all this with me in private. You gotta drop this, even @Oblivion_Of_The_Endless and @Tatsumi504 agree it is not even literal.
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Bruh thats long, but like i says above. If thats just stated one times, it is can be metaphor but not if that stated again and again
You miss the part that:
You just take one feats, that is dilfred statement. How about nousgalia and eugo that mention the same???
If dilfred statement is just to make misha understand what he talking aboit, then why nousgalia stated the same?? He is not in situation he must make a metaphor
How about eugo that he cut the curtain in literall event
If we combine every feats that we have, and create a explanation. Then we have, world is the theater for gods, and order are the theater's script that control the every event and everything that happen in the theater's show
And well, good cut, but dilfred dismissed misha's word. And misha after say that, she keep saying about "impresario who are fascinated by actors"
And can you give the LN sauce
My evaluation not just only based on one feats and translate that again and again. I combine every feats that the verse have, and make one big context
EldemadeDityjon
He/Him- 17,026
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For now my argument are these and Book of Traces. I really don't care about other things.
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Dilfred statement is a feat? I am dying, let's stop derailing. Just stop this hilarious argument. Even MG translator who is long term said it is metaphoric. Drop it.
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Acausality 2 gives resistance to fate manipulation by not existing in the future or the past. Bertex femblem induces a predetermined fate that works even beyond the very conception of time
♂
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It is reasonable, actually, if you look how his Gear of Fate authority works.
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I agree with this. In addition to the metaphors, the other points aren't literal either.
Not just graham abilities, use it for eques as well
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Oh yes, let's combine all metaphor and make them some random ability out of nowhere. Even the MG translator said it is metaphor to explain about that deaths and tragedy of mortals don't concern gods. Since for theater owners (Gods) value both Comedy and Tragedy.
Drop it. You did not understand the chapter, and this is fine. There is no plot manipulation at all. Damn "combine a metaphor from 446 chapter and other metaphor from 477 chapter" where both has utterly no damn abstraction in between, and the script one is not even valid either, since in the translation the most valid is "all goes as planned" because it fits the damn context before and afterwards. He was controlling Sasha and Misha because of the gears in all gods, so he used it to control Delzgade and Everest Anzetta.
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More like everything was moving to his liking not him exactly manipulating it considering he didn't have consciousness until graham spawned him which will give eques passive fate manipulation. Keep the abilities coming, I'll compile them
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Ya, I meant by, he guides fate, and it all goes to what he planned/to his own liking. But again, this is literally his authority, and this makes sense since he is world himself and create pre-determined fate set before everything.
I would even lowkey go for omnipresence but eh, idk.
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No, dilfred wasn't toying with misha's feelings there. To him/ most gods, that's actually how they view the world. As long as everything is in order, then joy, sadness is secondary/meaningless
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How tho? The whole speech was her asking for God's peace definition, and she disliked the answer. That's why she said it is not stage, rather real suffering.
EldemadeDityjon
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It was by his Chief God will not by fate manipulation but whatever drop that. It's clearly not just fate manipulation. Anyway concentrate on Graham feat.
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Theatrical speaking, flowery language
Flowery language+ spatial manipulation. He just cut through space and the author described it as lifting a curtain
He just wasn't toying with her feelings. Misha simply took offense at his view.
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EldemadeDityjon
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I was just correcting. Calling order is just fate is bs shit. World runs in a system of Creation and destruction. If Anyway I already said to drop it and concentrate on Graham's feat. Unless that has some Contradiction which I don't know.
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I never called “Order” as fate. I did not even call his Order as fate. Furthermore, I guess you misunderstood what I said. But let's drop it.
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Excuse me, I would like to ask you a few questions.
Thank you..
- How to know that it is Meta-Fiction?
- And what is a metaphor?
Thank you..
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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"a figure of speech in which a word or phrase literally denoting one kind of object or idea is used in place of another to suggest a likeness or analogy between them (as in drowning in money)"
Now, let's look at the statements being used to support plot hax and see how they fit into this description.
"At that moment, the empty space in front of me was cut open. The edge of a silvery white blade could be seen. It was as if someone who had been hiding behind the space had cut the curtain in order to enter our side."
"I put my magical power into the Scythe of the Time God and controlled it with all my might. I swung it with a silvery white light and sliced through the magic circle of the <Time-traveling Levaron>. The whole room turned into a silvery white world. As if the curtain of this world had been slashed, a rift formed in the space where the scythe had been wielded. As if the world were turned inside out and everything was going backwards, various landscapes, tinted in white and silver, passed before my eyes."
Uses "as if", which makes it an analogy.
"According to Deepening God, the world seems to be the stage of a theater for the gods, and you are, after all, the protagonist (main actor/main character) assigned by the impresario based on favoritism. The role is very admirable, but the actor is just ham (ham actor=unskilled actor who overacts)"
Uses "seems to be", which indicates that the world is not literally a stage or theater, but simply appears to be one.
These are all metaphors, and it's very obvious that the characters who discuss these things do not mean them in a literal sense. From the perspective of those the gods rule over, they may look as though they are stagehands that control a theater, but that does not mean they are literally that.
EldemadeDityjon
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Graham feat still Qualifies unless someone has better explanation for something else. Not to mention Castlesvania plot manipulation example comes from same criteria
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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Eques isn't literally manipulating any "plot" though, he's just destroying aspects of reality that were inscribed in a book. The Book of Traces holds the prior events and memories of things that occurred in the world, so naturally, destroying the vessel for those records would destroy the records as well; If you really want to bring other verses into this, we could easily say that verses like DMC, Touhou, or BlazBlue should all get plot hax because they have "books" that contain parts of reality. But they don't, because that massively stretches what plot manipulation even is.
EldemadeDityjon
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- Graham ≠ EQues
- I Never brought up destroying any things argument. Rewrite a Event ≠ Destroying the Book
- Bringing other verses ? Glass does that occasionally check the above Castlesvania thread Fixxed Linked. If it was other staff i wouldn't have brought it. But if Glass agreed with Castlesvania thread and disagrees here I would feel double standards. Also he himself uses other verses as reference in that thread. I am just doing what he done so far.
- Don't ignore Frenzy God Authority literally stated to change events. Also it even has feat for changing event in current reality not just in books.
- Also Whatever changed in book affects the current reality which is already backed up when Anos got sealed by Trace God by manipulating books.
- The argument was not even about book containing reality of Bullshit. Graham Rewrote a Big event which doesn't fit for either Fate manipulation, Law Manipulation, Conceptual manipulation or Causality Manipulation in wiki standard. Only thing that perfectly fits it is Plot Manipulation. Of course you can say it's Text Manipulation but you should know it can be both text manipulation and plot manipulation. Where I don't remember Book of Traces having text as something to store. The scan literally states. Past reflected in the books.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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Aight.
Except... that's obviously what's happening here. Graham is destroying the books and the pages are being torn out, and that's causing reality to be overwritten, because what should have happened in the past has been destroyed.
...Glass never brought up Castlevania though. That's solely on the verse supporters here. Just because he agreed with plot hax for one verse doesn't mean he has to do it for all of them.
Okay???? How is changing events plot manipulation... there are like 5 other abilities on this site that can do that...
Yes. Because the past is stored in the books. So if you destroy the past that is stored within the books, that will cause the present to change (as the present is defined by what occurred in the past).
Bro What
Rewriting the past is textbook causality manipulation. I can spend the time to look through every causality user on the wiki and show you just how many have that ability via manipulating past events. It has literally never been considered plot manipulation.
EldemadeDityjon
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Another appeal to ignorance. Graham never destroyed any shit in the book. He Rewrote the event. He changed a event where he killed Anos mother into Aberneyu killed Anos mother. Whatever events and shit stored inside the book physically exists.
I never said he should agree with all. He brought a different verse to support his arguments in the Castlesvania thread*. You get what I am saying?
List those 5 abilities where you make a different event inside a book from what really is stored.
Am gonna ignore this as another appeal to ignorance.
What Graham changed never changed present when it should have been. Again read the arguments completely instead of ignoring it.
Graham Killed Anos mother
Replaced that events inside the book as Aberneyu Killed Anos mother.
Aberneyu character doesn't even work like that. She is a Kind god who haven't left her Realm until Anos saved her.
This is clear cut text book definition for Plot Manipulation. Character seeing the reality as Fiction in Book while Graham changed Event A Into Event B. Where That didn't affected Present. You can clearly see meta Fictional Elements in this. Well As I said I don't remember Books containing traces in the format of text even if they did Frenzy God Authority can manipulate events in Present/ Orginal reality so it doens't change anything.
You just committing fallacies with ignorance nothing else.
I already told you many times. My argument was not about destroying, or changing past into present.
Graham made a event where he replaced his existence with someone else and Killed his mother.
BUt Originally he was the one who killed here. THE COMPLETE EVENT WAS CHANGED.
False analogy
Don't bring destroying book and Rewriting history to change present blah blah blah. My argument isn't even based on that.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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So he rewrote the event, which you claim is plot hax, but also your argument isn't based on him rewriting anything?? Do you have any idea how little sense that makes?
I can't debate against this shit when your arguments are changing within the same post. I can pick up this argument when you decide on what you're actually arguing for, but until then, I know I'll just be wasting my time dealing with moving goalposts.
EldemadeDityjon
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Yeah sorry my bad. I am actually closing this thread and doing only Graham feat Seperately. I guess it's confusing seeing whole context together.
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