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I could see PP1 from Existence and Nonexistence, other than that is a no
What about using Veneziara to embody a state of both being destroyed and not destroyed? And since it allows logical negations, possibly the same category for any users?

Would that still be able to qualify for the users?
 
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What about using Veneziara to embody a state of both being destroyed and not destroyed? And since it allows logical negations, possibly the same category for any users?

Would that still be able to qualify for the users?
It is still PP1 at best, Existence and Nonexistence

So what exactly qualifies as a logical negation? I thought that two things that cannot coexist and that are opposites would be a logical negation.
Shit like A and non-A, where A is a true state and non-A is false state, for example if the verse somehow established life is a true state and death is its false state then, there you go, logical negation; or just simply death = non/not-life
 
I could see PP1 from Existence and Nonexistence, other than that is a no
I think destroy and not destroyed counts as a separate duality than existence and non existence.
So what exactly qualifies as a logical negation? I thought that two things that cannot coexist and that are opposites would be a logical negation.
You need something stated to have a non version. Like instead of Light and Darkness, it would be Light and Non-Light, Darkness and Non-Darkness.
 
It is still PP1 at best, Existence and Nonexistence
The issue with Veneziara, is that it specifically allows any logical contradictory states to be true at the same time.

This doesn't just regard only one dual system (existence and Nonexistence) but the application in terms of general use has been applied, should've made it clear in the op, but the spell is making the body itself into the possible states;
An infinite number of Revalschned’s sword strikes struck my body. I took a large step forward to face them directly.
“Veneziara.”
My shifting body crossed positions. There was a brief moment of silence. Then, part of the God of Traces’ body started to slide. His divine body had been split into two. Leviangilma was still in its sheath, but its blade of possibilities had slashed apart the Heaven Splitter and enemy before me.
“Ah, I see now,” he mumbled in a low voice, stumbling to his feet. “If the future is restricted so that the sword remains sheathed, then using Veneziara allows you to draw the sword without drawing it...
Veneziara making the body able to draw the sword and not at the same time.
“Running now would only guarantee Jiorhaze’s destruction.” I held out my hand and Arcana handed me Leviangilma. “Veneziara.”
My body started moving in a wave, swaying to and fro. The body of possibilities leaped from the ground and flew towards the falling earthrain.
One flash later, Leviangilma cut through the falling boulders.
Of course, the result was what had occurred. In reality, I never moved from where I stood in Jiorhaze. The falling earthrain was reduced to dust that scattered in the air.
Being There and not there, in two positions at once. Again also mentioned to be causing the body itself to be what the possibilities are.

To make more sense, Anos is standing in the same place, so he would be "here" but also, he is also "not here" because he is also "there". Using that same logic, he would be "there" but also "not there" because he is "here" as well. Simply put, the fact that both Anos' occupy two coordinates, this proves that Anos as a singular being, occupies both "here and there" but also "not here and not there" since both possibilities exist and both are true.

So we already have the negation of; drawing a sword and not drawing a sword, being destroyed and not being destroyed, here and not here and then being there and not there.

These possibilities are shown to logicaly contradict and has done so in multiple types of way. So the idea of it only being pp1, makes no sense as the application covers multiple dual systems. It's fair to assume that it can do so for whatever the user wants to since the very fundamental fact of the spell allows logically contradictory events to occur at the same time.

If it was limited to a single instance, then there would only be the ability to be destroyed and not be destroyed, instead of all these other types of logical negations. And with the fact that it can be layered, the idea multiple logical negations can be stacked one on top of the other, shouldn't be far fetched and highly doable inverse.
Before I could erase his Veneziara form with my Magic Eyes of Destruction, the silencing blade of the scythe flashed. The floor and walls of the room were sliced apart, and cuts were sliced across my body. The moment my Eyes destroyed the multiple layers of Veneziara, the body skewered on the Abolisher of Reason split horizontally across the middle.
 
Yeah I don't think so, Veneziara doesn't apply to only one type of duality. I think it can embody multiple dualities at the same time since it allows mutually contradictory states to coexist.
NLF argument, it is only allow the user to temporary embodies possibility paradox, which includes possibly where one is destroyed and one is not destroyed. The possibility paradox isn't even paraconsistent physiology, the part where it can get PP is embodies possibly where one is destroyed and one is not which is equivalent to existence and nonexistence
 
NLF argument, it is only allow the user to temporary embodies possibility paradox, which includes possibly where one is destroyed and one is not destroyed. The possibility paradox isn't even paraconsistent physiology, the part where it can get PP is embodies possibly where one is destroyed and one is not which is equivalent to existence and nonexistence
What about my new explanation regarding other application of Veneziara?

I think the "here and not here" + "there and not there" would definitely justify pp2
 
Those don't seem like dualities but more so positional possibilities. Particles should not get PP because they are both a wave and a particle, essentially "here and not here" for all it's probability spaces.
 
Those don't seem like dualities but more so positional possibilities. Particles should not get PP because they are both a wave and a particle, essentially "here and not here" for all it's probability spaces.
I don't really see how thats a conclusion with the information given.

Each possibility is true at the same time. Veneziara allows for possibilities to exist, even if logically contradictory as I've already proven. This means there's a possibility for Anos to be in two locations at the same time, allowing for what I explained to be the case.

This "particles" thing isn't really a thing about Veneziara, and I don't see how this refutes the argument.
 
What about my new explanation regarding other application of Veneziara?

I think the "here and not here" + "there and not there" would definitely justify pp2
Here and not here is just one logical duality, idk why you extrapolate it into all dualities
 
Sorry this is a long winded reply, but I wanted to cover everything I could think of.

Here and not here is just one logical duality, idk why you extrapolate it into all dualities
Well, it isn't just "here and not here" but since both positional possibilities become true using Veneziara, it's 2 sets of dualities;
"Here and not here" & "There and not there"

This actually qualifies directly to pp2 as; true, false, true and false. Since if both locations are true, both "here and there" are true. Then in the same understanding, "here and not there" has to be true, as well as "there and not here" but then both would also have to be false as well.

Since if his positional status is "here and not there" then something like "there and not here" must be false, because we are told he never left, therefore "here and not there" has to be true. However, since Veneziara allows logical contradictions, and they both do exist, as if the possibility of him flying into the sky wasn't real then the actions taken against the earthrain wouldn't have happened, there was a possibility of Anos being "there and not here" as well.

Meaning "here" is true but also false since he's "there" is also true. "Not here" would've been false if he wasn't "there" as well. But all can be true and all can be false, meaning that both things can be true and false at the same time.

In conclusion; if he has two coordinates that are true, that allows for the values of true, false and both true and false to all be present at the same time, that is pp2 as written.
...in a fashion that they may occupy both the value "true and false" or "neither true nor false" regarding any of their properties.
Since there are two possibilities, they act as two separate instances of dual states, and since both possibilities are true at the same time, this makes the logical dualities I've listed true, false and true and false since both possibilities exist.

Now the issue is whether this has to apply into all dual systems, now this is never stated to be a requirement within pp2, just that the quote i have above covers those that do exist in nondual states regarding all dual systems, not that being so is a requirement for pp2.
General: Beings which exist beyond the confines of classical logic in general, in a fashion that they may occupy both the value "true and false" or "neither true nor false" regarding any of their properties. This includes characters existing in a nondual state regarding all logical dual systems within an entire level of reality in a way that makes them occupy both or neither state of the dualities in question.
Having "this includes" means that the prior excerpt is primary requirement that covers things like the following sentences.

And I also don't think it's an nlf to suggest that the ability of something to allow logical contradictions of these nature's to cease dependent on the dual system, is actually a fair argument, cause it would be an argument of ignorance to suggest that it can't. Am I supposed to have the words "Veneziara allows contradictions of all logically dual systems" in order for pp2 to apply? I already proved it covers more than several dual system, and the idea that it can cover true, false and true and false at the same time.

To give another explanation; if the ability is to make all the possibilities be true simultaneously, and even when being subjected to logical contradictions, the possibilities can all still be true at the same time, then that means the law of noncontradiction already failed it's job, so why would it succeed in limiting this spell if we already have proof that it couldn't already? Are we just going to assume the law of noncontradiction can apply to it in very niche scenarios? Or is breaking it multiple times enough to suggest it isn't confined by it at all?

To expect such explanations would be unfair considering that not all things have to have verbatim statements. And the spell itself has no stated restrictions on how many dual systems it can encompass, since the spell is about possibilities, not logical dualities. And I'm positive that if it can encompass existence and non-existence, then what else can it not do? What other dual systems would be able to compete with that level of status? How many more dual systems must occur within misfit for pp2?
 
i say again, you are extrapolating this too much, way more than what the power actually is, which is simply a possibility paradox; anyway, i disagree with your extrapolation

...in a fashion that they may occupy both the value "true and false" or "neither true nor false" regarding any of their properties.
This is just truth states, nothing more

General: Beings which exist beyond the confines of classical logic in general, in a fashion that they may occupy both the value "true and false" or "neither true nor false" regarding any of their properties. This includes characters existing in a nondual state regarding all logical dual systems within an entire level of reality in a way that makes them occupy both or neither state of the dualities in question.
 
i say again, you are extrapolating this too much, way more than what the power actually is, which is simply a possibility paradox; anyway, i disagree with your extrapolation


This is just truth states, nothing more
Fine... Thank you for your input! 🙏
 
Even though CRT has been dead for a while, I agree with the addition of Graham's PP1 and the Veneziara users. I also agree with Anos' PP1.
 
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