Plot Manipulation for MG a New Year Present?

[EldemadeDityjon]

@EldemadeDityjon If whataboutisms are the best you can come up with then good luck pushing for plot hax. Bleach and DB threads that repeat the same argument that was already debunked before have no rights going on as long as they should assuming there's nothing new added to the table.

How convenient you ignored the first CRT where you and Fixxed tried to push for plot hax and yet it got rejected, it's like you love to ignore context.

Bring me proof for where Fixxed thread had This argument. Glass at this point you are desperately trying to say whatever comes to your mind without even knowing what was in the first thread.

Ultima's the tier 1 expert, not the plot hax expert, so idk why you keep asking for his inputs and not any other staff here. And I never said my voice is the last call so I appreciate it if you stop twisting my words when I told you 6 people with 2 staffs involved already disagreed with this upgrade, so stop acting like I'm the only one who disagrees when you're not even going to update your own list of agrees to disagrees.

I literally mentioned Elizha and Pegasis so stop with that. I even asked Ant to tag them and also show me where Everything replied to my refute ?

@EldemadeDityjon a CRT for both those characters can be created separately, if you want causality/text manipulation. Please create a new CRT or completely change the OP content.

I will close this thread once I get input from Pegasis and Elizha and Text Manipulation can done in another thread I know.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

2 staffs involved already disagreed with this upgrade, so stop acting like I'm the only one who disagrees when you're not even going to update your own list of agrees to disagrees.

Updated the tally & is Everything12 is your alt so that you can vouch for him? Or did he told you his opinion somewhere?

Only you disgreed here and Everything12 situation is different he Only has one comment and i refuted him and he hasn't made a single reply stating his decision stays the same.

You just counting his vote on your own. This is clear cut you misusing your Authority as Staff. Everything12 should comment on his own if he disgree even after my refute. I don't see a rule in wiki where states one staff can steal other staffs votes & disagree when they are inactive for the day.

 

[Dog3352]

Neutral, inclined to agree. That's just because I don't know everything it takes to have plothax

If what I understand is correct, the book of traces keeps records of the past, God of traces can see the past as if they were "images", and the book of traces and the past contained in it are from a different reality than world Milícia. Does the God of Traces alter the past in the book of traces?

 

[Theglassman12]

@EldemadeDityjon

Characters who will get plot Manipulation based on this are

• Eques & Other Chief Gods ( has frenzy God Authority and shown to rewrite events & he also has book of traces authority)
• Militia (Creator God) & Aberneyu (Destruction God) of these Authority
• Anos & Venozdonor for Being able to destroy the reason and capable making these events never happened if they want.

Fixxed tried to scale anyone being able to destroy reason/order by comparing it to script, you're literally trying to push for Anos have it via the same thing, so yes you are doing the same tactic Fixxed did.

Ok, if they both disagree with plot manipulation then that's that.

Oh so you're accusing me of sockpuppeting then? Good to know we're past the point of argumentation and resorting to accusing people of forging accounts out of the blue because some staff disagreed.

 

[Dog3352]

@EldemadeDityjon

• Eques & Other Chief Gods ( has frenzy God Authority and shown to rewrite events & he also has book of traces authority)
• Militia (Creator God) & Aberneyu (Destruction God) of these Authority
• Anos & Venozdonor for Being able to destroy the reason and capable making these events never happened if they want.

Fixxed tried to scale anyone being able to destroy reason/order by comparing it to script, you're literally trying to push for Anos have it via the same thing, so yes you are doing the same tactic Fixxed did.

Ok, if they both disagree with plot manipulation then that's that.

Oh so you're accusing me of sockpuppeting then? Good to know we're past the point of argumentation and resorting to accusing people of forging accounts out of the blue because some staff disagreed.

I don't know about the order. But reason literally goes beyond any order of Maou Gakuin, naturally any character at the level of reason or beyond will have plothax.
This is simply a totally meaningless accusation.
Reason>>>>>Order = order of traces

 

[KLOL506]

Updated the tally & is Everything12 is your alt so that you can vouch for him? Or did he told you his opinion somewhere?

Ay yo dude what the ****

 

[Zencha9]

as usual
i disagree due to everything and galss's reasonings

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

@EldemadeDityjon

• Eques & Other Chief Gods ( has frenzy God Authority and shown to rewrite events & he also has book of traces authority)
• Militia (Creator God) & Aberneyu (Destruction God) of these Authority
• Anos & Venozdonor for Being able to destroy the reason and capable making these events never happened if they want.

Fixxed tried to scale anyone being able to destroy reason/order by comparing it to script, you're literally trying to push for Anos have it via the same thing, so yes you are doing the same tactic Fixxed did.

Now you are strawmaning and ignoring like you always do. Fixxed thread has nothing to do with mine. Try better next time when you understand what you are talking about. Eques≠ Graham. Man really? Is this your best comeback when I asked you for proof? I asked proof for explanation for where My thread has same things as Fixxed. You literary failing to provide proof for whatever you are claiming.

Anos and Venozdonor getting Plot Manipulation based on Graham's feats ≠ Fixxed Thread which had complete different Explanation and statements to get plot manipulation for Anos and Venozdonor.

Now whatever you claimed doesn't even relate to what you previously claimed.

Ok, if they both disagree with plot manipulation then that's that.

Yes then that.

Oh so you're accusing me of sockpuppeting then? Good to know we're past the point of argumentation and resorting to accusing people of forging accounts out of the blue because some staff disagreed.

Again argument from your ignorance. I made that comment because you literally counted Everything12 vote Even without him replying back to my refute. And I even asked you Numerous times where he replied to my refute you have failed to provide proof for that.

You are a staff act like one everyone who can read the replies can see who is at wrong and who was forcibly tried to close the thread without even tried to give me a chance to get other staff input.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Ay yo dude what the ****

Not saying he was using sock I just said that because he counted Everything12 vote without his permission. When I refuted Everything12 comment. What i was trying to say everything12 should himself disgree with the thread not that Glass forcibly count his vote for Granted. I wasn't really trying to say Sock don't misunderstand what I said.

 

[Planck69]

Reading through the thread, theglassman12's reasoning makes more sense to me. Disagree for reasons above.

Also, like many people have said, "but other verses have it" is not a proper argument in and of itself.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Reading through the thread, theglassman12's reasoning makes more sense to me. Disagree for reasons above.

Just want to clarify this.
Glassman trying to imply Books = Scrolls in Db which completely wrong

Books are Seperate documents and why can't it be Narrative of themselves and he even brought up timeline and other things how does that Counter Fixxed argument

Isnt even castlevania and vampire D like that, there are no proof about the book view reality like fiction

That book not just contain events of the world, but make the events inscribed in that

If event is part of what that written in book, its literally make the event part of the book's narrative, that definitely metafictional

And also events is not go linear in that book, but stacked in every page and every fragment of page in that book. Its mean the book not just contain the event and make it like pocket dimension, but make the event a part of that narrative

Let me elaborate, for you to get plot hax via book, it usually leads to R>F difference sort of.

If the book of traces is simply recording things, I really don't see where plot manipulation comes in. If the past exists nowhere but in the book, then yes, I can see plot hax. Simply being connected to it without context isn't.

Personally I do feel it's nonsense, this rule didn't exist until Maou Gakuin crts for plot came into existence but ehh.

Could you take a look at this once more Glass interpretation is clear cut wrong comparing Book of Traces to scrolls because Book is not connected to past. It's just stores the Past as documentary.

Narrative - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

A narrative, story, or tale is any account of a series of related events or experiences,[1][2] whether nonfictional (memoir, biography, news report, documentary, travelogue, etc.) or fictional (fairy tale, fable, legend, thriller, novel, etc.).[3][4][5] Narratives can be presented through a sequence of written or spoken words, through still or moving images, or through any combination of these.

Also Frenzy God Authority which Graham was using clear cut has feat for this explanation.

Text Manipulation

Text Manipulation - the ability to allow work on events recorded in text form, or translated into the reality of events or phenomena. Depending on the forms of this ability is may be related to the manipulation of causality, manipulation of information, or even a direct impact on the reality...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Create/modify the reality in the writing of books - translated into the reality of all the events recorded in the book (while accompanied by the creation of the new world), or the manipulation of the characters and events of the real world, comparable with that as a regular writer can manipulate the characters of his novel.

Also, like many people have said, "but other verses have it" is not a proper argument in and of itself.

Nah i was just comparing the similarity but my argument are not all of that. @Theglassman12 does this occasionally by comparing different series so I thought if a staff can do it then can't I. If that's really bad then fine I will stop comparing if that's really bad.

 

[KLOL506]

Not saying he was using sock I just said that because he counted Everything12 vote without his permission. When I refuted Everything12 comment. What i was trying to say everything12 should himself disgree with the thread not that Glass forcibly count his vote for Granted. I wasn't really trying to say Sock don't misunderstand what I said.

None of this is grounds for making extreme accusations like this. I hope you understand the severity of this situation.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

None of this is grounds for making extreme accusations like this. I hope you understand the severity of this situation.

I was just giving a analogy bro. His comments are still there & you can read them he clearly tried to close the thread without Letting me get other staff inputs. and I am sorry if you felt like I made a mistake for saying that.

Anyway isn't this Wrong to forcibly close the thread in wiki standard without Letting OP to get more inputs?

 

[KLOL506]

I was just giving a analogy bro. His comments are still there & you can read them he clearly tried to close the thread without Letting me get other staff inputs. and I am sorry if you felt like I made a mistake for saying that.

In case you haven't realized, you shouldn't make analogies like this either, regardless of what you think the opposing party did, it sets up a dangerous precedence to follow.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

In case you haven't realized, you shouldn't make analogies like this either, regardless of what you think the opposing party did, it sets up a dangerous precedence to follow.

Fine my mistake then I am sorry for that.

But You know i could have just reported him to human resources for using his authority Wrongly and trying to forcibly close the thread but I stopped. Its new Year I didn't wanted to engage or report someone for atleast. But he still kept counting Everything12 vote without his permission & tried to close the thread.

 

[Everything12]

My opinion is unchanged.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

My opinion is unchanged.

Isnt even castlevania and vampire D like that, there are no proof about the book view reality like fiction

That book not just contain events of the world, but make the events inscribed in that

If event is part of what that written in book, its literally make the event part of the book's narrative, that definitely metafictional

And also events is not go linear in that book, but stacked in every page and every fragment of page in that book. Its mean the book not just contain the event and make it like pocket dimension, but make the event a part of that narrative

Can I some input on this why isn't this applicable?

 

[Tatsumi504]

@Tatsumi504 I seriously wanna know what mental gymnastics do you have to pull to make the grimoires in Castlevanias in anyway shape or form connected to the book of traces because they couldn’t be further apart in mechanics if you tried.

Like i said, this isn't how i wished to start a new year and I'm definitely not ready to start it off with an argument against you.

Incase you didn't read/ understand my comment completely, I don't agree with this and if both castlevania and Vampire Hunter D' plot manipulation is for the same reason as showcased here then i don't agree with it either.

Two wrongs don't make a right. I haven't touched castlevania nor Vampire Hunter D before so i obviously know nothing about it besides what's presented here so obviously i can be wrong but still i refuse to accept double standards.

I disagree with this CRT as it just doesn't fit what i consider plot manipulation and even more than whataboutism, it relies on equalising something in fiction to real life.
If castlevania and vampire hunter D's plot mmanipulation is legit then fine, if not nuke both as well, that's all.

 

[Tatsumi504]

So explain why Anos' mom died from someone else if it's supposedly another reality? Because the evidence suggests they aren't really alternate realities.

Why do both you and Eldemade have such bad blood between each other.
Anyway you're wrong about something, Book of traces≠ Time scrolls in DB, they're in no way shape or form close to each other as the book of traces is merely the past inscribed as traces. It doesn't affect the past in anyway but at the same time the traces inside it are actually real/true events/accounts of what actually transpired in the past.

Luna, Anos mom died at graham's hand. Graham changing that in the book of traces didn't affect the past whatsoever but the reality inside the book of traces has effectively been changed.

I don't have scans but the proof of the past not being affected is literally there where anos uses Gilieriam Naviem to destroy all the traces yet everything was still there in the real world.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Why do both you and Eldemade have such bad blood between each other.

Becuase they worship different chaos gods

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Why do both you and Eldemade have such bad blood between each other.

Just to point out he is the one who tried to close the thread before i get other staff input.

Anyway you're wrong about something, Book of traces≠ Time scrolls in DB, they're in no way shape or form close to each other as the book of traces is merely the past inscribed as traces. It doesn't affect the past in anyway but at the same time the traces inside it are actually real/true events/accounts of what actually transpired in the past.

Luna, Anos mom died at graham's hand. Graham changing that in the book of traces didn't affect the past whatsoever but the reality inside the book of traces has effectively been changed.

I don't have scans but the proof of the past not being affected is literally there where anos uses Gilieriam Naviem to destroy all the traces yet everything was still there in the real world.

I wish who started saying I agree with @Theglassman12 & disgreeing with this thread takes a look at this again and gives thier own input instead of what glass made up on his own pure headcanon of Book of Traces = Time scrolls of DB.

 

[Theglassman12]

@EldemadeDityjon the end result is still the same when you’re pushing for Anos getting plot hax because he destroys reason and order with no connections whatsoever. You using the book of traces with no connections to reason and the fact that nothing you’ve provided explains anything metafictional just shows how much you’re really desperate to push for this upgrade.

So yeah you’ve lost any and all respect I’ve had for you as a debater. If this is the length you will push because a staff member told you this isn’t enough evidence then good luck trying to change my mind on this debate, because all you did was dig your own hole with this upgrade.

Here’s the difference between me doing comparisons, I actually know what I’m talking about with the series because I know the context, you clearly do not for Castlevania so do not even try to compare franchises you don’t know shit about.

@Tatsumi504 so you simultaneously do not know either VHD and Castlevania but you also do not like double standards when a franchise that have completely different reasonings than MG has plot hax… riiight.

I just don’t like it when people try to avoid the standards and try to push for abilities with the vaguest of interpretations for abilities, simple as that.

@DaReaperMan i worship only one god, and he’s the antithesis to chaos smfh.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

@EldemadeDityjon the end result is still the same when you’re pushing for Anos getting plot hax because he destroys reason and order with no connections whatsoever. You using the book of traces with no connections to reason and the fact that nothing you’ve provided explains anything metafictional just shows how much you’re really desperate to push for this upgrade.

This is best you can do when you couldn't Prove where My argument this thread has been rejected previously. Nice way of conceding with burden of proof.

So yeah you’ve lost any and all respect I’ve had for you as a debater. If this is the length you will push because a staff member told you this isn’t enough evidence then good luck trying to change my mind on this debate, because all you did was dig your own hole with this upgrade.

You have already lost all my respect as a Staff when you forcibly tried to close to the thread based on only your Disagreement and you even didn't let Everything12 comment on his own and counted his vote on your own.

Here’s the difference between me doing comparisons, I actually know what I’m talking about with the series because I know the context, you clearly do not for Castlevania so do not even try to compare franchises you don’t know shit about.

Yet I don't see you countering Tastumi correcting you regarding book of traces ≠ Time scrolls.

I already counted your vote as Disagreement I don't why you are acting like I am trying to convince you now. I was just pointing out your mistakes and bias towards me when you tried closing the thread.

 

[Vasco]

It's 3 staff disagreement now.
Glassman
Everything
Planck

 

[Dereck03]

Hahahahaha, the chaos here is sooo funny.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

It's 3 staff disagreement now.
Glassman
Everything
Planck

Everything12 and Planks not replied back to my questions. Why are you people are so rush to close this CRT?

 

[Vasco]

They already gave reasons why they disagreed.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

They already gave reasons why they disagreed.

What reasons? Tatsumi literally pointed out why Glass reasons are wrong. i asked them a different questions both are not even same.

 

[DaReaperMan]

They might disagree with Glass' reasons being wrong lol

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

They might disagree with Glass' reasons being wrong lol

" They might " but we wouldn't know until they reply.

But atleast they should reply. Just saying close this thread bro ? We have tons of thread open for days waiting for other staff to agree. This is clear cut bias to ask for certain thread to be closed without even clarifying what was debating.

If they disagree atleast they should try to give the reason why Tastumi Explanation is wrong.

 

[The_Emperor4th]

I'm neutral

 

[DaReaperMan]

" They might " but we wouldn't know until they reply.

But atleast they should reply. Just saying close this thread bro ? We have tons of thread open for days waiting for other staff to agree. This is clear cut bias to ask for certain thread to be closed without even clarifying what was debating.

If they disagree atleast they should try to give the reason why Tastumi Explanation is wrong.

I dunno man, last I heard any votes, even if they happened before any arguments happened, are counted and can't be removed...

Yes I think that's... how can I put this lightly... dumb, but that's the last I heard of votes!

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

This thread is chaos in its purest form.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I dunno man, last I heard any votes, even if they happened before any arguments happened, are counted and can't be removed...

Yes I think that's... how can I put this lightly... dumb, but that's the last I heard of votes!

Well Plank & others clear cut said " i agree with Glassman reason" but later Tatsumi corrected that what glass said is completely wrong. So atleast I would like to hear their own reasoning instead of agreeing with glass reasoning which got Debunked.

 

[Fixxed]

@Fixxed So explain why Anos' mom died from someone else if it's supposedly another reality? Because the evidence suggests they aren't really alternate realities.

Arnos' mom death in real world, graham also change the event in real world

Dont get wrong when the OP say this

Graham altered the Event happened in past which eas stored inside Book of Traces. Originally Graham killed Anos mother Luna and that event was already existed as past event.

Graham not change event in book of traces, but altered event in real world, that the real world event is already stored in that book. What graham do is change the event in real world but just add more event in the book

I think the OP already explain that, changing the event/content in the book is impossible

Past cannot be changed Gods has a Order of Traces which works like documentary or Narrative keeps the past as Past which is automatically returns Past to Past itself if someone alters it. Especially Changing contents in Book Of Traces is Stated to be impossible even if you try to Change the Past.

 

[Sacchan]

Ah yes, chaos in it purest form.

count me as neutral since im waiting for ultima & DontTalk input

 

[Tatsumi504]

so you simultaneously do not know either VHD and Castlevania but you also do not like double standards when a franchise that have completely different reasonings than MG has plot hax… riiight.

I just don’t like it when people try to avoid the standards and try to push for abilities with the vaguest of interpretations for abilities, simple as that.

I'm not pushing for anything, I'm saying I disagree with both this CRT and plot manipulation for the verses that were used as an example if they're based on the same reasoning but if those verses plot manipulation is actually genuine then it can stay because I know nothing about it and thus, I'm not qualified to judge

 

[Antvasima]

So if I have understood correctly, Glassman, Everything12, and Planck69 have rejected this thread. Sbould we close it now then? It seems extremely unlikely that this revision will get accepted.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

So if I have understood correctly, Glassman, Everything12, and Planck69 have rejected this thread. Sbould we close it now then? It seems extremely unlikely that this revision will get accepted.

Only Glassman rejected with his headcanons of Book of Traces and Everything12 and Planks yet to reply to my refute. I would prefer Pegasis and Dontalk opinions more as they are the one who has more knowledge on the topic.

 

[The_Emperor4th]

Who the hell is Pegasis?