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Plot Manipulation for MG a New Year Present?

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Theglassman12 said:
Not really without the metafictional context necessary like changing the roles of the characters or the setting of the story or rewriting the script in a meta context, a book that contains events of the real world and changing the past with it isn't plot hax, just affecting a world.
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Isnt even castlevania and vampire D like that, there are no proof about the book view reality like fiction

That book not just contain events of the world, but make the events inscribed in that

If event is part of what that written in book, its literally make the event part of the book's narrative, that definitely metafictional

And also events is not go linear in that book, but stacked in every page and every fragment of page in that book. Its mean the book not just contain the event and make it like pocket dimension, but make the event a part of that narrative
 
Tatsumi504 said:
Definitely not how i wanted to start a new year. Anyway like i said before 2 wrongs don't make a right so just nuke castlevania's plot hax
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Just so that you know i do agree with both castlevania and Vampire D based on reality existing inside the books. It's just I hate how people using double standards here. Even plot manipulation page just explains how one viewing Another reality as Fiction and narrative is enough to get plot manipulation. Where two verses already got that for same reason as MG. WHAT i am doing is just using them as examples.
 
Before nuking both, let's wait for supporters to send evidences for it
 
DaReaperMan said:
sigh

Before nuking both, please follow procedure and make a bloody CRT on the matter of other verses becuase whataboutism is not, and never will be, an argument.
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Dareaperman, honestly I think OP want this: Nuke both or upgrade tree of them
 
InfiniteDay said:
It's already been explained why the other cases are different.

Disagree fra.
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They are not actually. Glass clearly made wrong interpretation. Book of traces exists as different Reality it has nothing to do with Past of real world and there is no event manipulation ability in wiki the feats literally backs up my claims. What D did and Graham clear cut same feats.
 
InfiniteDay said:
It's already been explained why the other cases are different.
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Can you tell me where in the hell event manipulation ability exists in wiki except plot and text manipulation. and Manipulating contents in books falls under 5th possible uses of text manipulation which leads to plot manipulation page as subset.
 
@EldemadeDityjon Literally every single example I brought up that would apply for plot hax is meta fictional aspects.

And they can affect the time scrolls to affect the past as well, DBH makes this abundantly clear.

So you’re ignorant to the story of Grimoire of souls, that’s what’s you’re getting at with this comparison. Good to know on that.

No you literally said book does not equal scroll and yet you said the narrative can be anything, implying the scroll and book means absolutely nothing when it comes to the argument for plot hax. So you’re shooting your argument in the foot here.

“Like a narrative” isn’t enough, prove the metafictional aspects are explicit enough or stop making this point.

Both literally controls the past with any alterations to the object, they function very similar to each other.

What part of “it’s the entire plot of Grimoire of souls” do you not understand? Do you need me to dumb it down to you like a child because I made it very clear what I said.

Ah so like what you’re doing by being super ignorant to both Vampire Hunter D and Castlevania by not understanding the full context? Congratulations you played yourself.

Riiiiiight, keep telling me I’m wrong without putting in the effort to prove any metafictional elements at all. That’s totally gonna convince me here.

@Tatsumi504 I seriously wanna know what mental gymnastics do you have to pull to make the grimoires in Castlevanias in anyway shape or form connected to the book of traces because they couldn’t be further apart in mechanics if you tried.
 
Theglassman12 said:
@EldemadeDityjon Literally every single example I brought up that would apply for plot hax is meta fictional aspects.

And they can affect the time scrolls to affect the past as well, DBH makes this abundantly clear.

So you’re ignorant to the story of Grimoire of souls, that’s what’s you’re getting at with this comparison. Good to know on that.

No you literally said book does not equal scroll and yet you said the narrative can be anything, implying the scroll and book means absolutely nothing when it comes to the argument for plot hax. So you’re shooting your argument in the foot here.

“Like a narrative” isn’t enough, prove the metafictional aspects are explicit enough or stop making this point.

Both literally controls the past with any alterations to the object, they function very similar to each other.

What part of “it’s the entire plot of Grimoire of souls” do you not understand? Do you need me to dumb it down to you like a child because I made it very clear what I said.

Ah so like what you’re doing by being super ignorant to both Vampire Hunter D and Castlevania by not understanding the full context? Congratulations you played yourself.

Riiiiiight, keep telling me I’m wrong without putting in the effort to prove any metafictional elements at all. That’s totally gonna convince me here.
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  1. You claimed Book = Scrolls
  2. Scroll connect to real history not stores them and book of traces doesn't work like that it's replicate complete world copy. It's like a parallel reality but exists inside the book
  3. Vampire D manipulates events in akashic records to make a event happen and same goes for Graham. There are two Feats and 4 statement for manipulating events.
  4. Also I already explained we have order or Casualty , Order for fate and other orders. This frenzy God Authority is clear cut stated to be order which falsifies EVENTS
  5. Text Manipulation 5th possible uses clear cut backs up my point and my points has feats not just statement. My whole arguments comes from plot manipulation and text manipulation ( which also includes plot manipulation explanation page)
Theglassman12 said:
@Tatsumi504 I seriously wanna know what mental gymnastics do you have to pull to make the grimoires in Castlevanias in anyway shape or form connected to the book of traces because they couldn’t be further apart in mechanics if you tried.
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Dude stop being aggressive and I have re checked the links in Alucard profile don't see any of what it's written. If Tatsumi watches the videos I am pretty sure he would make a downgrade thread heck it doens't even have feats like how Graham completely replaced the events 💀. Or unless i am missing something.
 

Text Manipulation​

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Graham feats clear cut backs up complete explanation of this. He manipulated events inside the book and frenzy God Authority even worked outside the book in real world.
 
I claim books and scrolls are meaningless here for the argument as what form they take is absolutely irrelevant.
And this book also has ties to the real world as changing the book affects the past, doesn't sound like an alternate universe to me.
How about you get the full context from the verse before saying shit like this, the more you whataboutism the less your argument holds up. Not only that but VHD's plot hax is already being contested so if that goes through this argument is null and void.
Bolding and capitalizing events doesn't help your argument, it just solidifies the fact it's treated like time scrolls.
Ok so you're basically lying and trying to twist the words on the text manipulation page to fit your narrative, is there anything else here that isn't already said because at this point I'm just gonna close the thread since you provided nothing new.

So the text being altered in the grimoires while the creatures of chaos are inside of the books mean nothing to you? Good to know you didn't actually rechecked it. Ok, if he did I'll explain why he's wrong since the entire premise of grimoire of souls has absolutely no connection to the book of traces.
 
I suggest causality and text manipulation in case plot manipulation won't work, as well as resistances to both characters. Therefore, I wish the arguments about the two irrelevant characters should be done in their respective threads and not here.
 
Theglassman12 said:
I claim books and scrolls are meaningless here for the argument as what form they take is absolutely irrelevant.
And this book also has ties to the real world as changing the book affects the past, doesn't sound like an alternate universe to me.
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Already explained it why both are different I will wait for staff who try to actually listen to what I was talking about instead of trying to close the thread because of personal issues.
Theglassman12 said:
How about you get the full context from the verse before saying shit like this, the more you whataboutism the less your argument holds up. Not only that but VHD's plot hax is already being contested so if that goes through this argument is null and void.
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You does this always so kindly don't give advice to others unless you stop using whataboutism..
Theglassman12 said:
Bolding and capitalizing events doesn't help your argument, it just solidifies the fact it's treated like time scrolls.
Ok so you're basically lying and trying to twist the words on the text manipulation page to fit your narrative,
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You are the only one who is ignoring what Graham did and what are addressed in the OP. I will wait for other staffs input.
Theglassman12 said:
is there anything else here that isn't already said because at this point I'm just gonna close the thread since you provided nothing new.
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Are you the only staff in the wiki who knows about plot manipulation? Why are you rushing to close the thread. I asked Ultima I will wait for his comments. This is called utilising your authority as a staff in a wrong way just so you disagree you can automatically close the thread? So i can't wait for other staff input? Great to know.
 
Fixxed said:
Isnt even castlevania and vampire D like that, there are no proof about the book view reality like fiction

That book not just contain events of the world, but make the events inscribed in that

If event is part of what that written in book, its literally make the event part of the book's narrative, that definitely metafictional

And also events is not go linear in that book, but stacked in every page and every fragment of page in that book. Its mean the book not just contain the event and make it like pocket dimension, but make the event a part of that narrative
Click to expand...
I still not understand about why this cant get plot or text manipulation

The event is literally inscribed in the book, make it part of book's narrative
 
Theglassman12 said:
Not really without the metafictional context necessary like changing the roles of the characters or the setting of the story or rewriting the script in a meta context, a book that contains events of the real world and changing the past with it isn't plot hax, just affecting a world.
Click to expand...
You're making plot hax overly strict. If the characters and events are literally in the book then it already qualifies for the metafictional aspect. Strong evidence is required for verses that do not follow this procedure.

If I pick a book, and then I start writing the plot in it, maybe from my view, they're just words. But let's assume within the book, the things I've written are actually real and dictates the events, characters, words they'll say, protagonists, antagonist, etc in it, that's controlling the plot no? what metafictional element do you want again, a statement like "I'm writing the script/story"? isn't that what I'm doing?
 
Sniper670 said:
You're making plot hax overly strict. If the characters and events are literally in the book then it already qualifies for the metafictional aspect. Strong evidence is required for verses that do not follow this procedure.

If I pick a book, and then I start writing the plot in it, maybe from my view, they're just words. But let's assume within the book, the things I've written are actually real and dictates the events, characters, words they'll say, protagonists, antagonist, etc in it, that's controlling the plot no? what metafictional element do you want again, a statement like "I'm writing the script/story"? isn't that what I'm doing?
Click to expand...
Then why are you disgreeing with my thread ,😭
Same thing what you wrote here is happening in Book of Traces.
 
Let me elaborate, for you to get plot hax via book, it usually leads to R>F difference sort of.

If the book of traces is simply recording things, I really don't see where plot manipulation comes in. If the past exists nowhere but in the book, then yes, I can see plot hax. Simply being connected to it without context isn't.

Personally I do feel it's nonsense, this rule didn't exist until Maou Gakuin crts for plot came into existence but ehh.
 
Sniper670 said:
Let me elaborate, for you to get plot hax via book, it usually leads to R>F difference sort of.

If the book of traces is simply recording things, I really don't see where plot manipulation comes in. If the past exists nowhere but in the book, then yes, I can see plot hax. Simply being connected to it without context isn't.
Click to expand...
It's not connected to past. Book of traces pages inscribed the events and whatever happened in the world like a documentary. You can call it a different narrative.
Sniper670 said:
Personally I do feel it's nonsense, this rule didn't exist until Maou Gakuin crts for plot came into existence but ehh.
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I feel you.
 
@EldemadeDityjon did a piss poor job explaining why they're different but whatever.

And no examples on me supposedly doing this, almost like you cannot compare my arguments to yours.

Graham changing the past to where someone else killed Anos' mom isn't plot hax, that's just classic time travel shenanigans of messing with the timeline.

Wow so you completely ignored Everything12's comment as well where he disagreed too? Good to know you conveniently ignore other folk's opinions to twist your narrative.

@Fixxed Nothing about castlevania's plot hax remotely has any similarities with the Book of traces as the latter is explicitly controlling the entire world and changing the past, where the grimoires in Castlevania are literal story books that changes absolutely nothing in the real world should anyone try to tinker with the grimoires in the first place.

@Sniper670 Your example literally mentions metafictional aspects like protagonist and antagonists, the Book of Traces has no mention of anything like this, or even a mention that it's a literal storybook that tells a tale of an event that's either fictional or based on real events, etc. The Book of Traces has a connection to the real world in the sense that it changes the past. Nothing about it mentions anything about "oh I can rewrite the past on what role Anos is and make him a side character" or "Oh this setting will change to my liking" or "oh the text that's written where the heroes won will be warped and changed to the point the villains are actually winning instead of the heroes of this story". Causing a timeline change like having someone else kill Anos' mom isn't plot hax, it's just timeline shenanigans.
 
Theglassman12 said:
@EldemadeDityjon did a piss poor job explaining why they're different but whatever.
Click to expand...
Just say you can't understand what i am saying that's it.
Theglassman12 said:
And no examples on me supposedly doing this, almost like you cannot compare my arguments to yours.
Click to expand...
No you are at this point just trying to close the thread based on your authority as a staff without letting me get other staff input.
Theglassman12 said:
Graham changing the past to where someone else killed Anos' mom isn't plot hax, that's just classic time travel shenanigans of messing with the timeline.
Click to expand...
Time travel? Show me scans where it was stated to be time travel. You now making headcanon which doesn't exist in the verse nor in my scans.
Theglassman12 said:
Wow so you completely ignored Everything12's comment as well where he disagreed too? Good to know you conveniently ignore other folk's opinions to twist your narrative.
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I literally replied to him and he hasn't made a refute to mine So how that's ignoring anything. Only one who is making headcanon of time travel argument Inside the book and ignoring contents in the OP is you.
 
Theglassman12 said:
@Fixxed Nothing about castlevania's plot hax remotely has any similarities with the Book of traces as the latter is explicitly controlling the entire world and changing the past, where the grimoires in Castlevania are literal story books that changes absolutely nothing in the real world should anyone try to tinker with the grimoires in the first place.
Click to expand...
Bruh, book traces is make the events part of what written in that. Its literall make events part of it narrative

Hah??? Arnos use his ability to destroy the event in that book, and yeah the real worls not get effect. He destroy sun, stars, moon, and the earth but the real world not get effect. Proof?? Its already on OP

The book and real world is other reality
 
Theglassman12 said:
@Sniper670 Your example literally mentions metafictional aspects like protagonist and antagonists, the Book of Traces has no mention of anything like this, or even a mention that it's a literal storybook that tells a tale of an event that's either fictional or based on real events, etc. The Book of Traces has a connection to the real world in the sense that it changes the past. Nothing about it mentions anything about "oh I can rewrite the past on what role Anos is and make him a side character" or "Oh this setting will change to my liking" or "oh the text that's written where the heroes won will be warped and changed to the point the villains are actually winning instead of the heroes of this story". Causing a timeline change like having someone else kill Anos' mom isn't plot hax, it's just timeline shenanigans.
Click to expand...
A staff ignoring whole context and making new headcanon to the story is Crazy where neither I nor the narratively stated anything about time travel nor anything about Book of Traces changing any past and creating time paradox. Funny how Timeline messing up doesn't work on MG and only one past Exists throughout the story because of Order.
 
@EldemadeDityjon no, your argument doesn't work because nothing you said explains why books and scrolls being different affects the argument I made in the slightest.

You already have 6 disagreements on you (Everything, me, Fujiwara, Vasco, Reaper, and Sniper) with 2 staff members already disagreeing. I'm only saying I'll close the thread because you didn't bring anything new to the table.

Read what I said, I literally said time travel shenanigans, not that they time traveled, him killing Anos' mom with someone else is time travel shenanigans.

Ok so you've proven to me once and for all you're a hypocrite since you ignore everything on castlevania stuff while claiming I'm apparently ignoring context when the context isn't enough.

Order means nothing here, so you're just grasping straws at this point.

I'll give you one last chance to bring something new to the table because all of this is already addressed. If you're not bringing anything new compared to last time then I'm closing this thread because everyone already disagreed with plot hax before and you didn't add anything else. So having this CRT go on any more is a waste of time.

@Fixxed So explain why Anos' mom died from someone else if it's supposedly another reality? Because the evidence suggests they aren't really alternate realities.
 
Theglassman12 said:
@EldemadeDityjon no, your argument doesn't work because nothing you said explains why books and scrolls being different affects the argument I made in the slightest.

You already have 6 disagreements on you (Everything, me, Fujiwara, Vasco, Reaper, and Sniper) with 2 staff members already disagreeing. I'm only saying I'll close the thread because you didn't bring anything new to the table.

Read what I said, I literally said time travel shenanigans, not that they time traveled, him killing Anos' mom with someone else is time travel shenanigans.

Ok so you've proven to me once and for all you're a hypocrite since you ignore everything on castlevania stuff while claiming I'm apparently ignoring context when the context isn't enough.

Order means nothing here, so you're just grasping straws at this point.

I'll give you one last chance to bring something new to the table because all of this is already addressed. If you're not bringing anything new compared to last time then I'm closing this thread because everyone already disagreed with plot hax before and you didn't add anything else. So having this CRT go on any more is a waste of time.

@Fixxed So explain why Anos' mom died from someone else if it's supposedly another reality? Because the evidence suggests they aren't really alternate realities.
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It isn't been not even a day and Why are you rushing to close the thread before Ultima comments here. Are you scared of something because he may have different takes than you?. Everything didn't even replied back to me regarding my refute. Only you are acting based on your own bias.

i will ask the ant to Tag other staff and stop acting like only your opinion matters over other staff. Or are you trying to Say your opinion is the only valid one when comes to plot manipulation and others staff doesn't get to say anything.?
 
Last edited:
I never said my opinion matters more, I said to bring something new because you used the same argument before and it was rejected heavily.
 
Theglassman12 said:
You already have 6 disagreements on you (Everything, me, Fujiwara, Vasco, Reaper, and Sniper) with 2 staff members already disagreeing. I'm only saying I'll close the thread because you didn't bring anything new to the table.
Click to expand...
Please don't. I offered alternative abilities which is causality and text manipulation and I assume you are not against it.
 
Theglassman12 said:
I never said my opinion matters more, I said to bring something new because you used the same argument before and it was rejected heavily.
Click to expand...
Funny how DB , bleaçh and other verses threads will be open for days and like 10-15 pages arguments goes on for their verses but you are literally trying to close this thread just because you disagree with the thread. And you are not even giving me chance to get Ultima opinion, nor Elizha or Pegasis. Not to mention Everything has not been replied back to my refutal.

Also Last thread was closed based on my own request stop acting like it was rejected.

No what you trying to do clearly implying that Your Voice is last call for plot manipulation where I can point out multiple threads where multiple staffs disagree with some topic and multiple staffs agrees that same topic. Not always every staffs opinion stays the same as other staff. So stop making it sound like it's always your opinion > others. Clear cut even I mentioned Ultima name twice you still tried to close the thread without even hearing his input.
 
@EldemadeDityjon If whataboutisms are the best you can come up with then good luck pushing for plot hax. Bleach and DB threads that repeat the same argument that was already debunked before have no rights going on as long as they should assuming there's nothing new added to the table.

How convenient you ignored the first CRT where you and Fixxed tried to push for plot hax and yet it got rejected, it's like you love to ignore context.

Ultima's the tier 1 expert, not the plot hax expert, so idk why you keep asking for his inputs and not any other staff here. And I never said my voice is the last call so I appreciate it if you stop twisting my words when I told you 6 people with 2 staffs involved already disagreed with this upgrade, so stop acting like I'm the only one who disagrees when you're not even going to update your own list of agrees to disagrees.

@ImmortalDread that can be another thread if he's going to only push for plot hax
 
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