Pious vs Diavolo

[Armorchompy]

I don't recall if they're visible or not, if they aren't he can't really precog them.

 

[Cloozuma]

I don't recall if they're visible or not, if they aren't he can't really precog them.

Doppio precoged an invisible person, so it doesn't matter

 

[Armorchompy]

He precogged their power's very visible effects bruh. Diavolo literally ends up misinterpreting one of Epitaph's predictions because he only sees the result. What the hell is he gonna see, his psyche being damaged?

 

[Cloozuma]

He precogged their power's very visible effects bruh.

Risotto wasn't even seen, Doppio had to use precog to attack him, though Risotto dodged it.

 

[Armorchompy]

Ok but Risotto makes himself invisible by reflecting light, there is literally nothing to see with Pious' attacks.

"A sub-stand that takes the form of a pink bud of flesh on King Crimson's forehead with the same sour expression. Both Diavolo and Doppio can use the Stand to see up to ten seconds in the future, allowing them to see what happens around them. Rather than the process of the events, Epitaph shows the final result, and whatever it forecasts cannot be avoided - it can, however, be dealt with using the knowledge it grants."

How the **** is Diavolo gonna see the final result of a madness-related technique?

Hell, considering it only shows the final result, there's no way Diavolo's gonna be able to avoid every single glance from Pious- all that needs to happen is Epitaph showing him the wrong fraction of time once and he's toast.

 

[Chariot190]

He precogged their power's very visible effects bruh. Diavolo literally ends up misinterpreting one of Epitaph's predictions because he only sees the result. What the hell is he gonna see, his psyche being damaged?

But that's wrong tho. Doppio ends up misinterpreting. Diavolo was just kinda along for the ride because Doppio was being stubborn.
Also yeah probably.

 

[Armorchompy]

How the hell is he gonna see that? It's a purely visive precognition. He can't see something like that.

 

[Chariot190]

He'd be able to see his future self go ******* ballistic and go "oh huh, well something is up, wonder why I'm going insane". And given Diavolo can use Epitaph in time erased, he has at least some time to consider what's going on.
I should also probably mention that if memory serves, the madness effects aren't instantaneous and slowly get worse and worse. It isn't 0 to 1000 in a instant. Diavolo will have a chance, even if not that long, to do what needs to be done.

T̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶o̶r̶ ̶P̶i̶o̶u̶s̶ ̶w̶a̶s̶ ̶s̶p̶e̶c̶i̶a̶l̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶h̶i̶s̶ ̶w̶a̶s̶,̶ ̶i̶d̶k̶,̶ ̶i̶t̶'̶s̶ ̶b̶e̶e̶n̶ ̶l̶i̶k̶e̶ ̶1̶5̶ ̶y̶e̶a̶r̶s̶.̶

 

[Armorchompy]

He literally just sees a snapshot of what his future self sees, and ED insanity isn't that obvious in its effects. No way he figures it out from one snapshot. He also can only epitaph in erased time during the Part 5 OP, right?

They aren't instantaneous for the playable characters but that's because they have a resistance to it, a random zombie can make frailer psyches (and Diavolo's psyche is HELLA frail, not that he doesn't have a strong will but he's got a pretty strong phobia already) go completely insane in roughly 4 seconds, and Pious is obviously far more powerful in his insanity-infliction than a normal zombie. Also, Diavolo needs to figure out how to beat Pious as well, it ain't that easy. Besides, even if he doesn't immediately go cuckoo-crazy the second he starts being affected, it will start making him see things that aren't really there and make him act irrationally, so his odds of pulling it off go lower and lower pretty fast.

 

[Chariot190]

He literally just sees a snapshot of what his future self sees, and ED insanity isn't that obvious in its effects. No way he figures it out from one snapshot. He also can only epitaph in erased time during the Part 5 OP, right?

Not a snapshot? He can see events play out, it's just, manga desn't do well conveying that (It's just, well manga dude). But he can apparently see tens of seconds into the future (Yes, plural, he can also apparently delete tens of seconds too, looking into where the hard ten seconds comes from, is from Bruno guessing how long he can delete, but guides say tens or around there. Even the in manga bio says at least ten-odd seconds, so it's not actually a solid 10. This doesn't matter much here I don't think, I'm just saying for future reference, getting people to translate the scans eventually for a fluent translation). Actually, glad you brought up an example of the anime OP, that's a good example of what Epitaph looks like, or how it should, he can see events transpire, it's one of the ways he forecasts the trajectory of things (And I use that word literally, it uses the wording "trajectory").

As for that being anime only, nope. He does it against GER, uses Epitaph mid time skip to check to see if when it resumes, if he won the exchange. It's in the manga as well. But also the OP, as the OP is mimicking those events.
It's pretty obvious to an outsider looking in that someone is afflicted. He'd just have to deduce what caused it.

They aren't instantaneous for the playable characters but that's because they have a resistance to it

Not ******* initially they don't dude. And that resistance isn't always the greatest thing, it's kinda, idk, flimsy? I mean yeah it's there, but it's not a solid one.

(and Diavolo's psyche is HELLA frail, not that he doesn't have a strong will but he's got a pretty strong phobia already)

Not entirely true, he has his issues, but dealing with weird ******* otherworldy shit isn't one of them. He just has a extreme case of schizophrenia and an extreme aversion to his past and anything that could cause risks to himself. He only ever actually breaks down after dying, four times. Got close a few times though.

go completely insane in seconds, and Pious is obviously far more powerful in his insanity-infliction than a normal zombie.

Is he though? You could probably make an educated guess that's the case, but was that ever actually established? At all. Because I don't recall that being the case.

Also, Diavolo needs to figure out how to beat Pious as well, it ain't that easy.

The moment the match starts he already knows that his physical attacks won't work because of Epitaph (by seeing himself attack in Epitaph and it doing **** all), so that's not exactly a issue. Doppio gets hax'd first so he'd probably know what's up by then, or at least know something is going on.
It's literally just a matter of "will he take out the mcguffin within the handful of seconds he has when he takes over". Don't know, hard to say. He could maybe deduce it's effecting something though, whether he deduces the exact cause is impossible to say, but if he takes it out regardless, who knows.

There's also the possibility of Diavolo straight up running away, reorganizing himself, and coming back prepared or figuring out a plan. Because that's actually an in-character thing he'd do. If Diavolo is backed into a corner and he doesn't think he can get out easily, he can and will do that. He does it multiple times in story, and tries to do it again at the end before he let his ego take over. Didn't do it against Nero though, but that was a bit different.

it will start making him see things that aren't really there and make him act irrationally, so his odds of pulling it off go lower and lower pretty fast.

Been thinking about that, would we assume that couldn't work around that with something like Epitaph? He may see things wrongly as they happen, but wouldn't Epitaph be a unintended workaround due to it being basically a pre-live play by play of events as they happen, thus showing Diavolo what's actually happening before they do, allowing him to know what is real and what isnt before that time comes?

 

[Chariot190]

Here's some of the scans I've been meaning to get fully translated, I mean, it probably doesn't help you fully, or at all, but some things in there.

 

[Armorchompy]

As for that being anime only, nope. He does it against GER, uses Epitaph mid time skip to check to see if when it resumes, if he won the exchange. It's in the manga as well. But also the OP, as the OP is mimicking those events.
It's pretty obvious to an outsider looking in that someone is afflicted. He'd just have to deduce what caused it.

Not really. It doesn't make them immediately start screaming and drooling, at first it's only internal changes. Despite being well-over half insane already, Maximilian Roivas can interact with his servants without any of them being weirded out.

Not entirely true, he has his issues, but dealing with weird ******* otherworldy shit isn't one of them. He just has a extreme case of schizophrenia and an extreme aversion to his past and anything that could cause risks to himself. He only ever actually breaks down after dying, four times. Got close a few times though.

DID, not schizophrenia. But that's like, way more pre-disposition to insanity than anyone in ED has.

Is he though? You could probably make an educated guess that's the case, but was that ever actually established? At all. Because I don't recall that being the case.

"With the power of Xel’lotath, I can now read the thoughts of others and make them raving mad with a mere suggestion. Face me, and you shall surely perish!"

That's a different Pious, of course, however Alex Roivas is able to fight him and endure his madness for a lot more than a "suggestion". As this Pious is able to affect Alex' sanity almost as much as Xel'lotath Pious, that means he's comparable, albeit inferior.

Even if you don't want to count that, Alex goes through the entirety of the experience of every previous holder of the book of shadows (a few of which are driven completely insane by the experience) and is perfectly fine from it.

The moment the match starts he already knows that his physical attacks won't work because of Epitaph (by seeing himself attack in Epitaph and it doing **** all), so that's not exactly a issue. Doppio gets hax'd first so he'd probably know what's up by then, or at least know something is going on.
It's literally just a matter of "will he take out the mcguffin within the handful of seconds he has when he takes over". Don't know, hard to say. He could maybe deduce it's effecting something though, whether he deduces the exact cause is impossible to say, but if he takes it out regardless, who knows.

Actually, speaking of that, he can't immediately switch to Doppio, he had to make him fight Risotto for like, a minute before he could switch. It's perfectly likely Pious kills him before that.

There's also the possibility of Diavolo straight up running away, reorganizing himself, and coming back prepared or figuring out a plan. Because that's actually an in-character thing he'd do. If Diavolo is backed into a corner and he doesn't think he can get out easily, he can and will do that. He does it multiple times in story, and tries to do it again at the end before he let his ego take over. Didn't do it against Nero though, but that was a bit different.

If he does that Pious summons god-knows how much shit. I mean, he's seen a power he, at least at first, does not understand, it's absolutely not unrealistic he'd start summoning a half army.

Been thinking about that, would we assume that couldn't work around that with something like Epitaph? He may see things wrongly as they happen, but wouldn't Epitaph be a unintended workaround due to it being basically a pre-live play by play of events as they happen, thus showing Diavolo what's actually happening before they do, allowing him to know what is real and what isnt before that time comes?

Not really, that's his mind playing tricks on him, not illusions being placed somewhere. Insanity would affect what he sees inside Epitaph as much as it would affect what he sees everywhere else.

 

[Armorchompy]

Here's some of the scans I've been meaning to get fully translated, I mean, it probably doesn't help you fully, or at all, but some things in there.

I mean I ain't sayin' you're lying or anything, but this isn't exactly helpful to me lol

 

[Chariot190]

Not really. It doesn't make them immediately start screaming and drooling, at first it's only internal changes. Despite being well-over half insane already, Maximilian Roivas can interact with his servants without any of them being weirded out.

Then why are we even having this debate if we're going the route that initially it's relatively minor, even for those who are half insane? And internal as it may be, you're arguing Diavolo would react extremely right, especially because, as you say, "pre-disposed"? So either way. He'd notice something, especially if Doppio gets hit by it first.

DID, not schizophrenia. But that's like, way more pre-disposition to insanity than anyone in ED has.

You'd think, but Araki be like Araki do. There was an intent. Even if it ended up being portrayed wrongly.

"With the power of Xel’lotath, I can now read the thoughts of others and make them raving mad with a mere suggestion. Face me, and you shall surely perish!"

Can I call hyperbole on that? Because as you said above. Or at least, "raving mad" being a bit of a case of "who you ask".

That's a different Pious, of course, however Alex Roivas is able to fight him and endure his madness for a lot more than a "suggestion". As this Pious is able to affect Alex' sanity almost as much as Xel'lotath Pious, that means he's comparable, albeit inferior.

Hol up. You said almost right? That means they're different in game? Could we just not, like, compare how fast and excessive they are in relation to each other to figure out how long it'd take to take full effect here?

Even if you don't want to count that, Alex goes through the entirety of the experience of every previous holder of the book of shadows (a few of which are driven completely insane by the experience) and is perfectly fine from it.

That one is actually a bit weird, I'm actually more inclined to agree with the former argument over that one.

Actually, speaking of that, he can't immediately switch to Doppio, he had to make him fight Risotto for like, a minute before he could switch. It's perfectly likely Pious kills him before that.

Yes he can actually, just not when Doppio is actively resisting, in situations like those it takes him ten seconds to transform. When Doppio isn't actively saying "ayy **** you boss", it's instantaneous. We see these, quite a bit actually. A good example is against Pol, transforms in the time it takes him to take two steps. (And that time skip was anime only). And as for killing, I kinda doubt that one. Between time skip saying lol **** your spells and for AP, well King Crimson is a buff lad (Honestly hoping to get that AP thread out this week, finished the last calc up yesterday with M3X), well, he's a beefy boy. The third beefiest boy actually.

If he does that Pious summons god-knows how much shit. I mean, he's seen a power he, at least at first, does not understand, it's absolutely not unrealistic he'd start summoning a half army.

And? Would unironically be further incentive to retreat and figure out a way to win. Diavolo doesn't like fighting anything beyond like, 3 people at once. In-character outright called off a fight because of that, a fight he would of probably won tbh. Summoning an army isn't helpful, at least not in the moment, it'll be a pain in the ass after he collects himself and tries to figure out a plan and has to deal with that (Maybe resort to range? King Crimson does indeed have a strong pitch) but in the moment, if he wants to flee temporarily, he can and will and he's gonna abuse the **** out of time skip when he does it, making it an actual safe option.

Not really, that's his mind playing tricks on him, not illusions being placed somewhere. Insanity what he sees inside Epitaph as much as it would affect what he sees everywhere else.

And why would it? The fact that if there's any discrepancy at all between Epitaph and what he ends up seeing will tip him off as is. But I'm gonna be real here, the effects you're trying to imply are nowhere near as fast as you think, and honestly, after looking at every single possible effect in game, only a few would actually be so extreme as to cause a complete disassociated slip between reality and what's happening around him that would cause him to be unable to deal with both simultaneously. I mean, some are definitely an issue, but some really aren't and are a minor nuisance at best.


Well, I still stand by what I said, none of this actually changes my initial argument, only really confirming that it will happen if Diavolo doesn't figure things out, and quickly.
i̶ ̶h̶a̶v̶e̶n̶t̶ ̶e̶v̶e̶n̶ ̶v̶o̶t̶e̶d̶ ̶y̶e̶t̶..

 

[Chariot190]

Wait, nevermind I'm ******* braindead. Being a schizoid isn't the same shit. ****, ignore that, just woke up, my bad.

 

[Theglassman12]

Just reminding people that trying to touch the artifact or getting close to it will corrupt the individual. That’s literally what happened to Pious when he got near each of the artifacts.

 

[Chariot190]

Just reminding people that trying to touch the artifact or getting close to it will corrupt the individual. That’s literally what happened to Pious when he got near each of the artifacts.

He'd see that in Epitaph probably, given he's likely to be abusing it, telling him like 5-10 seconds ahead of time "hey dont go near this, something happened when you did". And then just like, idk, pick up a piece of debris and strong arm that shit like how SP tossed Iggy, or how he tossed those scapels at Abbacchio from like 200m away. What's the durability on this thing?

 

[Armorchompy]

Then why are we even having this debate if we're going the route that initially it's relatively minor, even for those who are half insane? And internal as it may be, you're arguing Diavolo would react extremely right, especially because, as you say, "pre-disposed"? So either way. He'd notice something, especially if Doppio gets hit by it first.

It's not noticeable, that doesn't mean it's minor. And I mean, with all his makeup and how extreme his expressions are, I doubt it'd be easy to tell.

Can I call hyperbole on that? Because as you said above. Or at least, "raving mad" being a bit of a case of "who you ask".

Not really, Pious isn't really talking to anyone but himself in that, it should be pretty close to factual. And it does make sense lore-wise, obviously.

Hol up. You said almost right? That means they're different in game? Could we just not, like, compare how fast and excessive they are in relation to each other to figure out how long it'd take to take full effect here?

I think it's actually the same in-game, I'm saying almost cause of lore. Not sure tho, either way it wouldn't be a huge difference.

That one is actually a bit weird, I'm actually more inclined to agree with the former argument over that one.

I mean, not really. She goes through it and it does affect her sanity (In-game, every time you beat a chapter your insanity meter gets filled a bit though you can just cast a spell to undo that), but she's still perfectly fine by the end of the game.

Yes he can actually, just not when Doppio is actively resisting, in situations like those it takes him ten seconds to transform. When Doppio isn't actively saying "ayy **** you boss", it's instantaneous. We see these, quite a bit actually. A good example is against Pol, transforms in the time it takes him to take two steps. (And that time skip was anime only). And as for killing, I kinda doubt that one. Between time skip saying lol **** your spells and for AP, well King Crimson is a buff lad (Honestly hoping to get that AP thread out this week, finished the last calc up yesterday with M3X), well, he's a beefy boy. The third beefiest boy actually.

I mean, with his raving insanity, I bet Doppio would resist. In its most extreme cases, ED madness reacts aggressively to any stimuli, as you can see with Maximilian screaming at his prison guards.

And? Would unironically be further incentive to retreat and figure out a way to win. Diavolo doesn't like fighting anything beyond like, 3 people at once. In-character outright called off a fight because of that, a fight he would of probably won tbh. Summoning an army isn't helpful, at least not in the moment, it'll be a pain in the ass after he collects himself and tries to figure out a plan and has to deal with that (Maybe resort to range? King Crimson does indeed have a strong pitch) but in the moment, if he wants to flee temporarily, he can and will and he's gonna abuse the **** out of time skip when he does it, making it an actual safe option.

After a while that'll be a self-BFR. Besides, Pious has a good amount of broken, prep-time shit he can try.

And why would it? The fact that if there's any discrepancy at all between Epitaph and what he ends up seeing will tip him off as is. But I'm gonna be real here, the effects you're trying to imply are nowhere near as fast as you think, and honestly, after looking at every single possible effect in game, only a few would actually be so extreme as to cause a complete disassociated slip between reality and what's happening around him that would cause him to be unable to deal with both simultaneously. I mean, some are definitely an issue, but some really aren't and are a minor nuisance at best.

Oh, you mean, if he's sent insane after using Epitaph? I mean, yes, that's true, if he does.

 

[Armorchompy]

He'd see that in Epitaph probably, given he's likely to be abusing it, telling him like 5-10 seconds ahead of time "hey dont go near this, something happened when you did". And then just like, idk, pick up a piece of debris and strong arm that shit like how SP tossed Iggy, or how he tossed those scapels at Abbacchio from like 200m away. What's the durability on this thing?

Required basically every playable character to chip away at it, and it only appears after hurting Pious, I think (again, been a while), which Diavolo wouldn't do since he'd see it not working via Epitaph.

 

[Theglassman12]

What armorchompy said. Also it has a form of sentience and basically phases in and out of existence, and it’s placement in the area is random as ****.

 

[Armorchompy]

Those probably don't matter since Diavolo has NPI and just enough range to make up for it- if he gets it to appear, which I seriously doubt, since it doesn't appear immediately after hurting Pious iirc, so he'd probably timeskip before realizing that.

 

[Theglassman12]

Though if and when Pious notices what’s going on, he can just create a corrosive barrier around the essence, making it even harder for Diavolo to try and touch it. Which wouldn’t be out of the ordinary for this version of pious since he basically has divine knowledge across the multiverse.

 

[Armorchompy]

Speaking of that, does Pious have any long-lasting AOE spells or am I remembering wrong here?

 

[Chariot190]

It's not noticeable, that doesn't mean it's minor. And I mean, with all his makeup and how extreme his expressions are, I doubt it'd be easy to tell.

Wot. You realize we're talking about a character reacting to HIMSELF. He'd know when he's acting out of character or oddly to something. And make-up? Honestly hope to God you aren't trying to argue that because he wears magically spawning lipstick that he won't be able to tell if something is up with his future self. Like com on Chompy. That's not a real argument. And they actually kinda are minor, just went through two full videos of every sanity effect in the game, some are bad, some wouldn't even hinder him in the slightest. The ones that ARE bad though? He'd probably be visually distressed, minor ones? They wouldn't even effect his efficiency, probably just assume it's a weird Stand attack and go along with trying to "kill the user".
That or I misinterpreted you and you aren't talking about Diavolo seeing himself in Epitapth.

Not really, Pious isn't really talking to anyone but himself in that, it should be pretty close to factual. And it does make sense lore-wise, obviously.

I was more referring to what "raving mad" entails. Because it does, obviously we aren't talking like HP Lovecraft Cthulu madness. Hence "who you ask".

I think it's actually the same in-game, I'm saying almost cause of lore. Not sure tho, either way it wouldn't be a huge difference.

Well, we should probably check to be safe. Because if it isn't, it matters.

I mean, with his raving insanity, I bet Doppio would resist. In its most extreme cases, ED madness reacts aggressively to any stimuli, as you can see with Maximilian screaming at his prison guards.

Doppio only resisted against Diavolo against Nero because he fully believed he could defeat Nero himself based on his opponent. Other times, even when Doppio was balls to the ******* walls, Diavolo could take over instantly, see the fortune teller. Or against Pol, wh Doppio knew was his foe and had a "vague" idea who he was, he still let Diavolo take over instantly. Doppio would resist, only if he thought he could win, and even if he did resust, I'm sure he could last for ten seconds before the forced switch happens, simply going on how Pious fights, because he ain't exactly the Flash, let's be real here, dude ain't wizzing out the giga **** spells a dime a dozen constantly.

After a while that'll be a self-BFR. Besides, Pious has a good amount of broken, prep-time shit he can try.

But would he against a random shirtless buff dude? And I'm aware, which shouldn't be a issue, he was on the team's ass in like a hour again (though not personally, he had a bigger priority to solve). He may retreat, but he also doesn't want anyone to live who knows his identity, he'd be back before it comes to big a issue.


Either way, still stand by my initial point. This, again, just further cements if he's not quick on the uptake that madness manip is gonna end up being his downfall. But he should definitely have some leeway initially, especially if he abuses time skip, as that'd increase his time to figure things out exponentially.

 

[Chariot190]

Though if and when Pious notices what’s going on, he can just create a corrosive barrier around the essence, making it even harder for Diavolo to try and touch it. Which wouldn’t be out of the ordinary for this version of pious since he basically has divine knowledge across the multiverse.

King Crimson can phase tho? diavolo himself is obviously not gonna touch it, hell he only ever physically interacts once in the whole part, wish he ******* did so we could get his ass above Athletic.

 

[Chariot190]

Required basically every playable character to chip away at it,

Unironically not a issue. Needless to say, King Crimson is far and above the playable cast. I mean, dude has like a scaling chain of 3-4 one shots. Brutal one shots.

I think (again, been a while)

You and me both. Can you check exactly what this entails?

which Diavolo wouldn't do since he'd see it not working via Epitaph.

Eh, if he sees that when he hits the dude a magic artifact suddenly spawns. That's a bit different to "hits him and literally nothing happened".

 

[Armorchompy]

I was more referring to what "raving mad" entails. Because it does, obviously we aren't talking like HP Lovecraft Cthulu madness. Hence "who you ask".

We see the peak of ED insanity renders you a blubbering mess incapable of coherency, I don't think "raving mad" is an exaggeration.

But would he against a random shirtless buff dude? And I'm aware, which shouldn't be a issue, he was on the team's ass in like a hour again (though not personally, he had a bigger priority to solve). He may retreat, but he also doesn't want anyone to live who knows his identity, he'd be back before it comes to big a issue.

He'd see Diavolo time-skip at least once or twice, considering Diavolo needs to realize he can't take on Pious before retreating so yes, especially with the cosmic awareness he has in this key.

Also, the icon seems to appear immediately, but I think that might just be because of the context surrounding the fight? I'd need Glassman to clear that up for me, not sure.

 

[Chariot190]

Actually because I don't wanna do this all day, and don't care a whole lot about who wins.
I just have a few questions that need to be established first.

Do the enemies in game have differencing sanity increases to the player character?
How exactly does the artifact spawn and how do they do it.
Would King Crimson's weird ass spiritual nature help toward qualifying as magick? Or a similar analog.

We see the peak of ED insanity renders you a blubbering mess incapable of coherency, I don't think "raving mad" is an exaggeration.

w̶e̶l̶l̶ ̶m̶a̶y̶b̶e̶ ̶i̶f̶ ̶w̶e̶ ̶e̶v̶e̶r̶ ̶a̶c̶t̶u̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶s̶e̶e̶n̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶d̶o̶ ̶s̶o̶m̶e̶t̶h̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶i̶t̶.̶ ̶
Though, "suggestion" right? Would it be wrong to assume Diavolo would "see" this happen to Doppio, notice he gestured that and suddenly Doppio is kill, and then just simply put two and two together and just time skip over whenever Pious tries to do this?
As, I don't think I should clarify this, or rather, need to, but Diavolo can time skip instantly and at a whim, time skip ahead of time due to Epitaph, and can control the length of his time skips so it's only a split fraction of a second, only skipping what needs to be skipped (like against Aerosmith, where he deleted only a split second) or the full length of time, or anything in between.

He'd see Diavolo time-skip at least once or twice, considering Diavolo needs to realize he can't take on Pious before retreating so yes, especially with the cosmic awareness he has in this key.

Well technically speaking, he wouldn't. He'd see Diavolo effectively teleport and himself as well. Maybe his cosmic awareness extends to helping him figure out what happened. But isn't cosmic awareness restricted to just the verse in question kinda like omniscience?

Also, the icon seems to appear immediately, but I think that might just be because of the context surrounding the fight? I'd need Glassman to clear that up for me, not sure.

That would be helpful yes.

 

[Armorchompy]

Do the enemies in game have differencing sanity increases to the player character?

I don't think so? It's not very well documented, so I'm just going off memory here. But it wouldn't make for a fun game if any boss drained your sanity in a split second, or if zombies failed to do anything to Alex' sanity.

How exactly does the artifact spawn and how do they do it.

Again, no clue

Would King Crimson's weird ass spiritual nature help toward qualifying as magick? Or a similar analog.

Probably not, Magick is specifically magic that's done by taking energy from the gods, which is very different from whatever the **** Stands are today

w̶e̶l̶l̶ ̶m̶a̶y̶b̶e̶ ̶i̶f̶ ̶w̶e̶ ̶e̶v̶e̶r̶ ̶a̶c̶t̶u̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶s̶e̶e̶n̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶d̶o̶ ̶s̶o̶m̶e̶t̶h̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶i̶t̶.̶ ̶

Maximilian Roivas, and I'm sure a couple other cases I can't think of.

Though, "suggestion" right? Would it be wrong to assume Diavolo would "see" this happen to Doppio, notice he gestured that and suddenly Doppio is kill, and then just simply put two and two together and just time skip over whenever Pious tries to do this?

I think suggestion just means glancing at them, that's the way Pious tries to make you go insane in-game.

Well technically speaking, he wouldn't. He'd see Diavolo effectively teleport and himself as well. Maybe his cosmic awareness extends to helping him figure out what happened. But isn't cosmic awareness restricted to just the verse in question kinda like omniscience?

I dunno, but he's way more than Gifted especially in this key, so I doubt he'd struggle figuring it out- Polnareff pulled it off and his interaction with Diavolo was a lot briefer. Even if he somehow struggled to he could straight-up just ask Ulyaoth for help, he isn't afraid to do that when the situation is dire for his plan to summon him, and losing his life would qualify as that.

 

[Theglassman12]

I’m pretty sure the stronger enemies have far deadlier sanity glares than the weaker ones. The artifact “spawns” when pious gets hit only for like 2 seconds before it becomes invisible, and after a specific periods of time it just warps to another location, making it harder to track. Aren’t stand powers spiritual by nature? If so I think it could count as a magick?

I mean considering it literally works by looking at you could he be able to put two and two together that he has to avoid pious’ line of sight to make sure his sanity doesn’t drain? Spell casting for pious is another thing since it takes a bit of time to cast as opposed to him looking at you, but the option does exist.

Spirits technically speaking do exist in ED, so his cosmic awareness should at least alert Pious about a spiritual power that Diavolo is using.

 

[Armorchompy]

Time manipulation on a scale far greater than KC's does exist in ED so he would be familiar with the kind of power- perhaps he might even sense the altering in time with his Cosmic Awareness.

 

[Chariot190]

I don't think so? It's not very well documented, so I'm just going off memory here. But it wouldn't make for a fun game if any boss drained your sanity in a split second, or if zombies failed to do anything to Alex' sanity.

Well, again, it is important, even if its just minimal.

Again, no clue

Well that's a key factor here.

Probably not, Magick is specifically magic that's done by taking energy from the gods, which is very different from whatever the **** Stands are today

Spirit shit according to as recent as JoJolion.

I think suggestion just means glancing at them, that's the way Pious tries to make you go insane in-game.

You certain? There isn't any type of gesture or signal at all?

I dunno, but he's way more than Gifted especially in this key, so I doubt he'd struggle figuring it out- Polnareff pulled it off and his interaction with Diavolo was a lot briefer.

Actually, that isn't true. Their fight lasted awhile based on contextual evidence (or the anime if you wnat to use that to help fill in some blanks), it was just all offscreen. And he didn't even learn it right away, he had like, a literal decade to think over it and come up with a counter that only works once and is barely a counter.

Even if he somehow struggled to he could straight-up just ask Ulyaoth for help, he isn't afraid to do that when the situation is dire for his plan to summon him, and losing his life would qualify as that.

Yeah but would Ulyaoth know? Remember. Cosmic awareness and omniscience only applies to the verse in question.

I’m pretty sure the stronger enemies have far deadlier sanity glares than the weaker ones.

Ok if that's the case, well issue solved. How big is the discrepancies? At their maximum, I'd assume the smaller ones would be gameplay shit.

The artifact “spawns” when pious gets hit only for like 2 seconds before it becomes invisible, and after a specific periods of time it just warps to another location, making it harder to track.

Ah, that's actually kinda helpful. Diavolo would be able to see himself hit pious in Epitaph, and then see the artifact spawn briefly in said vision at the same time right? Meaning he'd know where it is without actually having to hit him, would he not? In that case it's just a matter of if Diavolo would realize that's something he needs to take care of.

Aren’t stand powers spiritual by nature? If so I think it could count as a magick?

The soul/spirit manifested and given form.

I mean considering it literally works by looking at you could he be able to put two and two together that he has to avoid pious’ line of sight to make sure his sanity doesn’t drain? Spell casting for pious is another thing since it takes a bit of time to cast as opposed to him looking at you, but the option does exist.

I'd assume that Diavolo would at least be tipped off that gesturing/sight/whatever is bad as Doppio would have been thrown under the bus and he'd know some shit is up and could maybe use Epitaph and time skip in conjunction to figure out what's going on, time skip especially helps him get a free length of time to figure it out without issue (Also Diavolo in character likes to stay out of sight anyway, he wants to avoid his foe ever looking at him, and especially his face. A good example is with Bruno, to where he used his environment to hide back and forth and always stayed in the shadows).

Spirits technically speaking do exist in ED, so his cosmic awareness should at least alert Pious about a spiritual power that Diavolo is using.

I don't doubt he'd be aware that Diavolo is doing something and it's spiritual in nature, I'm just questioning if he'd know what exactly he's doing, that being deleting time and cause.

Time manipulation on a scale far greater than KC's does exist in ED so he would be familiar with the kind of power- perhaps he might even sense the altering in time with his Cosmic Awareness.

Sure, maybe it does. But I know for a fact time skip isnt apart of that variety. So at best it boils down to "he did something with time but I don't know what".

Anyway, this has been a mixed bag, some of this info presented actually benefits Diavolo, but is also a detriment in other cases, like for example, the "hit him and it shows up briefly", that's good, because that's a solid example of Epitaph utility coming into play. And Diavolo's innate desire to stay out of sight helps too. Among other things. But Sanity glaring actually having innate different potency is a issue, so it's just a matter of how badly will Diavolo be effected assuming he doesn't manage to put two and two together and stay out of sight and abuse his time skip.

 

[Theglassman12]

Soooooo would that be an inconclusive vote? Since it boils down to either Diavolo manages to figure out the invulnerability and possibly get a kill in, or he eventually gets madness haxed by Pious?

 

[Armorchompy]

You certain? There isn't any type of gesture or signal at all?

Nope, just looking at you with his eyes glowing green.

Actually, that isn't true. Their fight lasted awhile based on contextual evidence (or the anime if you wnat to use that to help fill in some blanks), it was just all offscreen. And he didn't even learn it right away, he had like, a literal decade to think over it and come up with a counter that only works once and is barely a counter.

Still, Pious is like, a lot smarter especially in this key.

Yeah but would Ulyaoth know? Remember. Cosmic awareness and omniscience only applies to the verse in question.

Just because he won't start off knowing about Diavolo's abilities, that doesn't mean he isn't smart enough to understand it basically immediately.

The soul/spirit manifested and given form.

By the way, what's that from? Not challenging you on that claim, I'm just curious.

Sure, maybe it does. But I know for a fact time skip isnt apart of that variety. So at best it boils down to "he did something with time but I don't know what".

I mean, that's all he needs for "hey, this dude's a real threat, he can mess with time when the only other guy who can do that is the god tier of my verse, I should be careful"

Anyway, this has been a mixed bag, some of this info presented actually benefits Diavolo, but is also a detriment in other cases, like for example, the "hit him and it shows up briefly", that's good, because that's a solid example of Epitaph utility coming into play. And Diavolo's innate desire to stay out of sight helps too. Among other things. But Sanity glaring actually having innate different potency is a issue, so it's just a matter of how badly will Diavolo be effected assuming he doesn't manage to put two and two together and stay out of sight and abuse his time skip.

I mean, Pious only needs a single glance. Diavolo is good with his power but even if he manages to figure everything out, there's still a real chance he looks too much ahead and misses a glance from Pious, or his eyes meet while he's looking at Epitaph (Even if he can do it in erased time, he doesn't always do that in character), or some other very small mistake.

 

[Armorchompy]

Soooooo would that be an inconclusive vote? Since it boils down to either Diavolo manages to figure out the invulnerability and possibly get a kill in, or he eventually gets madness haxed by Pious?

I'm not opposed to Incon.

 

[Chariot190]

Nope, just looking at you with his eyes glowing green.

Got that.

Still, Pious is like, a lot smarter especially in this key.

I'm aware, but dont you think "oh he's deleting time" is a bit of a jump in logic? There's a few other alternatives, even within time based abilities.

Just because he won't start off knowing about Diavolo's abilities, that doesn't mean he isn't smart enough to understand it basically immediately.

I can see him figuring it out of it drags on. The issue is I don't see this match lasting that long. Either Diavolo gets gimped or Diavolo figures it out with his arsenal of tools and then just goes ahead and does what he needs to do. I don't see the match last over a minute, with 95% of that time being time skip.

I mean, that's all he needs for "hey, this dude's a real threat, he can mess with time when the only other guy who can do that is the god tier of my verse, I should be careful"

Fair enough.

I mean, Pious only needs a single glance. Diavolo is good with his power but even if he manages to figure everything out, there's still a real chance he looks too much ahead and misses a glance from Pious, or his eyes meet while he's looking at Epitaph (Even if he can do it in erased time, he doesn't always do that in character), or some other very small mistake.

Which is where Doppio comes in. Doppi gets ****** first and tips Diavolo off, from there he should very well put two and two together, especially in conjunction with his visions.
And tbh, he does do it often enough, mostly towards the end. He abused Epitaph so much, he knew the complete trajectory of Mista's bullets, and even the things they'd hit, allowing him to simply avoid them flawlessly while running with barely any movement on his end.
Which also leads me into that last bit, being glanced at is actually the least likely thing to happen, as he can reposition himself in time skip, and that's what he does almost exclusively with it, he'll never be in his line of sight if he doesn't want to, assuming he picks up on that being why. And looking to far ahead isn't the main benefit he has, it's that Doppio is a sacrificial pawn here. He'd know first hand.
If he's looking at Epitaph he's not really gonna be meeting eyes with Pious so...


Well, from the looks of things, both have things going for them. It's ultimately, semantics aside, just a matter of how fast can Diavolo figure a thing out.
Im fine with inconclusive,

 

[Armorchompy]

I'm aware, but dont you think "oh he's deleting time" is a bit of a jump in logic? There's a few other alternatives, even within time based abilities.

Totally, but I doubt his prep would be overly specific.

Well, from the looks of things, both have things going for them. It's ultimately, semantics aside, just a matter of how fast can Diavolo figure a thing out.
Im fine with inconclusive,

Incon FRA it is then

 

[Chariot190]

Well, time for me to **** off. I'll check back later today.

Edit: Prep? Edit 2:nvm.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

incon fra

 

[Mister6ame6]

Incon FRA