Overlord's immortality type 5

[KingNanaya]

w8 a sec. Does existence before the multiverse not makes you above life and death that exist within the multiverse?

it does not grant those things

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

it does not grant those things

But why? Existence prior the Creation and Destruction (which appeared in the First Realm and after that in other Realms [Wu calls the multiverse as "Realms of Creation"]) must make you above the Realms of Creation itself (at least in terms of basics laws of life and death). And Transduality, about which u said, also should make the Overlord Type 5 as transcendence above 17 Realms itself (existed before them). Imo Type 5 makes sense here.

 

[KingNanaya]

Existence prior the Creation and Destruction (which appeared in the First Realm and after that in other Realms [Wu calls the multiverse as "Realms of Creation"]) must make you above the Realms of Creation itself (at least in terms of basics laws of life and death).

creation and destruction aren't life and death themselves. the only dual systems talked about here are Light and dark, good and evil, and creation and destruction. from what I've seen, the overlord exists as evil, darkness, and destruction, while the first spinjitsu master exists as good, light, and creation. there has been no statements that life and death are part of this, and existing before something =/= transcendence over that thing. you should probably get more staff here. I know @Theglassman12 and @Deagonx are good with these types of powers and abilities, so message them on their walls for help with this.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

creation and destruction aren't life and death themselves. the only dual systems talked about here are Light and dark, good and evil, and creation and destruction. from what I've seen, the overlord exists as evil, darkness, and destruction, while the first spinjitsu master exists as good, light, and creation. there has been no statements that life and death are part of this, and existing before something =/= transcendence over that thing. you should probably get more staff here. I know @Theglassman12 and @Deagonx are good with these types of powers and abilities, so message them on their walls for help with this.

Well, in Ninjago verse Destruction and Darkness are two different things. Destruction is an Oni Demon's power and Creation is an Dragons power. However, Destruction and Creation is also a Balance - Light and Shadow for the First Realm. FSM have borh of them. However, Darkness, unlike Creation and Destruction, is a more abstract force. While Destruction is representation of Shadow side of the Balance and Creation is a Light side, The Overlord (Darkness) is an abstract spirit that exists as thing that lurks within Shadow side of the Balance and existed prior that (scans above). Thus, the Overlord is not exactly part of the Balance like Destruction, for example, but is pure evil that uses Creation to manifest itself in the world.

“Do not confuse Destruction with Darkness. Darkness feeds on Creation. It needs life to make evil. Destruction fears Creation. Destruction only wants to erase all life.”

 

[KingNanaya]

Well, in Ninjago verse Destruction and Darkness are two different things.

I listed them separately.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

I listed them separately.

Yea, but Overlord doesn't linked to Destruction. That's a thing

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

BUMP

 

[Theglassman12]

Yeah not seeing how this is type 5 Immortality when nothing mentions the individual exists beyond conventional life and death.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

Yeah not seeing how this is type 5 Immortality when nothing mentions the individual exists beyond conventional life and death.

This guy literally existed prior any Realms and even realm of Oni and Dragons. Imo, existence prior the conventional existence (multiverse) should make him Type 5.

 

[Theglassman12]

No it doesn’t, that’s literally not how type 5 immortality works at all. You need statements that you’re beyond conventional life and death to get type 5. Existing before creation is way too vague to use for immortality.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

No it doesn’t, that’s literally not how type 5 immortality works at all. You need statements that you’re beyond conventional life and death to get type 5. Existing before creation is way too vague to use for immortality.

Shouldn't be considered existence prior creation as existence before such concepts? Ninjago verse considers a lot of stuff as "mortal", even Oni or Dragons, and Overlord is not one of them in this case. Also I believe that Dragons Rising will reveal some tasty things.

Besides all of that, within Ninjago verse life and death relates to the in-realm existence because of the Departed Realm (literally a world for the deceased) where souls of beings from all of the realms come after death. So, in this case, existence before Departed Realm should make the Overlord above death at least.

 

[Theglassman12]

You need to prove he exists without the need of life and death, you're making a massive assumption that he's unbound by life and death. The burden of proof is on you that he's beyond life and death.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

You need to prove he exists without the need of life and death, you're making a massive assumption that he's unbound by life and death. The burden of proof is on you that he's beyond life and death.

Okay. Let's go!

Departed Realm is a place where beings from the multiverse get to after a full and true death (Ninjago also has Cursed Realm and Underworld, where particularly cursed and twisted souls of living beings can get to, but even they go to the Departed Realm after their death).

“Rip the fabric between realms! Oni, I call upon you! Connect me to . . . the Departed Realm!” — Harumi, "Dread on Arrival"

According to lore, this Realm cannot be accessed even by the Realm Crystal (which can open paths to every Realm in existence excluding Departed Realm). However, Mystake's (who was [First link] one of the three original Oni Warlords [second link]) can use her ancient knowladge and create a very large dose of the Traveler's Tea which can open a short time path to it.

However, Departed Realm wasn't a first realm that came into existence - the Realm of Oni and Dragons is. That means that Death as concept was not always there.

Thus, now we go to the Overlord. He had always existed. This mean that Overlord existed even before realms and, therefore, before the Departed Realm and before Oni's and Dragon's Realm.

“So you know about how the First Spinjitzu Master created Ninjago, but what if I were to tell you in order for there to be light, there must be shadow, and within shadow, there is darkness. The blackest of darkness that existed from the very beginning. An evil spirit called the Overlord” — Misako to Lloyd, "The Stone Army"

"My master plan has been in the works since the beginning of time. Every piece moves in perfect harmony, like the gears of the clock, slowly shifting the balance of power back to darkness. Every piece, that is, but you!" — The Overlord to Garmadon

That means that Overlord existed before Death and not bound by it (scans in the OP post makes it clear that Balance only bounds his access to creation and restricts him from freely enter it)

 

[Theglassman12]

Yeah none of this remotely explains him being unbound from life and death.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

Yeah none of this remotely explains him being unbound from life and death.

Do u understand what is Departed Realm for the Ninjago verse? It is a place that serves as afterlife world. It is closely tide to concept of death for the verse. Before Departed Realm there was no death because souls cannot just disappear (and, well, before DR was no beings at all).

I mean that existence before Departed Realm is very good proof for Type 5 in this verse. It's like if u exists before it means that u are unbound by death because, well, u are exists before a place for dead souls. And even after event (Departed Realm came into existence) Overlord exists in his own void.

 

[Theglassman12]

That’s not how it works here, you need statements the individual themselves are unbound by life and death, being before creation in of itself is too much of an assumption and can lead to a lot of other abilities that’s never implied. If this is the most you have then count me in for disagreeing with type 5.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

That’s not how it works here, you need statements the individual themselves are unbound by life and death, being before creation in of itself is too much of an assumption and can lead to a lot of other abilities that’s never implied. If this is the most you have then count me in for disagreeing with type 5.

Well then. I think this description should be lore accurate than one we have now:
Immortality (Types 1, 3, 8: The Overlord can recreate his physical forms and vessels as evil accumulates in the world upon time. The Overlord's spirit exists independently from the reality. The Overlord in spirit form regenerated after Golden Power attacks upon him).
As for physical forms it should be Immortality (Type 1, 9: Vessels are non-organic bodies created by Overlord, who exists outside of the reality)

And considering latest info I brought it should be Acausality (Type 4: The Overlord existed before conventional space-time and creation itself).

As for Type 5.. Let's just wait. Dragons Rising can bring a lot of new info for the series considering Source Dragons. If there will be some new stuff about it I will create another thread for it.

What do you think?

 

[Theglassman12]

Is time connected with fate or cause and effect in the series? Cause that’s needed for type 4 Acausality.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

Is time connected with fate or cause and effect in the series? Cause that’s needed for type 4 Acausality.

It is connected to cause and effect. It was demonstrated with the Mega Weapon (when ninja time-traveled to the past to prevent some actions with Lord Garmadon to happen) and with Nadakhan (Jay's final wish altered time and Season 6 became just an alternate timeline). And Season 7 also introduced some changes in the Ninjago City because of the Time Twins and their time travel machine - Iron Doom. So yea, time definitely tied to cause-effect chain

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

BUMP

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

BUMP

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

BUMP

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

Please, let's finish this thread already...