Overall Speed Downgrade

[LordXcano]

Currently, the top-tiers are listed as FTL. I believe this contradicts in-universe statements, rules, and WoG. I have discussed this before, but I can now format it better.

Currently, the arguments for FTL Homestuck characters goes as follows:

• They travel between planets quickly

• Lightspeed characters blitz other lightspeed characters

I will adress both of these.

First, statements against lightspeed characters (from in-universe people and WoG).

"ROSE: Just as you should trust me that by the time we leave, if we leave exactly within the designated window and are able to travel at nearly the speed of light, the meteor will trace a route through the Furthest Ring which will topologically resolve as a straight line."

This statement not only implies FTL is possible, but the addition of "able to" indicates that high relativistic speeds are difficult to attain.

"JADE: based on our current velocity, which is about as close to light speed as i can make it go"

Not "as close to light speed as i can make it go", meaning she definitely can't go faster than light if she can't even get near to it. And this is one of the most powerful characters in the series, with extremely good spatial manipulation abilities.

"JOHN: what!!!

JOHN: that is an absolutely preposterous amount of time.

JADE: i know!

JOHN: are you sure you can't make it go any faster?

JOHN: i mean, not to sound too demanding, but...

JOHN: didn't you say you can teleport stuff?

JOHN: why not teleport us there?

JADE: i cant!

JADE: not here, at least"

The "i cant! not here, at least" is referring to the teleportation, but this further solidifies that she cannot go FTL.

"Quick answer A: It's a fictionalized version of relativity, inverted for [reasons]. Not unlike the fictionalized forms of special and general relativity used in Problem Sleuth for basic reasons of absurdity. (Wait, this silly thing is a better link)"

This is a WoG statement. The "silly thing" links to a page on Problem Sleuth that states:

"Nothing can travel faster than light! Ever. Not space ships, not electricity, not even prayers whispered to your guardian angel. So no matter what, 36 billion years is the minimum duration for that trip."

Which means Hussie is using Problem Sleuth physics for Homestuck, otherwise he wouldn't have used it as an explanation for the yellow yard trip.

Then there's this.

"Let's see. They should be traveling near the speed of light across a distance of one yard, giving them about three nanoseconds before they crash through the other wall."

Which is a statement by Hussie's avatar that Jade, again, cannot move FTL.

Now to adress argument one. Travelling between planets quickly. To this I have three answers.

1. We never get time-frames, although the animations do tend to imply it's fast

2. There are literally portals on the planets leading to other planets IIRC

3. The planets aren't very far apart

Now, evidence for point number three.

http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=009839

This panel aaand

http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=009843

This one 4 pages later.

Now, Terezi travels from Skaia to another planet in the time-span of a conversation on a jetpack. Already looking bad for planets being far apart. But I'm going to do an extreme high-end calc for the planetary distances just for this.

Let's say her conversation (which was just her monologuing for about 10 paragraphs) took 5 hours and that she was travelling at, oh, 1000 miles per minute.

This is ignoring the fact that she is on a jetpack and that 10 paragraph monologues aren't that long, obviously.

This gives us a distance of 300,000 miles, which is about 2 light seconds.

Actually, let me high-end it even further.

Let's say she's moving 1000 miles per second. That means there's about a... 18000000 mile distance between planets. 18000000/186282 = 92 light seconds. Either way, these planets clearly are not far apart as they are IRL, so argument 1 is out the window.

Argument 2, lightspeed blitzing lightspeed action.

1. This assumes that their combat speed = their travel speed, which hasn't been stated or even implied.

2. Jack, PM, LE, and Jade seem to so far be the only lightspeed characters. Had John been lightspeed, he wouldn't have needed the ship would he? In fact, neither would Jade, so we can say she just moves things at 0.99c, rather than making herself 0.99c.

 

[SomebodyData]

wut series is this

 

[LordXcano]

Homestuck

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Still not sure about the meteor thing, as Hussie has proved before that he can be rather lousy with the theory of relativity and things relating to it, in certain cases.

I'm also really doubting Terezi's ten paragraph conversation took five hours, which seems to only assume the conversation was overly long and not that the jetpack was just really fast, which it obviously would have to be for interplanetary travel.

That said, you make a good case for the planets not being as far together as the planets in our solar system, but calculation 2 seems more likely as the assumption they're only slightly more than moon distance apart is absurd.

Jade being able to move things at rel+ speeds seems right, but I'm not buying she can't move herself at those speeds. It is more simple to move one object than numerous objects at the same time, after all. I'm sure that would divert quite a bit of focus.

Anyway, within the realms of relativistic seems fine for God Tiers and such, but I'm still not sure what to make of Jack.

Also, this could be me misremembering, but didn't Hussie's avatar move faster than light, before?

 

[The_Everlasting]

Yes, the Hussiebot moved hundreds of times FTL from a calc that now appears to be dead.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yes, the Hussiebot moved hundreds of times FTL from a calc that now appears to be dead.

Huh. Well then I wouldn't exactly trust Hussie on that "nothing can move faster than light" thing. Directly stated moments like "moving near lightspeed" should not be faster than light, but I suppose it means things can indeed go FTL, in universe.

 

[LordXcano]

Yes, the Hussiebot moved hundreds of times FTL from a calc that now appears to be dead.

In the WoG thing he claims he was moving at 0.3c, and he also explains that the area he was in had "weird spatial properties" allowing for shenanigans.

"I'm also really doubting Terezi's ten paragraph conversation took five hours, which seems to only assume the conversation was overly long and not that the jetpack was just really fast, which it obviously would have to be for interplanetary travel."

I know, I was just giving a really really long timespan to show that rel+ characters travelling between planets in less than a minute isn't absurd.

"That said, you make a good case for the planets not being as far together as the planets in our solar system, but calculation 2 seems more likely as the assumption they're only slightly more than moon distance apart is absurd."

It could be that the planets are just smaller than real ones, in fact I was going to make something about that. Just look at the ridiculous scaling between the disk on Dave's planet when Bro is standing on it and the size when the camera zooms out. That planet isn't that big.

"Jade being able to move things at rel+ speeds seems right, but I'm not buying she can't move herself at those speeds. It is more simple to move one object than numerous objects at the same time, after all. I'm sure that would divert quite a bit of focus.

Anyway, within the realms of relativistic seems fine for God Tiers and such, but I'm still not sure what to make of Jack."

Jack - Relativistic+ with travel speed, Infinite with teleportation

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I couldn't find the calc, but I found the original scene (starts here and goes on a few pages). Even from eyeballing it, Hussiebot moves much, much, MUCH faster than light, which screws over the nothing can move faster than light claims. I mean, like...Jade can't, but other things can.

 

[LordXcano]

I couldn't find the calc, but I found the original scene (starts here and goes on a few pages). Even from eyeballing it, Hussiebot moves much, much, MUCH faster than light, which screws over the nothing can move faster than light claims. I mean, like...Jade can't, but other things can.

Remember, Jade does say the place has weird properties (which is why relativity is reversed), and Hussie himself in the WoG says it's 0.3c. Yeah, 0.3c doesn't make sense but it could be he just got the seconds wrong (microsecond instead of nanosecond).

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

In the WoG thing he claims he was moving at 0.3c, and he also explains that the area he was in had "weird spatial properties" allowing for shenanigans.

Jack - Relativistic+ with travel speed, Infinite with teleportation

That WoG thing really doesn't strike me as a valid excuse. As I've said before, Hussie has repeatedly screwed things like this up, and then gone back to make something up as to how it would apply in universe.

Seems about right, I suppose. Was his teleportation able to take him to anywhere in the session, or am I misremembering?

 

[LordXcano]

His teleportation requires him to be in a universe where First Gaurdians exist (basically somewhere he can get direct access to Green Sun stuffs).

I'm alright with an FTL Hussie, but only within his verse, because as far as we can tell FTL things are only possible under specific conditions. (warp travel with the Psiionic, Green Sun power in universes, weird spatial plot properties)

EDIT: Wait wait, Hussie being FTL is based on his speed in comparison to Jade right? Doesn't the WoG say relativity is reversed (the faster she goes she ends up moving, ironically, slower)?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I'm fairly certain the speed is based on the fact that he did what he did before three nanoseconds passed.

 

[LordXcano]

Ah yeah, I guess. Whatever though, that scales to one character in one location. So far everyone seems to be in support of the downgrades though.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I've already started actually. lol

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Aaaaand done. Though this reminded me that I do need to go back and do some formatting fixes, sometime.