Orochi Upgrade (cont)

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

Despite the thread being closed, I feel that there was something I needed to address.

Basically, the general idea is that Orochi was able to tag Awakened Cockroach despite the latters aimdodge ability (which has a stated limit of lightspeed) and as a result, Orochi should have a speed rating of faster than light for being too fast for Awakened Cockroach to dodge.

The reasons provided for why Orochi shouldn't be faster than light felt unsatisfactory, such as people who are fast enough to render someones pre-cognition abilities useless doesn't neccesarily mean they are faster than their imposed limit (without any explanation given for that). One thing I did find was this example, but this wasn't how the scene went down at all. If Orochi had thrown two tentacles with AC dodging the first one, but being caught by the second it would hold true. However, it was the first (and only) tentacle which caught him out.

 

[Boros-fan]

Isn't the more likely explanation that cockroach man was just boasting when he claimed "light speed"

 

[Muuuuh]

C'mon people, The cockroach had no more legs lol

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

It's not necessarily false though, with his aimdodging ability (to move your body in advance to an attack due to sensing a killing intent) a light-speed attack wouldn't be much of a problem for him.

 

[Boros-fan]

It's not necessarily false though, with his aimdodging ability (to move your body in advance to an attack due to sensing a killing intent) a light-speed attack wouldn't be much of a problem for him.

That depends entirely on the distance its fired from.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Haven't we been through this already.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

That depends entirely on the distance its fired from.

Not at all, as he dodges beforehand rather than at the moment of an attack. Meaning before the attack is carried out, his body has already manuveared into a safe position. It's basic aimdodging stuff.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

Haven't we been through this already.

I'm addressing something which wasnt brought up in that prior thread, that the scenario Ryu used (second bullet catching spider-man out) doesn't apply to this one because of how different they are. Along with why exactly should someone who, with speed, can tag someone with passive pre-cognitive abilities not be above the limits of them?

 

[Dark649]

Something tells me that this will become a discussion rule to not bring up.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Alright I'd like to get two things down first.

1.Was the Cockroach able to move?

2.Was he even looking at Orochi or does his ability work regardless of if he's looking at you?

 

[The_Everlasting]

Aimdodging doesn't at all scale to speed.

Just because AC can supposedly dodge Lightspeed attacks via aimdodging doesn't mean someone would be FTL for blitzing him.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

1. Yes he was, that's how he managed to escape Genos and even got to the headquarters to begin with.

2. I don't know, but he was facing Orochi; by proxy, the tentacle which pierced him (if he wasn't, the tentacles would have entered through his back rather than torso).

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

Aimdodging doesn't at all scale to speed.
Just because AC can supposedly dodge Lightspeed attacks via aimdodging doesn't mean someone would be FTL for blitzing him.

Right, but this isn't a Batman case where the aimdodge is determined by accurately predicting what a shooter might do. But rather, more similar to a Spider-Man case where the threat is detected via sensory methods instead; the latter actually has that present in their profile along with it's limitations (relatvistic speed). So, if someone were fast enough to blitz Spider-Man shouldnt their speed above the limitations of the spider-sense?

 

[Boros-fan]

2.Was he even looking at Orochi or does his ability work regardless of if he's looking at you?

His ability is unconcious auto-dodge. His body senses killing intent.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

@Austrian-Man-Meat alright thanks.

Ok so Awakened Cockroach can dodge lightspeed Attacks by aimdodging. Meaning before an attack is fire he predicts where it will go and move right before it's shot.

So wouldn't that mean Orochi was too fast for him to predict so he couldn't move before Orochi moved. So if AC can predict and move from lightspeed Attacks but couldn't predict Orochi wouldn't that mean Orochi is faster then the lightspeed Attacks AC can aimdodge.

This is if he was actually telling the truth. I don't want to annoy anyone because I don't understand but it would be helpful if someone can explain it to me why he wouldn't be faster then said lightspeed Attacks (if AC was telling the truth).

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Aimdodging doesn't scale to speed.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

Aimdodging doesn't scale to speed.

Read reply to Everlasting.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also, prove that the Cockroach isn't talking out of their ass.

"Even if you could attack at the speed of light" sounds like a clear hyperbolic statement, and boasting, rather than a conclusive claim.

We need actual quantifiable feats that prove that Cockroach can aimdodge Lightspeed attacks. Because we have none.

This is the equivalent of a character shouting "I am lightning fast", and we making them MHS+.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Read reply to Everlasting.

Read it, and it's false. You don't need to be Lightspeed to blitz Spider-Man. Aimdodging has little to do with your actual speed.

And I don't even think Spider-Man has Relativistic - Lightspeed reactions, even though I could show you over 10 feats of Spider-Man reacting to explictely, proven Lightspeed attacks, because I think it's an outlier.

Cockroach doesn't even have a feat. He has a hyperbolic line.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

This is the equivalent of a character shouting "I am lightning fast", and we making them MHS+.

Not really, all this guy is saying is that he can aimdodge light-speed attacks thanks to good old pre-cognition. Which doesn't sound suspect at all.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Not really, all this guy is saying is that he can aimdodge light-speed attacks thanks to good old pre-cognition. Which doesn't sound suspect at all.

No, we suspect.

Where is the proof? This is hearsay. He is just saying that he can do something without ever doing it.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

"No, we suspect"

What is there to suspect about being able to aimdodge an attack that hasn't happened yet thanks to a warning before-hand. Even the both of us would be able to achieve that.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

If Cockroach said "I can blow up a planet", would you have believed him? No.

If he said "I can cross the galaxy in a second", would you have believed him? No.

If he said "I can bend space-time with my mind", would you have believed him? No.

So why do you believe that he can aimdodge Lightspeed attacks when he never has done that, and speeds of these magnitudes have never been demonstrated in One Punch Man even when coming from God-Tiers?

 

[LazyHunter]

Yeah, that's a clear hyperbole statement given the lack of any feat to support it. It's just the guy boasting. Not to mention aimdodging doesn't count as reactions since the character acts before the attack happens. Also, given how his precog works, for all we know Orochi killed him by attacking without killing intent, rendering his precog null.

 

[Beyond21]

Aimdodging doesn't scale to speed.

cockroach doesnt have aimdodge. he has a sixth sense. its an ability where his body moves on its own when he's being attacked. its a little different from aimdodge

 

[Blademan9999]

Also, if you look closely you'll notice that Awakened cockroach was clearly missing the lower part of his legs, he's not going to be able to move as fast as he previously could.


And also aim dodging is less effective against homing attacks, which melee attacks often effectivey are to some degree or another.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

Also, given how his precog works, for all we know Orochi killed him by attacking without killing intent, rendering his precog null.

Possibly, didn't really think of that scenario.

 

[Ryukama]

My point doesn't rely at all on whether or not Orochi threw 1 or 2 tentacles at him. The point is that aimdodging does not scale to reactions. So if you blitz the reactions of someone who is able aimdodge fast attacks, that doesn't mean your speed scales to what they can aimdodge. It only scales to that person's reactions, which are typically far slower than aimdodging.

Also I was trying to be somewhat generous in the thread. In all honesty even if he was simply saying he aimdodges faster than light, it's a hyperbole. He has no feats of dodging lightspeed attacks. Someone who is vastly superior to him who can also aimdodge has no feats of dodging lightspeed attacks. The best speed showings in the series are hundreds of times slower (like cough cough Garuda) Plus how biased are we going to seem when like a 20 paragraph explanation blog full of every source in existence was needed for us to reluctantly accept Cell's statement, yet for this we'll just let it slide willy nilly?

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

My point doesn't rely at all on whether or not Orochi threw 1 or 2 tentacles at him. The point is that aimdodging does not scale to reactions. So if you blitz the reactions of someone who is able aimdodge fast attacks, that doesn't mean your speed scales to what they can aimdodge. It only scales to that person's reactions, which are typically far slower

I'm aware that aimdodging doesn't scale to reactions, but if we were to have a hypothetical scenario of a guy bullrushing Spider-Man at such a pace that even his spider-sense isn't able to detect him, why shouldnt that person have speeds above the limitations of the Spider-Sense?

As for Awakened Cockroach, I am 100% certain he can aimdodge lightspeed attacks (so could me and you.) However, as to whether or not his pre-cognition is able to detect lightspeed attacks was something I didn't take into consideration.

 

[Beyond21]

i find it weird that ONE would have this logic "hmm.... im gonna write this panel where this character says he could dodge lightspeed attacks, but in reality, he cant, hes just boasting, its a lie"

lmao. i really dont care though.

 

[Ryukama]

Most aimdodgers can't detect or predict every single attack that comes at them. That's how they're ever to get hit. It's not a matter of outpacing their aimdodge rather either blitzing their reactions like I said or their attack not being sensed. Especially when predicting relies on sensing the killing intent of someone.

Well we need more evidence for such a huge upgrade than you being 100% certain. How about this? When Garou, someone far faster than AC with even better aimdodging than him shows to dodge something even 1/100 as fast as what AC claims, I'll take the statement a bit more seriously. Or when every single source in existence all says AC is FTL. This isn't any more unfair than how we've treated other series.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

i find it weird that ONE would have this logic "hmm.... im gonna write this panel where this character says he could dodge lightspeed attacks, but in reality, he cant, hes just boasting, its a lie"
lmao. i really dont care though.

That's the point of being analytical.

Author intent doesn't matter. What matters is the objective evidence of it being true or not.

In this case, there is none.

 

[Beyond21]

where did you get that garou is a better aimdodger than AC? never in the manga or webcomic did it say this. garou is certainly faster, but idk about aimdodging

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

where did you get that garou is a better aimdodger than AC? never in the manga or webcomic did it say this. garou is certainly faster, but idk about aimdodging

Garou aimdodged attacks from Saitama in their fight, and points out that his technique involves him predicting the opponent's moved timed with his breathing, allowing him for perfect reactions.

Aimdodging Saitama >>> Anything Cockroach ever did.

 

[Ryukama]

Garou's entire thing is him being a godlike martial artist, able to sense and predict his opponent's movements and actions even when extremely spontaneous and unable to be seen and like you said used this ability to dodge a few super casual attacks from Saitama. I'm pretty sure he could aimdodge something better than AC. Either way that doesn't change my point at all. It's still a hyperbole.

EDIT: Also pretty much what Matt said.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Going back to the Spider-Man comparison...

I just love that a comicbook character can have explict, conclusive feats like this:

• Dodges a laser stated to be Lightspeed
• Dodges lasers agai
• Dodges Cyclops' eye blasts which have been explictly said to be lightspeed, multiple times in fact
• Tags Lightmaster who is Lightspeed
• Dodges Lightmaster' Lightspeed Blasts
• Dodges Iron Man's Repulsor Blasts , which are stated to be lightspeed

And yet the initial response of everyone is to want to look at the character's history to determine consistency, and analyze each feat individually (Which is the correct approach).

Meanwhile a character from a manga has a single boasting statement he never demonstrates in terms of feats, and you'll have people thinking it's 100% conclusive and wanting to upgrade the entire verse.

So no, if Spider-Man isn't considered FTL because of the above, Cockroach and Orochi ain't getting it either.

 

[Cropfist]

• Dodges Cyclops' eye blasts which have been explictly said to be lightspeed, multiple times in fact

Cyclops' beams have calcs putting them at MHS.

 

[Ryukama]

Matt's overall point is that we're clearly putting some verses at vastly greater scruntiny than others.

 

[LordXcano]

I have no clue where this idea that Garou can "aimdodge better" than AC came from. There's no "speed" to aimdodging, just how long you can tell something in advance. Someone who can literally precog an attack and automatically dodge it is objectively a better aimdodger than someone who's just "a really sick martial artist". Whether or not Garou aimdodged something coming at 100,000,000c and AC dodged something coming at 10 m/s is irrelevant to that.

"Also I was trying to be somewhat generous in the thread. In all honesty even if he was simply saying he aimdodges faster than light, it's a hyperbole. He has no feats of dodging lightspeed attacks."

Since when have we ever actually needed feats to back up claims outside of Cell? We've had no problem accepting:

• Zeno destroying 6 universes before he even did anything outside of appearing on screen

• Extrapolating a random Toad saying Bowser made some worlds in paintings as to meaning that he not only created a real sized map but also the stars around it

• Extrapolating Lord English being Hyperversal based on a statement that he destroys space-time and then further saying that that space-time is 10+D based on loose references to an unrelated series

• The Endless being 1-B based on someone describing them as "wave functions"

• Captain Underpants being Planet level off of a statement

Hell you could count most feats above "multiversal" as statements since it isn't like higher dimensions are ever shown on-screen.

Claiming the feat is "hyperbole" based on pretty much nothing isn't really all that different from the people saying it would be stupid for ONE to include the line if it wasn't meant to show how fast Cockroach is.

But besides that, none of these analogies work.

Say Superman is going to start a series of punches with 0.0001 seconds between each one. Batman can know this is coming a second before it does and he can position himself to avoid the first punch. However, every punch afterwards is going to hit him because he just isn't quick enough to avoid that.

If Orochi tagged Cockroach like this that'd be fine. Except he didn't.

In this case it's like punching so fast Batman's "aimdodge sense" can't even register it and that 1 second forewarning doesn't matter. Since we know "Batman" has said his "aimdodge sense" is good enough to register an attack at lightspeed then "Superman" must be FTL.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Crop

This scene states they are lightspeed to the point of flat out giving the Miles per Hour number for the speed of light.

My point is that some verses are always under vastly greater scruntiny than others because favouritism.