Orochi Upgrade (cont)

[LordGriffin1000]

Oh not the Cell thing again and now Zeno's 6 universe Destruction come on man.

Cell stomps dozens of people who stomps first form Frieza who is Dwarf star level and they go through transformations and Cell gained a Zenkai.

Zeno has already destroyed a universe no problem and has multiple statements saying how powerful he is.

 

[Beyond21]

yes, garou is defintely faster than AC, but theres zero proof that he has better aimdodge, since aimdodge has nothing to do with speed. AC has an actual aimdodge ability whereas garou just uses his martial arts skills to predict when and where an attack will land. AC definitely has better aimdodge

 

[LordXcano]

Matt's overall point is that we're clearly putting some verses at vastly greater scruntiny than others.

Ryu I can promise you Marvel and DC are under the least amount of scrutiny on planet Earth. Anybody who can unironically say Spider-Man is "Small Town MHS" based on "consistent feats and intense analyzation" is either lying or has never actually properly sat down and read a comic book.

 

[Ryukama]

Zen'ō's is a statement of Whis, an extremely reliable source saying that Zen'ō actually once did destroy 6 universes. Not Zen'ō himself boasting that he could destroy 6 universes. I wasn't too fond of the Captain Underpants thing but other people seemed fine with it so I kinda gave up on it. I don't know about the other instances.

However we didn't accept Garuda being FTL just cause he said so. We didn't accept Burter being FTL just because he said he is. We didn't accept Blackholeian being Universe level just because he said he is. We do consider some things to be a hyperbole or don't immdediately accept a statement when nothing else supports it. Or when said statement is completely out of the league for what character even more powerful than them have ever done.

Or perhaps Cockroach couldn't predict or sense that his attack was going to be made. But either way not accepting this statement is fine with how we've treated other similar things.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"Since when have we ever actually needed feats to back up claims outside of Cell?"

We always require feats. Even the examples you list are pulled out of the context of their own verse, and of what is or isn't common and unheard in their verse.

Statements can be easily accepted depending on the character and verse. If a character in Saint Seiya said he was faster than light despite never being in a physical fight, I'd be 100% inclined to believe he was since FTL speeds is the most common power in the world in that series. But if a Fairy Tail or RWBY character said they were? Well, more proof is needed.

"The Endless being 1-B based on someone describing them as "wave functions""

No, it's because there are multiple levels of infinite-dimensional reality they exist above, and compose.

"Hell you could count most feats above "multiversal" as statements since it isn't like higher dimensions are ever shown on-screen."

This is blatantly false.

"Claiming the feat is "hyperbole" based on pretty much nothing isn't really all that different "

No, it isn't.

It is a hyperbole until proven otherwise. I would think that you of all people would agree with this concept.

Bringing up ONE's authorial intent (Which likely also includes Saitama being invincible and one-shotting everyone, mind you) is meaningless because in order to clinically analyze a character's power and feats, we need to treat what we are reading / seeing as if it were a depiction of real events in that universe, not as a work of fiction with an author. This is something Mike Wong already established back in 2002.

Meanwhile, saying that Cockroach was just boasting is very likely, as there is no feats to confirm his exclamatory statement about his speed.

 

[LordXcano]

@Ryu Idk who Garuda is so I can't comment on that.

DBZ is well known for how much scrutiny we place on it compared to everything else so Burter is predictable too.

Blackholeian at least has other character statements saying he's weaker than he says, so there's actual evidence of hyperbole in that case.

"No, it's because there are multiple levels of infinite-dimensional reality they exist above, and compose."

Pretty sure the "infinite dimensional reality" thing is based on the wave function statement in the first place.

"Hell you could count most feats above "multiversal" as statements since it isn't like higher dimensions are ever shown on-screen."

Scans?

"It is a hyperbole until proven otherwise. I would think that you of all people would agree with this concept."

Isn't this like, the exact opposite of "innocent until proven guilty"? You don't really assume someone is a liar unless you have proof for it.

"This is something Mike Wong already established back in 2002."

Mike Wong is outdated and overrated.

"Meanwhile, saying that Cockroach was just boasting is very likely, as there is no feats to confirm his exclamatory statement about his speed."

It wasn't a statement of his speed though, just how good his precog is. Didn't you just use statements of Cyclops' beams being lightspeed above to prove one of your points?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Ryu I can promise you Marvel and DC are under the least amount of scrutiny on planet Earth. Anybody who can unironically say Spider-Man is "Small Town MHS" based on "consistent feats and intense analyzation" is either lying or has never actually properly sat down and read a comic book.

You're right. He's not MHS, he is MHS+

 

[Ryukama]

And that's the point. DBZ and other verses are put under vastly greater scrutiny than other series and it isn't fair or balanced. Cell makes a statement of himself, you need 20 paragraphs of every source in existence only for us to be reluctantly accepting of it. Burter makes one statement of himself being FTL, it's immediately rejected and made a joke out of. AC makes one statement of himself being FTL, it's perfectly acceptable.

Blackholeian still wouldn't be accepted if it were one Universe level statement amidst a series with feats that max at Mountain+.

Garuda was rejected for all the same arguments one can say here. Garuda had no feats on the level of his claim. No other statements back up his claim. People faster than him don't show feats even 1/100 as fast as his claim. Yet with AC it's even worse since at least Garuda was kinda a top tier. AC is fodder with people who are pretty much gods compared to him, yet they still show nothing remotely close to his claim.

 

[Cropfist]

While hyperbole played a part FTL Fist of the North Star was mainly rejected because of translation issues. When was Burter stated as FTL?

 

[Ryukama]

There was no translation issues. Garuda's statement was considered by a translator to be a figure of speech. And one of the main most argued points was the fact that people faster than him don't show feats anywhere remotely close to his claim. That was pretty much the main reason it was turned down.

Somewhere in the manga Burter has denial of Goku outpacing him and says something along the lines of "No way! I'm faster than light!" or something.

 

[Ryukama]

C'mon guys there is no need to personally attack users or try to use unrelated things to immediately discredit what they are saying now.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"Pretty sure the "infinite dimensional reality" thing is based on the wave function statement in the first place."

Now you are just being ignorant.

It's because both Rama Kushna and Seena stated that the multiverse has infinite dimensions, and upon asked, the writers confirmed they were talking about spatial dimensions.

"Scans"

Read any powerful fiction.

"Isn't this like, the exact opposite of "innocent until proven guilty"? You don't really assume someone is a liar unless you have proof for it."

That's not the same thing. VersusDebating are less akin to a Court Room and more akin to a scientific study. In the Scientific Method, you need proof and evidence. Same thing here.

"Mike Wong is outdated and overrated."

Just because you don't like him doesn't mean he's wrong in this case. Then again it doesn't surprise me you dislike him since you are from Spacebattles.

"Didn't you just use statements of Cyclops' beams being lightspeed above to prove one of your points"

Did you even look at the scan? They state that Cyclops' Optic Blasts are moving at 186000 miles per seconds, which is 1c. And they also state that they are lightspeed three other times.

Completely different from a character saying "I can dodge Lightspeed!" and then not doing anything to prove it.

 

[LordXcano]

@Matt

"You're right. He's not MHS, he is MHS+"




Don't see a plus there.

"And that's the point. DBZ and other verses are put under vastly greater scrutiny than other series and it isn't fair or balanced. Cell makes a statement of himself, you need 20 paragraphs of every source in existence only for us to be reluctantly accepting of it. Burter makes one statement of himself being FTL, it's immediately rejected and made a joke out of. AC makes one statement of himself being FTL, it's perfectly acceptable."

I know. All of these should've been accepted unless there was proof against them. I'm not saying OPM should be an exception while everything else needs high scrutiny, I'm saying it should always be like OPM.

"Yet with AC it's even worse since at least Garuda was kinda a top tier. AC is fodder with people who are pretty much gods compared to him, yet they still show nothing remotely close to his claim."

Again, you're treating AC's statement as "I can dodge light", which isn't the case. His statement would not be backed up by good speed feats, it's a statement that he has really good precog.

 

[Ryukama]

I'm removing the unrelated comments and ad hominems. They have no place here.

 

[Ryukama]

Even if the aimdodge isn't based upon purely reaction speed, he still makes a claim of what his ability can do that isn't proven at all, which would not at all be accepted for anything else here. Or by people who have shown to have better forms of precog and can do better things with their aimdodging.

He doesn't have any other feats or statements with this ability rather than his own word to support what he can do, and we're now going to use this upgrade a good part of the series down the line. Which is contrary to how we'd do this with anything else.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I must say I really doubt the sincerity of Xcano's above support of Lightspeed Orochi. It sorta goes against everything he "stood for" in the past, when he was Staff.

If memory serves, he had a whole blog about VersusDebating where he explained his standards, in which he said we'd have to:

1) Consider statements hyperbole or false until proven otherwise

2) If statements are accepted, we should always 100% go with the lowest end possible of the feat.

I.e, if a character says "I will destroy the planet", he would suggest that A) It's not the surface and B) Over a period of time.

So yeah, either Xcano took a complete 180, is contradicting his own logic, or isn't being serious / sincere in his arguments in this thread.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Somewhere in the manga Burter has denial of Goku outpacing him and says something along the lines of "No way! I'm faster than light!" or something.

I think that was actually an edited scan. Burter just tells Goku he's the fastest in the universe in the Viz version

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-xDtAq7I1O...urZHi54mL3MJfmM8HKpvMACHM/s16000/0088-002.png

If you're familiar with Japanese I can get the raw scan

 

[Ryukama]

Alright but that line was still deemed a hyperbole regardless of whether or not it was the proper translation.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Well we already new Butter was lying Because he's not even faster then Frieza and just got blitzed by Goku so no one can take him seriously.

Anyway so what about this thread, is everything settled?.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I would just close this at this point since nobody accepted it.

 

[Blademan9999]

Is everyone forgetting the fact that AWAKENDE COCKROACH WAS HEAVILY INJURED when he was killed.


And was killed by an attack (like most other melee attacks) that's capable of changing direction.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

This still doesn't mean Awakened Cockroach wasn't just boasting about his claim.

 

[Ryop]

But why are you saying this ia aimdodging? AC claim he has FTL reflexes,not that he use aim dodging

 

[Beyond21]

Boi no. AC has a sixth sense.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Matthew and Ryukama. Feel free to close this thread if you wish.