OPM monster cell upgrades

[Tural2004]

A few days ago, I talked about monster cell multipliers. It seems like majority agree about that. Neito Monoma in MHA, his quirk hitting a second time that's several times stronger has been accepted between 3x and 11x. I will use the same multipliers. To lowball let's use 3× when someone upscales and 11× when downscales.


Atomic Samurai:


Basically all of ends in the original calculation gets multiplied by 3. If I am not mistaken, Mach 3550 was accepted end. So mach 10650 (sub-relativistic).


Btw Haragiri's speech implies that his hand moves at that speed when he uses sword. The sword itself should be faster. For example, if the sword has the same length as his arm, the tip of sword would move 2 times faster. But it will give the same result(sub-relativistic) anyway.


Another thing I want to note is that it seems like Atomic Samurai damages Jet-Orochi more than Darkshine. But I don't know if it is rejected during last CRT.


Atomic Samurai


Tiering: At least 7-A, possibly higher, at least high 7-A with Atomic Beeline Slash, possibly higher (this looks ugly lmao)


Speed: At least Massively Hypersonic (Intercepted God Blast from Psykos without any problems. Darkshine stated that he could easily defeat Half-Monster Garou. Able to react to and counter Evil Natural Water's high-pressure jets), with at least sub-relativistic attack speed


Gale Wind and Hellfire Flame:
Their human forms should downscale. At their monsters forms they are 15% of speed of light. So basically we divide it by 11. The answer is 0.136c (almost baseline sub-relativistic)


Sonic:


Might downscale from ninja bros. Either MHS+ or Sub-relativistic.


Human Gouketsu:


Human form can be added for him as a key. He is baseline Large Mountain Level(1 Gigatons). Divinding it by 11 would give 90 megatons.


Speed is the main problem. If I know correct, he upscales from Garou (mach 112). That means human Gouketsu would be hypersonic+ which is underwhelming. But I think as the first champion he should upscale from Suiryu who upscales from Iaian who is Mach 42. Gouketsu can get high hypersonic+ (mach 50). This is much better. And I just realized it while writing this. That would make monster Gouketsu mach 550 if we used the same multiplier to calculate AP(lol)


Human Bakuzan:


This one is tricky since he ate multiple cells and we don't what happens when someone does it. But you can't monsterize a monster so I will use a multiplier for one cell. So large town level for AP and Supersonic+ for speed.


Possible upgrade for Black Sperm and Golden Sperm(?):
Yesterday I realized I never saw a kinetic energy calculation for him so I decided to do one. I will use some information from webcomic. I don't think it would count as cross-scaling.


The main problem is that we don't know mass of Black Sperm. So I will use lithium (the lightest solid element, 530 kg/m^3) as a reference.


Since I don't know how to do pixel scaling, I will use a rough estimation.


At this panel we can see Black Sperm is rougly four times smaller than Saitama. Based on this, Black Sperm's volume should be 64 times smaller than Saitama. According to this site, human body has the density of 1010 kg/m^3. Saitama is 70 kg. Saitama's volume is 70/1010.


To calculate kinetic energy:


70÷1010(Saitama's volume)÷64(Volume difference between BS and Saitama)×530(the density of lithium)×11449001712554(the number of cells)× 34300^2(the low end of MHS speed squared)÷2 = 3,86543546e21 Joules (Small country level)


If this gets accepted I think tiering of BS should be something like this.


Varies, up to at least 7-A, possibly low 6-B at its peak | At least low 6-B

Btw according to popular headcanon Atomic Samurai can react to Flashy Flash. So let's upscale Haragiri from Iaian. Relativistic+ Atomic, let's gooo!

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Possible upgrade for Black Sperm and Golden Sperm(?):
Yesterday I realized I never saw a kinetic energy calculation for him so I decided to do one. I will use some information from webcomic. I don't think it would count as cross-scaling.

The main problem is that we don't know mass of Black Sperm. So I will use lithium (the lightest solid element, 530 kg/m^3) as a reference.

Since I don't know how to do pixel scaling, I will use a rough estimation.

At this panel we can see Black Sperm is rougly four times smaller than Saitama. Based on this, Black Sperm's volume should be 64 times smaller than Saitama. According to this site, human body has the density of 1010 kg/m^3. Saitama is 70 kg. Saitama's volume is 70/1010.

To calculate kinetic energy:

70÷1010(Saitama's volume)÷64(Volume difference between BS and Saitama)×530(the density of lithium)×11449001712554(the number of cells)× 34300^2(the low end of MHS speed squared)÷2 = 3,86543546e21 Joules (Small country level)

If this gets accepted I think tiering of BS should be something like this.

Varies, up to at least 7-A, possibly low 6-B at its peak | At least low 6-B

It... technically is Crosscaling. Plus you need to put calcs in a blog and have it accepted before making a CRT

Sonic:


Might downscale from ninja bros. Either MHS+ or Sub-relativistic.

The Ninja bros toyed with him, so no.

But I think as the first champion he should upscale from Suiryu

Why?

Human form can be added for him as a key. He is baseline Large Mountain Level(1 Gigatons). Divinding it by 11 would give 90 megatons.

We see how large the gap between a human and a monster can be. I don't think dividing it like that works.

Tbh I think the multipliers just make the already janky scaling chains on the profiles worse but considering that I'm busy with other VSBW projects I'll discuss this another time

 

[Tural2004]

It.. technically is Crosscaling. Plus you need to uput calcs in a blog and have it accepted before making a CRT

Damn. Also, I don't know how to create a blog.

The Ninja bros toyed with him, so no.

There is more than 8 times difference between the low end of MHS+ and sub-relativistic. I think it should be fine. If even their base forms were that much faster than Sonic, he would be catched completely off guard.

Why?

If I remember correctly, the first tournament was considered the hardest. Also, Suiryu considers Gouketsu first rate martial artist. He should at least be comparable to Suiryu.

We see how large the gap between a human and a monster can be. I don't think dividing it like that works.

Why shouldn't it work? I use the low end. There are already 7B humans. Also 11× gap is already very big.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Damn. Also, I don't know how to create a blog.

You need a wiki profile to do so. Do you have one? Afterwards, go to the blog section on your page and click "Create blog". Once you've written you're blog. Just press publish or save

There is 8 times difference between the low end of MHS+ and sub-relativistic. I think it should be fine. If even their base forms were tha muvh faster than Sonic, he would be catched completely off guard.

No? They clearly weren't using their full speed against him and weren't even serious on fighting him. Why would they use their full speed on him?

If I remember correctly, the first tournament was considered the hardest. Also, Suiryu considers Gouketsu first rate martial artist. He should at least be comparable to Suiryu.

The scans?

Why shouldn't it work? I use the low end. Also 11× gap is already very big.

Because we see characters like Choze go from at least 8-C to Low 7-C, a gap of over a thousand mind you.

 

[Tural2004]

No? They clearly weren't using their full speed against him and weren't even serious on fighting him. Why would they use their full speed on him?

I am not saying they were using their full speed. I am saying they were most likely using more than 10th of their speed. If the gap is even higher than that they could casually catch him off guard.

The scans?

scan 1
scan 2

Because we see characters like Choze go from at least 8-C to Low 7-C, a gap of over a thousand mind you.

That would just mean base Choze is far stronger than 8-C. "At least" is there for a reason.

 

[ByAsura]

Please don't just copy-paste the urls or insert the images. The images are massive and cause loading problems. I've edited them into links.

On the topic of this thread, I'll give my opinions in a moment.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I am not saying they were using their full speed. I am saying they were most likely using more than 10th of their speed. If the gap is even higher than that they could casually catch him off guard.

You can't just assume a fraction like that without more evidence

Fair enough on the Suiryu part

That would just mean base Choze is far stronger than 8-C. "At least" is there for a reason.

Yeah, and we still don't know how much. Plus Bakuzan went from being much weaker than Suiryu to becoming much stronger than him

 

[ByAsura]

Another thing I want to note is that it seems like Atomic Samurai damages Jet-Orochi more than Darkshine. But I don't know if it is rejected during last CRT.

I wouldn't say so. The beeline slash cut off a single wing section, while Darkshine caved in the entire body and made it useless.

Also, I really hate that he has a 7-A, possibly 7-A+. That first part wasn't part of the revisions, and even the person who proposed it eventually agreed it wasn't right. Post-Orochi Garou wasn't even supposed to be on the profiles because we couldn't even agree on how strong he was. We just agreed to scale Flash/AS above casual DS.

Speed: At least Massively Hypersonic (Intercepted God Blast from Psykos without any problems. Darkshine stated that he could easily defeat Half-Monster Garou. Able to react to and counter Evil Natural Water's high-pressure jets), with at least sub-relativistic attack speed

Wouldn't his reaction and combat speed be comparable? He can coordinate thousands of strikes in mere moments, so that probably requires similar reaction time.

Gale Wind and Hellfire Flame:
Their human forms should downscale. At their monsters forms they are 15% of speed of light. So basically we divide it by 11. The answer is 0.136c (almost baseline sub-relativistic)

Sonic:

Might downscale from ninja bros. Either MHS+ or Sub-relativistic.

I'm with Emirp here, they were going easy on him.

Is it possible they used more than 1/10th of their speed, yes, but that's for you to prove since you're making the claim.

Human Gouketsu:

Human form can be added for him as a key. He is baseline Large Mountain Level(1 Gigatons). Divinding it by 11 would give 90 megatons.

Speed is the main problem. If I know correct, he upscales from Garou (mach 112). That means human Gouketsu would be hypersonic+ which is underwhelming. But I think as the first champion he should upscale from Suiryu who upscales from Iaian who is Mach 42. Gouketsu can get high hypersonic+ (mach 50). This is much better. And I just realized it while writing this. That would make monster Gouketsu mach 550 if we used the same multiplier to calculate AP(lol)

Human Bakuzan:

This one is tricky since he ate multiple cells and we don't what happens when someone does it. But you can't monsterize a monster so I will use a multiplier for one cell. So large town level for AP and Supersonic+ for speed.

This is where we start to get into Bleach territory because a lot of these numbers don't make sense with the series context. Atomic Samurai upscaling might be fine, but you've got a random (both narratively and in-series) non-hero martial artist as stronger than most S-Classes, and now Bakuzan is stronger than Suiryu.

He took multiple cells at the same time, he didn't become a monster until way later.

70÷1010(Saitama's volume)÷64(Volume difference between BS and Saitama)×530(the density of lithium)×11449001712554(the number of cells)× 34300^2(the low end of MHS speed squared)÷2 = 3,86543546e21 Joules (Small country level)

That's calc stacking.

If there were 11 trillion cells and they moved at the speed of sound, or something, in that scene, then that would be applicable.

 

[Tural2004]

You can't just assume a fraction like that without more evidence

Yes, but saying they were using less than 10th of their speed doesn't seem right. Let's make a comparison. Average walking speed 2-4 mph. Average runner speed 10-15 mph. There is 7.5 times difference at best.

Yeah, and we still don't know how much.

That depends if the multiplier gets accepted or not.

Plus Bakuzan went from being much weaker than Suiryu to becoming much stronger than him

We don't know how much weaker he was. Even 2× is very big

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Wouldn't his reaction and combat speed be comparable? He can coordinate thousands of strikes in mere moments, so that probably requires similar reaction time.

We agreed that AM has attack speed higher than his normal speed because his attacks can apparently blitz BS while BS could blitz normal AS or something.

Yes, but saying they were using less than 10th of their speed doesn't seem right. Let's make a comparison. Average walking speed 2-4 mph. Average runner speed 10-15 mph. There is 7.5 times difference at best.

Again, it's an assumption. You need more solid evidence than "It doesn't feel right to me"

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Also, I really hate that he has a 7-A, possibly 7-A+. That first part wasn't part of the revisions, and even the person who proposed it eventually agreed it wasn't right. Post-Orochi Garou wasn't even supposed to be on the profiles because we couldn't even agree on how strong he was. We just agreed to scale Flash/AS above casual DS.

What's the problem here exactly?

 

[ByAsura]

I'll deal with that later.

We agreed that AM has attack speed higher than his normal speed because his attacks can apparently blitz BS while BS could blitz normal AS or something.

To me, that seems like BS is just taking them because he has no need to dodge (AS' disintegrating slash was redrawn out of existence). He even avoids the first blow, and typically hits AS while surrounding him.

BS just scales to AS, anyway.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Fair I suppose. Tho I take it that you disagree with the multipliers? If so, can AM scale to his MHS+?

 

[ByAsura]

Maybe not necessarily (although I don't get the whole 11x, because several is just 3-4), but at least for the downscaling stuff. It doesn't help that Phoenix Man, who went from a normal human to a Demon level threat, said this.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

And the Atomic Samurai thing?

 

[Tural2004]

I wouldn't say so. The beeline slash cut off a single wing section, while Darkshine caved in the entire body and made it useless.

Fair enough.

Wouldn't his reaction and combat speed be comparable? He can coordinate thousands of strikes in mere moments, so that probably requires similar reaction time.

Idk. I just edited whatever was on his page.

Is it possible they used more than 1/10th of their speed, yes, but that's for you to prove since you're making the claim.

What about comparison I made above? I mean low-end average walking vs high end of average running. They say they were being playful. We can conclude that they were being extremely casual instead of holding back.

This is where we start to get into Bleach territory because a lot of these numbers don't make sense with the series context. Atomic Samurai upscaling might be fine, but you've got a random (both narratively and in-series) non-hero martial artist as stronger than most S-Classes,

I mean narratively there are people stronger than pro heroes (Council, Bomb, BoS Genos and Saitama etc). It doesn't matter if we know them or not. For example according to narrator, Saitama took down organizations comparable to MA but we still don't know who are they. And 7B isn't stronger than most of S-class. Blast, Tatsumaki, Bang, Atomic Samurai, Metal Knight, King(supposedly), Drive Knight, Darkshine, Flashy Flash and Genos are stronger. It is clear that WDM and Pig "god" (trump card) will end up being stronger. Metal Bat is most likely about to get new feats. That leaves PPP and TTM. The weakest S-class heroes.

and now Bakuzan is stronger than Suiryu.
He took multiple cells at the same time, he didn't become a monster until way later.

Lol, I just noticed it. I guess Bakuzan upgrade should be discarded. Or maybe Suiryu should scale higher. I am thinking about other methods.

"Matched with Garou evenly in OVA."

"Thought he can easily defeat Garou even though he saw him easily winning championship."

"Should be stronger than human Bakuzan"

But I guess none of this is enough evidence to scale Suiryu to low 7-B.

Btw I remember someone saying vaporization can be used to calculate Choze's feat since he has same type energy as Homeless Emperor. It might give different ending

That's calc stacking.

Why? If you're saying that because of MHS speed, I am not using calculated end(mahc 112). I am just using low end of MHS. I don't think that counts as calc stacking

 

[ByAsura]

@Emirp Like I said, I'm not sure.

 

[Tural2004]

although I don't get the whole 11x

I don't know what's the high end of "several" so I used what's accepted for another character

 

[USklaverei]

The Atomic thing I'm not sure about the multipliers, but I think a peak Bang should escalate since Atomic considers it fast.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Btw I remember someone saying vaporization can be used to calculate Choze's feat since he has same type energy as Homeless Emperor. It might give different ending

I'm not sure how Vaporization is relevant to Suiryu's cloud feat

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Why? If you're saying that because of MHS speed, I am not using calculated end(mahc 112). I am just using low end of MHS. I don't think that counts as calc stacking

Except why MHS? You need evidence for that

 

[Tural2004]

I'm not sure how Vaporization is relevant to Suiryu's cloud feat

Doesn't Suiryu scale higher than Choze? If part of cloud got vaporized that could give a new end and Suiryu would probably scale higher.

Except why MHS? You need evidence for that

I am using speed of Black Sperm. Isn't he labelled as MHS?

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Doesn't Suiryu scale higher than Choze? If part of cloud got vaporized that could give a new end and Suiryu would probably scale higher.

That's not what the feat is? The Low 7-C feat is Suiryu yeeting the ball into the air, causing the clouds to split apart. It has nothing to do with vaporising

I am using speed of Black Sperm. Isn't he labelled as MHS?

His MHS is from scaling. Plus his speed varies. And that is calc stacking.

 

[ByAsura]

What about comparison I made above? I mean low-end average walking vs high end of average running. They say they were being playful. We can conclude that they were being extremely casual instead of holding back.

If you're looking at speed, that's not how it works. For example, Saitama can run and still match Genos' casual speed.

I mean narratively there are people stronger than pro heroes (Council, Bomb, BoS Genos and Saitama etc). It doesn't matter if we know them or not.

It very much does. All of those characters actually have narrative standing. Also, the Council (whose power levels we don't actually know) and BoS Genos aren't stronger than a ton of S-Class (Genos only surpasses PPP by this point), and Saitama is literally the main character of the series.

For example according to narrator, Saitama took down organizations comparable to MA but we still don't know who are they.

Proof? And they could easily be monsters.

And 7B isn't stronger than most of S-class. Blast, Tatsumaki, Bang, Atomic Samurai, Metal Knight, King(supposedly), Drive Knight, Darkshine, Flashy Flash and Genos are stronger.

Still like half of S-Class. Yet Gouketsu isn't even remotely notable outside of his monster form.

It is clear that WDM and Pig "god" (trump card) will end up being stronger. Metal Bat is most likely about to get new feats. That leaves PPP and TTM. The weakest S-class heroes.

"It's clear" and "likely" meaning you're just making stuff up. Pig God was already curbstomped by Gums, and Metal Bat was beaten up by two Demon levels both with and without Fighting Spirit.

Don't rely on something that hasn't even happened yet for current justification.

Lol, I just noticed it. I guess Bakuzan upgrade should be discarded. Or maybe Suiryu should scale higher. I am thinking about other methods.

"Matched with Garou evenly in OVA."

"Thought he can easily defeat Garou even though he saw him easily winning championship."

"Should be stronger than human Bakuzan"

But I guess none of this is enough evidence to scale Suiryu to low 7-B.

Btw I remember someone saying vaporization can be used to calculate Choze's feat since he has same type energy as Homeless Emperor. It might give different ending

Garou's actual prowess began to break the simulation, IIRC.

How can you vaporize water vapour?

Why? If you're saying that because of MHS speed, I am not using calculated end(mahc 112). I am just using low end. I don't think that counts as calc stacking

You can't just apply MHS randomly, despite the character being MHS. It doesn't work like that.

I don't know what's the high end of "several" so I used what's accepted for other character

I looked into it, and apparently several can also be 3 or more. Idk, most people just use 3-4.

 

[Tural2004]

That's not what the feat is? The Low 7-C feat is Suiryu yeeting the ball into the air, causing the clouds to split apart. It has nothing to do with vaporising

My bad.

His MHS is from scaling. Plus his speed varies. And that is calc stacking.

Since I used low end of MHS, I didn't think it counts as calc satcking

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Since I used low end of MHS, I didn't think it counts as calc satcking

That's still assuming tho. You can't assume such a rating without evidence. Black Sperm could be as slow as HH

 

[Qawsedf234]

Yeah I'm not for any of these multipers/changes.

 

[ByAsura]

On a related but slightly different topic, what do you think about human Gouketsu scaling above Suiryu?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Like it theoretically makes sense but I'd only seriously support it as a fan idea. To me there's not enough there for a actual rating.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

scan 1
scan 2

On a related but slightly different topic, what do you think about human Gouketsu scaling above Suiryu?

Suiryu views Gouketsu as impressive. I'd say his human self should be likely comparable: Likely Low 7-C (Suiryu viewed him as impressive)

 

[Tural2004]

If you're looking at speed, that's not how it works. For example, Saitama can run and still match Genos' casual speed.

I don't think you can use Saitama as an example. Also, both of them seem like running.

It very much does. All of those characters actually have narrative standing. Also, the council and BoS Genos aren't stronger than a ton of S-Class (Genos only surpasses PPP, by this point), and Saitama is literally the main character of the series.

The council's narrative standing is almost as small as Gouketsu. And my point was that you don't have to be one of known characters to be strong. 7 S-classes (WDM, Pig "god" and Metal Bat being unknown among them) aren't ton of S-class. Saitama is main character so what? The mentioning of Saitama was because of your argument about S-class not because of argument about narrative.

Proof? And they could easily be monsters.

Here. Monsters or not, what's the difference?

"It's clear" and "likely" meaning you're just making stuff up.

Yes ,I am making it but you can't be seriously believing WDM isn't at least 7B? Otherwise, Gouketsu would also beat Blast

How can you vaporize vapour?

I guess you can't. I saw something like that a few days ago so I felt like mentioning it.

That's still calc stacking. Calc stacking is applying one calculation to another. You can do this on some stuff like size, but you can't apply speed in one scene to a character in another.

I didn't know.

I looked into it, and apparently several can also be 3 or more. Idk, most people just use 3-4.

I have seen some people using it as 7.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Yes ,I am making it but you can't be seriously believing WDM isn't at least 7B?

Except why not? Why can't WDM be "At least Low 7-B"

Otherwise, Gouketsu would also beat Blast

???

 

[Kachon123]

Yeah I'm not for any of these multipers/changes.

We use it for other verses.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

We use it for other verses.

And those are other verses. The same rules may not apply for OPM?

 

[Tural2004]

Except why not? Why can't WDM be "At least Low 7-B"

I am not saying his rating should be changed. They build up WDM to some degree. He protects entire city by himself and is way superior to Garou. I can't see him staying low 7-B at the end

???

I mean just being featless doesn't mean someone isn't actually strong enough to be in another tier

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I am not saying his rating should be changed. They build up WDM to some degree. He protects entire city by himself and is way superior to Garou. I can't see him staying low 7-B.

That's just personal bias

I mean just being featless doesn't mean someone isn't actually strong enough to be in another tier

Blast has implications that he's much stronger than the S-Class as a whole and even Tatsumaki.

 

[Tural2004]

And those are other verses. The same rules may not apply for OPM?

Excluding Bakuzan(who ate multiple cells) none of new tiers directly coming from cells condradict with the story. And AS upgrade should be fine as well

 

[Kachon123]

And those are other verses. The same rules may not apply for OPM?

Unless you can show what is the issue with using it for OPM as well, then it should be able to be used.

 

[Tural2004]

That's just personal bias

I don't even care about WDM. Why should I be biased about him.

Blast has implications that he's much stronger than the S-Class as a whole and even Tatsumaki.

And those implacations come from Fubuki

 

[ByAsura]

I don't think you can use Saitama as an example. Also, both of them seem like running.

It's not just Saitama, it's also Genos, and that's just an example.

That's my point, they can run way below their full speed without just walking at hyper-speed.

The council's narrative standing is almost as small as Gouketsu. And my point was that you don't have to be one of known characters to be strong. 7 S-classes (WDM, Pig "god" and Metal Bat being unknown among them) aren't ton of S-class.

As I said, the Council members are a bunch of unknowns. But, they're still some of the world's greatest swordsmen and have actual feats. You absolutely can't say the same about human Gouketsu, who has one statement that his martial arts is better than Suiryu's and won against people at or below A-Class characters.

Yes that definitely is. Even if S-Class wasn't an insane metric in the series, there's only 17 of them.

Saitama is main character so what? The mentioning of Saitama was because of your argument about S-class not because of argument about narrative.

Because it's literally the point of the series that he's the strongest ever and his strength isn't recognised.

Here. Monsters or not, what's the difference?

Firstly, that's ultra-vague. It's nothing even close to proof (especially since I can't see the scan before that).

Secondly, monsters have different narrative standings than heroes.

Yes ,I am making it but you can't be seriously believing WDM isn't at least 7B?

Why should I have to believe it? There's no proof, and his best feats don't even come slightly close to 90 megatons.

At best, there's some implication he killed Dragon levels.

Otherwise, Gouketsu would also beat Blast

Based on your own logic. Plus, I'm not counting Blast.