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He probably just thought that "These attacks taking out a city" = City level by that logic.
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ONE's statement about who would win between Tatsumaki and Mob
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I feel there's a certain level of arrogance in assuming we know the author's characters more than the author himself.Ciruno Fortes said:
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1. If anything I still stand by the "anyone can see massive power gaps between characters" in the same sense in which I said it. It by not means aimed to mean that anyone can see power gaps between characters and determine reliable info about their stats; "Massive power gaps" that "anyone can see" are easier to see power gaps.
I got the wrong fallacy there, just because people can see power gaps and there are some cases where they don't, that doesn't mean there isn't a power gap there.
2. How many people do you think there are that can say something like "there is no answer" about the result of a fight and later give an answer of a definitive winner after thinking about it better? That is if they even think about it better. The thing ONE said was vague in the sense that it is being given far more importance that what it can be proven to have, it "at least mean(ing) comparable strength and speed" can actually be true in a more casual way that means nothing to us as a wiki, even if it takes relatively little for ???% Mob to have the same tier.
4.
I got the wrong fallacy there, just because people can see power gaps and there are some cases where they don't, that doesn't mean there isn't a power gap there.
2. How many people do you think there are that can say something like "there is no answer" about the result of a fight and later give an answer of a definitive winner after thinking about it better? That is if they even think about it better. The thing ONE said was vague in the sense that it is being given far more importance that what it can be proven to have, it "at least mean(ing) comparable strength and speed" can actually be true in a more casual way that means nothing to us as a wiki, even if it takes relatively little for ???% Mob to have the same tier.
4.
- ONE being the author gives him no right to deliver a remotely correct answer about who would win in a fight about 2 characters of 2 different verses he made. That would be dumb, for the lack of a better word. And again, him giving a correct answer before proves nothing as it was something easier.
- I don't really care about Mob's powers in relation with Tats, which is why I'm not saying he's thousands of times weaker, all I'm doing is pointing out the unreliability of where their comparison comes from.
- On the Garou thing, there is a lot things going on in the statement, the very first thing in it implies him not only not being sure of who the strongert one is but maybe also him thinking about it before, which makes sense as they come from the same verse. What's even more, Boros has a very hard-to-miss feat for normal people, no calcs needed to give ourselves a super vague idea about it.
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This entire thread is literally two to three people arguing semantics to try to downgrade Mob. Considering how Mob's casual feat is borderline High 7-A, I find it far more consistent that a character who uses less effort in walking than he would in annihilating all of OPM's high-tiers would be comparable to a top-tier than a guy with boulder smashing as his best feat would be equal to a High 6-A.
In other words, Mob being comparable to Tatsumaki makes a lot more sense than Garou being equal to Boros when one thinks about it, yet people who want to debunk the former are perfectly fine with the latter. A massive double standard if I've ever seen one.
In other words, Mob being comparable to Tatsumaki makes a lot more sense than Garou being equal to Boros when one thinks about it, yet people who want to debunk the former are perfectly fine with the latter. A massive double standard if I've ever seen one.
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If Mob was actually thousands of times weaker than something that Tatsumaki overpowered with no effort (which regardless of what you try to insist is the claim you are making in this thread), then that would be a very easy to see massive gap. And if Mob was thousands of times weaker than something Tatsumaki overpowered with no effort, then how is it uncertain that she'd overpower him? If what you're saying is the case, then why wouldn't ONE definitively say she beats him, just like he definitively said she beats Normal Mob and Golden Sperm.
Also your distinction is so arbitrary. Why can we accept what the author says about their own characters when they're in the same story but not when they are in 2 different stories that the author still wrote themself?
What magical force suddenly makes an author's words completely unreliable once he's dealing with 2 characters from 2 stories he wrote when he knew what he was talking about when dealing with 2 characters from 1 story he wrote? "Oh this guy had a perfect grasp on how powerful his own character was and was properly able to compare the power of another character he wrote before. But now this other character of his he's comparing them to was in a different story, so now he lost the ability to properly compare the power of his own characters. If only this character happened to be in the same story, then he'd suddenly be able to properly know how they compare to each other."
The whole "well the author might not know about the feats each character has done when comparing them" can easily be said if he's talking about characters in his own series as well. If we can accept one instance of WoG comparing 2 characters together with nothing contradicting it, there's no reason we can't accept this one.
"And again, him giving a correct answer before proves nothing as it was something easier."
That's the whole point. Tatsumaki was able to effortlessly overpower Boros's shells. There was absolutely zero doubt in ONE's mind she could do that. Yet with Mob it's actually difficult for him to answer whether or not she can overpower him. That obviously means that overpowering him would be a greater challenge to her than overpowering those shells. Or if you want to be ultra conservative, Mob is somehow just a 1/3 as strong. But thousands of times weaker? That's ridiculous. And again, if it was "easy" for ONE to say Normal Mob and Golden Sperm lose to Tatsu, why was he uncertain about Serious Mob?
Also your distinction is so arbitrary. Why can we accept what the author says about their own characters when they're in the same story but not when they are in 2 different stories that the author still wrote themself?
What magical force suddenly makes an author's words completely unreliable once he's dealing with 2 characters from 2 stories he wrote when he knew what he was talking about when dealing with 2 characters from 1 story he wrote? "Oh this guy had a perfect grasp on how powerful his own character was and was properly able to compare the power of another character he wrote before. But now this other character of his he's comparing them to was in a different story, so now he lost the ability to properly compare the power of his own characters. If only this character happened to be in the same story, then he'd suddenly be able to properly know how they compare to each other."
The whole "well the author might not know about the feats each character has done when comparing them" can easily be said if he's talking about characters in his own series as well. If we can accept one instance of WoG comparing 2 characters together with nothing contradicting it, there's no reason we can't accept this one.
"And again, him giving a correct answer before proves nothing as it was something easier."
That's the whole point. Tatsumaki was able to effortlessly overpower Boros's shells. There was absolutely zero doubt in ONE's mind she could do that. Yet with Mob it's actually difficult for him to answer whether or not she can overpower him. That obviously means that overpowering him would be a greater challenge to her than overpowering those shells. Or if you want to be ultra conservative, Mob is somehow just a 1/3 as strong. But thousands of times weaker? That's ridiculous. And again, if it was "easy" for ONE to say Normal Mob and Golden Sperm lose to Tatsu, why was he uncertain about Serious Mob?
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I'm very sorry if I had said something that offended you. I don't have any hard feelings over a disagreement. Maybe my text is giving off a different tone than I intend or it might be because I'm a bit on edge due to some IRL issues I had to deal with today. But either way I don't want to be rude to you either so again I apologize.Newendigo said:
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"Oh this guy had a perfect grasp on how powerful his own character was and was properly able to compare the power of another character he wrote before"
I think it's less about the author having a perfect grasp on how powerful his characters are, and more about piecing together different pieces of canon information, "X is as strong as Y", "Y has feats the author may not necessarily be remembering or know the exact yield of", but even if the author doesn't have a perfect grasp on their strengths, you can give X a tier based on how we know he will interact with other characters in his own universe
And just to be clear, this is specifically to address your point that we assume authors to perfectly understand their character's own strength when dealing with a single verse, but not when dealing with two verses, since that's frankly a big misrepresentantion on how we handle things
I think it's less about the author having a perfect grasp on how powerful his characters are, and more about piecing together different pieces of canon information, "X is as strong as Y", "Y has feats the author may not necessarily be remembering or know the exact yield of", but even if the author doesn't have a perfect grasp on their strengths, you can give X a tier based on how we know he will interact with other characters in his own universe
And just to be clear, this is specifically to address your point that we assume authors to perfectly understand their character's own strength when dealing with a single verse, but not when dealing with two verses, since that's frankly a big misrepresentantion on how we handle things
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Okay then by your logic even if ONE doesn't have a perfect grasp on their strengths, you can give Mob a tier based on how we know he would interact with other characters ONE himself wrote. It being 2 different universes doesn't suddenly make the statement invalid when both universes were written and created by the exact same person. They are both his own stories that he has WoG and legal ownership of. This isn't is something like Suggs saying his characters beat characters he has no rights to. This is ONE comparing two of his own characters that he himself wrote.
Also another way to put it.
1. Boros and Garou never have and never will encounter each other. They are never compared to one another in canon. One has drastically higher feats than the other. However their author has stated that they are on par with each other. Nothing contradicts this author statement, so we can use it.
2. Tatsumaki and Mob never have and never will encounter each other. They are never compared to one another in canon. One has drastically higher feats than the other. However their author has stated that they are on par with each other. Nothing contradicts this author statement, so we can use it.
There is no reason why Tatsumaki and Mob being from different stories that the author still wrote suddenly changes this principle. It's a completely arbitrary distinction. ONE's reliability didn't magically get made worse once his characters were in different stories he wrote. If you have no reason to deny the Boros vs Garou statement, you have no reason to deny the Tatsumaki vs Mob statement.
Also another way to put it.
1. Boros and Garou never have and never will encounter each other. They are never compared to one another in canon. One has drastically higher feats than the other. However their author has stated that they are on par with each other. Nothing contradicts this author statement, so we can use it.
2. Tatsumaki and Mob never have and never will encounter each other. They are never compared to one another in canon. One has drastically higher feats than the other. However their author has stated that they are on par with each other. Nothing contradicts this author statement, so we can use it.
There is no reason why Tatsumaki and Mob being from different stories that the author still wrote suddenly changes this principle. It's a completely arbitrary distinction. ONE's reliability didn't magically get made worse once his characters were in different stories he wrote. If you have no reason to deny the Boros vs Garou statement, you have no reason to deny the Tatsumaki vs Mob statement.
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@Tets
Bad wording on my part 2B. But yeah basically, it's not that our calcs are absolute. Heck I believe calcs and power levels are ever changing, but I'm sure that most of the time the creators of a franchise don't go in too deep on how strong a character can be occasionally while thinking about maximizing the amount of power shown in a scene.
Of course the power or scene they're showing off and their intention is important too. Intent matters cause... There was one time an author or mangaka said their character easily solos another franchise character, but clearly we don't use that for WoG.
I'm using bad examples but yeah, it's a case by case thing in the end. Not saying we're smarter than the verse creators
Bad wording on my part 2B. But yeah basically, it's not that our calcs are absolute. Heck I believe calcs and power levels are ever changing, but I'm sure that most of the time the creators of a franchise don't go in too deep on how strong a character can be occasionally while thinking about maximizing the amount of power shown in a scene.
Of course the power or scene they're showing off and their intention is important too. Intent matters cause... There was one time an author or mangaka said their character easily solos another franchise character, but clearly we don't use that for WoG.
I'm using bad examples but yeah, it's a case by case thing in the end. Not saying we're smarter than the verse creators
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@Ryu Being two different stories is in no way an arbitrary distinction, when talking about different elements of a story interacting with each other, we view the story as if it was its own universe with its own people, history and facts, where different elements have some sort of relationship with each other, and basic logic dictates that you cannot extend this idea to comparing two different fictional universes that aren't connected to each other, even if written by the same author.
Mob and Tatsumaki don't even exist in respect to each other, you cannot expect questions of how they may have interacted with each other to have the same significance as two characters who actually shared a universe, how little sense would "X and Y are canonically comparable to each other" make if X and Y aren't even canon to each other?
Mob and Tatsumaki don't even exist in respect to each other, you cannot expect questions of how they may have interacted with each other to have the same significance as two characters who actually shared a universe, how little sense would "X and Y are canonically comparable to each other" make if X and Y aren't even canon to each other?
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ONE was asked what would happen if two characters that he himself wrote and created were to hypothetically fight each other, and he answered. Just cause these two characters aren't ever going to encounter each other in canon does not mean ONE's statement about this isn't official. Just like the fact that Boros and Garou aren't ever going to encounter in canon doesn't change that fact.
"you cannot extend this idea to comparing two different fictional universes that aren't connected to each other" That's what this entire site does. It compares characters from different series to each other. We even put on profiles characters who'd beat other characters if they fought in the same universe. Yet ONE can't do this even when they are characters he himself wrote?
"you cannot expect questions of how they may have interacted with each other to have the same significance as two characters who actually shared a universe"
Yes you can. Both of them are the author telling you what'd happen in a hypothetical situation where 2 of his own character were interact with each other. If Boros and Garou hypothetically fought in the same place, it's a draw. If Mob and Tatsumaki hypothetically fought in the same place, it's a draw. Like what difference does it make if Mob and Tatsumaki are in different universes when they're still universes written by the same person? That doesn't somehow change the nature of this hypothetical, or suddenly invalidate the author's own word.
What really makes little sense is "ONE only knows how his own characters compare to each other if those characters are in the same universe he wrote and magically no longer does once the characters are in 2 different universes he wrote"
Like this is ridiculous. ONE has WoG over both of these stories cause they are both his own stories that he himself wrote. The idea that he no longer has a say in his own works once he compares them to each other is silly.
"you cannot extend this idea to comparing two different fictional universes that aren't connected to each other" That's what this entire site does. It compares characters from different series to each other. We even put on profiles characters who'd beat other characters if they fought in the same universe. Yet ONE can't do this even when they are characters he himself wrote?
"you cannot expect questions of how they may have interacted with each other to have the same significance as two characters who actually shared a universe"
Yes you can. Both of them are the author telling you what'd happen in a hypothetical situation where 2 of his own character were interact with each other. If Boros and Garou hypothetically fought in the same place, it's a draw. If Mob and Tatsumaki hypothetically fought in the same place, it's a draw. Like what difference does it make if Mob and Tatsumaki are in different universes when they're still universes written by the same person? That doesn't somehow change the nature of this hypothetical, or suddenly invalidate the author's own word.
What really makes little sense is "ONE only knows how his own characters compare to each other if those characters are in the same universe he wrote and magically no longer does once the characters are in 2 different universes he wrote"
Like this is ridiculous. ONE has WoG over both of these stories cause they are both his own stories that he himself wrote. The idea that he no longer has a say in his own works once he compares them to each other is silly.
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Maybe he wasn't sure, by "maybe" I do mean it to be a valid interpretación of what he said, and by "wasn't sure" I mean them not having qualifiable comparable power, with one of them being that above he other.Ryukama said:
I'm guessing you don't mean when that same story is going on as that what we do in the wiki, powerful characters within the same verse are more rasonable to harm and keep up with each other. That gives them their stats here, consistency and context within a greater plan that is their setting, which can take quite prolonged amounts of time to craft. Something, let's say, "beautiful" about the other statements ONE made is that you could tell that he thought them before (that or he's pretty good at making sh*t up, which doesn't seem to be the case). Not knowing who wins between Mob and Tats just doesn't feel real at all, as arbitrary as it may be.Ryukama said:
If anything, the author's words should automatically mean very little and be unreliable for what we do. The author saying stuff isn't even stuff that happened in the verse so to apply that is already kinda dogmatic, in the best sense of the word.Ryukama said:
In any case the same can be said about even more and more unrelatable claims, so this is arbitrary, also in the best sense of the word. There is no set point in which we should all agree or disagree with an author saying something, I'm just doing the latter by myself here.
A regular person would have no idea if her feat is higher or lower than ???% Mob's, even when having both of them in mind, and in front of its face. Sorry if this part is repetitive at this point.Ryukama said:
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1. ONE was uncertain because Serious Mob's power is at the point where he doesn't know if she can overpower him. That should at bare minimum put him above something that Tatsu overpowered with zero effort, as ONE had no doubt she could've done that.
2. This "well this statment is beautiful and feels real" stuff is all all super subjective and arbitrary. Both statements are ONE comparing 2 of his own characters who never interact with each other and have drastically different feats. Nothing makes one more valid than the other.
3. Okay if the author's word should automatically mean very little and be deemed unreliable, as to take such a statement would be dogmatic, then why do you accept the Boros vs Garou statement?
4. ONE isn't a some regular person on the street. He is literally the author of these characters. If he doesn't know which would win, he clearly didn't have the idea of them being drastically apart in power. If he did, then he'd certainly know she'd beat him just like he certainly knows she beats other people.
2. This "well this statment is beautiful and feels real" stuff is all all super subjective and arbitrary. Both statements are ONE comparing 2 of his own characters who never interact with each other and have drastically different feats. Nothing makes one more valid than the other.
3. Okay if the author's word should automatically mean very little and be deemed unreliable, as to take such a statement would be dogmatic, then why do you accept the Boros vs Garou statement?
4. ONE isn't a some regular person on the street. He is literally the author of these characters. If he doesn't know which would win, he clearly didn't have the idea of them being drastically apart in power. If he did, then he'd certainly know she'd beat him just like he certainly knows she beats other people.
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I agree with Ryukama.
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His points are valid.
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I'm on the fence here...
It's all about how you interpret the WOG statement. Simply because of the fact that Mob doesn't have to be anywhere near comparable to Tats,as far as power goes, to give him a shot at beating her.
And to add onto this
It's not even a definitive "It's a toss up" statement. It's merely the author saying he doesn't know, which can mean a whole host of things which have nothing to do with Mob being on par with her power or speed-wise.
It's all about how you interpret the WOG statement. Simply because of the fact that Mob doesn't have to be anywhere near comparable to Tats,as far as power goes, to give him a shot at beating her.
And to add onto this
It's not even a definitive "It's a toss up" statement. It's merely the author saying he doesn't know, which can mean a whole host of things which have nothing to do with Mob being on par with her power or speed-wise.
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In what way would Mob beat Tatsumaki if he isn't somewhat comparable? He has virtually no hax that he can use to overcome the sheer power difference between them and I highly doubt that ONE was referring to a speed-blitz since his speed feat no where near blatant enough for him to have been aware of it.YungManzi said:
I may be reiterating Ryu's point but if ONE could easily determine that Normal Mob and Golden Sperm lose to Tatsumaki and was completely unsure whether or not she could beat Serious Mob, then it's likely that a fight between would actually require effort on her part which is far more than can be said about the casual High 6-C feat that she performed with no problem.
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Think of it like this.
Let's say Jim overpowers Bob with absolutely no effort whatsoever. Does it super casually without breaking a sweat. As such there is zero doubt that he can overpower Bob. However when it comes to whether or not Jim is capable of overpowering Max, there is so much doubt that even person who gave Jim and Max their powers is uncertain of the outcome. And it's not like this guy just doesn't know Max's power well, as he just proclaimed that Max's previous state of power would undoubtedly get overpowered by Jim. Yet this version of Max's power made it uncertain.
This obviously means at the very least that Jim overpowering Max is deemed as more of a challenge than him overpowering Bob. Heck let's just be super lowballing and assume that Bob is somehow 3 times more powerful than Max. But saying that Jim is thousands and thousands of times stronger than Bob is just too much.
Let's say Jim overpowers Bob with absolutely no effort whatsoever. Does it super casually without breaking a sweat. As such there is zero doubt that he can overpower Bob. However when it comes to whether or not Jim is capable of overpowering Max, there is so much doubt that even person who gave Jim and Max their powers is uncertain of the outcome. And it's not like this guy just doesn't know Max's power well, as he just proclaimed that Max's previous state of power would undoubtedly get overpowered by Jim. Yet this version of Max's power made it uncertain.
This obviously means at the very least that Jim overpowering Max is deemed as more of a challenge than him overpowering Bob. Heck let's just be super lowballing and assume that Bob is somehow 3 times more powerful than Max. But saying that Jim is thousands and thousands of times stronger than Bob is just too much.
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So have we come to a conclusion now, Ryukama has proven his points and the majority agrees with him.
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Or anyone still wants to counter
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But anyways I've spent all day talking about this, it's late at night and I've already talked about this in length in another thread. So I'm just gonna unfollow the thread. Anyone else can get the last word and I'll let the rest of the people decide. I'm just gonna quickly summarize my stance before I go.
1. For ONE to say it's uncertain who would win means they are at least somewhat comparable in power. If Serious Mob was far weaker than the Tatsu, he'd definitively lose. Just like Regular Mob and Golden Sperm definitively lose.
2. Tatsu overpowered Boros's shells without any effort. There was zero doubt in ONE's mind that she could do this. Yet there is doubt about whether or not she can overpower Serious Mob. Which obviously means that overpowering Serious Mob would be a greater challenge than overpowering those shells. Or at the very least Mob should be 1/3 as strong as the shells. But not thousands of times weaker. Cause again, why would there be doubt that she could overpower him if that's the case?
3. This statement is identical to the Boros vs Garou one, which everyone just accepts. And since Mob and Tatsu are both ONE's own characters, it's irrelevant if they come from different universes that he wrote as opposed to the same universe he wrote. This distinction does not actually change the nature of the statement or suddenly take away ONE's credibility. Both are ONE saying what'd happen in a hypothetical situation where 2 of his own characters were to actually fight.
1. For ONE to say it's uncertain who would win means they are at least somewhat comparable in power. If Serious Mob was far weaker than the Tatsu, he'd definitively lose. Just like Regular Mob and Golden Sperm definitively lose.
2. Tatsu overpowered Boros's shells without any effort. There was zero doubt in ONE's mind that she could do this. Yet there is doubt about whether or not she can overpower Serious Mob. Which obviously means that overpowering Serious Mob would be a greater challenge than overpowering those shells. Or at the very least Mob should be 1/3 as strong as the shells. But not thousands of times weaker. Cause again, why would there be doubt that she could overpower him if that's the case?
3. This statement is identical to the Boros vs Garou one, which everyone just accepts. And since Mob and Tatsu are both ONE's own characters, it's irrelevant if they come from different universes that he wrote as opposed to the same universe he wrote. This distinction does not actually change the nature of the statement or suddenly take away ONE's credibility. Both are ONE saying what'd happen in a hypothetical situation where 2 of his own characters were to actually fight.
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And I'm to assume that he could do this before being killed due to the massive AP difference between them if we went with them being scaled to their best feat? By that logic, even Base Mob can fight evenly with Tatsumaki which is pretty ridiculous. It makes far more sense that ONE was referring to an all out brawl than him referring to a very unlikely scenario where Mob would bypass her defenses.
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I think that we have concluded here, The point have been proved. Someone should close the thread.
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Her weakness as an Esper is not being able to use her powers as well with brain damage, that's kinda moot without the AP to do that.
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She also cannot attack and defend at the same time, Mob can.
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True but that's still can't happen without the AP to do so
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That's probably one of the cons of Tatsumaki, but who knows in the future maybe she's able to utilize it and than she can do both at the same time.
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Anyway, that's just an assumption.
