One Piece - Water 7 Arc Luffy & Usopp Revision

[Damage3245]

I see no reason why not

Our standards say it's allowed. All because you guys want to make an exception doesn't mean we just completely ignore it.

Luffy yanking the ball with his own force means that he directly scales to it from what we allow. Yall implementing this means you need a site wide revision to flat out remove that standard

You're saying "You need to change the standards so that this is no longer treated like a Striking Strength feat", right?

I don't think we ever said that though. There are no standards that this revision is in conflict with.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I see no reason why not

Our standards say it's allowed. All because you guys want to make an exception doesn't mean we just completely ignore it.

Luffy yanking the ball with his own force means that he directly scales to it from what we allow. Yall implementing this means you need a site wide revision to flat out remove that standard

Actually I believe you are misinterpreting the standards, to quote:

However, lifting should generally not be used to calculate Attack Potency unless it is a fast, explosive form of lift (for example: snatch, clean-and-jerk, etc.). This is based on the biomechanics behind how human type characters attack. Unlike a punch, a kick, or most other types of attacks, a lift is a slow sustained motion which allows for many more muscles fibers to be recruited into the movement more easily, generating much more energy than a fast movement used in combat. Lifting movements also allow the body's tendons to help out by storing the energy, then releasing it in a sudden burst, acting like a spring.

You’re abusing the early line that states lifting feats can be used for striking strength if they’re like cleans, snatches, etc. However, you neglect the bolded line which indicates Luffy’s feat is not like that. Luffy doesn’t immediately grasp the weight and yank it like a snatch. Luffy grabs the weight and allows his body to store the energy like a spring (this is literally applicable as Luffy is elastic), and then later releases it in a sudden burst. Meaning the feat is not under grounds of “it’s like a snatch so it’s striking strength applicable to normal punches”.

 

[Deceived3596]

Damn.

Yeah...... i'm switching my vote to disagree from neutral, in regards to scaling Luffy's Golden Bull enhanced punches to his base punches, especially now given this newly found evidence by Arc.

Still neutral regarding the Usopp shit since i'm not knowledgeable enough to have an actual opinion on it.

 

[Damage3245]

Yeah...... i'm switching my vote to disagree from neutral, in regards to scaling Luffy's Golden Bull enhanced punches to his base punches, especially now given this evidence.

Thanks.

 

[TioKill]

I again plead for the disagreement side to just concede on Luffy scaling to the feat himself, and rather argue for the Shigan Scaling.

 

[Xulrev]

The plane is not holding it bro. It's holding you, and YOU'RE holding the lead and rope.

So if you lift a human being holding a 10kg mass, and that human being is 100kg, are you going to sit there and tell me that you yourself are not lifting 110kg of mass? That somehow, the 10kg simply evaporates from the system by basis of gravity no longer working because that mass is being held by someone else, and it exhibits no downward force whatsoever due to gravity, and thus you exert no upward force on it? This is fairly straightforward and directly relevant since the bike Nami uses to catch Luffy and race him vertical is contributing force to the Golden Ball that he ultimately utilizes to hit Enel.

 

[Xulrev]

However, lifting should generally not be used to calculate Attack Potency unless it is a fast, explosive form of lift (for example: snatch, clean-and-jerk, etc.). This is based on the biomechanics behind how human type characters attack. Unlike a punch, a kick, or most other types of attacks, a lift is a slow sustained motion which allows for many more muscles fibers to be recruited into the movement more easily, generating much more energy than a fast movement used in combat. Lifting movements also allow the body's tendons to help out by storing the energy, then releasing it in a sudden burst, acting like a spring.

Yeah this is insanely clear that the feat in question exhibits explicit spring properties, considering that is Luffy's entire powerset. KT seems to have simply made a slight error in their recollection of the site rule on this sort of feat, so it's not a huge deal, but that entire discussion point is null and void just by reading the standard in question, good job here. Absolute 100% proof of Damage's OP being the correct approach by site standards

 

[Deceived3596]

100% agree with TioKill, we've been debating this exact topic for over at least a page now and it's going nowhere, the disagreeing side of this debate hasn't provided valid contention against the pro side, they've only been repeating the same debunked arguments over and over again, hell they haven't even provided actual evidence for their claim yet. It's wasting all of our time and needlessly extending the length of this thread.

 

[TioKill]

I'll give my input because I believe it's important given the current points made.



Assuming the calculation remains correct, debating either or not Luffy is single-handedly responsible for the Kinetic Energy when it comes to science is a waste of time to both parties. That's because we have a much, much stronger argument for the scaling to work for their Water 7 keys, through the Shigan scaling suggested by Damage, and probably by others in the past. Not only does it not leave any room for doubt, but it also completely ends 90% of the debates going on here, it's simply solid.





Given that, the point @Damage3245 makes about Shigan scaling only to Kaku and Lucci due to their pictures being used to represent the technique is bogus. The argument Damage makes is nothing else but a no-sequence fallacy, also known as a non-sequitur. The claim that the image is trying to convey which characters the statement applies is completely absurd - no, the image of Shigan on the guide is doing nothing but showcasing the technique visually. Entire purpose of the image ends there, done. One cannot claim the image is trying to convey anything else, especially when the text claiming the strength of the technique is generalized.
Furthermore, even if you want to make the rather silly affirmation that the "hurt Luffy and Zoro" segment on the guide is indication that it only scales to Kaku and Lucci - the ones responsible for inflicting said damage on them - it still wouldn't work. Because the guide simply states the Shigan is powerful enough to do this, it's not limiting to the instances where it actually happened - if anything, the information of the guide simply states if any of the other known users where to use Shigan on them, it would also work. I'd like to strengthen my claim that the Shigan statement is applied in general by stating that the claim made by the guide also implies Luffy's and Zoro's durability scale above the Golden Rifle as well.
As we all know, Luffy can harm himself, and Kalifa can harm the likes of Luffy and Usopp as well.

I once again remind everyone that this is my point, and my reason as to why shigan should just scale to any shigan user in general.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

So if you lift a human being holding a 10kg mass, and that human being is 100kg, are you going to sit there and tell me that you yourself are not lifting 110kg of mass? That somehow, the 10kg simply evaporates from the system by basis of gravity no longer working because that mass is being held by someone else, and it exhibits no downward force whatsoever due to gravity, and thus you exert no upward force on it? This is fairly straightforward and directly relevant since the bike Nami uses to catch Luffy and race him vertical is contributing force to the Golden Ball that he ultimately utilizes to hit Enel.

Luffy is holding the ball far behind him and the ship- The ship is just holding Luffy while he does it.
The ball would never be held by the ship or drag it down because it's not even on the ship- it's behind held far away from it.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I guess if KT and co are cool with moving on to Shigan scaling that'd be smart.

 

[Damage3245]

I guess if KT and co are cool with moving on to Shigan scaling that'd be smart.

KT hasn't responded to the counter-post yet; we should wait to hear from him if he wants to concede on it or not. I don't mind this taking more time.

 

[Xulrev]

Luffy is holding the ball far behind him and the ship- The ship is just holding Luffy while he does it.
The ball would never be held by the ship or drag it down because it's not even on the ship- it's behind held far away from it.

I highlighted the part where you just outright agree with my point.

 

[KingTempest]

After talking offsite, the calculation measures the KE of the bell, not Luffy's KE in moving the ball, so I concede on the argument of the site's standards since it's not calculating that

With that being said, I agree with TK's argument on the shigan scaling

 

[DaMonkeMan]

I highlighted the part where you just outright agree with my point.

You said the ship was holding Luffy AND the Bell, and I said it just held Luffy while he had the ball far away on his hand.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I have a Shigan statement question, since it's weirdly made by Nami that's breaking the 4th wall, but which Shigan is Nami aware of? I know obviously she's aware of the Shigan used on Luffy and Zolo cuz she mentions that. But does someone got scans of every other Shigan Nami has seen or heard of?

 

[Damage3245]

Thanks for responding KT.

Since we're moving in the direction of discussiong how this should be applied / what should replace the current scaling now, I'll comment on the Shigan topic tomorrow with my thoughts.

 

[KingTempest]

I have a Shigan statement question, since it's weirdly made by Nami that's breaking the 4th wall, but which Shigan is Nami aware of? I know obviously she's aware of the Shigan used on Luffy and Zolo cuz she mentions that. But does someone got scans of every other Shigan Nami has seen or heard of?

It counts as an author statement, because more than half of the techniques on that list she didn't even see or she wasn't even there for, so the knowledge would technically be from Oda, he's just using Nami as the medium

 

[CloverDragon03]

Count me as agreeing with not scaling that KE to Luffy himself btw

 

[Deceived3596]

It counts as an author statement, because more than half of the techniques on that list she didn't even see or she wasn't even there for, so the knowledge would technically be from Oda, he's just using Nami as the medium

ECREE GG.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

ECREE GG.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[ImmortalDread]

Count me as agreeing with not scaling that KE to Luffy himself as well

 

[CloverDragon03]

Also should've mentioned this before, TioKill's argument about Shigan scaling makes sense to me

 

[Eseseso]

I'm honestly neutral on Shigan scaling.

 

[Damage3245]

Also should've mentioned this before, TioKill's argument about Shigan scaling makes sense to me

I've got four counter-points I'll be addressing it with tomorrow.

 

[TioKill]

I've got four counter-points I'll be addressing it with tomorrow.

We will make sure to ask for everyone's input once our debate is settled - or boiled down to pleonasm

 

[Deceived3596]

After reading through both TioKill's and Damage's arguments I've come up with my own conclusion. And i'll explain my conclusions in-depth in this post here.

I'm in general agreement that the statement in question references all shigans rather than just Kaku's and Lucci's shigan as the sentence structure itself heavily implies such. With Nami specifically saying "but the most powerful one so far is ranked 25th - The Finger Pistol. The finger pistol has beaten both Luffy and Zolo".

What's being conveyed here is that the finger pistol (or shigan) is the strongest technique on the list currently, then Nami uses an example to explain the shigan's power, with it being capable of defeating Luffy and Zoro. She isn't making contextual implications about the specific users behind the shigan which defeated Luffy and Zoro, but rather she's using Luffy and Zoro as references to better visualize the power of shigan to the reader. so her bringing up Luffy and Zoro isn't an inherent defeater towards the statement being applicable to shigan users in general. It's actually more assumptive to assume she's only talking about Lucci and Kaku when the sentence structure doesn't support that interpretation.

Another point i wish to talk about is Nami's reliability, as i know this will probably be a contentious topic so i'll address it in this post rather than later on.

Nami's reliability within this context doesn't actually matter all that much, what i mean by this her personal knowledge isn't an inherent limiter here since she's being used as a mouthpiece by Oda during this instance. Which is implied by the fact she directly addresses the fans, similar to how Oda would. Meaning she would likely have innate knowledge about all stated techniques on the list, regardless if she saw them or not in story since she's basically acting as Oda in this scan.

You'd require a higher preponderance of evidence to assume she wouldn't have innate knowledge over these techniques compared to the latter given the stated above.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

You'd require a higher preponderance of evidence to assume she wouldn't have innate knowledge over these techniques compared to the latter given the stated above.

You might say, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence

 

[Deceived3596]

You might say, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence

Carl Sagan is the greatest thinker of the modern era.

 

[TioKill]

Another point i wish to talk about is Nami's reliability, as i know this will probably be a contentious topic so i'll address it in this post rather than later on.

I'd like to add how that'd be doubtful as a point of contention if the OP were to consider it. Because by considering the Shigan as the strongest technique via the statement, you are then consenting to Nami having this level of knowledge and authority.
The OP already does so by accepting the iteration of the Shigan scaling on a lesser scale - thus already considering this 4th Wall Nami as a reliable - and omniscient - source. It would be somewhat hypocritical to suddenly change gears once the scaling doesn't go smooth sailing like you thought it would.

Darn, 4th Wall Nami even goes as far as referencing techniques that haven't even appeared in the Manga yet - meaning yes, she's not the character taken out of a chapter, she is an omniscient narrator.

 

[Eseseso]

Wait, if all Shigans > Golden Rifle, will CP9 scaling remain the same?

 

[TioKill]

Wait, if all Shigans > Golden Rifle, will CP9 scaling remain the same?

Let's convince Damage first, then we talk about this

 

[Xulrev]

Just reading the scan of Nami claiming that, I sort of think context is key on the Shigan claim: Reject Dials aren't listed as the strongest technique available, when we know for a fact they absorb a hit and redirect ten times the force that was absorbed: are we going to sit here and claim Shigan scales to being 10x stronger than itself due to this?

It seems evident from that alone that the claim is being made of versatility as well as raw power, considering Golden Rifle required a huge wind-up, Reject Dials require set-up, etc. whereas Shigan is a simple straightforward technique that was in fact able to heavily wound both Luffy and Zoro, with the rationale Nami gives being "it beat both Luffy and Zoro thus it's the strongest!"

There are issues with how the Shigan statement is being used for power scaling, to wit

 

[KingTempest]

Reject Dials aren't listed as the strongest technique available, when we know for a fact they absorb a hit and redirect ten times the force that was absorbed: are we going to sit here and claim Shigan scales to being 10x stronger than itself due to this?

Yes, because Reject Dials aren't technique, they're items. Even Deep Blue has them in the item section while it has Shigan in the technique section

 

[Xulrev]

Yes, because Reject Dials aren't technique, they're items. Even Deep Blue has them in the item section while it has Shigan in the technique section

But they're listed in the poll, the one Nami explicitly is referencing. It's in the technique section, rank 27th. Shigan was ranked 25th in that very poll, and Nami explicitly says the 25th fan-ranked one was actually the strongest.

 

[Deceived3596]

When Nami says Shigan is the "most powerful technique" on the list she's most likely talking about the general AP of the ability in relation to all the other stated techniques, she's most likely not referencing the esoteric abilities which are tied towards these techniques as if she wasn't the sentence wouldn't make any-sense structurally. It's better to assume the least assumptive claim, and that claim is the one which says Nami's only talking about the AP of these techniques, not their abilities/haxes.

Which makes sense since she specifically says "most powerful technique", with powerful commonly implying physical force exertion, and with Shigan being a physical force-based attack it adds more credence to that interpretation.

 

[Damage3245]

@Deceived3596 There are a few issues with relying on the statement in general;

1) It is a dubiously canon statement in the first place as it is given by a character breaking the 4th wall in a poll... This isn't a manga statement, a databook statement, an anime statement or even an interview with the author. For something that would be the root of scaling for dozens of characters, the very origin of it makes it unreliable.

2) It is a character-given statement. As you said, we should be making the least assumptions here and it is an assumption to think that Nami's statement here should be taken with omnscient narrator infallibility. Nami witnessed the technique only three times; being used by Lucci to defeat Paulie and Luffy, and being used by Kaku to defeat Zoro. Now, let's be realistic, Nami is not measuring the energy of character's attacks and comparing them in a VSBW framework. If she's saying "Shigan is the most powerful", we have to ask how she's making that judgement and the rest of the statement provides the context; it defeated Luffy and Zoro, two of the strongest people Nami knows personally and she witnessed this happening. That is the simplest explanation with the least amount of assumptions in my view.

3) It is arbitrary to apply the statement to a situational technique like the Golden Rifle which doesn't represent Luffy's true strength anyway. If you were to be generous with the statement you could even interpret it as Nami saying that CP9's Shigan is even more powerful than Enel's Deathpiea and therefore the CP9 members should be Island level. Even if we accepted the statement as being canon and reliable, it is even more assumptive to think that Nami is only comparing Shigan and the Golden Rifle in terms of the amount of joules of energy they have, and ignoring other techniques like Enel's island-busting.

It is far simpler just not to rely on the statement which came from a magazine poll...

 

[Deceived3596]

I'll address the above later today since there's a lot wrong with those three refutations you gave me imo.

 

[Damage3245]

I'll address the above later today since there's a lot wrong with those three refutations you gave me imo.

Understandable.

In response to TioKill up above about the OP already accepting Nami's omniscientess; the suggested scaling in the OP was a compromise and written by Arc7Kuroi. I'm not personally on board with just accepting the statement on face value when there is a big degreee of interpretation here.

Breaking the 4th wall does not make a character omniscient.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

1) It is a dubiously canon statement in the first place as it is given by a character breaking the 4th wall in a poll... This isn't a manga statement, a databook statement, an anime statement or even an interview with the author. For something that would be the root of scaling for dozens of characters, the very origin of it makes it unreliable.

It's located in the manga tho, vol 40