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One Piece Post-Timeskip Scaling and Calcs #4
- Thread starter Damage3245
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Jinbe keept with Ace for 5 days and Katakuri or Cracker is far superior to Jinbe. Smoothie gets scalling too. Also, Doflamingo stops Jozu with his strings, and Gear Fourth Luffy is far superior to him. Sabo should gets a unknown AP, he can fight againts Fujitora and Ryokogyu (Two Admirals), and is Dragon's right hand.Damage3245 said:
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Oh yeah, for Skypeia Luffy, he did something of this nature, would this also be mention in that key; https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Stefano4444/Luffy_Disperse_Raigo
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- #404
Okay, possibly issues being:
1) Jinbe and Cracker have no scaling chain between them, and nothing to compare each other to.
2) Doflamingo's strings are what is responsible for holding Jozu in place, not his AP. It doesn't take as much AP to hold someones movements as it does to harm them.
3) Why couldn't we just scale Sabo to Fujitora?
1) Jinbe and Cracker have no scaling chain between them, and nothing to compare each other to.
2) Doflamingo's strings are what is responsible for holding Jozu in place, not his AP. It doesn't take as much AP to hold someones movements as it does to harm them.
3) Why couldn't we just scale Sabo to Fujitora?
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1) Cracker is a commander and Big Mom assumed that Jinbe had the equivalent of one, taking into account that Jinbe failed to defeat Katakuri, he must be compared to Cracker at least. In addition, Katakuri says at one point in his fight with Luffy that even after the activation of Gear Fourth he did not understand how his brother Cracker had been defeated by him.
2) Doflamingo itself scales for his strings, for example, his black knight (String Clone) is much weaker than him (Doffy).
3) Because Sabo himself assumed that Fujitora was not seriously fighting him. In addition, the Fujitora does not seem to fear the priory Akainu, who is one of the most powerful characters in the verse.
2) Doflamingo itself scales for his strings, for example, his black knight (String Clone) is much weaker than him (Doffy).
3) Because Sabo himself assumed that Fujitora was not seriously fighting him. In addition, the Fujitora does not seem to fear the priory Akainu, who is one of the most powerful characters in the verse.
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Personally I don't think scaling Jinbe to the Sweet Commanders is accurate unless there's a statement proving otherwise. Scaling him to Ace is much better.
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- #408
Calaca, what do you think of Dr. Fix's suggestion that we don't scale Old Whitebeard to Kaido?
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Old Whitebeard shouldn't be far weaker than Kaido, I think backscaling him to Kaido is the most correct assumption right now.
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I say we wait for Old Whitemustache's tsunami cal, also Therefir seemed to accept Mihwak's tsunami split for its potential energy result at 74.9398016252 Kilotons, so that Town level+ bois... sigh
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- #412
Town level+ Mihawk. Hilarious.
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- #414
I mean, if you have a bunch of reasons for all your ratings then you might as well post them instead of beating around the bush?
Right now I'm focused on clearing through the profiles that we can definitely rate and then move on to the more controversial ones.
Right now I'm focused on clearing through the profiles that we can definitely rate and then move on to the more controversial ones.
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Well I wanted to hear why you singled them out, especially since you didn't provide reasoning in your last post and all your past reasoning was already discussed.
Regardless I'll post these anyway.
6-C is based off of their own calc (Zu) or Luffy's multiplier and then all who scale to him.
Possibly 6-C is based off of your suggestion for Jack via Zuu
At least & Likley is based off of bird cage and Duffy using his awakening to combat Luffy just a bit before beign defeated. The admirals scale in turn because it seems Akoiji is stronger than Duffy (Albeit not to the extent he can one shot him). WB scales for hurting Akainu and Shanks scales because he stopped Akainu and matched WB. BB is just there because I don't know where else to put him as the last Yonko.
At least is fairly self explanatory
Likely is best I could come up with for the WB commanders. Jozu did hurt Akoiji just barely to he needs to be at least this. He's still not very good in feats to put him higher though.
Regardless I'll post these anyway.
6-C is based off of their own calc (Zu) or Luffy's multiplier and then all who scale to him.
Possibly 6-C is based off of your suggestion for Jack via Zuu
At least & Likley is based off of bird cage and Duffy using his awakening to combat Luffy just a bit before beign defeated. The admirals scale in turn because it seems Akoiji is stronger than Duffy (Albeit not to the extent he can one shot him). WB scales for hurting Akainu and Shanks scales because he stopped Akainu and matched WB. BB is just there because I don't know where else to put him as the last Yonko.
At least is fairly self explanatory
Likely is best I could come up with for the WB commanders. Jozu did hurt Akoiji just barely to he needs to be at least this. He's still not very good in feats to put him higher though.
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- #416
Cracker and Smoothie wouldn't scale based on the multiplier.
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- #418
No, I mean, even if we used the multiplier how would that make Cracker and Smoothie 6-C? What is being multiplied exactly? What's the value of it?
Even if you're multiplying Gear 3, Luffy's Gear 3 doesn't scale to the durability of the Birdcage.
Even if you're multiplying Gear 3, Luffy's Gear 3 doesn't scale to the durability of the Birdcage.
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- #420
That is flawed for a few reasons.
The calc is for the durability of the Birdcage, not its Attack Potency.
Doffy's strings can vary in attack potency & durability quite a lot depending on the technique he is using. It is impossible to say all his regular attacks are High 7-A+.
The calc is for the durability of the Birdcage, not its Attack Potency.
Doffy's strings can vary in attack potency & durability quite a lot depending on the technique he is using. It is impossible to say all his regular attacks are High 7-A+.
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Put another way let's look at all the calcs:
6-C feats
Enels: doesn't seem to be used for anyone so I'll leave him be.
Fugi's Meteor's which you take issue with, though I know others like Rin don't have a problem with it.
Luffy's Gear 4 multiplier from Duffy's birdcage- Again you have taken issue with both the multilier and the birdcage while others have no problem using them.
That just leaves Zuu's swing at 4 gigatons
Jack is the only character who directly scales, but again you take issue with it. Personally I think he could scale since there is no visible sign of damage. Therefore Kign & Queen can likley scale as well.
Kaido doesn't scale by feats but because he's known as the #1 strongest in the verse at the moment.
That eliinates all the 6-C possibilities :S
I know you scale WB to Kaido but that's self defeating. Kaido can only scale by virtue of being number 1. If WB is equal to Kaido then he is no longer #1and therefore cannot scale. It is self defeating.
Putting hype aside, Kaido's feats eclipse Old WB's. Kaido has yet to take damage from anyone while WB took damage from EVERYONE at Marineford.
Again, I've read your counter to this as they are all outliers.
An outlier is defined as a result in a set which is disproposionate to the rest.
Ex: say we did 4 calcs for one feat. 3 of them got island level, and one got country level.
What you define as outliers would be 462/465. Less than 1% are NOT outliers, but the 99% are.
That's just insane on the face of it :S Clealry you have it backwards.
Sorry but I don not beleive everyone at Marine Ford was vastly above the entirety of the strawhat's crew, all of BM's subordinate's, and the entire Dox Family. That's just nuts.
Even if we ignored that Wb's stats are conclusively inferior to Kaido's. Hypothetically, say we put aside all the damage WB took and focus on only the Admiral damage.
None of the WB commanders were able to injure Akainu nor Kizaru. Jozu was the only 1 of 16 who was able to damage Akoiji, who was not one of the admirals to damage WB.
Quite the opposite actually. Akoiji tried to freeze both WB and Jozu, but his results varied dramatically. Thus proving WB>>Jozu.
The difference between Akoiji was also fairly high. Yes, he managed to damage him a little, but if you compare the two blows their basically night and day.
Therefore even if we assume Kizaru and Akainu scale to WB, Akoji does not and Jozu certainly does not.
Granted this may all be different if Zuu was rated as 40 gigatons. Then there would be some room for all the scaling:
Kaido=WB=Akoji=Jozu=Marco=Ace etc
but its only baseline island level at 4 gigatons so that would be saying WB has 16 men + himself at the level of Yonko :S
Which goes back to the hypothesis that the Yonko have to be equal for balance. If we follow this idea through, then WB's crew gives him an overwhelming monopoly.
It also means Kaido's #1 title is not only wrong, he's basically fodder.
So long story short, if you eleiminate:
Fugi's meteors
Base Duffy scaling to Birdcage
Gear four multiplier
Zuu
You really aren't left with any reasonable calc to give 6-C rating to anyone in One peice aside from Zuu and Kaido.
6-C feats
Enels: doesn't seem to be used for anyone so I'll leave him be.
Fugi's Meteor's which you take issue with, though I know others like Rin don't have a problem with it.
Luffy's Gear 4 multiplier from Duffy's birdcage- Again you have taken issue with both the multilier and the birdcage while others have no problem using them.
That just leaves Zuu's swing at 4 gigatons
Jack is the only character who directly scales, but again you take issue with it. Personally I think he could scale since there is no visible sign of damage. Therefore Kign & Queen can likley scale as well.
Kaido doesn't scale by feats but because he's known as the #1 strongest in the verse at the moment.
That eliinates all the 6-C possibilities :S
I know you scale WB to Kaido but that's self defeating. Kaido can only scale by virtue of being number 1. If WB is equal to Kaido then he is no longer #1and therefore cannot scale. It is self defeating.
Putting hype aside, Kaido's feats eclipse Old WB's. Kaido has yet to take damage from anyone while WB took damage from EVERYONE at Marineford.
Again, I've read your counter to this as they are all outliers.
An outlier is defined as a result in a set which is disproposionate to the rest.
Ex: say we did 4 calcs for one feat. 3 of them got island level, and one got country level.
What you define as outliers would be 462/465. Less than 1% are NOT outliers, but the 99% are.
That's just insane on the face of it :S Clealry you have it backwards.
Sorry but I don not beleive everyone at Marine Ford was vastly above the entirety of the strawhat's crew, all of BM's subordinate's, and the entire Dox Family. That's just nuts.
Even if we ignored that Wb's stats are conclusively inferior to Kaido's. Hypothetically, say we put aside all the damage WB took and focus on only the Admiral damage.
None of the WB commanders were able to injure Akainu nor Kizaru. Jozu was the only 1 of 16 who was able to damage Akoiji, who was not one of the admirals to damage WB.
Quite the opposite actually. Akoiji tried to freeze both WB and Jozu, but his results varied dramatically. Thus proving WB>>Jozu.
The difference between Akoiji was also fairly high. Yes, he managed to damage him a little, but if you compare the two blows their basically night and day.
Therefore even if we assume Kizaru and Akainu scale to WB, Akoji does not and Jozu certainly does not.
Granted this may all be different if Zuu was rated as 40 gigatons. Then there would be some room for all the scaling:
Kaido=WB=Akoji=Jozu=Marco=Ace etc
but its only baseline island level at 4 gigatons so that would be saying WB has 16 men + himself at the level of Yonko :S
Which goes back to the hypothesis that the Yonko have to be equal for balance. If we follow this idea through, then WB's crew gives him an overwhelming monopoly.
It also means Kaido's #1 title is not only wrong, he's basically fodder.
So long story short, if you eleiminate:
Fugi's meteors
Base Duffy scaling to Birdcage
Gear four multiplier
Zuu
You really aren't left with any reasonable calc to give 6-C rating to anyone in One peice aside from Zuu and Kaido.
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- #422
I feel like you've got a lot of my arguments and positions on this wrong.
There's a lot in your post to unpack but I'll just a point out a couple things:
- Whitebeard (and the other Yonkou) can scale indirectly to Kaido to be in the same tier but not the same numerical value of stats.
- Whitebeard's Commanders are not all equally powerful; so nobody is arguing that Whitebeard has 16 6-C men.
- You are correct that Aokiji does not scale directly to Whitebeard, but he does scale directly to Akainu.
- Some results are indeed outliers, some are not. I don't know why you're saying that I claim everything is an outlier?
There's a lot in your post to unpack but I'll just a point out a couple things:
- Whitebeard (and the other Yonkou) can scale indirectly to Kaido to be in the same tier but not the same numerical value of stats.
- Whitebeard's Commanders are not all equally powerful; so nobody is arguing that Whitebeard has 16 6-C men.
- You are correct that Aokiji does not scale directly to Whitebeard, but he does scale directly to Akainu.
- Some results are indeed outliers, some are not. I don't know why you're saying that I claim everything is an outlier?
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BTW, Rin's calc about Zou was accepted. Is 28 Gigatons.
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@Damage: Again Kaido is somwhat in a tier of his own based on hype and feats. You can see a more detailed breakdown here .
whther its 4 or sixteen, to base off rank is to apply to all of them as Ace etc don't have a higher rank. Again,even fodder were able to damge WB so its not much of a feat to hurt him like it would be to injure BM or Kaido.
He scales off-panel which should always be taken with a grain of salt. A<B<C does not mean A will be equal to C.
Because you pointed out only the admirals before in your earlier response. They inflicted all of three injuries. Basic math so you're either callign all the rest outliers or are unaware of the damage he took.
whther its 4 or sixteen, to base off rank is to apply to all of them as Ace etc don't have a higher rank. Again,even fodder were able to damge WB so its not much of a feat to hurt him like it would be to injure BM or Kaido.
He scales off-panel which should always be taken with a grain of salt. A<B<C does not mean A will be equal to C.
Because you pointed out only the admirals before in your earlier response. They inflicted all of three injuries. Basic math so you're either callign all the rest outliers or are unaware of the damage he took.
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Except Doflamingo has taken hits from Luffy in gear 2nd and 4th, both of which being capable of snapping Doflamingo's threads (Gear 2nd off-panel, Gear 4th outright on panel in a few instances). If Jozu can not break free from Doflamingo's hold, then logically Doflamingo should be at the very least comparable to Jozu in power. Not to mention Jozu was halted mid-charge/attackDamage3245 said:
It's unquestionable that Doflamingo is way stronger than Gear 2nd Luffy as of Dressrosa. The gap in their power only shrank once Law landed Gamma Knife despite Doflamingo managing to recover. Luffy could barely deal any damage to Doffy, even with his strongest Gear 2nd attacks, and Doflamingo had one-shot him on more than one occasion (First round punch leaving Luffy laying on the ground, second encounter kick to the face leaving him stunned for minutes).
Doflamingo should not be much weaker than Gear 4th Luffy (overall, as we know a physical contest goes to Gear 4th every time), considering he was able to withstand attacks in several instances despite being noted as weakened by Law's attacks, and not using Haki to defend himself.
Where-ever Jozu scales, Doflamingo should. If Gear 4th Luffy is a certain tier, it should be noted that Doflamingo took hits from him, and thus scale to his tier with a "likely".
Example (I don't know where the scaling is going to sit, so this is a random tiering): If Jozu is High 7-A, Gear 2nd Luffy being High 7-A and Gear 4th Luffy 6-C,
Doflamingo should be At least High 7-A (Stronger than Gear 2nd Luffy and Law, stopped and held Jozu in place with his threads), likely 6-C (Could take blows from Gear 4th Luffy and held him off with his Awakening [albeit without Haki] for a 20 minute time-frame, despite Luffy pressing an offensive the entire time).
Doflamingo's current stats don't make sense considering he is scaling to 3 different 6-C character (before updates ofc) and is listed as "At least High 7-A" (Gear 4th Luffy, Jozu, and to a small degree, Aokiji)
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Kaido being in 'a tier of his own' does not mean that the other Yonkou are not comparable to him. Did you see how much he was panicking when Big Mom was invading Wano?
If he was so heavily stronger than her it would be no sweat for him to fly on over and destroy her crew and herself.
And Prime Whitebeard was acknowledged as the strongest man in the world - so you must at least concede that is somewhat comparable to Kaido.
Now, the debate about Old Whitebeard is a separate matter that we'll address. But why should Prime Whitbeard, Big Mom and Shanks not scale to the same tier as Kaido?
If he was so heavily stronger than her it would be no sweat for him to fly on over and destroy her crew and herself.
And Prime Whitebeard was acknowledged as the strongest man in the world - so you must at least concede that is somewhat comparable to Kaido.
Now, the debate about Old Whitebeard is a separate matter that we'll address. But why should Prime Whitbeard, Big Mom and Shanks not scale to the same tier as Kaido?
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Also Sabo should not fully scale to Fujitora. Fujitora noted that he was unable to stop Luffy "because he was held up by Sabo" as an excuse for voluntarily letting Luffy go to Doflamingo without causing any suspicion.
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I mean, Sabo beat Burgess, stomped Bastille (A Vice Admiral) and would've stomped Diamante (who scales comparative to Vergo, another Vice Admiral). It's logical for him to be High 7-A scaling to these 2 feats, and also fending off Fujitora, who was fighting casually.
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- #434
Ttenrr; feats are the most optimal resource for scaling.
But beyond that statements and common sense are the best we have sometimes.
Crocodile was explicitely not scared of Invankov; he knew that Ivankov knew of a secret of his and was essentially blackmailed into not causing trouble.
Kaido was worried about all-out war with the Big Mom Pirates.
But if people don't want to scale Big Mom to Kaido, we'll just have to scale her to Gear 4 Luffy.
But beyond that statements and common sense are the best we have sometimes.
Crocodile was explicitely not scared of Invankov; he knew that Ivankov knew of a secret of his and was essentially blackmailed into not causing trouble.
Kaido was worried about all-out war with the Big Mom Pirates.
But if people don't want to scale Big Mom to Kaido, we'll just have to scale her to Gear 4 Luffy.
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I'm all for Kaido having a bunch of hype but saying that he's the strongest Yonko is unsupported. We've never seen Yonko fight each other one on one on screen and we know that Kaido has been captured by other Yonko in the past. Currently the Yonko should all be equal to each other more or less.
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IMO putting some characters equals between each others (Admirals, Yonkos and Yonko Commanders) would be the best option as long as we don't have any better way to rate them. There are a few exceptions of course (like Fujitora) but considering them as equals or comparable should be safe.
BTW, Kaido and co should scale to Zunisha's footstep but Jack would still scale to his trunk swing so in any case the God Tier of the verse gets affected with a semi-solid 6-C while the Top Tier should get the At least High 7-A, Possibly 6-C by now.
BTW, Kaido and co should scale to Zunisha's footstep but Jack would still scale to his trunk swing so in any case the God Tier of the verse gets affected with a semi-solid 6-C while the Top Tier should get the At least High 7-A, Possibly 6-C by now.
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The Kaido is the strongest isn't supported. The only statment that implies it is the narrartor stating that people believe Kaido always wins in a one on one: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-KOmIUHBQv...hDPKKxiS4Fq5lQpqnjDhSQCHM/s16000/0795-016.png
This doesn't mean Kaido does always win or is the strongest it's just what people believe.
This doesn't mean Kaido does always win or is the strongest it's just what people believe.
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I agree Rin.
So, we can at least put down:
Jozu did very minor damage to Aokiji with a surprise attack, but that was it. He ended up being defeated by him very easily.
Likewise Marco was shredded by Kizaru and landed attacks on all three Admirals but never did any significant damage IIRC.
Vista clashed swords with Mihawk but Mihawk is an unreliable character to scale to tbh.
Ace supposedly burned Old Whitebeard, clashed with Blackbeard before he gained his Devil Fruit and cancelled out a single attack from Aokiji before being one-shot by Akainu.
So how do we actually want to scale to Whitebeard Commanders?
So, we can at least put down:
- Kaido: 6-C (Scaling to Zunisha)
- Prime Whitebeard: 6-C (Scaling to Kaido)
- Big Mom: 6-C (Scaling to Kaido)
- Shanks: 6-C (Scaling to Kaido)
- Mihawk: 6-C (Scaling to Shanks)
- Akainu 6-C (Scaling to Whitebeard)
- Kizaru: 6-C (Scaling to Whitebeard)
- Aokiji: 6-C (Scaling to Akainu)
- Rayleight: 6-C (Scaling to Kizaru)
- Blackbeard (Post-Gura): 6-C (Scaling to Whitebeard)
Jozu did very minor damage to Aokiji with a surprise attack, but that was it. He ended up being defeated by him very easily.
Likewise Marco was shredded by Kizaru and landed attacks on all three Admirals but never did any significant damage IIRC.
Vista clashed swords with Mihawk but Mihawk is an unreliable character to scale to tbh.
Ace supposedly burned Old Whitebeard, clashed with Blackbeard before he gained his Devil Fruit and cancelled out a single attack from Aokiji before being one-shot by Akainu.
So how do we actually want to scale to Whitebeard Commanders?
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Jozu made Kuzan bleed when he was right in front of Newgate. He was fully prepared for an attack of the old man so I think Jozu would kinda scale to 6-C but not to the same extent of Aokiji's scaling chain.
At least High 7-A, Likely 6-C for Marco, Ace, Jozu and Vista should be fine.
Oh, and one thing I forgotten: Don't call marine fodders stabbing Newgate outliers. Except for few cases (Big Mom and Kaido) OP characters have no hard skin w/o Armament Haki. This isn't like Bleach where if you are stronger than your opponent his sword slashes will do nothing against your skin. Luffy must dodge a sword slash coming from Kuro and Mihawk. The same goes for bullet. That's why the Vinsmokes, Tekkai, Armament and Kaido and Big Mom are a big deal.
At least High 7-A, Likely 6-C for Marco, Ace, Jozu and Vista should be fine.
Oh, and one thing I forgotten: Don't call marine fodders stabbing Newgate outliers. Except for few cases (Big Mom and Kaido) OP characters have no hard skin w/o Armament Haki. This isn't like Bleach where if you are stronger than your opponent his sword slashes will do nothing against your skin. Luffy must dodge a sword slash coming from Kuro and Mihawk. The same goes for bullet. That's why the Vinsmokes, Tekkai, Armament and Kaido and Big Mom are a big deal.
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Again with the double negatives
Yes, Rin correctly pointed out we have not seen Yonko fight on panel. So why scale them to each other? The narrator is the best source since it knows all and is unbias."people say Kaido wins 1-1" is better then any character (People) saying WB wins 1-1. Kaido was captured many times and by his enemies and they tried to kill him. Tried being the key word. Why is Kaido still alive if WB, BM, etc want him dead, had the opprotunity to kill him, but failed. . . . Many times over?
Its not because of immortality, Kaido does not fit the criteria of immortality.
Its not invulnerability, that is a NLF and Kaido does have a scar from god knows what.
There's only one answer in that whatever the ircumstances behind his captures are (Could have gone on a bender a wound up in the ocean for all we know) the point is that after the capture none of the top tiers in 40+ years can hurt him.
Even after all of his defeats/captures, people still say he is the strongest. Now why would they think that if every other Yonko, admiral, and WB commander among others can scale to him?
I don't really want to continue beating a dead horse. So I rather leave it to what I've posted here and in the God tier thread from here.
To sum up
Kaido should not scale to other Yonkos based on hype that favours him. There are no feats to support it yet either.
Old WB does have feats and its pretty clear he does not come close to BM nor Kaido.
WB commanders are way too far removed to scale just because Jozu punched a guy who's below a guy who injured WB durign a heart attack, along with every other character at marine ford.
And Duffy scales above Jozu
Yes, Rin correctly pointed out we have not seen Yonko fight on panel. So why scale them to each other? The narrator is the best source since it knows all and is unbias."people say Kaido wins 1-1" is better then any character (People) saying WB wins 1-1. Kaido was captured many times and by his enemies and they tried to kill him. Tried being the key word. Why is Kaido still alive if WB, BM, etc want him dead, had the opprotunity to kill him, but failed. . . . Many times over?
Its not because of immortality, Kaido does not fit the criteria of immortality.
Its not invulnerability, that is a NLF and Kaido does have a scar from god knows what.
There's only one answer in that whatever the ircumstances behind his captures are (Could have gone on a bender a wound up in the ocean for all we know) the point is that after the capture none of the top tiers in 40+ years can hurt him.
Even after all of his defeats/captures, people still say he is the strongest. Now why would they think that if every other Yonko, admiral, and WB commander among others can scale to him?
I don't really want to continue beating a dead horse. So I rather leave it to what I've posted here and in the God tier thread from here.
To sum up
Kaido should not scale to other Yonkos based on hype that favours him. There are no feats to support it yet either.
Old WB does have feats and its pretty clear he does not come close to BM nor Kaido.
WB commanders are way too far removed to scale just because Jozu punched a guy who's below a guy who injured WB durign a heart attack, along with every other character at marine ford.
And Duffy scales above Jozu
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