Stefano4444
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Well if Summit War Saga is going to be included, even if Luffy didn't have any notable upgrade, then Fish-Man Island Saga deserve to be included as well.Damage3245 said:
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One Piece Post-Timeskip Scaling and Calcs #3
- Thread starter Damage3245
- Start date
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- #82
Alright, yeah.
By the way, I don't think Caponge Bege and Bonney should have Pre-Timeskip tiers. I think we only need their ratings for Post-Timeskip. Anyone else agree?
By the way, I don't think Caponge Bege and Bonney should have Pre-Timeskip tiers. I think we only need their ratings for Post-Timeskip. Anyone else agree?
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I agree. They are the only one Supernova who did nothing to deserve a key.
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- #84
Yeah, Urouge, Drake, Hawkins, and Apoo all fought Kizaru or Pacifistas, or both.
Eustass and Law also fought Pacifistas (mostly off-screen) and also had significant presence to be comparable to Luffy.
Killer... didn't actually do much of anything, so I'm not sure if he should have Pre-Timeskip key either.
Eustass and Law also fought Pacifistas (mostly off-screen) and also had significant presence to be comparable to Luffy.
Killer... didn't actually do much of anything, so I'm not sure if he should have Pre-Timeskip key either.
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IIRC Killer clashed with Urouge before Drake stopped them.
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- #86
Oh right. Fair enough.
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Thinking about the PX series one of them should be comparable if not stronger than Oars. Both PX and Oars required a teamwork from the Strawhats. The whole crew ended in a much worse state after defeating the Pacifista than the aftermath from Oars's fight.
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- #88
I'm pretty sure they were in a worse state after fighting Oars than they were fighting the Pacifista.
The reason why they then got into a much worse state is because another Pacifista and Sentomaru showed up.
The reason why they then got into a much worse state is because another Pacifista and Sentomaru showed up.
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They finished the first Pacifista after going all out. I'll look for the scans later.
Also, the Pacifista took attacks from the Monster Trio with the amps at the same time and was barely damaged (including Asura which Oars never faced).
Also, the Pacifista took attacks from the Monster Trio with the amps at the same time and was barely damaged (including Asura which Oars never faced).
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Thing I remember from that fight:
- Franky damaged it in the chest with his air cannon.
- Chopper did some mild damage with an attacks.
- Robin didn't damage it directly but made it shows its mouth and set off its laser in its head.
- Nami put a lightning bolt through it.
- Sanji kicked it towards Zoro who cut it with Asura.
- Luffy finished it off with a Gear 3 Rifle.
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- #91
Sure, a Pacifista being somewhat comparable to Oars makes sense.
Both were damaged by the crews attacks, and both were finished off with a Gear 3rd move.
The durability of a Pacifista is probably around Large Town level / At least Large Town level.
Reading back on it; Usopp's attacks did nothing until one of them got into its mouth. Brooks attack did nothing to it at all.
So neither of them, nor Robin IMO would scale to harming the Pacifista. Even Franky's Iron Boxing barely did any damage to it.
Both were damaged by the crews attacks, and both were finished off with a Gear 3rd move.
The durability of a Pacifista is probably around Large Town level / At least Large Town level.
Reading back on it; Usopp's attacks did nothing until one of them got into its mouth. Brooks attack did nothing to it at all.
So neither of them, nor Robin IMO would scale to harming the Pacifista. Even Franky's Iron Boxing barely did any damage to it.
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I'll list every attack they made to the Pacifista:
And this is the aftermath:
The Monster Trio is tired. Even Luffy stated that he needs to rest.
When Sentomaru and the other Pacifista made showed Sanji stated that they can't fight in that state.
So it was even worse than Oars because they had the energies to fight with Moriah (at least Luffy).
Bonus:
And this is the aftermath:
The Monster Trio is tired. Even Luffy stated that he needs to rest.
When Sentomaru and the other Pacifista made showed Sanji stated that they can't fight in that state.
So it was even worse than Oars because they had the energies to fight with Moriah (at least Luffy).
Bonus:
- Urouge can do the same by himself when amped.
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- #93
Well, in Urouge's case the Pacifista got straight back up and kept fighting so his attempt isn't much better than the Monster Trio's combination attack.
Still, the durability of a Pacifista is impressive. Franky, Brook, Robin, base Urouge, and Sanji without Diamble Jambe can't hurt them.
Still, the durability of a Pacifista is impressive. Franky, Brook, Robin, base Urouge, and Sanji without Diamble Jambe can't hurt them.
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Yeah, in later in the fight Sanji said that even with DJ the recoil he gets from the toughness is bad for his leg.
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Hmm, just looking through some of the pages of the Thriller Bark Arc, and really, the ship does not look like it is 4.4 km across.
Granted, Oars is likely drawn to inconsistent height sometimes but the panels of Thriller Bark and the buildings on it would suggest a smaller size.
Granted, Oars is likely drawn to inconsistent height sometimes but the panels of Thriller Bark and the buildings on it would suggest a smaller size.
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That's the one panel which's inconsistent the most.
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- #98
I added on a few more pages. The ship is huge, sure, but something seems off.
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The same would happen with Dressrosa if for some reason Oda gives us a height for Golem Pica.
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- #100
A fair point. Varying perspectives can give wildly different results - if I remember rightly one of the ends for your calc on Thriller Bark was 13 kilometers.
For the sake of consistency I'm going to try and collect a list of all the wide panels we get of Thriller Bark's size and see what it is consistently drawn like.
Chances are it might not have an impact but I'll have a look anyway.
Also, I'm pretty sure the mast is drawn to be a lot smaller than 567 meters wide.
For the sake of consistency I'm going to try and collect a list of all the wide panels we get of Thriller Bark's size and see what it is consistently drawn like.
Chances are it might not have an impact but I'll have a look anyway.
Also, I'm pretty sure the mast is drawn to be a lot smaller than 567 meters wide.
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That's why I'm going with the Low End now. It's the one who grants the most consistent feats.
Okay, good luck.
Okay, good luck.
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Okay, what should Oars' rating be? Due to not feeling any pain & having limitless stamina, he had a lot more endurance than any other character in that arc. Makes it hard to tell how much damage some characters were doing to him.
I do remember was dealt an extremely serious injury by a tired Gear 3 Luffy which - going by the Water 7 Saga - should be around Large Town level. So maybe that should be his durability which we can scale Zoro too at least since Zoro did a pretty heavy cut to him.
I do remember was dealt an extremely serious injury by a tired Gear 3 Luffy which - going by the Water 7 Saga - should be around Large Town level. So maybe that should be his durability which we can scale Zoro too at least since Zoro did a pretty heavy cut to him.
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He was roughly comparable to DJ Sanji since the latter needed that attack in order to stop an attack from Oars.
That G3 isn't good to measure his power since he was already restricted and the only reason why he took a broken spine was due to the previous conditions (Chopper explained this during the battle).
So yeah, Large Town Level but not due to being one shoted by G3 but being comparable to DJ.
That G3 isn't good to measure his power since he was already restricted and the only reason why he took a broken spine was due to the previous conditions (Chopper explained this during the battle).
So yeah, Large Town Level but not due to being one shoted by G3 but being comparable to DJ.
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- #104
Okay - this would make Nightmare Luffy roughly Large Town level too for seriously hurting Oars, and Moria by extension remained conscious after a single punch from Nightmare Luffy but was knocked unconscious by a barrage of punches from Nightmare Luffy.
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I was thinking about Luffy's rapid fire tecniques. Is there a chance to make those attacks's tiers above Luffy's general AP?
If somebody wonders about some characters scaling to that then don't worry. The few times Luffy has used those attacks after the Raigo incident was the Jet Gattling (which defeated Lucci) and Storm against Oars.
If somebody wonders about some characters scaling to that then don't worry. The few times Luffy has used those attacks after the Raigo incident was the Jet Gattling (which defeated Lucci) and Storm against Oars.
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- #106
I do think that he could have a higher with some techniques like the Gum-Gum Storm. Despite taking numerous hits from him before both Crocodile and Oars were defeated after being hit by the Gum-Gum Storm and it was enough to knock out Moriah for a few minutes.
(Technically Oars got back up afterwards but that's just because he's a zombie who doesn't feel pain and can't be knocked unconscious)
(Technically Oars got back up afterwards but that's just because he's a zombie who doesn't feel pain and can't be knocked unconscious)
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Yeah, a higher seems better. Or a far higher considering the difference.
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I honestly don't think there should be a "higher" with rapid fire techniques. Luffy's Storm is his strongest move, so it obviously should be able to beat/knock out people equal to/below him. If we put the rapid fire techniques separately from his normal moveset, then that implies that luffy normally is below the likes of crocodile/moriah.
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- #109
Well, in the Alabasta Saga Luffy was pretty clearly below Crocodile.
As for Moriah, I don't think he and Luffy actually had a lot of direct fighting with each other until the end of the arc.
As for Moriah, I don't think he and Luffy actually had a lot of direct fighting with each other until the end of the arc.
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Enel is the only antagonist that was indirectly attacked by that kind of power. And he shouldn't scale for two reasons:
As for Moriah, the only reason why he was troublesome is the Doppelman which is nearly invulnerable considering you can 'break his neck' with no real effect. His regular durability comes from tanking one Nightmare Luffy punch but we have no clue of his AP. Only Shadow Asgard should have a proper rating.
- Ricocheting the attack would likely drain some strength.
- Enel didn't took the same number of attacks as Crocodile, Lucci and Oars took.
As for Moriah, the only reason why he was troublesome is the Doppelman which is nearly invulnerable considering you can 'break his neck' with no real effect. His regular durability comes from tanking one Nightmare Luffy punch but we have no clue of his AP. Only Shadow Asgard should have a proper rating.
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Moriah managed to hurt Robin and Sanji (a little) with his regular shadow attacks. We don't know Moriah's physical AP but we can at least put that for his regular AP.
And yeah, Shadows Asgard is a pretty big boost to his power making him even stronger than Oars.
And yeah, Shadows Asgard is a pretty big boost to his power making him even stronger than Oars.
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So Shadow Asgard should be At Least High 7-C as a lowball if the calc isn't reliable. And considering the calc is barely above the 500KT it's not a stretch.
For regular Moriah High 7-C should be fine.
For regular Moriah High 7-C should be fine.
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- #113
I agree.
Large Town level Oars
Large Town level Moria
At least Large Town level Shadows Asgard
At least Large Town level Nightmare Luffy
Main reason why Luffy could beat Shadows Asgard with a combo of Gear 2 + 3 is that Moria was on the verge of losing anyway when he activated that technique and was doing all he could to keep the souls within him.
Large Town level Oars
Large Town level Moria
At least Large Town level Shadows Asgard
At least Large Town level Nightmare Luffy
Main reason why Luffy could beat Shadows Asgard with a combo of Gear 2 + 3 is that Moria was on the verge of losing anyway when he activated that technique and was doing all he could to keep the souls within him.
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Yeah he wasn't fighting back but trying to keep the shadows.
If the calc is correct then Luffy's Dura and Gear stacking would be High 7-C +.
If the calc is correct then Luffy's Dura and Gear stacking would be High 7-C +.
Stefano4444
He/Him- 6,100
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No, Luffy was always on disavantage mostly because Crocodile was a Logia, the moment he started to use water/blood to nullify his intangibility it became a even fight, with Luffy triumph at the end.Damage3245 said:
Yes Crocodile defeated Luffy with ease before, however it must be remember that:
- The first time Luffy lost because he didn't had a way to counter his intangibility, making him impossible to even harm him.
- The second time Luffy lost because Crocodile was able to touch him and suck all the moisture, aka he used hax and not brute force.
So no, technically speaking Alabasta Crocodile and Alabasta Luffy were equal in term of physical stats and raw power.
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@Damage and @Calaca, what would you both say Thriller Bark Robin's rating would be? I've always found it very strange that she doesn't have a rating for it on her page considering a lot of her feats that arc. Such as pinning Oars's massive arm to his back, restraining and hurting Base Moriah with a chokehold, and nearly beating him had her Clutch connected on him. Now that I think about it, right now I don't think any of the Straw Hats got a rating for that saga, except for Nightmare Luffy and Brook.
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Most of those feats are for Lifting Strength rather than AP. Restraining someone is only possible if your LS is above your opponent's. And considering she uses grappling tecniques that make internal damage then she should be At Least 7-C+ for being possibly stronger than her Enies Lobby self.
Right now we're discussing if the rest of the Strawhats deserves more keys and there's the possibility that some of them get some new ratings. Nami and Usopp from Arabasta Saga would be High 8-C via powerscaling and some feats if not higher. We need all the calcs for Mr. 4's explosions. If those results are around High 8-C+ or 8-B then the rest of the assassins stronger than him and Lassoo should be 8-B as well and so the people who matched them and defeated them.
Chopper might get some more keys as well considering the tier jumps. The same goes for Franky. The only one who shouldn't get more keys is Brook for obvious reasons. He added himself to the crew in the last arc with a separate tier.
Nami should have: Arabasta Saga | Skypiea Saga (it's still a boost since she sustained the damage from one Impact Dial which is 10x weaker than the Reject so at the very least she is At least 8-A+ or Low 7-C) | Enies Lobby Saga | Thriller Bark Arc | Dressrosa Saga | Whole Cake Arc (after Zeus).
Usopp: I don't think we need an East Blue key for him since he barely fights in that part of the series and didn't had that many abilities as he had later Arabasta Saga | Skypiea Saga | Enies Lobby Saga | Thriller Bark Arc | Dressrosa Saga. We're probably going to see him gaining some power ups in this arc so a new key is likely but right now he should remain with Dressrosa as the top.
Chopper: Arabasta Saga | Skypiea Saga | Enies Lobby Saga | Thriller Bark Arc | Dressrosa Saga | Whole Cake Arc (there're some things that he upgraded like his weakness in Monster Point and the possible dura upgrade in Guard Point)
Robin: Skypiea Saga (barely did nothing in Arabasta to give her a key) | Enies Lobby Saga | Thriller Bark Arc | Dressrosa Saga
Franky: Enies Lobby Saga | Thriller Bark Arc | Dressrosa Saga
Brook: Thriller Bark Arc | Dressrosa Saga I prefer it like that instead of Pre and Post TS.
Is everything correct?
Right now we're discussing if the rest of the Strawhats deserves more keys and there's the possibility that some of them get some new ratings. Nami and Usopp from Arabasta Saga would be High 8-C via powerscaling and some feats if not higher. We need all the calcs for Mr. 4's explosions. If those results are around High 8-C+ or 8-B then the rest of the assassins stronger than him and Lassoo should be 8-B as well and so the people who matched them and defeated them.
Chopper might get some more keys as well considering the tier jumps. The same goes for Franky. The only one who shouldn't get more keys is Brook for obvious reasons. He added himself to the crew in the last arc with a separate tier.
Nami should have: Arabasta Saga | Skypiea Saga (it's still a boost since she sustained the damage from one Impact Dial which is 10x weaker than the Reject so at the very least she is At least 8-A+ or Low 7-C) | Enies Lobby Saga | Thriller Bark Arc | Dressrosa Saga | Whole Cake Arc (after Zeus).
Usopp: I don't think we need an East Blue key for him since he barely fights in that part of the series and didn't had that many abilities as he had later Arabasta Saga | Skypiea Saga | Enies Lobby Saga | Thriller Bark Arc | Dressrosa Saga. We're probably going to see him gaining some power ups in this arc so a new key is likely but right now he should remain with Dressrosa as the top.
Chopper: Arabasta Saga | Skypiea Saga | Enies Lobby Saga | Thriller Bark Arc | Dressrosa Saga | Whole Cake Arc (there're some things that he upgraded like his weakness in Monster Point and the possible dura upgrade in Guard Point)
Robin: Skypiea Saga (barely did nothing in Arabasta to give her a key) | Enies Lobby Saga | Thriller Bark Arc | Dressrosa Saga
Franky: Enies Lobby Saga | Thriller Bark Arc | Dressrosa Saga
Brook: Thriller Bark Arc | Dressrosa Saga I prefer it like that instead of Pre and Post TS.
Is everything correct?
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Those look like right amount of tiers to me.
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How come Robin's getting a Enies Lobby Saga key but not a Alabasta one? She actually did more in the latter than she did the former.
And what about a Fishman Island key where the Straw Hats show off their improvements from their training?
ETA:
I agree with your rating for TB Robin.
And what about a Fishman Island key where the Straw Hats show off their improvements from their training?
ETA:
I agree with your rating for TB Robin.
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- #120
I don't think Robin needs an Enies Lobby key either. She did nothing that arc except break Spandam's back.
Skypiea, Thriller Bark and Dressrosa should be enough.
Skypiea, Thriller Bark and Dressrosa should be enough.
