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One Piece General Discussion: Elbaph

Kachon123 said:
That's definitely fair but I'm mostly just comparing the AP of Luffy and Zoro. Obviously in the grand scheme of things Luffy tried much harder against Kaidou than he did against Lucci, but its not like he was just jobbing around, which would still place the AP of attacks like Dawn Whip, Rocket, and Mole Pistol above his Base AP attacks.
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I wanna nip this in the bud because a lot of people seem to take this literally when there's no reason to do that.
First of all, if Luffy really does "go all out for everything", then again, why didn't he use Advanced Haki on Lucci? He also never used it on the Seraphim (at least from the bits of their fight we saw), and he took a long time to use ACoC on Kizaru.
He clearly didn't really mean that he goes "all out for everything", he was just saying that in the moment.
I'm not saying he wasn't at least trying a little against Lucci, but to use that panel to imply that is a little weird, because it certainly doesn't mean what everybody seems to think it means.
Kachon123 said:
Since we know that Base Luffy is at least as strong as Yamato
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Eh..... Wouldn't say that.
Kachon123 said:
and the AP of Santoryu CoA/ACoA Zoro could take out Lucci in a way that Luffy didn't, that already puts Zoro's AP above Yamato's.
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Well, Luffy and Zoro are completely different in terms of fighting styles. Luffy hit him with one fist in one area, while Zoro slashed him with three swords across his body and gave him nine big bleeding gashes on his arms and torso.
If Luffy were a swordsman, he'd do the same. And I'm willing to bet Yamato would too if she were a swordsman (or she'd at least be able to do 70-80% of that damage, which is good enough).
Kachon123 said:
As for Lucci himself, his speed definitely scales above Yamato's
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Again, wouldn't exactly say that, since again she does downscale from Hybrid Kaido and could move nearly as fast as his Hybrid TB with her own.
Kachon123 said:
his Haki is relative at worst and much better at best
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This is just plain nonsensical, though.
Even if you could somehow argue he has better Armament (which in it self is kind of illogical), she still has a major advantage by having ACoC.
Also, she seems to have better Observation.
Kachon123 said:
he's more versatile, can literally fly,
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Correct.
Kachon123 said:
has better range
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Correct.
Kachon123 said:
better endurance and regen,
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Better endurance, not really, since the dude was out cold for a few seconds from a CoA G5 punch, while Yamato was still ready to fight after enraged Hybrid Kaido beat on her with ACoC and CoA (without her even defending herself either).
Better regen/recovery, yeah, though great enough damage/pain can't be regenerated from judging by his reaction to Zoro's attack.
Kachon123 said:
and relative AP at worst.
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Again, not really, Yamato could still draw blood from Hybrid Kaido and what not, while Lucci's scaling is a little wonky given his interactions with Luffy and Zoro.
Kachon123 said:
Yamato's only hope in a fight with him would be to freeze him, but we know Haki can break people out of ice, so she has no real wincon.
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That's true, but if she could land it on him, then it should give her enough time to follow up with a TB, even if he could break out of the ice seconds after.
 
DaMonkeMan said:
I wanna nip this in the bud because a lot of people seem to take this literally when there's no reason to do that.
First of all, if Luffy really does "go all out for everything", then again, why didn't he use Advanced Haki on Lucci? He also never used it on the Seraphim (at least from the bits of their fight we saw), and he took a long time to use ACoC on Kizaru.
He clearly didn't really mean that he goes "all out for everything", he was just saying that in the moment.
I'm not saying he wasn't at least trying a little against Lucci, but to use that panel to imply that is a little weird, because it certainly doesn't mean what everybody seems to think it means.
Click to expand...
Yeah I know that. Notice how I didn't say "he went all out when fighting Lucci," but instead saying that it's not like he didn't try at all.
DaMonkeMan said:
Eh..... Wouldn't say that.
Click to expand...
How come?
DaMonkeMan said:
Well, Luffy and Zoro are completely different in terms of fighting styles. Luffy hit him with one fist in one area, while Zoro slashed him with three swords across his body and gave him nine big bleeding gashes on his arms and torso.
If Luffy were a swordsman, he'd do the same.
Click to expand...
I don't doubt this. The difference is lethality, but the point stands that he still needs AP around that level to be able to do that to Lucci, who could recover from some of Luffy's attacks. It's that lethality that makes it so much easier for him to take out Yamato than vice versa.
DaMonkeMan said:
Again, wouldn't exactly say that, since again she does downscale from Hybrid Kaido and could move nearly as fast as his Hybrid TB with her own.
Click to expand...
And Lucci could dodge an attack from Gear 5 Luffy, who is superior to the version of himself that blitzed a Post-Shuron Hakke Kaidou's Thunder Bagua. Again, you're comparing Pre-Shuron Hakke Kaidou to Post-Shuron Hakke Kaidou. That just doesn't work.
DaMonkeMan said:
This is just plain nonsensical, though.
Even if you could somehow argue he has better Armament (which in it self is kind of illogical), she still has a major advantage by having ACoC.
Click to expand...
How is that an advantage? ACoC isn't automatically stronger than Buso.
DaMonkeMan said:
Also, she seems to have better Observation.
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She has 0 Kenbun feats. She couldn't even sense Luffy dying or turning into Gear 5. She needed Momonosuke to point it out for her. If anything, her Kenbun is absolute baseline level.
DaMonkeMan said:
Better endurance, not really, since the dude was out cold for a few seconds from a CoA G5 punch, while Yamato was still ready to fight after enraged Hybrid Kaido beat on her with ACoC and CoA (without her even defending herself either).
Click to expand...
CoA Gear 5 > Pre-Shuron Hakke Kaidou who wasn't using the full extend of his Haki or strength. Also, that's durability not endurance. Endurance measures how long you can go after your body withstands injuries. Lucci took attacks that dealt far more damage than anything Yamato was left with and could keep going.
DaMonkeMan said:
Better regen/recovery, yeah, though great enough damage/pain can't be regenerated from judging by his reaction to Zoro's attack.
Click to expand...
That's a feat for Zoro, not an anti-feat for Lucci.
DaMonkeMan said:
Again, not really, Yamato could still draw blood from Hybrid Kaido and what not, while Lucci's scaling is a little wonky given his interactions with Luffy and Zoro.
Click to expand...
Post-Shuron Hakke vs Pre-Shuron Hakke.
DaMonkeMan said:
That's true, but if she could land it on him, then it should give her enough time to follow up with a TB, even if he could break out of the ice seconds after.
Click to expand...
That's a big if first off, and secondly there's no real proof that the Thunder Bagua would leave him with significant injuries, considering the absolute most it would do is leave him with a broken bone, which he can regenerate from. Unless you think Yamato's Thunder Bagua, or any of her attacks are somehow superior to a Dawn Whip or Mole Pistol from Gear 5 Luffy, her putting him down or dealing relevant damage to him is out of the question.
 
I'm not sure if I'm making any sense with the "Pre-Shuron Hakke Kaidou vs Post-Shuron Hakke Kaidou" stuff, so let me explain:

Kaidou's Haō is stated to grow stronger as he drinks, and as we know that means he grows physically stronger as well. This is reflective in his feats as well.

1. Kaidou was taking some pretty hefty damage from Snakeman Luffy, but after drinking/becoming more drunk, he could tank the attacks.
2. Kaidou using Haō was relative to Snakeman Luffy and couldn't deal damage to him despite punching his fist head on (we know that against stronger opponents Luffy's fist can be damaged), but after drinking/becoming more drunk, he could deal significant damage to Snakeman Luffy without even using Haō.
3. Similar to #2, after drinking/becoming more drunk, his Haō attacks could nearly oneshot Bounceman Luffy

Sidenote: Looking back on Luffy vs Kaidou, Kaidou is such a beast man. Shuron Hakke is such an underrated amp
 
Kachon123 said:
Yeah I know that. Notice how I didn't say "he went all out when fighting Lucci," but instead saying that it's not like he didn't try at all.
Click to expand...
Alright.
Kachon123 said:
I don't doubt this. The difference is lethality, but the point stands that he still needs AP around that level to be able to do that to Lucci, who could recover from some of Luffy's attacks. It's that lethality that makes it so much easier for him to take out Yamato than vice versa.
Click to expand...
True.
Kachon123 said:
And Lucci could dodge an attack from Gear 5 Luffy
Click to expand...
And he also failed to dodge attacks from him thrice. Once while he was using a speed amp.
Kachon123 said:
How is that an advantage? ACoC isn't automatically stronger than Buso.
Click to expand...
It isn't, but it's still a massive power amp, and it's one that Lucci doesn't have at all.
Kachon123 said:
She has 0 Kenbun feats.
Click to expand...
Well, you can argue with who ever put a list of Kenbun feats she has on her profile.
Kachon123 said:
CoA Gear 5 > Pre-Shuron Hakke Kaidou who wasn't using the full extend of his Haki or strength. Also, that's durability not endurance. Endurance measures how long you can go after your body withstands injuries. Lucci took attacks that dealt far more damage than anything Yamato was left with and could keep going.
Click to expand...
How? Again, the dude literally passed out from a Dawn Pistol (or what ever it was called). And I don't even think that attack had Haki in it. Even a huge Yamato hater like you has to admit it's really dumb to claim that she can't at least do what a Hakiless speed amped Dawn Pistol did to him.
Kachon123 said:
That's a feat for Zoro, not an anti-feat for Lucci.
Click to expand...
I'm well aware, I'm just saying his recovery/regen still has a limit.
Kachon123 said:
That's a big if first off, and secondly there's no real proof that the Thunder Bagua would leave him with significant injuries, considering the absolute most it would do is leave him with a broken bone,
Click to expand...
This is gonna be a painful argument for me ain't it? I'm reaping what I've sowed, though, can't complain about that.
 
Also I guess you're right, I do have to make that fanfic (even though I don't recall saying I would).
I should be finished writing it by the time the new Smiling Friends ep comes out (Monday 12:00).
If I drop it any later than that you get to cut off two of my fingers.
 
DaMonkeMan said:
And he also failed to dodge attacks from him thrice. Once while he was using a speed amp.
Click to expand...
Gear 5 Luffy is definitely faster than Lucci by a lot. That's not really debatable (Luffy literally slept while dodging him), but the point still remains that he was able to dodge at least one attack from him, which still places Lucci's speed above Yamato's Thunder Bagua since Gear 5 Luffy was able to blitz a Shuron Hakke Kaidou's TB while Yamato's best speed feat is matching a pre-Shuron Hakke Kaidou's TB speed.
DaMonkeMan said:
It isn't, but it's still a massive power amp, and it's one that Lucci doesn't have at all.
Click to expand...
We're comparing strength of Haki (needed to break out of ice), not the the amps given. Also, that's still pretty debatable in and of itself.
DaMonkeMan said:
Well, you can argue with who ever put a list of Kenbun feats she has on her profile.
Click to expand...
I mean to say 0 Kenbun feats that would put her above the standard Kebun usage level. Lucci was able to sense the Elders with Kenbun at a relative pace to Zoro (same reason we rate the Admirals as having relative Kenbun). Zoro's Kenbun is above the standard Kenbun usage level.
DaMonkeMan said:
ven a huge Yamato hater like you has to admit it's really dumb to claim that she can't at least do what a Hakiless speed amped Dawn Pistol did to him.
Click to expand...
I genuinely don't think she can. This isn't even hate. I mean we're talking about GEAR 5 LUFFY here. Yamato was in awe of the power of BASE LUFFY and was even more shocked about gear 5. I really have no reason to believe that Yamato can replicate this.
DaMonkeMan said:
I'm well aware, I'm just saying his recovery/regen still has a limit.
Click to expand...
A limit that Yamato seemingly can't reach. This was a Lucci after getting destroyed by Luffy 3 times and having to recover each time, and then fighting the Seraphim, and then fighting Zoro for an extended period of time.

It hurts me to defend Lucci here but I'm trying to look at this from an objective standpoint. Even on the profiles, Lucci scales above Yamato in durability and AP to the point where her attacks won't be much of an issue. I can't see her winning.
 
Kachon123 said:
I genuinely don't think she can. This isn't even hate. I mean we're talking about GEAR 5 LUFFY here. Yamato was in awe of the power of BASE LUFFY and was even more shocked about gear 5. I really have no reason to believe that Yamato can replicate this.
Click to expand...
I'm sorry but I gotta throw in the towel. I don't have the mental strength for this argument. I'm very sorry.
 
I lost my stubbornness man. A while back I woulda argued about that until the sun came up. Now I just can't bare reading those takes back to back like that.
I'm getting too old for this powerscaling stuff.. Might pass the torch to my fellow Lucci hater @Shadyboi0
 
Not sure if someone already posted this
GN3vg-Ri-XYAEt-V5y.png
 
Kachon123 said:
Gear 5 Luffy is definitely faster than Lucci by a lot. That's not really debatable (Luffy literally slept while dodging him), but the point still remains that he was able to dodge at least one attack from him, which still places Lucci's speed above Yamato's Thunder Bagua since Gear 5 Luffy was able to blitz a Shuron Hakke Kaidou's TB while Yamato's best speed feat is matching a pre-Shuron Hakke Kaidou's TB speed.

We're comparing strength of Haki (needed to break out of ice), not the the amps given. Also, that's still pretty debatable in and of itself.

I mean to say 0 Kenbun feats that would put her above the standard Kebun usage level. Lucci was able to sense the Elders with Kenbun at a relative pace to Zoro (same reason we rate the Admirals as having relative Kenbun). Zoro's Kenbun is above the standard Kenbun usage level.

I genuinely don't think she can. This isn't even hate. I mean we're talking about GEAR 5 LUFFY here. Yamato was in awe of the power of BASE LUFFY and was even more shocked about gear 5. I really have no reason to believe that Yamato can replicate this.

A limit that Yamato seemingly can't reach. This was a Lucci after getting destroyed by Luffy 3 times and having to recover each time, and then fighting the Seraphim, and then fighting Zoro for an extended period of time.

It hurts me to defend Lucci here but I'm trying to look at this from an objective standpoint. Even on the profiles, Lucci scales above Yamato in durability and AP to the point where her attacks won't be much of an issue. I can't see her winning.
Click to expand...
What chapter did this happen in? Eseseso always mentioned Gear 5 Luffy being faster than TB but I could never find the panel showing it.
 
vsbattles.fandom.com

Galakrond

Great I am. You would be great too.[1] There can be only one me....[1] Galakrond was a massive proto-dragon,[2] who is known as the "progenitor of dragonkind".[3][4] He was a threat which five proto-dragons of varying colors united against.[5] His size alone was greater than all of the Aspects...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
something nefarious is brewing...
 
Also since we're currently at moon level ratings for the top and high tiers of the verse, I wonder if we'll ever get to low planetary.
I know it's nonsensical, but hey, moon level rating for anyone in this verse ain't very logical either, lol.
 
I seriously never thought I'd see the day that the One Piece verse would hit Moon Level ratings. I thought we would be stuck with either Large Mountain Level to Island Level to Large Island Level to Country Level as the highest we could go, especially after all the downgrades. So many downgrades...
 
RoronoaxRobin said:
I seriously never thought I'd see the day that the One Piece verse would hit Moon Level ratings. I thought we would be stuck with either Large Mountain Level to Island Level to Large Island Level to Country Level as the highest we could go, especially after all the downgrades. So many downgrades...
Click to expand...
I bet one day it'll go back down to those. It's a goofy cycle.
Kachon123 said:
Oh yeah, btw the Zoro novel has been translated. Here's the link

https://cubar i.moe/read/imgur/FQAzGq0/1/1/

Remove the space between "cubar" and "i"
Click to expand...
It's fabulous..
 
DaMonkeMan said:
I bet one day it'll go back down to those. It's a goofy cycle.

It's fabulous..
Click to expand...
Trust me, I already know the deal. We lost High 6-A not too long ago, remember?

I wonder what upgrade we're gonna get after the next downgrade? I hope next time somebody can get us to at least Planet Level or even Small Star Level lol.

And I'm already laughing at those idiots who were acting like that fully summary that came out about Zoro's novel was the whole thing. And to make it even funnier, this just part 1.
 
Kachon123 said:
How is that an advantage? ACoC isn't automatically stronger than Buso.
Click to expand...
it is wtf? It’s insanely better than buso

And it’s even stated
Wearing the color of the Supreme Being
Like the "Armament Color," the "Hao Color" can also be worn. If it is worn on a fist or a weapon, it can be used to attack without touching the opponent. The power of the "Hao-ki" is far more powerful than that of the "Armament Color" alone.
Click to expand...
 
RoronoaxRobin said:
I seriously never thought I'd see the day that the One Piece verse would hit Moon Level ratings. I thought we would be stuck with either Large Mountain Level to Island Level to Large Island Level to Country Level as the highest we could go, especially after all the downgrades. So many downgrades...
Click to expand...
This just randomly reminded me of a fan-prediction from the early Raid
txtsjm4jibg51.jpg
 
SlendVeny said:
"We're the hypetools that wipe fools."
Click to expand...
But in all seriousness this is making me realize Sanji's not as weak as I thought
Now, he's still not close to Zoro (at least in power and in Haki), but that doesn't mean he's fodder. Dude's pretty impressive from time to time, especially in terms of speed.
Though I do wonder why Oda never shows him using visibly black Armament. Doesn't matter, but I'm just saying it's weird.
 
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