One Piece: AP Revision of High Tiers

[Stefano4444]

Sanji has been demonstrably weaker than Zoro since the timeskip.

No, its only that because we never see Sanji had a fight again someone with impressive feats by a long time, in anycase the series has consistently show Sanji and Zoro are to around the same level of strength, before and after the Time Skip, claiming otherwise would be factually wrong.

Zoro was stronger than Pica, yes, but perhaps that simply means Pica is overrated? He has impressive environmental destruction because he is able to rearrange the island via his Devil Fruit but in terms of durability he is rubbish.

Pica's feat is not environmental destruction, he has lifted the Flower Hill directly (and not by other means), and nothing suggest that he wouldn't be capable to unleash the same magnitude of power into his physical strikes, at least in his Mountain Size Form.

Unless we're going to differentiate all feats that where performed by Devil Fruit powers and the physicals ones in two separated categories, but that wouldn't make sense since most Devil Fruits (with a few exceptions from the Paramecia) have show to be able of enhanced the physical capacities of the users.

Like Whitebeard with his quakes, Doflamingo with his strings, Crococodile with his sand, Katakuri with his mochi, Fujitora with his gravity or Kizaru with his light.

 

[Damage3245]

Well, I don't want to start a complete verse overhaul yet but nothing is suggesting Pica's ordinary physical strikes are as powerful as the feats he performs with his Devil Fruit.

Generally speaking Devil Fruit usage doesn't use up stamina except for a couple exceptions like Law or the Dwarf Princess, and they don't correspond to physical strength.

Fujitora's lifting strength for example, is undoubtedly less than what he can lift up with his Devil Fruit.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree that Sanji has traditionally seemed to be physically equal to Zoro in terms of raw power, but Zoro is an armed master swordsman, so he is considerably more dangerous.

 

[Stefano4444]

Well, I don't want to start a complete verse overhaul yet but nothing is suggesting Pica's ordinary physical strikes are as powerful as the feats he performs with his Devil Fruit.

Even if you're correct, we still see Zoro overpower Pica in his Mountain Form, and i'm pretty sure we can both agree at least in that case Pica should have been capable to generate the same magnitude of power used to lift the Flower Hill and infuse it intro his physical attacks.

But then why Pica decided to get out of his mountain and confront Zoro directly and only with his Haki, if he knew that he was at his strongest when using his Devil Fruit powers? Wouldn't have been better for him to remain inside the mountain if he couldn't defeat Zoro in a direct fight, so that he can remain safe from danger while keep him busy?

 

[Damage3245]

> But then why Pica decided to get out of his mountain and confront Zoro directly and only with his Haki, if he knew that he was at his strongest when using his Devil Fruit powers? Wouldn't have been better for him to remain inside the mountain if he couldn't defeat Zoro in a direct fight, so that he can remain safe from danger while keep him busy?

Zoro separated Pica from the ground and battled him in the air.

And Pica was overconfident in the defense his full-body Armamament Haki could provide so he - without really any other options - he leaped out to face Zoro.

 

[Stefano4444]

Generally speaking Devil Fruit usage doesn't use up stamina except for a couple exceptions like Law or the Dwarf Princess, and they don't correspond to physical strength.

Fujitora's lifting strength for example, is undoubtedly less than what he can lift up with his Devil Fruit.

Doflamingo has never show to be tired while using his Bird-Cage and we see him using his devil fruit powers to increase the power of his physical attacks, another example is Charlotte Oven where he can increase the power of his punches by heat up his hands.

In the case of Fujitora we also see that he can also infuse his powers inside the sword, i mean the first time we see him use his powers is via a slash of his katana and the Ferocious Tiger is basically his unleash his gravity power via his sword, and if he can do that with a weapon, then i don't see why he couldn't do the same with his body (like with Haki).

With the expections of characters like Bon Clay, Big Mom or Sugar devil fruit users usually have show many times over to be capable to utilize their Devil Fruit powers to enhanced their physical capacities (the rarities are the ones which do not do that), seriously all Logia and Zoan are basically capable to do that and the same with most Paramecia.

 

[Captain_Torch]

I agree with Damage on this one.

Also, I'm iffy on the Pica calc tbh. The HIgh 7-A Pica comes from pica being "built" from the flower hill, but I don't really see how it can translate into AP. At best it would be "environmental destruction"

I think everyone should scale to Zoro's 7-A feat, since it seems much more reliable.

Then Luffy would be 7-A in base via scaling to Zoro, likely 6-C with G2/G3 and "at least 6-C" with G4.

 

[Damage3245]

Doflamingo has never show to be tired while using his Bird-Cage and we see him using his devil fruit powers to increase the power of his physical attacks, another example is Charlotte Oven where he can increase the power of his punches by heat up his hands.

In the case of Fujitora we also see that he can also infuse his powers inside the sword, i mean the first time we see him use his powers is via a slash of his katana and the Ferocious Tiger is basically his unleash his gravity power via his sword, and if he can do that with a weapon, then i don't see why he couldn't do the same with his body (like with Haki).

Exactly; the Birdcage does not drain Doflamingo's stamina. Like most Devil Fruits.

I think you've got a different interpretation of what Oven does to me; the heat doesn't enhance the force of his punches, it just delivers burning / heat-based damage on top of the ordinary force of his punches.

Likewise, Doflamingo doesn't use strings to enhance his power; he just uses strings to attack on top of his ordinary power.

Fujitora infuses his gravity into his sword, true. But you're essentially agreeing with me that he is using his own physical force + the force from his gravity. He is not increasing his physical prowess with the gravity.

 

[Stefano4444]

I think you've got a different interpretation of what Oven does to me; the heat doesn't enhance the force of his punches, it just delivers burning / heat-based damage on top of the ordinary force of his punches.

Maybe, but this would still add ulterior more energy intro his fist, which should increase the attack power of his punches along with his Haki and his natural strength.

And energy is energy, if i can survive an energy blast capable to wipe out planets, then i should be able to tank dozens of mountain busting punches without suffer any form of damage or tank a lightning bolt powered by a continental size thunderstorm, even if the type of attacks are different.

 

[Stefano4444]

Likewise, Doflamingo doesn't use strings to enhance his power; he just uses strings to attack on top of his ordinary power.

But he is enhancing his physical powers, just like he use his Haki to do the same, but unlike the latter is not something that everyone can learn, not without eating the same devil fruit.

But this only affect his Striking Strength and Durability, something like Lifting Strength (or in general his natural physical strength) isn't going to be affected.

 

[Damage3245]

Just to check, it seems like almost everyone agrees with the revisions to Luffy's profile (and by extension, all the people that get their scaling from Luffy)?

Incidentally I do think this will go a long way to fixing the scaling in general because it explains how Big Mom (who is At least High 6-C) could so easily defend herself from G4 Luffy's punch (who will now be At least 6-C).

 

[Standuser081]

Yeah, I can agree with this.

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that Damage's suggestions seem to make sense, yes.

 

[Captain_Torch]

I agree with Damage on this one.
Also, I'm iffy on the Pica calc tbh. The HIgh 7-A Pica comes from pica being "built" from the flower hill, but I don't really see how it can translate into AP. At best it would be "environmental destruction"

I think everyone should scale to Zoro's 7-A feat, since it seems much more reliable.

Then Luffy would be 7-A in base via scaling to Zoro, likely 6-C with G2/G3 and "at least 6-C" with G4.

What about this?

 

[Antvasima]

I am not sure. Sorry.

 

[Standuser081]

I have one last thing to ask. How far is the AP difference between Sanji and Zoro? Because unless the difference is really big, I think Vergo could be compared to Zoro, seeing as he stomped Sanji during their fight.

 

[Damage3245]

Sanji is weaker than Zoro, but I think they should still be roughly on the same tier.

Or at least, I could see Sanji being 7-A while Zoro is At least 7-A.

 

[Stefano4444]

Both Sanji and Zoro should be rank on the same tier.

 

[Damage3245]

Even if Sanji was baseline 7-A, Zoro could be ten times stronger than him and still be 7-A as well.

 

[Standuser081]

That's only assuming that Zoro is high end 7-A.

 

[Damage3245]

Zoro's calced feat against Pica puts him at 485 megatons, and baseline 7-A is 100 megatons. So not high end 7-A, but still stronger than Sanji.

 

[Standuser081]

Does Vergo's feat of breaking Sanji's leg count as a one-shot? Because iirc, you would need to be 5x stronger than your enemy to one-shot them.

 

[Damage3245]

No; Sanji's leg was almost breaking and I believe that was from a clash of each of them hitting each other, not just Vergo hitting Sanji.

 

[Standuser081]

Fair enough. But Vergo still withstood the attack, whereas Sanji nearly broke his leg. Clearly showing that there's a huge difference in strength between them.

 

[Captain_Torch]

bump

 

[Damage3245]

I think everyone is roughly in agreement, I just think Ant wants more staff input since these would lead to changes on numerous profiles?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, in lack of further staff input, I suppose that Damage's suggestions seem to make sense.

 

[Captain_Torch]

@Damage

What's your opinion on Pica's High 7-A calc?

 

[Damage3245]

I'm not a fan of Pica's calc, I don't think it corresponds directly to AP since it is him just shifting around the island's landmarks and not representative of his actual tier IMO.

I agree with you about scaling Luffy to be At least 7-A based off of scaling to Zoro.

 

[fandom_1cheapskate]

I have no issues with these changes at face value so I will continue to follow these changes and chime in if I think anything is too far out of order.

 

[Damage3245]

Thank you. I'll post a full summary of the expected changes later today, like in the OP.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Captain_Torch]

Just noticed that Elizabello has a High 7-A feat. Not sure if the calc was accepted, but I am also the opinion that this punch shouldn't really scale to anyone. It was obviously a special move with the hype to defeat a yonkou. More than that, this attack required quite a lot of prep, so assuming that everyone around elizabello's level scales to that is silly in my opinion.

 

[Damage3245]

Yeah. Nobody directly scales to it.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Wait, I don't understand. What about the 6-C end?

 

[Antvasima]

Didn't Bartolomeo's force field withstand the blow without a scratch?

 

[Js250476]

IIRC yes

I think Chinjao was also even with it destroying Pica

Edit: even Blue Gilly could survive it even if he was knocked out

 

[Captain_Torch]

Nobody was shown to be able to break Barto's shield so far though. It also seems like special hax tbh. It still has weakness, like being pushed, which makes someone still able to beat Bart without breaking his shield

 

[Damage3245]

I know NLF's are obviously bad, but speaking purely in the context of the story of One Piece I don't think anything in the series will ever break his barriers. I think that's the kind of thing Oda is going for with them.

 

[Peter1129]

@Ant Bartolomeo's Barrier was also able to withstand the Birdcage so I'm not sure if withstanding the King Punch is really that impressive.

@Js Chinjao was even with King Punch Lite not the actual King Punch.