One Piece Abilities Addition Thread #4

[Damage3245]

I disagree with Resistance to Power Nullification for Robin.

She couldn't use her abilities while in contact with Seastone, and we know from the Wano arc that sometimes Seastone restraints have weaker densities of Seastone in order to weaken Devil Fruit users without completely immobilizing them.

 

[AstralKing7]

Its still limited resistance. It doesn't really matter how strong the null is as long as it was resisted

 

[Damage3245]

Doesn't it? Because if the null was strong enough to stop her Devil Fruit abilities not to stop her from moving, then it looks like Robin didn't resist anything.

Unless we've got a comment from Spandam or someone along the lines of "She shouldn't even be able to move with those on."

 

[Dr.Fix]

@Damage and Calacs I'm not sure if those are in response to my post or not. As I said, look at the durability negation page and see Kizaru's lasers are the first thing mentioned as an example.

 

[Damage3245]

@Damage and Calacs I'm not sure if those are in response to my post or not. As I said, look at the durability negation page and see Kizaru's lasers are the first thing mentioned as an example.

Do you mean the types? Because the first type on that page is:

> Attacking internal organs - Due to the manipulation of internal energy (or electricity), a character can directly target the internal organs, thereby ignoring the durability of the outer layers (such as leather, armor, etc.). Manipulation of threads is also included in this type, as even a single fibre, penetrated through a crack in the armor, can be fatal.

 

[Dr.Fix]

Even before types:

>>A good example of ignoring the strength would be a laser, which at negligible attack potency, easily cuts through thick steel sheets.

 

[PaChi2]

No. I know this is old. But that is nothing. They are facing an enraged Yonkou who had just casually tanked their only hope of defeating her. Of course they'd piss their pants.

Not sure if anyone addressed this.

 

[Damage3245]

I think we'd need to see feats of Kizaru using his light to ignore durability, instead of assuming it.

 

[Dr.Fix]

What do you mean?

 

[The_Calaca]

Well, Kizaru's lasers (and Pacifista's) phase through skin with ease, but considering Kizaru is a 6-C it's hard to tell he can do that to people comparable or stronger than him.

 

[Dr.Fix]

Kizaru is "likely" 6-C, though I'd like to see that change to 6-C soon if the right scaling is applied.

Regardless more than any other ability this is pretty straight foward durability negation, and the edits haven't exactly been strict about that before.

 

[The_Calaca]

It doesn't change the fact that most of the targets are either people vastly below him, or have inconsistent durability (looking at you, Shirohige).

We have no evidence to treat Kizaru's lasers as Durability Negation more than speculations based on our page. The previous cases that you might be talking about are techniques that show phasing through the body without piercing the skin. Kizaru's lasers do pierce the skin.

 

[Dr.Fix]

Phasing though the body VS Peircing is irrelevant. Yes, finding a way to attack internal systems without worrying about external is one type of dur negation. Lasers are another. We don't need apply the standards of one to the other because it meets the criteria on its own.

 

[The_Calaca]

I don't know how a laser ignores durability. May you elaborate that part to see if Kizaru's fit in the description?

 

[Dr.Fix]

Even before types:
>>A good example of ignoring the strength would be a laser, which at negligible attack potency, easily cuts through thick steel sheets.

Reposting.

 

[The_Calaca]

I'm not sure. It seems really vague to me.

Maybe you should contact staff members to give input about the topic.

 

[Dr.Fix]

Haven't you noticed? @Damage is a staff member now.

But congragulations aside, I don't think that is required. Staff are still required to enforce the policies and such of the forum. The lasers are clearly written under Dur negation. Should be a simple matter.

 

[The_Calaca]

Calc group member, yes. I'm talking about the content moderator and discussion moderator.

They know about the exact criteria of the pages, so they should give their opinion on this.

 

[PaChi2]

When lasers dont make huge explosions like Kizaru's, are usually understood as dura negation.

But...

 

[CinCameron20]

@PaChi2

That's from Film Z, and I'm pretty certain it is not canon (outside of key events like the backstory of Zephyr, since he is confirmed to have been a former Admiral).

• But since this topic is relating to explosions, I'm certain there have been at least a couple cases where the manga shows his beams explode upon contact with the ground. Top right panel is the resulting explosion from when Kizaru shot Luffy through the torso.

In regards to feats though, unless coming into contact with sea-stone (which I'm certain is only shown in Film Z), Kizaru's beams have gone straight through the target with no exception. Granted, unless WB being shot in the arm happened in the manga (doubt it), the strongest character to be hit by the beams is Marco, who is still vastly weaker than Kizaru if we're looking at the stats. >8x difference, I believe.

I'm of the opinion that Kizaru bypasses durability with his beams, but due to his lack of showings against anyone who would be strong enough to pose a threat to him, it's something we can't exactly prove.

 

[PaChi2]

"That's from Film Z, and I'm pretty certain it is not canon (outside of key events like the backstory of Zephyr, since he is confirmed to have been a former Admiral)."

Im aware of that. Its just that I didnt find a better gif.

I wanted the kick he made in the Archi where he destroyed a big tree. A gif of this.


.

 

[Antvasima]

Just a question:

Will Whitebeard and the characters on his level be upgraded to 6-B from the tsunami feat soon?

 

[Damage3245]

@Antvasima; that sort of question is best asked on the Post-Timeskip Scaling & Calcs thread.

I think we're ready to start to discussing it, we were just waiting for the lightning calc discussion to be resolved so that we could make changes based on Big Mom's newest calc.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem. I will unsubscribe to this thread then.

 

[Dr.Fix]

@Cin I'm probably going to regret asking this but where does the 8x come from?

 

[VioIeLFC]

Whitebeard did get hit by Kizaru in the manga

 

[CinCameron20]

@Fix - unless the scaling changed very recently it's from the assumption the 3 Admirals are close to WB in scaling, and also assuming WB is comparable to Kaido... whereas Marco scales above Ace, Jozu, and Vista.

Pretty certain (currently) it's like >2.4GT for Marco vs 27+GT for Kizaru (so apparently 11x difference... not 8. My math failed--thought Zunisha's PE was 19GT instead)

@Everyone - Also, i'm dumb... I blanked out that Kizaru also shot Whitebeard straight through the chest in the manga. So unless we're going to assume Kizaru's AP is > WB's Durability, it's still likely that Kizaru has some dura negating properties w/ his beams. I say likely and not "certainly" since WB's durability and Haki in general is questionable atm.

 

[The_Calaca]

Shirohige's durability is inconsistent and that's why I'm not sure if that counts as proof for being able to pierce like real life lasers do.

I can agree with a compromise tho.

 

[Ronnijuro]

Whitebeard didnt use Armament as defense during the war, thats all. The same is with his CoO and when he tried to use CoC he couldnt. So as we saw, his state in that moment affected his display of Haki, like we saw with Katakuri, Luffy after he uses his G4, etc.

Maybe there are some specific moments when he used Armament as defense, in offpanels fights for example, or CoO, this one against Kizaru when he intercepted him like Rayleigh.

It s obvious that he didnt use it when he was wounded. He took all those attacks which wounded him with his natural body defense, thats all. And he doesnt have aparrently a special though body like BM, Kaido, Vergo, the random brother of the Coliseum and dont know if anyone else right now.

Anyway, attacks of the marines were like mosquito bites, all those were superficial wounds. Unlike Akainu or Kizaru, those were serious wounds as we saw Whitebeard expressions.

 

[CinCameron20]

@Calaca - the only possible excuse is that the officers that stabbed him used Haki, but I can't really use that as confirmation since Haki is still vague and not all of the abilities have been revealed (especially for Busoshoku and Haoshoku). Can't assume a bunch of sub High 7-Cs/Low 7-Bs suddenly gain the AP to harm a 6-C--and even stab through his skin and muscles.

But either way, Kizaru has never failed to pierce through someone entirely (and his beams, although explosive, still act very similar to beams that would simply burn through targets), so I personally think he at least bypasses durability even slightly, similarly to Akainu and Aokiji, who both mitigate durability via freezing or heat.

 

[Ronnijuro]

Bruh, you people really dont understand how works the damage and durability/hardness.

Those marine only scratched him, those wounds were superficial. There is no real damage there. He didnt get weakened after those wounds unlike when he got wounded by Akainu or Kizaru. Why? Because the energy behind the attacks was different. It does not have the same energy a bullet and a stab from a person. The bullet has much more energy, and if you get hit, that energy will spread in your body and can kill you from that because it will affect many places, a large area. The stab does not have that amount because the speed is much slower, so you will get only wounded in a smaller area and as so the energy behind it, so you have more chances to survive. The same is here with Akainu/Kizaru = bullet, marines = stab. The difference ofc is bigger than that, much more.

Anyone can get a wound with paper lets say, but that wound wont weaken you, you will still can run, jump and whatever. That wound is superficial. Even a boxer can be wounded with that, and that doesnt mean nothing because he can take some tough hits from other boxers, hits which would knock out normal people. What is the difference in energy between these 2 things? It is a great difference. With the logic here, one can do a profile to "paper" and put in the same tier as a human boxer in attack power lol.

So no, there is nothing wrong with those marines "harming" Whitebeard.

-Because in the first place like I said, WB didnt use Armament as defense in the war, he wasnt in the state to do so, so his defense was his natural durability and even if he can tank punches from Akainu, thats no the same as taking cutting attacks. So the first point is the obvious difference between cutting and normal hits.

-In the second place, those cutting attacks were no joke, everyone there was above Luffy (they were 1 rank below Viceadmiral, because of their coats you can see it) for example and WB unlike BM, Kaido, Vergo and the other one, doesnt have a natural hard body like BM, Kaido, Vergo and the other one. Hard = resistant to cutting attacks as well as to normal hits. So the second point is that those randoms were not so random and that WB has X natural durability but not hardness in the same amount, lets say his hardness = 0.05*X where X is his natural durability.

-In the third place, those attacks wounded him superficially only, mosquitos bites. He didnt get weakened at all because of it. The third point = irrelevant attacks, superficial wounds he didnt even notice. One of his eyes got hit by a cannon and didnt even blind him or anything at all. And the eye is the most sensitive/tender part of human body. A mosquito by the way can "harm" humans because they can wound them and suck their blood. Mosquito = Tier 10 B. LOL

 

[Dr.Fix]

@Cin I don't think Kizaru scales that close to WSC. The gap between him and Whitebeard along with the gap between WB (At Marine ford) and Kaido is more significant than that. Hence the Admirals are Likely 6-C. Even then I want to see soem adjustments made to scaling using more feats and less assumptions, but that's for another thread.

More on topic let's breakdown two examples of Dur negation

Kuzan's Freezing VS Kizaru's Lasers

Is it a way of durability negation according to said page?

Kizaru: Yes, literally the first example they give.

Kuzan: Not directly, though I assume it might be under one of the other types

Point Kizaru

Is there a feat of the method hurting a much stronger character

Kizaru: Not exactly. Whitebeard's PL was nowhere near Yonko level at Marine ford. He is treated as Island level on his profile though so in effect Kizaru does hurt a much stronger opponent.

Kuzan: None.

Point Kizaru

Are there anti-feats for either one?

Kizaru: no, as Cin pointed out, all of his lasers go through

Kuzan: Yes, against both WB and Don Flamingo. Only Jozu was taken out who's on a much lower level.

Point Kizaru

Points total:

Kizaru 3, Kuzan 0

For Kuzan to keep it on his profile, Kizaru should absolutely have it on his profile

 

[CinCameron20]

@Fix -

1) The Dura Negation page seems to only list major factors, but Kuzan's would likely fall under "Attack Internal Organs", as he's capable of freezing targets down to the bone, and naturally, under Ice Manipulation, there are some properties of durability negation. An example on the page being: "Frostbite to freeze anything to atomic levels making it fragile. Cellular Disintegration by causing frostbites that cannot be repaired." (That's just an example, maybe not something Kuzan is capable of to such an extent, but it still applies, as he stated he can make targets fragile, such as when he froze Robin, and Jozu losing his arm).

• Kuzan definitely has some manner of dura negation, just limited as it has severe weaknesses like heat, vibrations, and the ability to nullify cold/ice.

2) Yeah, I can't say anything on this, since Kuzan was about to fight Whitebeard on two occasions, but got stopped. Everyone else is arguably far weaker. I wouldn't consider this a counter, though. He nearly killed Robin simply by embracing her, and Jozu by putting his hand on him.

3) For Whitebeard, vibrations can not be frozen (scientifically, and also stated by Kuzan. In fact, I believe freezing magnifies vibrations and magnetism, so it's fully countered by the abilities) hence why he so easily escaped. For Doffy... ... either Haki (still uncertain if Busoshoku mitigates DF attacks, as it's not confirmed [yet or ever]), or Kuzan held back and only froze him as a final warning.

• Since Doffy's is highly questionable, I'm unsure on this, but still leaning towards Kuzan's powers not taking full affect in both cases.

 

[Dr.Fix]

1) Yes, I'm not ruling out Dur negation for Kuzan. I merely highlighted that his is in a more gray area then Kizaru.

2) You agreed so I won't say anything beyond repeating Robin and Jozu are weaker characters.

3) Vibrations can't be frozen yes, but flesh can. Put it this way, If Kuzan's attack was as effective on WB as it was on Jozu Whitebeard would be frozen to the bone and his quakes would either

A) not take into effect if they're active ability

B) Destroyed WB if they were a passive ability

Personally I go with the former as WB never displayed any signs he's in constant state of vibration. Thankfully WB is more powerful than Jozu so the freezing doesn't effect him as much and he can power out of the ice structure no harm done.

This goes back to your first point about frostbite. Freezing can weaken the molecular integrity of molecules and the come apart if they have anough power behind it respective to the target. Its the same as a sword forcing them apart or a punch cracking bone. Its a condition of how much damage was dealt after applying stats, not somethign that bypasses stats.

If you like I can show a bunch of cases where freezing doesn't work unless there is stats behind them but I think I made my point already so I won't waste time right now.

P:S in that regard freezing is prob more energy type tha internal type

 

[CinCameron20]

While freezing still uses energy, its affects still lower and ignore durability to an extent (It wont work if it's a 6-C ice user vs some 6-A+ character, but that applies to a lot of 'limited durability negating' abilities that are temperature related or any form that isn't something related to matter manipulation [like atomic levels of destruction]).

I get that you're mostly discussing why Kizaru should have dura negation for x reasons (And I agree he should, just pointing out why I can understand some concern since 90% of the time, he has attacked severely weaker characters, and his beams are still under question in general), I'm just pointing out that Kuzan does have some credible reasons for keeping Dura negation:

1) Freezing slows molecules down, and if you basically froze someone's skin, they'd be brittle, which is a form of "lowering durability", and opposite of stat amp.

2) And since Freezing can stop a target's breathing, damage/kill blood cells, or stop the functions of the brain and other organs, that's a direct form of Durability Negation under "Attacking Internal Organs".

And of course, when we look back at Kizaru, he should definitely have Dura Negation. His beams have pierced every single target without exception (except for any potential future Haki usage), and we know they generate heat since they generate fiery explosions upon hitting the environment.

 

[Dr.Fix]

Attacking Internal Orgas qualifies if they're first bypassed outter layers. Cold bypassing layers goes against everything man-kind has done to protect from winter lol.

Still it may or may not fall under energy attack. I'm not arguing against Kizaru having it, I'm more focused on the double standard of Kizaru not having it at the same time despite making a much better case.

EDIT: A better ability of freezing may be stat reduction since a frozen target has lowered stats but that first requires the act of freezing to take effect.

Frozen=/=Freezing

A 6-C character can freeze a 7-A Character, then a 7-B character can can take out the frozen 6-C character. A 6-C character still may not freeze another 6-C or higher character to the bone