One above all tier (pre-retcon)

[Aurasuke]

So I was just wondering why the One Above All was tier 0. He was stated to create the omniverse which is both reality and fiction but is limited only to the Marvel universe. That means he has no effect on any other franchises such as Demonbane or Chuthulu.

Beyonder is tier High 1-B for being an infinite dimensional being meaning that the Marvel Universe has infinite dimensions confirmed. Yet beings like Nyatharlope can create infinite numbers of infinite universes of infinite dimensions easily.

In other words the only feat the One Above All has that is confirmed is creating a reality of infinite dimensions. Is it because he hasn't shown to have been defeated that he's tier 0? It seems like feat wise it's lower than the average Elder God lol.

Just wondering because it's been bothering me how one series has a tier 0 despite having all other characters being High 1-B or lower meaning no character technically "transcends dimensional space" and by this wiki's definition, that means they are weaker than all Elder Gods.Outer Gods.

By the way I am no means an expert on the One Above All so if I missed something please explain it to me. Also I think it's been established that the fiction vs reality/fourth wall arguments are invaid on this wiki.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

We always allowed that "Omniverse" thing of TOAA to slide because that was the author's intent at the time. They described and stated him as the creator of the omniverse, and wanted us to view him as omnipotent because of it.

 

[Aurasuke]

While it is true that the authors had wanted him to be viewed as "omnipotent", I don't believe that is a very valid argument. For example a being who is tier low 2-C but can reality warp on a universe level scale would be considered pratically "omnipotent" within their fiction. Yet compared to those who can reality warp on higher dimensions they are not. The author may not have thought of higher dimensions and considered universe level reality warping to be considered omnipotent, but that doesn't mean that the character is automatically more powerful.

It's similar to how the Lord of Nightmares's author wanted to create a character who was also virtually omnipotent (breaking 4th wall, etc.)

However despite her intentions breaking the 4th wall is not accepted within this wiki as a valid feat.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

While it is true that the authors had wanted him to be viewed as "omnipotent", I don't believe that is a very valid argument. For example a being who is tier low 2-C but can reality warp on a universe level scale would be considered pratically "omnipotent" within their fiction. Yet compared to those who can reality warp on higher dimensions they are not. The author may not have thought of higher dimensions and considered universe level reality warping to be considered omnipotent, but that doesn't mean that the character is automatically more powerful.
It's similar to how the Lord of Nightmares's author wanted to create a character who was also virtually omnipotent (breaking 4th wall, etc.)

However despite her intentions breaking the 4th wall is not accepted within this wiki as a valid feat.

I agree with all you said. But the thing is, they used to say OAA created EVERYTHING. That includes infinite dimensions, infinite dimensions above, omnipotents in other fictions, real life. Now, of course this is all ridiculous, but it was what omniscient narrators used to state.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

We don't know what the hell Marvel has in it's "Everything", we know it has infinite Dimensions but that's all. Seems unfair to let it slide because it was the author's intent.

 

[Aurasuke]

The word everything sounds well and all if it weren't for the ways Marvel uses their words. They themselves don't describe omnipotent in the truest sense of being able to do anything but instead refer to it as "all powerful".

Thus the more omnipotent one is the more powerful one is, except they seem to use these words interchangeably. They may have said the word everything (including real life), however as they cannot violate their trade mark, it seems unreasonably that we can actually consider something as ridiculous (a fictional character creating real life) as an actual feat.

The word everything is used in very different other fictions, in many different ways as well. We could say that a god created everything but that could only refer to a single universe.

The one above all created everything including fiction and reality but the only way we can reasonably interpret that is the one above all created humans in the marvel universe who wrote stories and books. We cannot say he created everything from every other fiction because our Wiki has stated that breaking the 4th wall is not considered a valid feat.

Thus the only reasonably conclusion is that The One Above all created EVERYTHING but in Marvel only.

As not all fictions are the same (some have more universes than others, some lack higher dimensions etc.) we can't say that Marvel created a space that is above infinite dimension such as the realm of the beyonders.

If we assume that the One Above All can create a space such as the one that Tier 1-A characters live in, and a space never shown in Marvel, that would be a NLF.

Which is why I think that the word everything means TOAA created everything from 0 dimensions to infinite dimensions in Marvel, as well as people in Marvle who could write stories.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/13/135892/2923316-sfuff2uc4.jpg

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

We already settled that using 4th wall things and others fiction can't be used for feats, so all this doesn't mean anything really.

 

[Aurasuke]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Reality_-_Fiction_Interaction

I've seen the post, and I understand the author's intention. However there are many contradictions with that level of thought. For instance in Umineko, the witches see normal reality as mere fiction.

If we take that into a literal sense, Umineko Witches would be real human beings in real life equal to them in power. That was the author's intention yet we do not accept it because of the link that I've showed. Featherine sees all witches as fiction, but to an infinite degree.

In that case, we would simply be a fictional story in the world of the witches, but compared to Featherine who sees pratically every reality as fiction, we all would just be stories within a fictional tale to her.

In other words the author's intentions even if they are explicitly written aren't a very convincing in this wiki.

First reason: It's a false statement, the one above all did not created real life

Reason two: The one above all is a ficitonal character

Reason three: The one above all is a fictional character, thus we can view him on a piece of paper, the author's intentions in Umineko were to treat reality as fiction. Since reality in fiction is just fiction, that would mean that to go a step higher than fiction would be to go to real life. Thuse with that line of logic Umineko witches are real people who can see the one above all as a piece of paper in a comic book.

I understand your argument which is presented here, however I don't think it holds very much water at least in THIS wiki.

Certainly if it was Marvel wiki it would be allowed as the stories come from Marvel, but many problems arise when you link fictional verses together as stated above.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I agree that there are greater inherent logical problems with the One-Above-All than other Tier 0 characters. Especially given that the Beyonder and Beyond Realm being infinite-dimensional had been retconned by Marvel by the time the One Above All was invented. Currently, we only know that the Marvel multiverse is at least 16-Dimensional.

In a way, it was good that Al Ewing retconned the omniverse into being far more limited, as the previous definition did not make any sense. However, various members in this wiki wanted me to keep the "Pre-Retcon" statistics in a separate column.

In any case, I will ask DarkLK about this.

 

[Aurasuke]

I appreciate the help! This may help better define what a tier 0 is in this wiki.

 

[Antvasima]

We already have a definition of tier 0, but this case is admittedly trickier than the rest.

 

[Aurasuke]

Yes, I understand. I will be awaiting your reply.

 

[Antvasima]

Of course, we will probably get lots of people badmouthing us if we downgrade the OAA to just Unknown, given that the character is quite popular, but we probably already have that, and cannot aim to please everybody, just try to strive for accuracy.

 

[Aurasuke]

Yes, that makes sense. Marvel is quite a popular franchise, and the movies it makes are great. Personally I believe that the story itself is more important the power of the characters. However many people these days mistaken power for quality and keep making threads about Goku vs Superman as if the winner of such a battle would determine which series is better overall.

 

[DarkLK]

I basically interpreted the "omniverse creator" thing as suggestion that TOAA will always be higher than anything, regardless of the wording/definition/formulation (ie any fiction), although this is only interpretation.

Well, i additio there is also a such things.

 

[Aurasuke]

But I thought you yourself made a mage on the idea of breaking the fourth wall?

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Reality_-_Fiction_Interaction

Wasn't it stated that such things were not allowed within this wiki? It's also the reason why Lambdadelta and all the other witches in Umineko are tier 1-B rather than tier 1-A or tier 0. If they were really superior to all fictional characters to the difference between reality and fiction they could view characters such as Kami Tenchi or Azazthoth as we view them, just simple pictures and lines on a piece of paper.

Which is why I'm a bit confused by how one would interpret an "omniverse" creator as such when the rules of this wiki clearly forbide 4th wall interference and only measures stories up to their own universe.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it mostly refers to 4th wall interaction between the real writer and fiction. As the page explains, there can still be lots of layers of fiction within a fiction, to different degrees. Mister Mxyzptlk for example can only view 3-Dimensional beings as fiction, whereas Featherine can watch much higher reality in this manner.

 

[Aurasuke]

Yes, that's correct. DarkLK comments links showed scans that have deadpool (I think at least) going to see his authors.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yes, that's correct. DarkLK comments links showed scans that have deadpool (I think at least) going to see his authors.

This sort of thing happens all the time in Marvel and DC.

The Fantastic Four met Jack Kirby.

Stan Lee made appearances in comics.

Animal Man met Grant Morrison.

 

[Antvasima]

Yup, and it never means anything.

 

[Aurasuke]

Correct, which is why I was wondering if DarkLK had anything else besides the interpretation of an omniverse creator assumption as well s a few breaking the fourth wall scans. Something more convincing I guess.

 

[DarkLK]

My interpretation is irrelevant to the fourth wall. Perhaps I will explain my point tomorrow.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the help.

 

[Aurasuke]

Thanks, I would like the clarification as well.

 

[DarkLK]

So, if we consider the Omniverse as a set of all world that possible in reality or fiction, and TOAA as something coming out beyond this.

In this sense, it can not be accepted as a fact, but what was the intention of the authors? Basically, if some thing is not a part of omniverse it means that any possible real or fictional structure or concept will be below this thing. This has nothing to do with the fourth wall, as the fourth wall is just some concept that we use everywhere and it is still c be part of fiction. A hierarchy of such levels is also not something special. I used scans about Deadpool to say that it is possible in Marvel that some world or some authors it is just some part of existence that has no end.

One can see an analogy with the philosophical and theological understanding of God and the incomprehensibility. When any possible analogy is flawed, any possible structure is limited, and any definition is not enough. That is, no matter how complex concept and structure you can think, TOAA always be above this things, because it initially transcends domain of all concepts and structures, domain of the omniverse.

But as I said, this is just an interpretation. If we more strictly come to that issue, TOAA may not be so impressive.

 

[Aurasuke]

An existence with no end though could just be a universe that's infinitely large. However we treat that as universal level. Since Marvel has infinite dimensions confirmed (by beyonder). An infinite world without end could also mean infinite dimensions. Both of them are technically existences with no end.

Yet each story has it's own definition of reality. Some may only have one universe while others have multiple, some have higher dimensions, some have beyond dimensional concepts. If we take Omniverse as reality within Marvel it means he's created all of reality in Marvel.

We cannot say he created any other works of fiction that aren't associated with Marvel such as Dragon Ball Z because it goes beyond the copyright of their franchise. However if it states explicitly that the Omniverse is above all dimensional concepts then this will be acceptable as the word everything is very broad and can be interpreted in many different ways depending on the fiction.

In retrospect, humans cannot comprehend 4 spaital dimensions as we are three dimensional beings. Yet we create characters that are 4 dimensional without really understanding what that really means. Thus technically all 4 dimensional beings are beyond our comprehension.

BTW does it say explicitly that the one above all is above infinite dimensions (beyond pre-rectconned beyonder for example). If he is beyond dimensional concepts he may be tier 1-A, but if he's only beyond the living tribunal who is sixteen dimensions, he would be maybe seventeen dimensions? The main question is whether or not Omniverse is infinite dimensions.

Finally the problem with taking an interpretation of the author's intentions is that the Lord of Nightmares's author may have been intening to make an omnipotent character, but they aren't tier 0 despite having no equal in their fiction or even 1-A.

 

[Antvasima]

@Aurasuke Well, the omniverse was explicitly stated to include all of fiction. However, currently it has been retconned into far less.

Anyway, Beyond Realm being infinite-dimensional was retconned by Marvel. Currently the Marvel multiverse has at most been implied to be 16-Dimensional.

 

[DarkLK]

Maybe my English is so bad that it is very difficult to understand my thoughts or my wording is too confusing, but I have the impression that you are responding to someone else, not to me.

However, even if my English is so bad, there is a scan of the comic book, which is more than obviously not talking about the infinite universe, but about something much greater.

Universe < progenitors of universe < other entities who played with progenitors as with toys (comicbook authors from some other world)


All this is just part of existence where you can wander forever and never find the beginning, the center and the end.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the reply.

 

[Antvasima]

Btw: Do you think that I should add that scan to the OAA page?

 

[DarkLK]

maybe

While this does not prove tier 0, and this is only tangentially related to my point though.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[DarkLK]

Maybe it can also be a synonym for the ultimate ensemble.

Omniverse is also the conceptual ensemble of all possible universes, with all possible laws of physics.

 

[Antvasima]

All right.

 

[Aurasuke]

Maybe it can also be a synonym for the ultimate ensemble.
Omniverse is also the conceptual ensemble of all possible universes, with all possible laws of physics.

I see your point. Basically the idea is that progenitors of reality include spaces beyond dimensional understanding (such as the world where most Chuthulu Gods or Demonbane Gods exist. While this is not definite proof because it is not written explicitly it is your assumption based on the authors intentions. Ultimate Ensemble is limited in a universe of mathmatic understanding, meaning that Tier 1-A or above who are beyond the realm of mathmatics are technically "beyond it". In actuality the authors just didn't care about math and created worlds that completely abandoned that logic.

However the the phrase the omniverse is a conceptual esemble of all possible universes wehre all possible laws of physics is only considered 7 dimensions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gg85IH3vghA

If you look at 1 hours 36 minutes and around 20 to 30 seconds, it explains how 7 dimensional space includes all possible laws of physics according to string theory. Thus the fact the Omniverse has all possible laws of physics does not automatically mean it's even 8th dimensional. This is if we go by string theory.

 

[DarkLK]

I see your point.

Nah.

 

[Aurasuke]

Perhaps it may be a difference in the language then. I speak english mostly but if you speak another language which has words that may be interpreted differently in english then it may be just that.

But anyways, using string theory a universe with different physical laws exist in the 7th dimension, while every physical law is included in a point in the 8th dimension.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gg85IH3vghA

If you look at 1 hours 36 minutes and around 20 to 30 seconds, it explains how 7 dimensional space includes all possible laws of physics according to string theory.

 

[DarkLK]

My point about the power of TOAA are not related to the conceptual ensemble. I just left it here as yet another definition of Omniverse.

Your 7-D thing only applies to the set the 3-D universes, but even Marvel multiverse includes the sets of higher-dimensional universes.

 

[Aurasuke]

Yes, I understand that fictional dimensions don't equal real dimensions in the real world. An actually 12th dimension would be actually impossible to define under the definition of physics as nothing can go beyond 11 dimensions of information. Technically every fiction that actually follows physics can only scale up to 11 dimensions max in the real world because things law different laws of physics are actually 7D in the real world but apparently are not in fiction.

Because Authors in the real world are 3-D creatures, they cannot actually think more than 11 dimensions proposed by string theory unless they go into some serious reality warp with virtual world vs real world for example (I/O).


Well anyway, basically this

Universe < progenitors of universe < other entities who played with progenitors as with toys (comicbook authors from some other world)

other entities who played with progenitors as with toys= higher dimensions?

One Above All> higher dimensions possible all dimensional concepts, but due to Living Tribunal being 16 dimensions, and beyonder being retconned, it may be hard to tell

however https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U-DO is also > dimensions concepts. But he's only 1-A which is why you say it's not definite proof right?