On a Godless Planet: Confusing History With Senpai and Me

[DontTalkDT]

I could have just put this into my next general revision of the verse, but this stuff is confusing enough that I thought having its own thread might be appropriate.

For context: The character Balancer created a pocket dimension called the Divine World. The Divine World is a replica of 1990 Japan:

<Shut up. That was the Divine World. To contain the gods of earth and eliminate any unfairness, a world was created based on a certain era. Thank you very much for using it.>

<The current year is 3203, but the Divine World is set during the 1990s due to certain circumstances.>

(Volume 1-A)

“Yes. Kyushu is Africa, Shikoku is Australia, Honshu is Eurasia, and Hokkaido is America. And in fact, the ley lines connect those parts of the world with the corresponding parts of Japan. During the Earth Age, a plan was carried out to strengthen those connections so controlling Japan would give you the power of those other lands as well.”

And…



“Since this Divine World is Shinto and thus based on Japan, the same applies to it.”


“I knew about that.”

She was a good and obedient girl. She kept Kido from appearing like a know-it-all.



“Then,” she began again. “The non-Shinto gods who have had a real manifestation generally use the part of this Divine World Japan that corresponds to them when setting up a base here. Although the nameless Shinto gods and spirits and the automatons far outnumber them, so they hold a position more like foreign exchange students.”



“Then where does our school fit into all this?”



“It works like this:”

• Each mythology has a virtual manifestation world in an alternate dimension.

• Each mythology has a real manifestation world in the corresponding part of Japan.

• Our school is a gathering place for those who approve of Shinto working with a human to terraform.

• Due to the interests of the various gods and political conflicts, a lot of gods end up gathering in the Tachikawa area.

(Volume 2-A Chapter 2)

Then we get the following statement of Balancer:

<I created this world so either way will work. I made it so humanity already had an idea of their 3rd generation mythology when they left Africa, but I also made it so they met their predecessors in Europe. The question is which way the Olympus gods interpreted it.>

i.e. Balancer made certain events in the far past happen.
So Balancer created the timeline of the pocket dimension, yes?
Well, that would be the first idea, but it has a problem: As Balancer says this concerns things that happened in Africa and Europe. The Divine World is only Japan, though. So its timeline shouldn't contain things that happened in Africa.

So does Balancer just mean that he, like, wrote the history books in Japan so that this stuff is in it? Can't be the case either. The statement mentions how the Olympus gods interpret certain events. To summarize what the debate is about: The Olympus gods have certain weapons made to kill the Giants of their mythology. The group debates which nature these weapons have. That would be determined by which nature the Giants have. On a Godless Planet runs a lot on religion development theory, so the nature of the Giants is determined by what caused them to become incorporated into the religion. One theory is that they are anthropomorphic manifestations of natural disasters. Another is that they represent the (culture of) Cro-Magnons, an alternate form of humanity that at the time was taller and more advanced than modern humans and from which the modern humans learned when they met them.

“Most likely, the oldest existing gods, and the gods of the Pangean mythology, were from the preceding 3rd generation. That would mean Olympus’s gods of war are designed to slay the 3rd generation gods.”

(2-B Chapter 24)

“The Cro-Magnons mostly lived in Europe, West Asia, and Africa’s north coast. But just like humanity migrated over long periods of time, they must have been found here and there beyond those places.

“It is highly likely that humanity encountered them during the early part of their migration. And it is thought their crossbreeding with modern humans is what created the foundation of the Caucasoid humans who live in Europe and West Asia. As a result, they disappeared ten thousand years ago, leaving only modern humans behind. Do you know what this means?”


“The giants.”

Tenma turned toward the thunder god, so he clarified.


“During the time when the humans were creating their myths, they met the ‘giants’ who had preceded them and learned a lot of new technology and ways of thinking from them, but then they disappeared. Is that what you’re trying to say?”

“Yeah, that’s it all right. And now we have two possible answers.

“Anthropomorphized nature worship from an age before writing.

“The history of the culture absorbed from the older forms of humanity.”

“If the giants are anthropomorphized nature worship, the gods of war will be designed to battle giant gods. They will likely fight using divine protections and spell power.”

And…

“If the giants are modern humanity’s history with the older forms of humanity, then they will be a collection of technology. In that case, the gods of war will likely use physical speed, attack power, and mechanical abilities to pull off the same effect as divine protections and spells.”

(2-B Chapter 25)
I.e. dependent on how history went, the powers/equipment of the Greek gods would be different and Balancer said explicitly that he made it so that either may be the case, not that it would be the case regardless. It was his decision. He could have done something else if he wanted to.

So the history in question has actual effects on the present, meaning it must "have happened" to an extent more than just being what Balancer programmed in as knowledge in the Divine World.

To summarize the facts:

1. Balancer created the world so that humanity knew of the 3rd Generation mythology when they left Africa and met their predecessors in Europe.
2. Neither Europe nor Africa is part of the Divine World.
3. What actually happened in the past has actual consequences on the world, beyond just what people believe happened.

So what do we make out of this?

My best guess is that Balancer, whose primary power is shaping reality through powerful Information Manipulation (Type 2), created the world so that the things in it had the attribute of "being the result of a past where humanity knew of the 3rd Generation mythology when they left Africa and met their predecessors in Europe".
I.e. rather than actually creating a past, he just created a present that has an abstract property of having the history Balancer desired.
So he basically has "History Manipulation" as an ability.

What would we actually put on the page then, though?
I would suggest to pick one of those two options:

1. Just write "History Manipulation" and a corresponding explanation of what that means like the paragraph above this one. Don't link it to anything at all. Pro: That's neutral. Con: People will probably complain in vs-threads as it's too complicated for them to judge what to do with that.
2. Make it something like Causality Manipulation as the closest equivalent: One could think of the power as making it so that the cause of the present Divine World is a history in which the desired things happened. Pro: It's a specific ability that's easily classified. Con: It's a questionable equalization.

What do you think, everyone?


Edit: To tag on something related to this - Whatever we decide here Balancer should also have (limited) Power Nullification via it. That is because the world being set in 1990 also makes it so that Yomoji doesn't have his authority over the heliocentric system in it, as in actual history he only got it 1992.

“So Yomoji-senpai can do the rotation?”

I was pretty sure there was a story that worked against that. Y’know, that one. Um…



“Galileo, was it? Um, that whole thing with the earth revolving around the sun. Yomoji-senpai’s thugs or whoever were against that, weren’t they?”



<Are they a gang or something?>

“No, no,” said Yomoji while waving his hands side to side.



“That one was a realllly bad move. I don’t like rejectinnng more developed ideaaas. You need to be more flexible.”

But…



“Myyy people actually took that one baaack in 1992, so it’s accepted nowww. That means the heliocentric theory is under my controlll now.”



“For realsies!?”

Oh, I realized.



“It’s 1990 right now, isn’t it?”



<It is actually past 3000 CE, idiot. But…>



“Do you get it? It’s about politics.”



“…”



“What is it, Sumeragi-kun?”


“Oh, um, that line sounded familiar.”



“––––––”

Yes, I remembered it.

I had never heard it before, but I hadn’t forgotten it. That meant I just had to speak the thought that had popped into my mind.


“Some people had this world set before ’92 so Yomoji-senpai wouldn’t be given too much authority, right?”

“The heliocentric theory was spread by the Jesuits, so that would be the…15th or 16th Century? That puts it past when the myths came about, so the later mythologies don’t even have that in them. And with the existing myths, there was no real need to incorporate the heliocentric theory into them. In fact, it was best to avoid that since it might conflict with their teachings. …At times like that, they tend to take a divided view where the teachings determine the extent of the gods’ abilities and the scientists determine how things actually work. But…”


“That makes the myths and the gods something separate from the human world, doesn’t it? They’re a little too good at segregating us away, aren’t they?”


“And that is why myyy advantage shines so bright.”

●

It seemed to me like the authority deck was stacked too heavily in certain gods’ favor.

Yomoji-senpai was probably well outside the norm. He was blatantly OP.

 

[Vietthai96]

1. Information Manipulation (Type 2), and eh....... Data Manipulation???, cause virtual world i think, i agree with Info 2 and since it is virtual world, should also have Data manip??

2. Ehh, from the look of it, History Manip is Causality Manip

3. Where is your ping power, you can ping staffs to evaluate you know

 

[DontTalkDT]

1. Information Manipulation (Type 2), and eh....... Data Manipulation???, cause virtual world i think, i agree with Info 2 and since it is virtual world, should also have Data manip??

Don't worry, he already has that ability. It's just about the history stuff.

2. Ehh, from the look of it, History Manip is Causality Manip

Well, that's one of my options, so I would be ok with that.

3. Where is your ping power, you can ping staffs to evaluate you know

I can, but I generally don't wanna abuse it for my unimportant little threads, unless I have a specific reason to ping someone or I lose my patience.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

It does seem like causality stuff.

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

Funny how I found a thread regarding history manipulation just below this thread,

So yeah if history is changed its basically the casuality manipulation.

 

[Vietthai96]

Actually it is depend on contexts, sometime it could even be fate hax, or both causality and fate hax. But generally, history mostly associate with the past, so manipulate the past is causality hax. As causality hax is you manipulate cause and effect, either changing the cause to create different effect or undo/revert the effect, the past associate with the cause so yeah it is causality hax if you manipulate the past

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

it could even be fate hax,

If targeted at future then it's fate hax

 

[DontTalkDT]

bump

 

[Vietthai96]

damn, i lost notification bruhh but anyway

bump

i think it is time to use your ping hax, the thread is barren as a desert

 

[Zeinx1]

bump

It's a little strange coming from you...

 

[Jozaysmith?]

or I lose my patience.

I totally think you're 100x more cooler now

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

I totally think you're 100x more cooler now

Did i just had a "Deja vu" or u deleted and reposted the same chat just now?

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

Did i just had a "Deja vu" or u deleted and reposted the same chat just now?

No it is not just you. I also have seen that.

 

[Jozaysmith?]

Its the system, i didn't delete anything

 

[DontTalkDT]

Did i just had a "Deja vu" or u deleted and reposted the same chat just now?

That's just me stealth-bumping the thread.

 

[Deceived3596]

I personally lean towards option 2 instead of option 1 since I don't believe it would be that much of a "questionable equalization". It can be argued to not fully fit the context of these statements, but it's also not far-off what Causality Manipulation is capable of doing either.

 

[Spectra_Schiffer]

looks good

 

[Lynieryz]

From what I understand, the Divine World [Japan] encompasses all mythologies, and this world is the size of Japan. The other continents and pantheons are spatially contained in specific regions of Japan:
[Kyushu/Shikoku/Honshu/Hokkaido]
What Balancer did was manipulate the past in another part of this Japan.

 

[DontTalkDT]

From what I understand, the Divine World [Japan] encompasses all mythologies, and this world is the size of Japan. The other continents and pantheons are spatially contained in specific regions of Japan:
[Kyushu/Shikoku/Honshu/Hokkaido]
What Balancer did was manipulate the past in another part of this Japan.

By the Divine States-World Interaction Theory (which is what that quote is talking about) each part of Japan represents a part of the world, however that is not to be understood as the other regions being spatially contained in Japan. This theory actually already was in place 1000 years prior to the pocket dimension on the actual planet Earth (Owari no Chronicle already mentions it, for example). It's a supernatural connection, by which certain regions of Japan and the world influence each other, making Japan a representative model of the world at large.
However, Japan is still regular Japan. While there is a part symbolizing Africa it is not Africa-like.
As an example, part of the discussed history is how humanity crossed temporarily dried out seas:

Tenma drew a line from Africa’s east coast to the Red Sea exit leading to the Arabian Peninsula.

“Around 70 thousand years ago, the Earth had cooled and the ocean level had dropped, so it was possible to cross some of the seas. That is how humanity left Africa. A large group traveled north from Egypt and gathered in the Middle East near Iran. Then they began migrating to different places.”

There is no analogue to the Red Sea in Japan.
And a key factor to the theory is that there were changing environments, which doesn't work with all environment in Japan still being Japan-like.

<Modern humans left Africa a lot later than their fellow Homo sapiens, the Cro-Magnons. Spending so much time in an unchanging environment delayed their acquisition and development of language even with the necessary physical and genetic traits. When they left Africa, I think they must have gone through that development while coexisting and fighting with their Homo erectus and Neanderthal predecessors, but the Cro-Magnons must have achieved that ahead of them.>

Basically, I don't think that they mean Kyushu when they talk about Africa.

 

[Lynieryz]

By the Divine States-World Interaction Theory (which is what that quote is talking about) each part of Japan represents a part of the world, however that is not to be understood as the other regions being spatially contained in Japan. This theory actually already was in place 1000 years prior to the pocket dimension on the actual planet Earth (Owari no Chronicle already mentions it, for example). It's a supernatural connection, by which certain regions of Japan and the world influence each other, making Japan a representative model of the world at large.
However, Japan is still regular Japan. While there is a part symbolizing Africa it is not Africa-like.
As an example, part of the discussed history is how humanity crossed temporarily dried out seas:

There is no analogue to the Red Sea in Japan.
And a key factor to the theory is that there were changing environments, which doesn't work with all environment in Japan still being Japan-like.


Basically, I don't think that they mean Kyushu when they talk about Africa.

Is the divine world the same thing as that?↓↓↓

Each mythology has a virtual manifestation world in an alternate dimension.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Is the divine world the same thing as that?↓↓↓

No. The Divine World is a real manifestation world, i.e. a physical world.
A virtual manifestation world is a world for virtual manifestations, which are incorporeal. More specifically, it's a virtual world.

“Indeed they do. But…what about when that authority was established in the current age? Especially in the virtual manifestation world where the gods of many different mythologies coexist?” she said. “The virtual manifestation is used to partially recreate the necessary myths for the development and creation of the gods while still in a virtual state.

If one considers that their creator, Balancer, is an AI I think it's probably not all too wrong to say that they are basically video games.

Since virtual manifestation worlds are different alternate dimensions from the Divine World, I don't think they would influence this issue, in any case.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

Yeah option 2 makes the most sense

 

[DontTalkDT]

What's the record for longest time taken for a CRT to pass? lol
I get the feeling I should just start tagging staff members instead of stealth bumping

 

[DontTalkDT]

@Elizhaa @Everything12
You guys list yourself for various of the more abstract topics on the knowledgable members list and I don't know who else would have particular knowledge on this so... what do you think?

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

What's the record for longest time taken for a CRT to pass? lol
I get the feeling I should just start tagging staff members instead of stealth bumping

1 year ,with homestuck

 

[Elizhaa]

Option 2 makes more sense to me, too. History manipulation, from what noticed, had always been treated as a variation of causality manipulation.
I think limited Power nullification is fine.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Thanks for the eval.

I applied it. So I will close this now.