Omnipresence

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Antvasima

Hence why we're not like PowerlistingWikia, which lists every power in the furthest, most wildest possible definition period.

Theologically (Which is where the concept of Omnipresence comes from, in both Western and Eastern belief-systems), Omnipresence is an attribute of God that represents an unbound presence over all space and all time, and even across things such as concepts and ideas and more. As God would be present everywhere at once, on all systems, and be on all of space and all of time simultaneously, he would obviously have a sort of "ultimate level of speed".

Of course, in fiction, not every character has such a Godly level of Omnipresence and is common for Cosmics to only be Omnipresents in their universes or dimensions. Thus we can put them as "Omnipresent in ___" or "Nigh-Omnipresent".

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it is not the right time for revising all of our profiles that list the ability in any case.

 

[Sera_EX]

Certainly not. It's best we hold off until the striking strength revisions are done.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I do think that in the future we need to do some serious house-cleaning, I and many other Staff Members have found hundreds, possibly even thousands of absolutely atrocious old pages in our wiki. I would much prefer we have less pages, but the pages we do be clean and proper and reasonable, then an unmaneageble number of profiles that are awful.

ExecutorN0's wiki, for instance, has a rule that demands you to insert clips into the profile proving the stats, like Videos, Gifs or Scans, if it doesn't have any physical evidence of a rating the mods request the page maker to insert them and if he can't do that in a certain time frame, the page gets deleted.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I think that some housecleaning might be in order, but not to the excessive degrees that Gwynbleiddd suggested.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I don't remember what he said, could you explain?

 

[Sera_EX]

He basically wanted to purge the wiki of any pages without proper explanations that also had evidence (such as a calc).

 

[Antvasima]

He wanted us to delete all pages that do not have calculations or visual evidence, but that would likely mean wiping out considerably more than half of the wiki, and result in committing suicide as a community, as we would be unable to attract visitors from our competitors with our sheer number of profiles.

 

[Sera_EX]

Anyway, common sense should tell any admin or content mod that if they find bad pages to delete them or preferably make a thread regarding the matter, instead of letting the filth pile up. Outdated profiles from the old days need to be updated. Simple.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I agree.

Also, people have to understand that calculations are not the be-all, end-all of debating. There's plenty of characters' whose tiers are self evident. For instance if there's a character who can control electricity and the weather and can transform into a lightning bolt to fly / dash around and another character outruns him, then the speed of said second character can be ranked properly without any calc.

 

[DontTalk]

Well, in regards to the deletion thing I can just say again: Never delete a page without warning.

At minimum add delete to them and wait 24h before doing so.

Takes just 5 seconds more work and is a lot more fair in regards to the people that take care of the page.

 

[Sera_EX]

Well, in regards to the deletion thing I can just say again: Never delete a page without warning.

At minimum add delete to them and wait 24h before doing so.

Takes just 5 seconds more work and is a lot more fair in regards to the people that take care of the page.

Agreed. Unless it's a page full of spam/vandalism, obvious stuff.

 

[Kaltias]

Imo the best option is case-by-case basis. If there are reasons for the omnipresent not having a similar combat speed (Shin Budokai Janemba, for example) list it as "omnipresent, can fight at X speed" or something along this line.

Otherwise, just list it as omnipresent and assume that this omnipresence is > the fastest speed of its level of reality (infinite if 3D, immeasurable if higher dimensional)

As for the deletion, I think that it's always better to make a thread about it.

 

[Sera_EX]

Omnipresents are not physical beings to begin with. They are not bound to reactions or combat speed. An omnipresence is an abstraction. In the case of Eternity, any "considerably powerful" being that goes beyond his scale and influence possibly has greater range or some ridiculous hax (I mean who stops people from coming up with ridiculous nonsense in fiction? It's everywhere). So I can say for a fact that omnipresence is fine the way it is. Everything against it is thinking way too hard. Don't use hypothetical examples, use examples within fiction and we can review over it and see if it's recurring enough that a change must be made.

 

[Kaltias]

That's what I was trying to say actually. Janemba isn't a hypothetical example. We list it at "unknown" in its physical form, omnipresent in its energy form, and that's because it can't fight in this form.

What I was trying to say is that we should always keep in mind how that particular fiction treats it while listing the speed.

 

[Sera_EX]

I'm sorry Kaltias, I wasn't referring to you when I said "don't use hypothetical examples" just anyone in general.

 

[Kevyn_S._de_Andrade]

Anyway, omnipresence in space-time should be to continue qualifying speed. Someone on this state can't be "Peak Human". The very nature of speed is:

$ V = \frac{S}{t} $
Something that occupies all the "S" and "t" automatically has all the "V".

 

[Antvasima]

@Sera So should the Speed page description be adjusted?

 

[Sera_EX]

Yes, and Kevyn Souza is undoubtedly correct. If you'd like, I can adjust the omnipresent definition.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Feel free to do so.

 

[Sera_EX]

I have done so.

 

[Antvasima]

Thanks.

 

[FTW395]

Anyway, omnipresence in space-time should be to continue qualifying speed. Someone on this state can't be "Peak Human". The very nature of speed is:::$ V = \frac{S}{t} $
Something that occupies all the "S" and "t" automatically has all the "V".

Funny how such a simple example explained it better than everyone else here

 

[DontTalk]

Regarding this edit, I think we should scratch the formulas out of there.

One of our physics students can certainly give the official definition of speed, but for the 1D case I would already think that it is strictly Ôêås/Ôêåt or in general, as I learned it from a mathematical standpoint, if $ f: \mathbb{R} \rightarrow \mathbb{R}^3 $ is a continuous curve, which describes the position of an object in $ \mathbb{R}^3 $ dependend on its position in time (here described through $ \mathbb{R} $) the speed of the object at time t is the magnitude of the derivative of f at t.

What that means is, since this terms are well defined, that per definition nothing has multiple speeds. In general I would not bring the definitions of physics or math into this.

 

[ProspectX]

Funny how such a simple example explained it better than everyone else here

It's only natural, mathematics is the founding blueprint of the universe.

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalk Do you wish to edit the Speed page?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I think that would make things too convoluted. I prefer the way it is thanks to Sera and Kevyn.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[DontTalk]

@Matthew: Thing is there is no worse explanation for something, than one that is wrong per definition.

Omnipresence isn't a speed after the definition of speed in physics, just as immeasurable or Irrelevant (or technically even infinite, I believe) are neither.

That is no reason for it not to be on the speed page as, just as for immeasurable and irrelevant, it has direct consequences for the fighting capacity of a character in the same way a normal speed stat has, hence listing it on the speed scale makes a lot of sense.


Still explaining it to be a speed by the terms and formulas of physics is just wrong, if the exact same formulas, if taken correctly, tell you that they can not be used to get that result.

Instead just state something like:

"This is technically a state of being, rather than a speed, but has consequences for combat similar to that of a speed statistic. For practical comparisons, each case requires more detailed consideration."

And add some further explanation on that on the omnipresence page, by giving some examples for how it compares to speed like that a 3-D omnipresent being would win every race due to starting at the goal and that a 4-D omnipresent being would be able to react to everything before an opponent with normal speed due to experiencing present, past and future at once.

I think that gives an equally good explanation and is not abusing the fact that most people have no sense for rigours work with strict definitions.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"That is no reason for it not to be on the speed page as, just as for immeasurable and irrelevant, it has direct consequences for the fighting capacity of a character in the same way a normal speed stat has, hence listing it on the speed scale makes a lot of sense."

Actually, an Immeasurable character can be faster than another Immeasurable, and Irrelevants as well.

But I guess I am mostly fine with your suggestion. I would just be against cluttering pages with various mathematical and physics formulas. I prefer when explanations are simple and easily understandable.

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalk

I have copy-pasted your suggestion to the Speed page.

Do you need Omnipresence temporarily unlocked?

 

[DontTalk]

Well, my argument was exactly not to involve any physics or math formulas here, as they don't apply.

(I also didn't claim that there aren't different levels of immeasurable?)


To make a concrete formulation to be copied on the Omnipresence page, is the following ok?

"While Omnipresence is strictly speaking no speed, it is listed as a speed statistic due to having consequences on combat similarly to how a normal speed statistic would. For example a being the is omnipresent within 3-D space would win every race against an opponent with normal speed, due to already being in the goal at the time the race starts. An attack of an omnipresent being can also be undodgeable with normal speed if the able to attack every location in the universe at once. Alternatively its ability to start an attack from every place in the universe, including inside the target, makes it difficult to dodge.

A being that is not only omnipresent throughout space, but also time, would also be able to react to every attack done by a being with normal speed and be able to attack itself before any opponent with normal speed could do so. That is the case, because such a being would exist throughout and perceive all of time, experiencing past, presence and future at once, while not being bound to the normal flow of time itself."

 

[Antvasima]

@DonTalk

I do not know. I am extremely tired and cannot think straight. However, the sentence structures should preferably be adjusted for better flow and grammar, to be more easily understood.

 

[Sera_EX]

Wait, is something wrong with the sentencing? If so I do apologize, I write English to the best of my ability and sometimes it can be a tad bit off.

 

[VenomElite]

Her explanation + Kevyn Souza's formula is not wrong by any means. Where does that even come from?

@Sera

You're English is fine. Nearly perfect compared to the rest of us.

 

[DontTalk]

@Sera: Ant refered to my english, which is terrible.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I am alongside Ventus.

 

[DontTalk]

@Venom: The formula can not be used like that as I explained above.

To say it in a short way again:

1. Per strict definition of speed nothing has more than one speed. (speed is a well defined function onto the real numbers)

2. s is change in distance and t is change in time (hence it is strictly speaking Ôêås and Ôêåt, I believe) in that formula, so an omnipresent being actually doesn't have those, cause it doesn't really ever change its position due to already being everywhere (similar it doesn't change its position in time if 4-D).

Edit: It's essentially like saying that I move with any speed from one end of my arm to the other, because I occupy both ends at once with my body. That is not how that works.

 

[Sera_EX]

Ah. Okay.

 

[Sera_EX]

@Ven

DT already explained that the formula technically should'nt be used. I don't know what you mean aboit definition though.