Nyx (Persona) versus Urizen (Devil May Cry): An excuse for a Nyx Matchup

[DarkGrath]

After a crapton of thinking, I'm pretty sure this miiiiight actually be fair. I just generally wanted an excuse to make a match for Nyx, since I created their profile so recently, and this seems like a good bet! Hopefully not a stomp.

True Form of Nyx versus Post-Fruit Urizen (Both at Low 2-C)

Speed Equalised

Egg Momma:

Capcom's Weird Eye Fetish: 1 (Oliver de jesus)

Thunder McQueen: 1 (Thatsafloridathing)

 

[Schnee_One]

How does Urizen affect an Abstract

 

[DarkGrath]

1: Possibly through Non-Physical Interaction? All Persona users have Non-Physical Interaction as the explanation for how they can affect Abstract entities, but I'm not 100% sure if Non-Physical Interaction works the same way for every user.

2: Nyx is only partially an abstract, as mentioned on their profile. They are made up partially of information, but they do still have something of a physical form. I don't know for sure if Nyx could be killed without affecting their abstract nature, but given that their physical form can still be attacked and that it is where Nyx's main abilities come from, incap might be possible.

 

[Schnee_One]

Effecting an Intangible or Non corporal being isn't enough to effect an Abstract

 

[DarkGrath]

What ability would be considered a form of Abstract interaction then? If not Non-Physical Interaction, then that detail will need to be revised for the Persona verse.

 

[DMB_1]

For type 1, still Non-Physical Interaction, but to a higher degree.

But Nyx is a type 2, so the only problem would be Immortality.

 

[DarkGrath]

I'm not sure I understand. Does that mean Urizen could still affect Nyx?

 

[DMB_1]

Yes, from what I can understand. However, I don't know if he can kill her since her Immortality would still be reliant on a concept.

 

[DarkGrath]

Ah, I see what you mean.

Again, since almost all attacks seem to come directly from Nyx's physical form, I'm pretty sure Urizen could incap them.

Also, looking at the Abstract Existence page, going off of memory I'm not actually entirely certain if their abstract existence would be type 2 or 3. I'm going to check the original source.

EDIT: Took a look at it. I think it is type 2? Even so, incapping Nyx is not at all impossible, so it's still a valid match.

 

[DarkGrath]

Are there any opinions or votes?

 

[DarkGrath]

Just had it checked by Solacis. It's Type 3, and the profile has been edited in accordance with it.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Hmmm. Who has the AP advantage here? Urizen seems clearly outhaxed

 

[DarkGrath]

The scaling chain in Persona is currently under some level of debate, but it seems like the scaling chain up to Nyx is something along these lines.

True Nyx >>>>> Makoto Yuki w/ The Universe >= Nyx Avatar >> End-Game SEES = Erebus = Late-Game Makoto Yuki >/= Elizabeth > Lavenza >>> Pre-Qlipoth Joker and Phantom Thieves > Baseline Low 2-C.

I don't remember the exact scaling chain for Urizen, but I remember it was something along the lines of being able to one-shot people who one-shot people who stomp baseline Low 2-C's. I think Urizen has a notable, but not stompish AP advantage.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Hmmmm. If he can't oneshot Nyx he kind of get's ****** here. Cuz Nyx can just oneshot him with Death manip

 

[DarkGrath]

Nyx doesn't use Death Manip in-character. There are really only two moves Nyx uses in-character.

1: Creates an Avatar to fight with. This Avatar does have death manip, but it is ridiculously far weaker and would probably get one-shot by Urizen, or at least AP stomped.

2: Uses the "Death" attack. This attack, despite it's name, is not a form of Death Manip on it's own. It's just really good Soul and Mind Manip.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Hmmm. Well if Urizen starts to **** up Nyx, how likely is he to use his hax?

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Well, considering that Post Urizen is...eehhhh..."comparable" to Awakened Dante (considering how Dante was after their fight), the scalling chain is like this:


Post Fruit Urizen can stomp Normal Urizen (casually, going with Awakened Dante vs Normal Urizen)

Normal Urizen literally one shoted DMC5 DT Dante

DMC5 DT Dante can one shot DMC5 Base Dante (Based on Dante vs Abigail, he was comparable in base, but one shoted in DT)

DMC5 Base Dante is, at the very least, comparable to 4 and 2 Dante

DMC2 Dante can stomp Argosax, who's above Baseline Low 2-C, so hard that he didn't even remembered him in Before the Nightmare

 

[DarkGrath]

Hmm... it's unclear. This is kind of the problem with Nyx. They appeared for an extremely small amount of time in their true form at the end of Persona 3 before getting sealed away. We really don't know for sure what Nyx's "last breath" moves would be, but in general it seems like they'd probably still just rely on their Death attack. It works by attacking both the Soul and the Mind, and it nullifies an absolute crapton of resistances. I suppose Nyx might be willing to use their other hax in the event that Death was ineffective though.

 

[DarkGrath]

Do either of you have votes one way or the other?

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Well, Urizen's barrier might be able to protect him from most of Nyx hax, right ? (I don't know nothing about him lol)

 

[DarkGrath]

Urizen doesn't typically use his barrier in the Post-Fruit key, right? Theoretically though, yeah, I suppose the barrier could help. I could change the key to Pre-Fruit if that's a big factor here.

 

[Dienomite22]

This Urizen doesn't have the barrier (well doesn't use the barrier)

 

[DarkGrath]

Let me just sum up the most important points here.

- Nyx's Abstract Existence is based on Nyx being made of the Plumes of Dusk (essentially small fragments of Nyx's body) that exist in a state between matter and information, and carry properties of both. It's not entirely clear if Nyx could be killed without destroying their information, however they most certainly can be physically attacked and affected. Incapping is definitely possible as a win-con for Urizen, though just a quite difficult one, and killing is potentially possible.

- Nyx seemingly has the AP advantage, though I'm not 100% certain.

- Nyx isn't very likely to use all of their hax in-character, only some of it. They are willing to summon an avatar who definitely is willing to use hax, but the avatar is weak enough that Urizen would probably stomp it regardless.

- Nyx's go-to move is to spam Death, an attack that goes directly for the Soul (being a form of Soul Manip) that nullifies all kinds of forcefields, reflection, or resistances, within reason (in general it just nullifies practically everything you could use to defend against it). It's powerful enough to nearly one-shot characters below Nyx with really good resistance to Soul Manip, but Urizen's resistance + durability should be good enough to survive at least a few hits from Death.

- Nyx's Large Size might play a factor here, since it might be a bit more difficult to incap them. Not entirely sure.

In summary, Nyx could reasonably kill Urizen with Death, though Urizen's resistance to Soul Manip means that it would be difficult. Urizen can only definitively win through incap, though the ability to physically affect Nyx means that killing should still be possible. This should still be a fair match given Urizen having resistances and abilities that cover up Nyx's main moves + Nyx generally not using their versatile hax in character, instead relying purely on one or two powerful moves. This match comes down to whether Nyx will eventually win through hax or spamming Death, or if Urizen will be able to incap.

Not going to vote myself, mind you, since I'm the OP and it's generally pretty rude for the OP to vote (at least first). But personally, I think that Nyx seems to have the edge here. It is quite likely that Urizen would completely stomp Nyx's Avatar, but it's still got hax like Death Manip that could feasibly one-shot Urizen (though only if it actually had the chance to). Also, Nyx being the Moon and having Large Size due to it means that attacking it would be a bit tricky for Urizen, and incapping it would be more difficult. I'm still pretty confident that Urizen could kill Nyx instead of incapping them, but since I'm not 100% sure it generally decreases the chance that Urizen would win.

Again, still not voting. I just generally do this with Versus Matches I make to give people entering the thread an idea of all the different considerations, along with offering my two-cents on the result.

 

[DarkGrath]

Can I get, uhh... BUMP?

 

[ShivaShakti]

''Lesbian Noises''

 

[Thatsafloridathing]

Hmmm... What exactly are "lesbian noises"?

 

[DarkGrath]

don't mind her, her natural habitat is just any thread I'm involved with. check my message wall for proof

 

[Thatsafloridathing]

Alrighty then

 

[DarkGrath]

By the way, do you yet have a vote for the match?

 

[Thatsafloridathing]

I might have to go inconclusive on this one, Nyx is way too big to incapacitate but her death hax might not work due to Urizen's resistance to soul manipulation.

 

[DarkGrath]

Gotcha. I'll add your vote, but just as a side note, the Death attack nearly one-shot a character with resistance to soul manip. I don't think their resistance was quite as good as Urizen's, but it's worth mentioning.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

I think that the manipulation vibrations would be useful to damage nyx (can create omnidirectional shock waves) but the problem is speed is not equal would take nyx to victory with Death manipulation to my voto is Nyx

 

[DarkGrath]

My bad, I meant to equalise speed. I'll do that now.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

ok, then urizen breaks through vibrations.

 

[DarkGrath]

Could you elaborate? I do know of the omnidirectional shock waves he has, but they aren't particularly destructive.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Could you elaborate? I do know of the omnidirectional shock waves he has, but they aren't particularly destructive.

he thought he had a nearby Ap to be able to inflict damage on Dante at his peak

 

[DarkGrath]

Well, yeah, but the shockwave itself certainly doesn't harm Dante. It just pushes him back.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Well, that makes sense, then we have not moved sincerely. I go to Urizen for its AP advantage since the speed is the same, it would not be bombed by nyx.

 

[DarkGrath]

You're voting for Urizen?

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Yes