Novel Kars vs Iihiko

[Dienomite22]

@Iapitus The Impaler

I think he's talking about how Kars changed the rule of needing an outside person to use Bite the Dust

 

[DragonEmperor23]

@Iapitus The Impaler
I think he's talking about how Kars changed the rule of needing an outside person to use Bite the Dust

^ this is indeed what I am talking about. Kira needed Hayato, a non stand user, to be able to use Bites The Dust.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Being the ultimate lifeform is what gives the Understanding ability.
"Kars's D4C only creates universes because that was a theory of an alternate interpretation of the ability"

What do you mean by this? Are you saying that Funny could create universes if he wanted to?

I mean that the reason he could time travel is that he was repeatedly using it on himself, with him reforming each time.

In Jorge Joestar, if you accept that D4C Ultimate can create universes, then D4C can as well. Yes.

 

[TacticalNuke002]

Why is Kars without his Stands anyway?

 

[Dienomite22]

@SchroKatze

Seen it, doesn't change or counter what I said, using a power by percentage better than someone doesn't mean that power gains new abilties or change the rules of it for the better on a fundamental level unlike Kars's copying which does both.

 

[Dienomite22]

@Iapitus The Impaler

Original Killer Queen required a third party to use BtD which was it's best ability, Kars's copying changed that rule and allowed him to use it on himself, could Medaka's the End do this?

 

[TacticalNuke002]

Also, Kars' improvement of copied abilities goes beyond just making the ability more potent. He can literally change the mechanism of an ability to suit himself and make its usage more seamless and more convenient in battle. D4CU became passive. BtD became a ton more broken due to having its limitations removed. The World Ultimate got an hour of time stopping, while the original could only do it for 9 seconds at best (that's a 39900% improvement btw).

 

[Agnaa]

Why does being able to change the way an ability works mean he'll be able to copy an ability that someone else couldn't?

 

[Dienomite22]

I did ask how did the End not work on lihiko but the disussion got off topic, but to answer your question probably potency or level of copying can dictate wether or not lihiko can counter it? Like can lihiko counter copying on a 2-C level or something like that. I don't know if that's how that works but who knows.

 

[TacticalNuke002]

Maybe because its better copying, plus someone mentioned that Medaka was able to copy something from Iihiko.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Why is Kars without his Stands anyway?

I didn't want the thread to get filled with NLF about MIH vs Subjective Immunity

 

[TacticalNuke002]

Why not give him the rest?

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Edited it once more. Also, I now see that Queen is spelled wrong in the keys section at the bottom of the page and I am iratus

 

[Dienomite22]

(stands are introduced) time for me to take a step back and watch the thread now.

 

[TacticalNuke002]

He time stops and tries to understand Irreversible Destruction for an hour?

 

[Dienomite22]

@TacticalNuke002

Kars also has (essentially) infinite retries with Killer Queen

Was Irreversible Destuction or Subjective Immunity ever shown to work in stopped time?

 

[TacticalNuke002]

I think the immunity works because he won't even know if someone attacks him in stopped time.

 

[Agnaa]

Maybe because its better copying, plus someone mentioned that Medaka was able to copy something from Iihiko.

"Slightly better" does not mean "can overcome resistances".

Someone who resists 10 second timestop wouldn't be timestopped by someone who has infinite timestop until that first 10 seconds has passed.

Medaka hasn't copied anything from Iihiko, but the reasons for why are a tad complicated.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Kars doesn't need to use an ability he learns of you know. He can just know it and work around it.

 

[Paul_Frank]

So kars tries to understand and gets killed

Or kars time stops, tries to understand, fails, tries to attack Iihiko who then doesn't recognize it because he's time stopped, time stop ends and Iihiko kills him

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Killer Queen resets and Kars tries again.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Iihiko doesn't recognize killer queen using btd so it does nothing

Could Iihiko or interact with stands if he could he could just 1 shot Killer Queen too but I'm pretty sure he can't sadly

If not then this process just repeats forever so it would be incon

 

[TriforcePower1]

If Kars has all stands (outside of MiH ultimate), he basically has infinite tries with D4CU and BtD. Probably inconclusive as I don't think he has ways to kill Iihiko.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Ok since revisions and matches on Rakudai's side have winded down a bit i can participate here.

Yes Kars has no way to do anything to Iihiko, but how does the infinite retry work?

 

[Paul_Frank]

When kars dies either killer queen uses btd or d4cu grabs another kars

The first one reminds time and the second one just gets another kars and gives him all the knowledge and stands of the previous kars

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Nvm i read a bit on it. Bites the dust won't be able to do anything as everything Iihiko does is permanent, not only can't bite the dust rewind back someone like Iihiko (resistances and recognition call it a day), but it cannot do anything to Kars as the damage is permanent.

Abou D4C, im not sure. There is only so many times it can work before Iihiko just nukes the place.

 

[TriforcePower1]

Bites the dust rewinds time itself.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Nvm i read a bit on it. Bites the dust won't be able to do anything as everything Iihiko does is permanent, not only can't bite the dust rewind back someone like Iihiko (resistances and recognition call it a day), but it cannot do anything to Kars as the damage is permanent.

@Triforce ^^

 

[TriforcePower1]

Permanent =/= Can't rewind time to before it happened though

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Permanent =/= Can't rewind time to before it happened though

There are several problems.

1. If it rewinds time like that it will incap Kars. Match starts, Iihiko nukes. BtD rewinds 1 seconds earlier. Then Kars gets "revved", 1 sec later, kars dies again without Iihiko does anything. As i said they "are permanent". If you rewind back, you're just going into the past, but as you reach the present you'll still suffer from those. Nursery Rhyme is similar (age regression), but as they reach the same age they will get the same damage back. At that point in time Kars "gets damaged by Iihiko", that cannot change, that's the idea of Irreversible Destruction.

2. It still cannot rewind Iihiko. If it cannot rewind Iihiko it's effectively useless.

 

[TacticalNuke002]

Why can't it rewind Iihiko? I don't see Type 2 Acausality.

 

[Paul_Frank]

He wont recognize it

 

[DMB_1]

Bites the Dust has also Fate Manipulation. If Kars' BtD also makes people explode much like Kira's, then Ilihiko will just explode anyways.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Kars's BtD is the better version of Kira's BtD.

 

[DMB_1]

Why can't it rewind Iihiko? I don't see Type 2 Acausality.

Neither Resistance to FAte Manipulation or Transmutation, which is what you really need to counter BtD.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Iihiko's whole thing is if he doesn't recognize something it won't work

He has resisted causality based EE, damage transfer and Scar Dead through it

 

[DMB_1]

Iihiko's whole thing is if he doesn't recognize something it won't work

A further explaination of this? Is it powernull or something?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Why can't it rewind Iihiko? I don't see Type 2 Acausality.

Neither Resistance to FAte Manipulation or Transmutation, which is what you really need to counter BtD.

Uhm...im sorry what?

Resistance to Causality Manipulation, Heat Manipulation, Electricity Manipulation, Memory Manipulation, Power Nullification, Biological Manipulation, Mind Manipulation, Elemental Manipulation, Magic, Existence Erasure, Fate Manipulation, Reality Warping, Time Manipulation,

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Iihiko's whole thing is if he doesn't recognize something it won't work

A further explaination of this? Is it powernull or something?

Not exactly. He becomes immune to anything he doesn't recognize (if he doesn't recognize it as an attack it won't be an attack). That's the idea (on a 3D level ofc). So it's not that the powers don't activate, it's just that they won't work on him.

 

[Paul_Frank]

It's subjective immunity

If he doesn't recognize something as an attack it has no effect additionally if he has seen something before even if he rocgnizes it it wont work

For instance he resisted every single one of Ajimu's skills because he saw them before and then one shotted her

He was kicked in the face simply said mosquitoes got bigger and was unfazed because he didn't recognize it as an attack

He also got impaled with multiple swords and shocked with electricity and didn't recognize them as attacks but instead as acupuncture and electroshock therapy respectively and thus wasn't affected