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I disagree with possibly 1-C. There's nothing to indicate that. For me it's either downgrade him to 2-C (baseline super forms), keep him at 1-C or downgrade to low 1-C via Shuffle upscaling.
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Nothing, Nowhere, Not At All - Metal Overlord Generations
- Thread starter ShakeResounding
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Just two things:
1. Cuz of the recent CRT, super forms no longer have baseline immeasurable lifting strength, so Adventure DD should be multi-stellar LS.
2. I don’t think it’s ever said Devil Doom warped the entirety of WS (and it’s not really consistent with Sonic’s side where white space never turns red at any point, despite both halves being within running distance of each other)
1. Cuz of the recent CRT, super forms no longer have baseline immeasurable lifting strength, so Adventure DD should be multi-stellar LS.
2. I don’t think it’s ever said Devil Doom warped the entirety of WS (and it’s not really consistent with Sonic’s side where white space never turns red at any point, despite both halves being within running distance of each other)
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It was only said that Black Doom prevented the temporal anomaly from being cured (aka, that space and time could be restored)
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We don't know where Sonic was when Doom Space happened. He could've been fighting Egg Dragoon and missed all of it.
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Very convenient.
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All the more reason we need it.
I already made the edit after said recent CRT.
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The profiles look alright, though for Black Arms, their first tabber in P&A says Extraordinary Perception that links to Extrasensory Perception, I assume the Extraordinary part is a error? Also their Adventure Key P&A has Immortality Type 4 and all the words after bolded.
As for Metal Overlord, I don't agree with the full downgrade, at least going by the comments I read on the thread. I think Low 1-C suggestion works honestly but I can't contribute more to the overall Shadow debate that was happening regarding scaling.
As for Metal Overlord, I don't agree with the full downgrade, at least going by the comments I read on the thread. I think Low 1-C suggestion works honestly but I can't contribute more to the overall Shadow debate that was happening regarding scaling.
ShakeResounding
He/Him- 9,044
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- Thread starter
- #209
Fixed and fixed!
I will note in the OP that you tentatively agree with the idea of Low 1-C Metal Overlord, and agree with everything else beyond your corrections.
Feel free to let me know if I didn't reflect your vote well.
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@ShakeResounding Hey Shake, shouldn't Super Shadow have resistance to Cyber Corruption listed on his profile? Sonic's Cyber Corruption was halted whenever he went Super in Frontiers, so shouldn't the same thing apply to anyone who can go Super like Shadow?
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Please discard this comment, I'm an idiot and didn't realize that it's already listed on his profile. I was looking at your blog so I got confused for a moment there
GlaceonGamez471
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Shadow's current page has it for his Super key, I'm assuming what's in the sandbox took an older version of the page as a base
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Idk, I get why the Low 1-C argument exists, but Shadow fighting Metal Overlord is just a big anti-feat to me. Like, considering the implications of this, we'd have Low 1-C Incomplete Doom Shadow, and then Low 1-C Mephiles as well. Arguably Low 1-C for Modern Biolizard, which Sonic also fights in 3DS Gens so like...
ShakeResounding
He/Him- 9,044
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- #214
This is my stance as well.
If we have 2 Doom Powers Shadow = Low 1-C, and individuals such as Mephiles give him a hard time after then, then the time travel aspect of the story REALLY begins to bite us in the ass.
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Also, if merely having the Doom Powers makes Shadow that strong in base, he fights Sonic after Metal Overlord so uh... Yeah...
I also don't see why we're just ignoring what Shadow says to Metal Overlord about Sonic???
I also don't see why we're just ignoring what Shadow says to Metal Overlord about Sonic???
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3 Doom Powers, not overall
Mephiles will have its own discussion later, as even currently his rating of 2-C via scalling to a much stronger Shadow makes no sense, at worst it is an outlier to Mephiles, altho i see enough evidence for him to simply have copied Shadow again
No, Shadow didn't had as many Doom Powers against Biolizard, he doesn't scale to the Low 1-C version of Shadow here
Remember, each Doom Power made him stronger, so scalling bosses that Shadow fought with less Doom Powers to those with he fought with more doesn't work
So this is a non issue here
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with Doom Powers, not in Base, also:
You ignoring how Shadow said he trew the fight for "not being on equal terms", as said in the OP you agreed earlier. And explained before in this thread by numerous people is... weird
Like, i get if you didn't agreed, but acting as if that wasn't covered is really weird
I explained why, everyone explained why, cause it is a non spechiphic wording that can be argued to mean other things than power, which is surely what this is since Shadow literally SAW Metal reaching and
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The Incomplete Shadow that fought Bio, is not the same that fought MO. He gets progressively stronger, how much, we do not know. But he does, and because he does, he can't really be used both for, or against it, he's an unkown x-factor.
Regardless, Shadow is a nonfactor, the only real caveat is the mephiles that Shadow fought would scale ig.
But Bio isn't a factor here, nor does that really take away from the feat/scaling/whatever. If anything, it'd be Shadow scaling that would be an outlier, not Metal being what he is, that's the problem if you really, really, really, wanna go down that route.
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We don't tho? Shake, Shadow has 3, not 2, against Metal Overlord
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He actively jobbed there. Opting not to use his newfound stuff. Sonic Vs. Shadow is a non-factor, one the very game acknowledges and handwaves as Shadow essentially letting himself get beat.
We aren't, it's vague, is it talking base, in general, peak? Of course Sonic's best would be impossible for MO to breach at that time, there's a whole infinity difference
ShakeResounding
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Apologies, that was me misremembering. Also it was rhetorical language because atm the Doom Powers aren't specifically treated as an amp on the page YET
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Well genuinely speaking this is just a bad argument. It's so self-evident what's meant by this and I really have to question why we're trying to take it as anything else. Metal Overlord is simply not on Gens Base Sonic's level. Full stop.
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I see an "higher with Doom Powers" on your sandbox tho
ShakeResounding
He/Him- 9,044
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The statement isn't "you are not on hos level" it is "you'll never reach his level" which would completely idiotic for Shadow to say if he was meaning power here, as Metal has FACTUALLY reached and surpassed Sonic's power numerous times, and Shadow knows this full well
Plus, at worst, as Chariot says, this would be an outlier for Base Sonic, as he has no consistent scalling to tier 1 and would be factually inferior to the Shadow MO scales to here. As Base Shadow and Base Sonic are stilm treated as equals in Gens
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Shadow is talking about here and now to the Metal Overlord he currently sees. What's happened before genuinely doesn't matter
"Outlier" is a cop-out solution to a scaling chain that just doesn't make sense in-verse. There's a very clear solution to go with, even if some may not personally like it
ShakeResounding
He/Him- 9,044
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Also, related basically entirely to Metal Overlord.
My primary concern with updating Metal Overlord to Low 1-C is that people may be able to argue what scales to such a thing as arbitrary. For example; when it's stated the Egg Dragoon is the pinnacle of mad science, or when Dr. Eggman implies the Nega-Wisp Armor is superior to the Egg Dragoon, where is the line drawn and how can we distinguish what scales to Tier 1? And I'm not saying a way can't be found, I'm just saying it seems we're looking at 1 thing and not seeing where the rest of the dominoes fall.
If this has been addressed prior then forgive me, I lost track of the thread a bit between pages 3-5.
My primary concern with updating Metal Overlord to Low 1-C is that people may be able to argue what scales to such a thing as arbitrary. For example; when it's stated the Egg Dragoon is the pinnacle of mad science, or when Dr. Eggman implies the Nega-Wisp Armor is superior to the Egg Dragoon, where is the line drawn and how can we distinguish what scales to Tier 1? And I'm not saying a way can't be found, I'm just saying it seems we're looking at 1 thing and not seeing where the rest of the dominoes fall.
If this has been addressed prior then forgive me, I lost track of the thread a bit between pages 3-5.
Ghengiroo115
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Just want to say that the Generations bosses don’t have to scale to Sonic or Shadow for the plot to make sense, just the other way around. We don’t really know how most fights canonically went, just that the hero wins, so unless there’s evidence for the boss to scale to the hero outside of gameplay (e.g Shadow obviously scaling to Sonic) they shouldn’t scale. Remember that Classic Sonic is 2-C here yet his bosses are all High 5-A characters completely unchanged from their original selves.
All that to say that Mephiles is a non-factor unless there’s evidence outside of gameplay that he’s relative to Shadow, in which case then it becomes tricky (I don’t remember there being any such evidence though, aside from the “he copies Shadow” argument which would mean it was a stronger Mephiles fighting Shadow).
All that to say that Mephiles is a non-factor unless there’s evidence outside of gameplay that he’s relative to Shadow, in which case then it becomes tricky (I don’t remember there being any such evidence though, aside from the “he copies Shadow” argument which would mean it was a stronger Mephiles fighting Shadow).
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@LordGriffin1000 Metal Overlord scaling to Low 1-C causes multiple problems:
- Shadow after this fight goes on to fight Sonic. Keeping in mind that against Metal Overlord, he doesn't use any of his Doom Powers to directly harm Metal Overlord (only Doom Surf for traversal and Doom Spear to stop one attack) and he also uses no Doom Powers against Sonic, the scenarios are equivalent. If the argument against this is that merely having the Doom Powers amps Shadow, then that's also a problem because that results in Low 1-C Base Sonic, which is just wrong.
- Keeping in line with this, Shadow even says to Metal Overlord that if this is all he can do, he'll never reach Sonic's level. There's no reason to assume this is referring to Super Sonic or anything like that, because this is about Metal Sonic trying to be "the true Sonic," not the true Super Sonic or whatever. And as I just mentioned to Omega, the fact that Sonic has been surpassed by Metal Sonic prior to this does not mean anything, because Shadow is referring to here and now to the Metal Overlord he currently sees.
- This also causes potential ramifications for Mephiles, who would end up scaling to Low 1-C without any proper evidence. Even a new key relies on the assumption of "he copied Shadow again" which is just demonstrably false. The only potential thing that could support something for Mephiles is him using abilities without Emeralds that he initially required Emeralds to use, in which case this can be discarded, but the other two points should be enough for there to be a noticeable problem imo
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No? The statement is talking how he will "never", aka even in the future, reach Sonic's level
It is NOT talking about the here and now, it is specifically talking about Metal IN GENERAL, it never specifies "the one of now will never reach his level, but the future one will" or anything like that, you are giving a context the statement doesn't have
Base Shadow = Base Sonic, 3 Doom Powers Shadow ~ Metal Overlord, Base Sonic > Metal Overlord ~ 3 Doom Powers Shadow > Base Shadow = Base Sonic
Yeah, it DOESN'T make sense in verse, and gets circular, hence why it is an outlier for Base Sonic to begin with
Yeah... i say the same to you
ShakeResounding
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I can't remember something for one way or the other. I'll check when I have the time. A Low 1-C having a "boss battle" against a High 3-A doesn't seem too logical personally, I think that would imply scaling in some sense that he's distinguished from fodder
If your suggestion is correct, then I would concede that Mephiles could remain High 3-A and it not be contradictory since he still loses. The issue is if there's dialogue implying otherwise as you said. However I will stop mentioning Mephiles
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You think Shadow can predict the future??? He's basing this on the power Metal Overlord is exhibiting, so unless Shadow can magically determine his future power, your argument makes no sense here
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Tbh Shadow having to dodge out of the way of the sword at the start is pretty telling that it was threatening enough to him
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He uses Doom Surf to harm Metal Overlord by reflecting the attacks, also they make him more powerful IN GENERAL and he litetally said he let himself lose to Sonic, he trew on purpose, as me and Chariot have been saying, the Sonic fight is a non-factor, as Shadow let himself lose on purpose
No, Shadow says "you will never" reach his "level", which is not only vague to say it means power, but also he talks using a term that is INTRISINC in talking about Metal in the future too, "never" includes the future, explicitly so
Also this creates a great circular scalling as i detailed above, so it would be discarded by principle
Contrary to him being 2-C without proper evidence as well? Again, Mephiles creates problems even if we keep 2-C, he should be its own thread to solve
Which is a problem regardless as i said, since he was High 3-A in 06, unless you alsp wants to downgrade the Base cast to bellow tier 2
Also it isn't demonstrably false as nothing says he didn't, and i have evidence he did, but again, should be its own thread
Which again, is a problem regardless of tier 1 or not
It is very desingenuous to frame it as a problem only for tier 1 scalling
And i really hope he doesn't since these are not good counters, and have been addressed before
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Sonic's fight with Shadow has no effect on scaling. It's just a question of if Metal Overlord should even be rated as 1-C to begin with
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I don't think i follow? Shake, Eggman's statements of his "mosy powerful science" and stuff would only apply to stuff he made by himself, which he has no tier 1 stuff on
Also MO's case is not relatef at all to this. As it is metely a "a < b < c = a < c" situation with direct comparisons and statements and zero problems, at that point in time, Eggman didn't even do anything above tier 2, so i really don't get the problem here
Ghengiroo115
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The notion of “Shadow didn’t use his Doom Powers to hurt Metal” isn’t true, but I do remember saying something sorta like this in the General thread some time ago. Nothing in the game states that Shadow consciously activates his Doom Power amps or anything, just the abilities they grant him. In fact it’s more likely he doesn’t, as the black aura that appears when he uses them doesn’t show up most of the time he fights and is obviously using those amps.
It is a bit tricky when it comes to Sonic as it means we’re basically saying Sonic is equal to post-Doom Morph Shadow and stronger than base Shadow which is silly, however it technically does make sense. Remember original Gens is from the era where Sonic was considered the only guy that could do anything useful, so Shadow being normally weaker fits in line with that portrayal even if it’s dumb. E-123 Omega’s statement about them being equal also comes immediately after that fight so it could technically refer to 4DP Shadow.
Again I think it’s very silly meta-wise for base Shadow to ever not be relative to Sonic, but it’s not contradictory and fits with 2010 Sega’s anti-friends agenda.
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My dude, he LIVED THE FUTURE, he KNOWS WHAT METAL WILL BECOME, what are you on about? He is including the future cause he LITERALLY SAW IT, from Metal's perspective at least, current Shadow's present = his future
Have you forgotten this game is all about time travel?
Magically? My dude, he literally SAW IT as he LIVED Metal Overlord's future fights, he SAW Metal Sonix matching Sonic in the games after Heroes
What are you even on about? This isn't past Shadow, this is current day Shadow, the one who is in the future from MO's perspective? Hello?
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No as he didn't even knew who Mephiles was or what he could do
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This isn’t true. Gens Classic isn’t 2-C.
I also great dislike dismissing the Sonic fight as if Shadow can just "turn off" his Doom Amp as if it was a transformation. The Doom Powers became part of his base biology. Unlike Doom Wing he can't "turn them off" wherever he wants. He can just chose to not use them (still keeping the amps).
(BTW Shadow explicitly used the Doom Aura against Mephiles in the end).
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