Nonexistent Physiology: Updating Characters to the New Types

[Theglassman12]

Alright, he linked UEG as an example and assumed he was arguing she'd scale. Apologize for the confusion.

 

[Elizhaa]

No problem.

---

Edit: @DontTalkDT what do you think about the recent discussions on Yogiri's case?

 

[Elizhaa]

@DontTalkDT what do you think about the recent discussions on Yogiri's case?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Alright, I wanted to pick up this thread after my exams but then other things on here took priority and then more stuff came to that and it kept getting pushed back...
Anyways, I'm gonna get this going again. Anyone that still wants a reply from me kindly remind me what it is about.

@DontTalkDT what do you think about the recent discussions on Yogiri's case?

Can I see the quotes? You posted some for Yogiri earlier in the thread, but if I understand correctly you are suggesting additional context, yes?

 

[Elizhaa]

From Yogiri's page:
Nonexistent Physiology (Type 2. Embodies and represents the nonexistence from which all of existence and nonexistence comes back to at their ends/deaths, with all of creation being entirely conceptual in the literal sense.[24][25][17][54][55][56][57])
There is this scan also where the gods' statements take place.
There is the context that gods like UEG can back from conceptual erasure which also erased other aspects like souls, etc.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Not sure if the scans about concepts actually qualify for concept manip, but that aside.
So the idea is that his nothingness is supposed to be more nothing than the UEG's nothingness, so he should scale to her, right?
And she should have Nature Type 2 due to being conceptually erased?
Generally, conceptual nonexistence alone doesn't justify Nature Type 2. Nothingness/nonexistence itself has to be the thing that was (conceptually) erased.
Now, Yogiri is a higher state of nonexistence than what UEG can tank, but that could likewise be a state of regular nothingness where even what remains of the UEG doesn't exist.

Yogiri should scale to at least UEG's level of nothingness, though, so things like the conceptual and spritual aspects should be fine.

 

[Elizhaa]

Yogiri should scale to at least UEG's level of nothingness, though, so things like the conceptual and spritual aspects should be fine.

Gods can still regenerate from other states like causality erasure and complete erasure (Volume 7 Chapter 22; Volume 8 Chapter 14); I do think it would include history, plot, and information (information being related to the concept of heavenly record) nature given it exist in the verse.

So the idea is that his nothingness is supposed to be more nothing than the UEG's nothingness, so he should scale to her, right?

I think it would be upscaling.

And she should have Nature Type 2 due to being conceptually erased?
Generally, conceptual nonexistence alone doesn't justify Nature Type 2. Nothingness/nonexistence itself has to be the thing that was (conceptually) erased.

She could likely have Nature Type 1.

Now, Yogiri is a higher state of nonexistence than what UEG can tank, but that could likewise be a state of regular nothingness where even what remains of the UEG doesn't exist.

I thought Yogiri's state seems to match the definition of Nature Type 2 especially since it would nonexistent even to gods:

• Idealistic Nonexistence: The character doesn't exist in a sense further beyond conventional nonexistence. In terms of binary, this would be something that is neither 1 nor 0, where 1 is existence and 0 is nonexistence. Characters of this type often have some low degree of Transduality due to their lack of binary existence. Characters of this type have to behave at least as nonexistent as those with Material Nonexistence, but might display even further showings such as preceding or opposing existence.

Isn't nature type 2 feasible for this case?

 

[Antoniofer]

Anyways, I'm gonna get this going again. Anyone that still wants a reply from me kindly remind me what it is about.

Hl3 made a comment about the VK and Nameless NEP here; if you still want to look into it. Ask me if you have any doubt.

 

[StekFence]

So like, let’s say I have a rock that’s stated to not exist. could I say the rock lacks mind or soul for an aspect?

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

So, I want to update Mundus from the other timeline to the new standards but there are a lot of things to go over as the verse is a little bit way too specific about its stuff.

For prior context this version of Mundus is from an alternative timeline, he is described as an empty void and not even Dante (who can see, sense, taste and whatever else you want with souls) is completely unaware of what Mundus is and didn't know the void itself was Mundus until the fight started.

Now this is were it gets tricky so I will make a summary of verse terms here:

Spoiler

First of all Names

A Demon's name is something special, more important than other verses. We are told that To them a name is "truth"... more than those forms they take, it is said that the name of a demon is closer to its true substance, like heirs to a family they model themselves after the meaning of the name but this is only from the research Arkham has gathered, in reality the name and its significance is much more complex and deeper than that.

In reality the power of a name is much more, from the moment demons come into existence the names are the most sacred thing to them, they not only represent power but also the very concept of their own existence, basic principles that predate the creation of even the creation of the demon world itself.

A Demon's soul

As you probably saw in the scan above, the name which is the most sacred thing for a demon as it is their very concept is nothing but a part of their souls. It manifests itself as part of the soul that forms them, and their dark hearts.

But there is more to the souls.

Souls are "objects" that hold many mysteries that neither Humans or Demons understand but that every soul has. The soul as we know now thanks to Peak of Combat is a basic nine-dimensional form, generally speaking, it originates from and returns to a higher dimension beyond the Eightfold Path. But that's not all as it contains the mind and memory, but also contains all the information of the body and its ancestors since ancient times.

This goes in line with what Arkham told us, if you recall, as the name (which demons mold themselves after) is nothing but just a part of the souls demons have.

In short a soul in Devil May Cry contains every aspect of existence for Demons, from minds to information and even their concept.

As I said before, Dante who can easily see and notice/sense/feel all of this didn't know Mundus was the void itself and took him a while to realize it, he didn't even know how to fight it, he was just doing it.

But there is more, if you read the explanation above you know 2 important details: 1) names are their concepts 2) Sparda and those that share his blood are able to change, manipulate, destroy and restore said names (and this is a very specific ability that very few demons have).

This is relevant because this version of Mundus doesn't have a name, all through the side adventure he is always called "The King of the Underworld". This changes the moment Dante names him. After Dante calls his name it is used by the side characters in the alternative timeline. (I can give scans for this if requested, I didn't post any cuz there are a lot and my PC can't handle it)

Referring to the scans of the manga above, they can grant names very easily, it doesn't need them to do something specific beyond either naming them directly or letting them get a name by themselves.


With all this I would say Mundus qualifies for "at least Nature Type 1, Aspect Type 1, 2, 3 & 4

I have this and its kinda verse specific along with some more scans and quotes I could probably add.

 

[DontTalkDT]

So like, let’s say I have a rock that’s stated to not exist. could I say the rock lacks mind or soul for an aspect?

That rock would have to also physically not exist, so would it even be a rock?

Gods can still regenerate from other states like causality erasure and complete erasure (Volume 7 Chapter 22; Volume 8 Chapter 14); I do think it would include history, plot, and information (information being related to the concept of heavenly record) nature given it exist in the verse.

I guess Aspect Type 1, 2 and 4 are fine based on this (and 5 depending on how you wish to justify it). I would guess he probably has 3 as well, although strictly speaking a feat has to be presented for that.

I thought Togiri's state seems to match the definition of Nature Type 2 especially since it would nonexistent even to gods:

• Idealistic Nonexistence: The character doesn't exist in a sense further beyond conventional nonexistence. In terms of binary, this would be something that is neither 1 nor 0, where 1 is existence and 0 is nonexistence. Characters of this type often have some low degree of Transduality due to their lack of binary existence. Characters of this type have to behave at least as nonexistent as those with Material Nonexistence, but might display even further showings such as preceding or opposing existence.

Isn't nature type 2 feasible for this case?

Eh, Type 2 isn't better nonexistence; it's transdual nonexistence. So I don't think being nonexistent to beings that already have a level of nonexistence would qualify.

I have this and its kinda verse specific along with some more scans and quotes I could probably add.

Information have to be information in the Type 2 sense. What I read sounds more like information in the Type 1 sense.

Unless I missed something the quote you showed didn't show Dante initially not recognizing Mundus. In general, I think it's somewhat assumptive to assume that just because Dante can't see something it doesn't exist. It can just as likely be a case stealth or resistance to analysis. It was even said that Dante did actually manage to see something in the void and that it was not empty, no?

In fact, is there evidence towards that creature being incorporeal?

What the name calling thing is concerned... it is pure conjecture with little to support it. With the only evidence being that Dante, who could create a name, being the first to say his name, I think there isn't enough evidence to assume that at all.

Apologies for not responding. I was never notified that I was quoted for some reason.

Here's some evidence:

Now, Anima makes two distinctions for things that are hard to hit/damage in-game. One type is those made of "energy", which is a very misleading term but generally describes things that are still physically existent but are very hard to actually damage. Beings made of fire are part of this category. The other type is "spectral" beings, which are usually spiritual in nature and thus exist in the abstract. This is the description for one of the Etrien Gnosos' abilities. Notice a problem? It's considered as hard to hit as fire despite just objectively not existing in a spiritual manner, even being described as such in the description for that ability.

My point overall is that Anima has a severe and jarring game-play lore disconnect, and thus being able to punch people described as nonexistent is not necessarily evidence against them not existing. Again, it's similar to how in D&D you can literally beat emotions to death with your bare hands, or even a commoner's hands if you want to really push it to the extreme. The only discouraging factor in D&D's case is that you do less damage.

As you said, Body of Emptiness is too vague.

The ability "one with nothing" also explicitly states that the character needs to have a head and some organs left. That definitely contradicts full nonexistence for that ability. And that's stated before the game mechanics are explained.

Form with Emptiness is temporary. One could argue that is a level of nonexistence (would have to reread earlier explanations on the details... it's been a while), but it's just a temporary state i.e. it's high-grade intangibility, not a physiology.

I was already fine with Aspect Type 1 and 2 for Etrien Gnosos in the initial debate, I believe. If you mean nature Type 2, then conceptual nonexistence alone doesn't grant it.

What game mechanics are concerned: They are the descriptions of what is possible in the verse. They are, essentially, where actual feats come from if someone plays the game. Not saying they can't be overruled, but you gonna need way better evidence contradicting them. Especially if your source on the abilities is the explanation of the game mechanics. It's like having a video game where opponents can be killed by hitting them with swords. If you want to convince people that the opponents can't actually be killed with swords, you will need good material.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

I should probably make a full crt for this since it is a lot but here it goes.

snip

Information have to be information in the Type 2 sense. What I read sounds more like information in the Type 1 sense.

A demon's existence is something more fundamental than just the world. As we are told, a name is the concept of their existence, the basic principles that predate the demon world, a world that predates our world. Demons mold themselves after said names with this information. This is the information the soul contains as the name is only a small part of the soul. As some other character says, "With just one act. The act of naming these demons the world will change... It's very simple To change the value of everything would be all too easy"

Pretty sure this is more than just type 1 as it isn't just some simple type of knowledge, it's the fundamental information of their ("physical") existence, to change this information is to change their names and the world.

Unless I missed something the quote you showed didn't show Dante initially not recognizing Mundus.

When they first reached the Void, Dante thought Mundus was somewhere inside the void or past it waiting for them:

"Dante regarded the void with a cynical grin. "Last time, you came out of a dog statue. What are you going to throw at me this time?"" P. 140

But once they step inside they are separated, this is when Dante realizes something:

"Rebellion roared through the darkness, stabbing at the void. It had taken Dante a moment to realize that the void wasn't empty. The void was the king himself. Somehow he knew how to fight it, slashing at the darkness and instinctively avoiding attack." P. 144.

In short, Dante didn't even know the void itself was Mundus until the fight was reaching the climax.

In general, I think it's somewhat assumptive to assume that just because Dante can't see something it doesn't exist. It can just as likely be a case stealth or resistance to analysis.

We are told several times there is nothing but a void, a void that surrounds both Beryl and Dante.

• Dante regarded the void with a cynical grin. "Last time, you came out of a dog statue. What are you going to throw at me this time?
• Dante and Beryl stepped inside the void and vanished.
• The laughter echoed through the void, a sound so dark that it couldn't be human. The staccato rhythm grated on her nerves. Beryl gritted her teeth and fought to keep the despair at bay
• Occasionally she would catch an intuitive flash. Somehow she knew that Dante was out there in the void, fighting the King of the Underworld himself in a desperate battle

Then we get the confirmation that Mundus is the void itself

* Rebellion roared through the darkness, stabbing at the void. It had taken Dante a moment to realize that the void wasn't empty. The void was the king himself. Somehow he knew how to fight it, slashing at the darkness and instinctively avoiding attack.

Dante instinctively knew how to fight and avoid it attacking nothing but the void of darkness that surrounded him. To assume "Mundus" had some form of resistance to being sensed or some form of stealth mastery that goes beyond Dante's senses is a huge assumption that isn't supported.

It was even said that Dante did actually manage to see something in the void and that it was not empty, no?

Nope, that's Beryl:

"Dante had vanished the moment they stepped through the portal. At least, Beryl assumed he had. The blackness was so thick that it seemed to devour light; even Beryl's hand remained imperceptible when held in front of her face. The void left her useless; it was all she could do to keep herself together. Occasionally she would catch an intuitive flash. Somehow she knew that Dante was out there in the void, fighting the King of the Underworld himself in a desperate battle. Waves of power radiated from the coagulated darkness...Dante and Mundus clashing for the first time-in this world."

She was only getting flashes from the fight.

And the empty part refers to this:

Rebellion roared through the darkness, stabbing at the void. It had taken Dante a moment to realize that the void wasn't empty. The void was the king himself. Somehow he knew how to fight it, slashing at the darkness and instinctively avoiding attack.

The void is empty, it's just that the Void is Mundus himself as opposed to what Dante originally thought.

In fact, is there evidence towards that creature being incorporeal?

1. It's called a void multiple times 2. beryl stands inside it without being able to touch or interact with it like Dante does 3. Dante thought it was empty and Mundus was somewhere inside waiting for them only to realize the void was mundus himself.

And again, Dante is someone able to normally see and interact with incorporeal/intangible stuff all the time (souls, demons, ghosts, etc) and he didn't know what was going on with Mundus. Hell, here is a demon who is a a shadow, incorporeal and it still proved easy for him to identify, as opposed to the Void. And that is Tony, a younger and several magnitues less experienced with demons than the Dante that fights this Mundus.

What the name calling thing is concerned... it is pure conjecture with little to support it. With the only evidence being that Dante, who could create a name, being the first to say his name, I think there isn't enough evidence to assume that at all.

Sparda is a demon with the special power of being able to alter names as he pleases. This is something only a few Demons can do, something his children are able to do as seen here with Vergil and Dante.

Dante was the first one to do this as he changed his name to Tony during his childhood to escape from the demons following the instructions of his mother and later in the first novel reclaimed his real name, this changed him, making him less human than Tony was.

For reference, Mundus is able to do this too as he changed Vergil to Nelo Angelo stating he was going to get rid of his humanity, kinda the inverse of what Dante did, making himself more human when he became Tony.

We are told in this panel the act of naming a Demon isn't a great deal for the twins, just intending to name them or uttering the name seems to be enough, allowing them to choose one does the trick too (refer to the vergil manga panels).

So, going back to the second novel; Mundus is never mentioned in the alternate timeline, he is only ever referred as "The Demon King" which is a title, this of course changes when Dante comes in and simply says his name. After that demons are able to call his name. (Idk if you want scans for this last part as it would require me to basically post half of the novel to show Mundus name isn't mentioned anywere until Dante does it)

 

[StekFence]

hat rock would have to also physically not exist, so would it even be a rock?

Um yeah the rock doesn’t exist physically, but I’ve been told that’s not enough for Nep, since it needs an aspect, but I don’t know what aspect a rock could possibly even lack, since robots apparently can’t have mind as a non existent aspect since it’s not needed to exist. But a rock would only need it’s physicality to exist no?

 

[Bobsican]

If it lacks no aspect besides a body, it's just Incorporeality

 

[Elizhaa]

I guess Aspect Type 1, 2 and 4 are fine based on this (and 5 depending on how you wish to justify it). I would guess he probably has 3 as well, although strictly speaking a feat has to be presented for that.

I do think the mind should be included with complete erasure like conceptual erasure. Even weaker beings could destroy a character's mind/consciousness where characters like gods should have been to do the same; so, within this context, I think the Type 3 aspect should be included also.

 

[StekFence]

If it lacks no aspect besides a body, it's just Incorporeality

So only living thing can get Nep?

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Basically, Demon Souls in Devil May Cry have their mind, concept and information, with Dante being able to sense and interact with them many, many times in the series (Tony posted most scans about this, and the others can be found on DMC's Demon Physiology page). However Dante couldn't tell the void was actually Mundus at first, even when he is able to sense Souls (Which contains both name and information), something that would easily give Dante the tip to say it was Mundus from the very start of the fight

So for now I agree with Tony's points on Mundus

 

[DontTalkDT]

Um yeah the rock doesn’t exist physically, but I’ve been told that’s not enough for Nep, since it needs an aspect, but I don’t know what aspect a rock could possibly even lack, since robots apparently can’t have mind as a non existent aspect since it’s not needed to exist. But a rock would only need it’s physicality to exist no?

If you had a rock that doesn't physically exist, which would disqualify it from being a rock, it would have aspect type 1 and 3.

It's just that a rock that physically doesn't exist isn't a rock. Same with robots... So at that point you have to ask yourself: Is that still a regular rock and are the assumptions of pure physical existence that apply to a regular rock actually still justified? In most cases, you will find that for nonexistence rocks (or robots) you would have a special case that puts those things into question.

I do think the mind should be included with complete erasure like conceptual erasure. Even weaker beings could destroy a character's mind/consciousness where characters like gods should have been to do the same; so, within this context, I think the Type 3 aspect should be included also.

Ok. In that case you will want to additionally add nature type 3 for the mind, though. As he clearly has a mind.

A demon's existence is something more fundamental than just the world. As we are told, a name is the concept of their existence, the basic principles that predate the demon world, a world that predates our world. Demons mold themselves after said names with this information. This is the information the soul contains as the name is only a small part of the soul. As some other character says, "With just one act. The act of naming these demons the world will change... It's very simple To change the value of everything would be all too easy"

Pretty sure this is more than just type 1 as it isn't just some simple type of knowledge, it's the fundamental information of their ("physical") existence, to change this information is to change their names and the world.

Names are more than information type 1 as they also include concepts and stuff. But nothing of that is evidence that they are information type 2. They use the information to do things to reality, but the information in itself isn't a fundamental aspect of reality. There's a difference between having a database and using reality warping to shape reality according to the recorded data and reality in itself being the data in the database. Information Type 2 is the latter, while what you showed suggests the information in the name are the former.

When they first reached the Void, Dante thought Mundus was somewhere inside the void or past it waiting for them:

"Dante regarded the void with a cynical grin. "Last time, you came out of a dog statue. What are you going to throw at me this time?"" P. 140

But once they step inside they are separated, this is when Dante realizes something:

"Rebellion roared through the darkness, stabbing at the void. It had taken Dante a moment to realize that the void wasn't empty. The void was the king himself. Somehow he knew how to fight it, slashing at the darkness and instinctively avoiding attack." P. 144.

In short, Dante didn't even know the void itself was Mundus until the fight was reaching the climax.

Eh, one could read it that way.

We are told several times there is nothing but a void, a void that surrounds both Beryl and Dante.

• Dante regarded the void with a cynical grin. "Last time, you came out of a dog statue. What are you going to throw at me this time?
• Dante and Beryl stepped inside the void and vanished.
• The laughter echoed through the void, a sound so dark that it couldn't be human. The staccato rhythm grated on her nerves. Beryl gritted her teeth and fought to keep the despair at bay
• Occasionally she would catch an intuitive flash. Somehow she knew that Dante was out there in the void, fighting the King of the Underworld himself in a desperate battle

Then we get the confirmation that Mundus is the void itself

* Rebellion roared through the darkness, stabbing at the void. It had taken Dante a moment to realize that the void wasn't empty. The void was the king himself. Somehow he knew how to fight it, slashing at the darkness and instinctively avoiding attack.

Dante instinctively knew how to fight and avoid it attacking nothing but the void of darkness that surrounded him. To assume "Mundus" had some form of resistance to being sensed or some form of stealth mastery that goes beyond Dante's senses is a huge assumption that isn't supported.

It's much less assumptive than to default to the much much more powerful ability of NEP and give it a bunch of types to boot. Honestly, the entire agument doesn't work. If Dante could not sense him, due to the nonexistence, then he would also not suddenly start to sense him later. Things like a resistance or stealth, which could be overcome by trying harder, are more consistent with the depiction.

I definitely don't agree to hand out nonexistence just because something can't be seen.

Nope, that's Beryl:

"Dante had vanished the moment they stepped through the portal. At least, Beryl assumed he had. The blackness was so thick that it seemed to devour light; even Beryl's hand remained imperceptible when held in front of her face. The void left her useless; it was all she could do to keep herself together. Occasionally she would catch an intuitive flash. Somehow she knew that Dante was out there in the void, fighting the King of the Underworld himself in a desperate battle. Waves of power radiated from the coagulated darkness...Dante and Mundus clashing for the first time-in this world."

She was only getting flashes from the fight.

And the empty part refers to this:

Rebellion roared through the darkness, stabbing at the void. It had taken Dante a moment to realize that the void wasn't empty. The void was the king himself. Somehow he knew how to fight it, slashing at the darkness and instinctively avoiding attack.

The void is empty, it's just that the Void is Mundus himself as opposed to what Dante originally thought.

Rebellion roared through the darkness, stabbing at the void. It had taken Dante a moment to realize that the void wasn't empty. The void was the king himself. Somehow he knew how to fight it, slashing at the darkness and instinctively avoiding attack.

I'm referring to the bolded part that states the void wasn't empty, referring to "the king". I would say this states the king isn't emptiness.

1. It's called a void multiple times 2. beryl stands inside it without being able to touch or interact with it like Dante does 3. Dante thought it was empty and Mundus was somewhere inside waiting for them only to realize the void was mundus himself.

And again, Dante is someone able to normally see and interact with incorporeal/intangible stuff all the time (souls, demons, ghosts, etc) and he didn't know what was going on with Mundus. Hell, here is a demon who is a a shadow, incorporeal and it still proved easy for him to identify, as opposed to the Void. And that is Tony, a younger and several magnitues less experienced with demons than the Dante that fights this Mundus.

I guess the incorporeality part is fine. But yeah, don't buy the sense argument. It's like saying "I have been consistently able to see physical things. I can't see this thing, therefore it must be physically nonexistent." It's a stretch.

Sparda is a demon with the special power of being able to alter names as he pleases. This is something only a few Demons can do, something his children are able to do as seen here with Vergil and Dante.

Dante was the first one to do this as he changed his name to Tony during his childhood to escape from the demons following the instructions of his mother and later in the first novel reclaimed his real name, this changed him, making him less human than Tony was.

For reference, Mundus is able to do this too as he changed Vergil to Nelo Angelo stating he was going to get rid of his humanity, kinda the inverse of what Dante did, making himself more human when he became Tony.

We are told in this panel the act of naming a Demon isn't a great deal for the twins, just intending to name them or uttering the name seems to be enough, allowing them to choose one does the trick too (refer to the vergil manga panels).

So, going back to the second novel; Mundus is never mentioned in the alternate timeline, he is only ever referred as "The Demon King" which is a title, this of course changes when Dante comes in and simply says his name. After that demons are able to call his name. (Idk if you want scans for this last part as it would require me to basically post half of the novel to show Mundus name isn't mentioned anywere until Dante does it)

None of this supports your argument beyond what you already mentioned. Yes, Dante can do naming stuff. It's still complete speculation that that is what happened here, just because he just so happened to be the first person in the novel to say the name.

 

[Elizhaa]

Ok. In that case you will want to additionally add nature type 3 for the mind, though. As he clearly has a mind.

Alright, I make all updates later for the verse; thanks, overall.

 

[Sevil Natas]

I'm referring to the bolded part that states the void wasn't empty, referring to "the king". I would say this states the king isn't emptiness.

I don't think it's right to take the 'void wasn't empty' statement as literal since if you look at what the statement after it says 'the void is the king himself'. in this case, the non-emptiness isn't literal. it's more so a way of saying the void isn't inanimate since the novel refers to it as being the king. if the wording was different say if it's stated "the void wasn't empty. the void contained the king himself" you would've had a point. but it doesn't describe it as having something existent inside. it just says that Mundus is the void. take these two MG examples 'the box isn't empty. the box contains snake inside', 'the box isn't empty. the box is snake himself'. the latter does not mean that the box has something inside it while the former does. the former means that Snake is inside the box. the latter means that Snake learned shapeshifting not that the box he shifted to isn't empty in the literal sense.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

As you said, Body of Emptiness is too vague.

The ability "one with nothing" also explicitly states that the character needs to have a head and some organs left. That definitely contradicts full nonexistence for that ability. And that's stated before the game mechanics are explained.

Form with Emptiness is temporary. One could argue that is a level of nonexistence (would have to reread earlier explanations on the details... it's been a while), but it's just a temporary state i.e. it's high-grade intangibility, not a physiology.

I was already fine with Aspect Type 1 and 2 for Etrien Gnosos in the initial debate, I believe. If you mean nature Type 2, then conceptual nonexistence alone doesn't grant it.

What game mechanics are concerned: They are the descriptions of what is possible in the verse. They are, essentially, where actual feats come from if someone plays the game. Not saying they can't be overruled, but you gonna need way better evidence contradicting them. Especially if your source on the abilities is the explanation of the game mechanics. It's like having a video game where opponents can be killed by hitting them with swords. If you want to convince people that the opponents can't actually be killed with swords, you will need good material.

Except that bit makes zero sense when considering literally any other part of the description. Thus, we do not consider it.

Except it does? Type 1 is material nonexistence, type 2 is idealistic nonexistence. Even if "ideas" in this context do not mean concepts, which is not the case as far as I am aware, type 1 also doesn't even remotely apply for obvious reasons.

No, they are not. Game mechanics are the rules by which players interact with the world, and the modifications thereof. They are not where the actual feats come from most of the time, because few games have lore and gameplay that are well-balanced.

In general, you seem to have completely ignored how even in these few examples, the gameplay-lore disconnect is extremely apparent and jarring. We generally do not use gameplay mechanics for Anima pages for a reason. And even further, you seem to have also completely ignored the fact that being able to be hit by people in your verse is not necessarily evidence against being non-physical. Again, look at D&D Outsiders, who you can literally beat to death with your bare hands if you really wanted. These are clear cases where NPI is just a very common power in the verse, rather than people not being non-physical despite many descriptions of them saying otherwise.

 

[RedReaper616]

Names are more than information type 1 as they also include concepts and stuff. But nothing of that is evidence that they are information type 2. They use the information to do things to reality, but the information in itself isn't a fundamental aspect of reality. There's a difference between having a database and using reality warping to shape reality according to the recorded data and reality in itself being the data in the database. Information Type 2 is the latter, while what you showed suggests the information in the name are the former.

Except the Names are their source of power/concept/fundamental existence. And these Names can and have been manipulated by beings within the series to affect reality, like Sparda sealing the 7 Sins to the Temen-ni-gru and Vergil using that same power in the DMC3 Manga. So it should still qualify unless I'm mistaken.



How Important a Name is

Explicitly stated to connect to the Soul.



How Souls Work and are Important.

Which means they are critical. Dante, Vergil, and Sparda manipulate names. Thus they are able to manipulate this information.

Eh, one could read it that way.

I mean, the entirety of powerscaling and debates like this rely on interpretation, which is often personal. This isn't a counterpoint, but more me just pointing out the obvious because it feels relevant.

It's much less assumptive than to default to the much much more powerful ability of NEP and give it a bunch of types to boot. Honestly, the entire agument doesn't work. If Dante could not sense him, due to the nonexistence, then he would also not suddenly start to sense him later. Things like a resistance or stealth, which could be overcome by trying harder, are more consistent with the depiction.

Dante has recorded evolutionary capacity, so this technically is already answered by that alone. Further, it would make more sense for Mundus to simply be Nonexistent and immune to his senses (which are incredibly potent) than be stealth considering the intent is not he is hiding but instead being a living all encompassing Void, so much so Beryl cannot see anything within it-(Including herself)-Except for the clashes Dante has with V.Mundus. In fact, how could V.Mundus hide or stealth out of Dante's mega senses if he'd literally Omnipresent within his keep, an all encompassing void surrounding them both head to toe from every angle as a living darkness that exists all around them? Does he just hide behind a pillar while also being in front of it, to it's left, right, on Dante's body and also right in front of Beryl?

This is also further bunked by the fact Dante's Senses are, as follows:

Enhanced Awareness, Soul Vision, Danger Intuition, Aura Sense, Aura Vision, Longe-Range Tracking, Illusion Awareness and FTL Vision

Also things he can sense from his Extrasensory Perception:

Power Level Measurement, Magic Detection, Evil Awareness and Enhanced Sight

From the Demon Physiology Page. This would mean V.Mundus would have stealth'd by his aura detection and vision, his ability to see souls, his ability to track, his standard superhuman super senses, Dante's ability to sense danger, etc.

If he's truly this stealthy, forget Batman, we got real Vengeance right here.

I definitely don't agree to hand out nonexistence just because something can't be seen.



I'm referring to the bolded part that states the void wasn't empty, referring to "the king". I would say this states the king isn't emptiness.

Except it was likely intending to imply the Void "Not being empty," as not lacking sentience, as the very line is:

"Rebellion roared through the darkness, stabbing at the void. It had taken Dante a moment to realize that the void wasn't empty. The void was the king himself. Somehow he knew how to fight it, slashing at the darkness and instinctively avoiding attack." P. 144.

I guess the incorporeality part is fine. But yeah, don't buy the sense argument. It's like saying "I have been consistently able to see physical things. I can't see this thing, therefore it must be physically nonexistent." It's a stretch.

The point of him pointing it out wasn't to point out how Dante could sense things well and couldn't detect him (only to detect him later), but rather point out just what Dante typically can perceive and thus show how impressive the V.Mundus feat truly is. Dante can see souls, (Demon Souls as well), and everything listed above and Mundus was still unable to be perceived.

Edit: Grammar and adding more things Dante can detect.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Names are more than information type 1 as they also include concepts and stuff. But nothing of that is evidence that they are information type 2. They use the information to do things to reality, but the information in itself isn't a fundamental aspect of reality. There's a difference between having a database and using reality warping to shape reality according to the recorded data and reality in itself being the data in the database. Information Type 2 is the latter, while what you showed suggests the information in the name are the former.

Except that, as the scan explicitly says, "With just one act. The act of naming these demons the world will change... It's very simple To change the value of everything would be all too easy" by messing with Names. The definition of the page is pretty much the same I have presented above:

Fundamental: These characters can manipulate information, which serves as fundamental building block of reality. This can allow characters to rewrite the world to their whims, often by programming it much like they would a virtual reality. These manipulation can come on many levels. For some it might just be the mechanism behind mundane magical abilities, while others can rewrite information to change reality, causality or the laws of nature.

Eh, one could read it that way.

You can't, really, you actually can't, the lines are very obvious that I didn't expect this to be part of the discussion.

It's much less assumptive than to default to the much much more powerful ability of NEP and give it a bunch of types to boot. Honestly, the entire agument doesn't work. If Dante could not sense him, due to the nonexistence, then he would also not suddenly start to sense him later. Things like a resistance or stealth, which could be overcome by trying harder, are more consistent with the depiction.

No, its much more assumptive to think the Void has a very specific set of power and resistances that have never been stated, hinted or shown instead of going with what the text is directly saying.

And Dante didn't sense him later on, what made you think that? Dante only realized the Void was Mundus after they started fighting and the text is pretty clear that he has no idea how he is fighting/touching the Void but he is able to.

I definitely don't agree to hand out nonexistence just because something can't be seen.

This isn't why Mundus has non existence. He is stated to be a literal void, that plus the soul, name part and ta-dah.

I'm referring to the bolded part that states the void wasn't empty, referring to "the king". I would say this states the king isn't emptiness.

Sevil explained this better than I could.

I guess the incorporeality part is fine. But yeah, don't buy the sense argument. It's like saying "I have been consistently able to see physical things. I can't see this thing, therefore it must be physically nonexistent." It's a stretch.

What? I'm pretty sure that's a false equivalence, I specifically said Dante is able to sense all that incorporeal/intangible stuff, souls, minds, power levels, ghosts, spirits, shadows, etc (all of that incorporeal/intangible shit) and yet he is unable to sense Mundus and for that we are given the reason why, he is a literal void of nothing, there is literally nothing for Dante to sense.

None of this supports your argument beyond what you already mentioned. Yes, Dante can do naming stuff. It's still complete speculation that that is what happened here, just because he just so happened to be the first person in the novel to say the name.

That's how the verse works. The manga scans are explicit enough, he can do this without the need to pull some fancy show or anything similar to that.

This is what happens in the first novel with him going from Tony to Dante and also happens in the DMC4 Novel, Nero got fused with a demon and lost all of his existence/individuality to it, Dante separated them with a certain sword and then exclaimed his name, Nero immediately regenerated back.

 

[RedReaper616]

Bump.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I don't think it's right to take the 'void wasn't empty' statement as literal since if you look at what the statement after it says 'the void is the king himself'. in this case, the non-emptiness isn't literal. it's more so a way of saying the void isn't inanimate since the novel refers to it as being the king. if the wording was different say if it's stated "the void wasn't empty. the void contained the king himself" you would've had a point. but it doesn't describe it as having something existent inside. it just says that Mundus is the void. take these two MG examples 'the box isn't empty. the box contains snake inside', 'the box isn't empty. the box is snake himself'. the latter does not mean that the box has something inside it while the former does. the former means that Snake is inside the box. the latter means that Snake learned shapeshifting not that the box he shifted to isn't empty in the literal sense.

Or it's the much more straightforward interpretation that the void isn't empty, but that there is actually a being there.
With how badly supported the extremely high-level nonexistence theory is, that statement can't simply be disregarded that easily.

Except the Names are their source of power/concept/fundamental existence. And these Names can and have been manipulated by beings within the series to affect reality, like Sparda sealing the 7 Sins to the Temen-ni-gru and Vergil using that same power in the DMC3 Manga. So it should still qualify unless I'm mistaken.



How Important a Name is

Explicitly stated to connect to the Soul.



How Souls Work and are Important.

Which means they are critical. Dante, Vergil, and Sparda manipulate names. Thus they are able to manipulate this information.

Except that, as the scan explicitly says, "With just one act. The act of naming these demons the world will change... It's very simple To change the value of everything would be all too easy" by messing with Names. The definition of the page is pretty much the same I have presented above:

Fundamental: These characters can manipulate information, which serves as fundamental building block of reality. This can allow characters to rewrite the world to their whims, often by programming it much like they would a virtual reality. These manipulation can come on many levels. For some it might just be the mechanism behind mundane magical abilities, while others can rewrite information to change reality, causality or the laws of nature.

Yeah. Was already said. Seen the scans already. Already explained why that doesn't suffice as evidence. Being part of something fundamental alone doesn't make it type 2. You need evidence that the information, and the information isolated from the other fundamental aspects of the name alone, are fundamental. We aren't talking about names being fundamental, but the information they contain being fundamental in isolation of all the other aspects that make up names, such as concepts.

You haven't presented that. You have just presented evidence that names are fundamental.

That's my final word on the topic, unless you bring sources that say more than what was already posted.

Dante has recorded evolutionary capacity, so this technically is already answered by that alone.

That's just supporting speculation with even more speculation.

Further, it would make more sense for Mundus to simply be Nonexistent and immune to his senses (which are incredibly potent) than be stealth considering the intent is not he is hiding but instead being a living all encompassing Void, so much so Beryl cannot see anything within it-(Including herself)-Except for the clashes Dante has with V.Mundus. In fact, how could V.Mundus hide or stealth out of Dante's mega senses if he'd literally Omnipresent within his keep, an all encompassing void surrounding them both head to toe from every angle as a living darkness that exists all around them? Does he just hide behind a pillar while also being in front of it, to it's left, right, on Dante's body and also right in front of Beryl?


This is also further bunked by the fact Dante's Senses are, as follows:

All you're arguing is that the possibility isn't contradicted, but there is no evidence whatsoever that makes that and only that possibility alone possible.

Heck, the fact that Beryl can't even see herself, despite herself existing, points more to the void negating senses. (btw. when I say stealth, I obviously mean stealth by supernatural means)

Until you bring actual evidence beyond "Dante can't see him" it's a no from me and that as well is my final answer. There are enough powers that can evade supernatural senses.

No, its much more assumptive to think the Void has a very specific set of power and resistances that have never been stated, hinted or shown instead of going with what the text is directly saying.

And Dante didn't sense him later on, what made you think that? Dante only realized the Void was Mundus after they started fighting and the text is pretty clear that he has no idea how he is fighting/touching the Void but he is able to.

The fact that he realizes it is Mundus means he senses him. Otherwise he wouldn't know that.

And no, resisting a strong invisibility or blindness effect is far less speculative then the ultra-powerful ability which only real evidence is in the character being called "void".

This isn't why Mundus has non existence. He is stated to be a literal void, that plus the soul, name part and ta-dah.

Being called a void grants absolutely nothing. So yeah.

What? I'm pretty sure that's a false equivalence, I specifically said Dante is able to sense all that incorporeal/intangible stuff, souls, minds, power levels, ghosts, spirits, shadows, etc (all of that incorporeal/intangible shit) and yet he is unable to sense Mundus and for that we are given the reason why, he is a literal void of nothing, there is literally nothing for Dante to sense.

Invisibility is the ability to escape regular sight. Similarly, there are abilities that let you escape supernatural senses. Just because you escape a lifeforce sensing spell doesn't mean you have no lifeforce. So yeah, not a false equivalence.

That's how the verse works. The manga scans are explicit enough, he can do this without the need to pull some fancy show or anything similar to that.

This is what happens in the first novel with him going from Tony to Dante and also happens in the DMC4 Novel, Nero got fused with a demon and lost all of his existence/individuality to it, Dante separated them with a certain sword and then exclaimed his name, Nero immediately regenerated back.

"That's how the verse works." Is no argument. If the work works by making things incredibly vague and not explaining things, then the verse will have to expect people doubting it. Since it isn't said anywhere that Dante invoked this supernatural effect and there was no effect that couldn't just have been coincidence, I don't see this being sufficiently supported to be added.

As with other things, this is my final word on that matter unless new scans are presented that show things more clearly.

You are free to present my and your arguments to other admins of course and, if at least two and the majority of asked staff members agree with your views over mine, you can add it anyway. But from me it's a no.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

snip

Welp, back to making a thread for it then.

 

[Sevil Natas]

Or it's the much more straightforward interpretation that the void isn't empty, but that there is actually a being there.
With how badly supported the extremely high-level nonexistence theory is, that statement can't simply be disregarded that easily.

straightforward how? the statement says the void isn't empty because Mundus is the void. Mundus fights Dante as a void. there's not a single indication that even implies that someone is inside. Mundus is the void. he's not in the void.

the counterargument for that is very weak. it relies on a statement that basically says something entirely different than what it's trying to conclude(IE mundus being inside the void. the void is not empty). it's very important not to take everything literally in any statement and actually understand what it is trying to say before jumping to conclusions

 

[RedReaper616]

Or it's the much more straightforward interpretation that the void isn't empty, but that there is actually a being there.
With how badly supported the extremely high-level nonexistence theory is, that statement can't simply be disregarded that easily.

Er. It’s clearly stating something else entirely. Is it not more fallacious to presume something with more assumptions than the one with less and the thing being contradicted by the words? It is saying “The Void was the King himself.” Not “The King is hiding within the Void.”

It’s more straightforward to assume what it’s telling you: The Void is Mundus. Not Mundus is found within it, but that he literally was the Void.

How is the contradiction of the text more straightforward and less assumptive than the text itself?

Yeah. Was already said. Seen the scans already. Already explained why that doesn't suffice as evidence. Being part of something fundamental alone doesn't make it type 2. You need evidence that the information, and the information isolated from the other fundamental aspects of the name alone, are fundamental. We aren't talking about names being fundamental, but the information they contain being fundamental in isolation of all the other aspects that make up names, such as concepts.

You haven't presented that. You have just presented evidence that names are fundamental.

That's my final word on the topic, unless you bring sources that say more than what was already posted.

They’re…stated to be that? That’s like it is saying “Names are only partially fundamental.” It’s stating that Names in themselves are fundamental and integral to thing’s like a Demon’s Concept, their power, their existence, and these Names/Fundamental information was made prior to the creation of the worlds. It’s also weird that your counter argument is that Names are not what’s being debated, when that’s the whole point. Names are the thing we’re trying to talk about and contain all of that information to freely manipulate.

The information…is all of that? It counts as the Mind, Memories, Ancestry of your Body, Your Body, and the Name manifests as all that part of the Soul. You know, the Basic 9-Dimensional Form that exists beyond the eightfold path.

You’re arguing that Names aren’t important because we’re talking about the information “separate/isolated from the other fundamental parts,” but the Names information is all those fundamental parts.
It doesn’t quite make sense. Further, manipulating a Name manipulates all of those as well, so it would count anyway.

That's just supporting speculation with even more speculation.

The opposition that you propose is arguing against speculation with more arbitrary speculation not supported by the text…at all, but that is more valid than one of Dante’s pre-existing abilities being the reason he can perform these feats?


Uhm, okaaaaaay, sure, that makes total sense. Mundus can stealth past his senses because, well, he just can, and the fact it repeatedly calls him out as being the Void as the source of his newfound strength is just hogwash, as this somehow requires less assumption than the literal intention of the text. (Obviously, I’m being sarcastic.)

Your argument in itself doesn’t have much more basis other than “Dante senses him later,” and which he realized only after he was hitting the battle’s climax, something that would be better explained by a pre-existing precedent in the series rather than “He just can because he just can.”

All you're arguing is that the possibility isn't contradicted, but there is no evidence whatsoever that makes that and only that possibility alone possible.

Heck, the fact that Beryl can't even see herself, despite herself existing, points more to the void negating senses. (btw. when I say stealth, I obviously mean stealth by supernatural means)

Until you bring actual evidence beyond "Dante can't see him" it's a no from me and that as well is my final answer. There are enough powers that can evade supernatural senses.

That doesn’t answer the initial point. How could Mundus hide his presence and from Dante’s senses when he was the VOID? Why would he simply just BATMAN’ING through them just because when the text heavily implies that being the Void is what gave Mundus all these extra powers? Why would Mundus have stealth when it’s stated that he was living dark substance all around them as an omnipresent thing?
Again, HOW is this somehow more straightforward than the implications literally being implied by the actual text other than it being the more conservative option?

The fact that he realizes it is Mundus means he senses him. Otherwise he wouldn't know that.

And no, resisting a strong invisibility or blindness effect is far less speculative then the ultra-powerful ability which only real evidence is in the character being called "void".

No, it’s the more conservative answer. There’s being “less speculative,” I.e it requires less assumptions or leaps in logic to make, and then there is being “more conservative,” which is making the most barebones assumptions to try to annul the higher possibilities without substantial evidence to support a claim to prevent over scaling.

Except in the process your speculation is not less speculative, it is riddled with more assumptions, given it requires Mundus gaining abilities unrelated to the text, directly contradicted by the words and clear intent of the author, disregarding how Names work on a mechanical level, etc.

Being called a void grants absolutely nothing. So yeah.

I’ve already responded to this with ever

Invisibility is the ability to escape regular sight. Similarly, there are abilities that let you escape supernatural senses. Just because you escape a lifeforce sensing spell doesn't mean you have no lifeforce. So yeah, not a false equivalence.

It was false equivalence. One is stating something about something that could be quantified and observed utilizing other senses, (being invisible to merely sight can still be observed with the rest of your senses by observing if there is still something there to touch, taste, smell, or hear), whereas you’re comparing that to immunity towards the sensing of souls, (already impressive), aura, etc. etc.

With you logic, Mundus is escaping these “just because,” since it is the weaker option rather than the stronger one. (Hence being more conservative rather than less speculative, because it quite literally requires more speculation to achieve this conclusion and ignore what the text is trying to communicate to its reader.)

"That's how the verse works." Is no argument. If the work works by making things incredibly vague and not explaining things, then the verse will have to expect people doubting it. Since it isn't said anywhere that Dante invoked this supernatural effect and there was no effect that couldn't just have been coincidence, I don't see this being sufficiently supported to be added.

I’m neutral on this stance, but I will say it makes more sense that this happened than something else unsupported and contradicted by the text entirely.

As with other things, this is my final word on that matter unless new scans are presented that show things more clearly.

You are free to present my and your arguments to other admins of course and, if at least two and the majority of asked staff members agree with your views over mine, you can add it anyway. But from me it's a no.

That’s fair. It is subjective, after all.

 

[Tetsuya1029]

Nonexistence state (like former type 2) exists in the verse as Gods can regenerate even when conceptually killed as shown in UEG's profile. Yogiri is still stated to pretty much not even exist in such even by such Nigh-Omniscient gods as shown on his profile. So, I think Type 2 Nature and All type seem more feasible than the other case.

So wait how exactly does UEG have NEP again?