Nonexistent Physiology: Updating Characters to the New Types

[TrueKingOfHeroes]

Kama: Do you have those scans in a form that are.... readable? Generally noticed how fate pages tend to link to untranslated scans... And when you say she acts like she has a soul and mind, what do you mean with that? Or specifically, is there evidence that the soul and mind she paradoxically has can't be affected by regular soul/mind manip?

Kama no longer has a physical body, the whole body, the core of being, and the concept was erased by Shiva, therefore she becomes pure void.

In addition, the core of Servant is Spirit Origin which is the soul that contains concept, information, mind and memory.

 

[DaReaperMan]

It's what gods and other characters are made of, it's what their fundamental existence made out of. You literally cannot affect them without being able to affect Aethyr. And energy is just an abstract way of describing it, it's literally a boiling mass of raw possibilities with no core concept, a pure catalyst of change with no physical or existence or conceptual existence.

Specifically, just read the main part of this blog.

 

[Zaratthustra]

Hey, DT what do you think of these cases:

1. Character A's soul is split into two and one half become with the Cosmos (Multiverse) thus nothingness while the other half one with the physical body. -- This is how it was stated by the author.

2. Character B can control with his will the state of his existence and non-existence within his dimension, can't be hurt by attacks be them on a physical, soul, mind, abstract/conceptual level.

3. Character C has an art that let her become 'nothing' as her art reenacts stories such as 'The Emperor's New Clothes' which makes her not be able to be attacked as you can't interact with something that doesn't exist at all.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Ness is AE 1 from embodying fate, and Giygas was about to destroy everything, including Ness, leaving just darkness. Giygas already embodies darkness as he embodies a dimension made of it. Given that Giygas was about to destroy everything on a conceptual level, as that included Ness too, darkness in context is the non-existent void left after the destruction of everything, including concepts.

Eh, I take it you mean the concept of destiny, like the page puts it, and not destiny itself?
I guess Nature Type 1, Aspect Type 2 and 3 (for the mindless version).

I would like to know how to rate some characters that I plan on making a profile in the future.
Basically, this beings exist in a higher dimensional realm, a place that is described as a void, a realm of nothingness, and this characters are projections of this place, which makes them shapeless and incorporeal.
They also incarnates desires, memories, thoughts, and other concepts. Basically they are AE Type 1.
I think that they should classify as NEP (Nature Type 1, Aspect 1), but I am not too sure.

From what you described it depends on whether they have souls or not. Some abstracts do have them. Depends on the setting.

Pokemon Gods get Type 1 with Aspect 1 in their true forms
Giratina gets Type 1 with Aspects 1 and 2 with it having that and lacking the Concepts of Space and Time
Arceus obviously gets what Giratina gets

Since that's a new addition of the ability that wasn't on the profile before you should make a separate CRT about it. Personally, I'm fine Aspect Type 1. Aspect Type 2 not, though. Type 2 is for lacking concepts that would be necessary for your own existence. Spacetime isn't exactly something Giratina needs as a cosmic entity.

Just to make sure I got this right, the Nature part of the NEP is where it determines how hard it is to affect the character in general while the Aspect type just grants them a resistance/immunity to an ability right? Like if you affected a Type 1 Nature NEP it doesn’t matter what it’s nature is since you can affect materialistic and the others are just a resistance thing?

Not sure I quite understand the question. Answering what I think you mean: If you have NPI against a Nature Type 1 NEP character, then you can affect other Nature Type 1 NEP characters in the same Aspect (and probably Type 3's as well). If you want to affect, say, their soul you would of course still need soul manipulation and it would need to be clear that your NPI applies/can be combined with your soul manipulation. But if you can physically punch one Nature Type 1, you can physically punch them all (well, theoretically. I'm sure some verses have exceptions).

Kuon profile mention about he has all powers from EXS and being a Void, it mean he has incorporeality at least. For the current Kuon we see, it just a mere illusion/avartar created by him because he can't manifest his true form yet. "Turning into a void on the inside" it mean their insides will turn into void nature, not only their mortal body, even their soul will consumed and tainted and cannot return anymore, like kuon his soul is nothing more than darkness right now.
About the darkness, according to Chaos darkness is also referred to as a void creatures

I guess Aspect Type 1 is probably ok then, as long as the verse contradicts none of that.

Critters and Kikai exist only as possibilities, having no material form, being called intangible existences etc. Their existence only as possibilities is also explained to also mean that they don't even have a life, only a possibility resembling that.

They are also stated to be supernatural phenomenon, forms of death, terror given form etc, my point was that Critter and Kikai don't have souls. They aren't "illusions" like Grimm, its nature is the same, but more complex, as it was born from the feelings of the Grand Prince, and appears at the edge of everyone's vision, and even in their dreams, it is an illusion that everyone sees, it's not real, so i don't think it has a soul.

I am more interested in what you think about M though, this is the important stuff that's said about Sharnoth, based on that what NEP would you give him? There is more to his natue as he is a conceptual entity that is one of the 3 fundamental parts of the universe, and classified as "Black", not even a living thing, and he has existed since before creation, but don't think all that is too relevant to NEP.

Wait, you mention Critters here, but M's profile states "Manipulated the souls of the dead Meta=Critter hosts to talk to Mary". That seems to suggest Critters have souls. Or are Meta=Critters an exception?

What M is concerned... I would classify it as Nature Type 3 if we give him NEP. In my understanding, we are clearly shown that there are things in that world, like the castle-like structures, even if it is stated to be nothing. What aspects are concerned, I'm really not sure though. I guess as a conceptual entity and the embodiment of a place Aspect Type 1 might be fine. If so, he would also get Nature Type 1, I suppose.

It's what gods and other characters are exclusively made of, these characters literally are made of nothing else but Aethyr. You literally cannot affect them without being able to affect Aethyr. And energy is just an abstract way of describing it, it's literally a boiling mass of raw possibilities with no core concept, a pure catalyst of change with no physical existence or conceptual existence.

Ok. Once you do the CRT for that make sure to include evidence that they definitely are made from nothing else. Souls, concepts, minds etc...

 

[Theglassman12]

Ok, that does answer my question, thank you.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Meta=Criiters aren't Critters, i know might be confusing, to explain Meta=Critters are born from their users feelings, monster born out of darkness, you kill the Meta=Critter equal their host becoming like brain dead, cause they literally are their feelings. The users of them were part of a research group in London seeking to enter Sharnoth, so they could experience an eternal now.

Critters were born out of the Phenomenon Equation Experience conducted by the Grand Prince of Inganock, a city which exists on an entirely separate planet, which for 10 years was isolated from the outside world. They are supernatural phenomenon which exist only as the possibilities of 41 unborn lives.

Long story short the 2 are 2 different things, and also what M manipulated was the souls of the Meta=Critters users, not the Meta=Critters themselves.

So M would have Nature type 1 and 3, with Aspect 1?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Eh, I take it you mean the concept of destiny, like the page puts it, and not destiny itself?
I guess Nature Type 1, Aspect Type 2 and 3 (for the mindless version).

What about Giygas embodying also evil, which is a concept that also exist? Wouldn't it make Type 3 for the 2nd Aspect?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Uhhhh DT? The upcoming revision apsolutely is NOT general or for stuff that's already accepted like everything on Aethyr Manipulation before most the lore was separated from the main page. I have 0 idea where you even came up with that idea considering the first one was literally establishing a connected cosmology for Fantasy and 40K.

If you REALLY want a revision made for something that's already accepted, we can probably get one out in a few days or just post the blog that was Originally on the page in the first place, say "here's your evidence" and call it a day.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Yeah he is technicaly corporal, but he can't be affected as he not something that was proved to exist. He just a fictionnal theory. To make him existant you need to resolve the theory. And all servant can affect information/concept/soul and mind in an extant

Maxwell: From the look of that panel it is less that he can't be affected (he seems wounded), but more that he can't be killed without resolving the theory, no? If so we are dealing more with immortality/regeneration here than with NEP.

For kama, crimson have all the scan but i have this at least.



When Kama shoot Shiva with an arrow of love, he opened his third eye and burnt him to ashes, so that neither his flesh nor concept remained
Fate/Grand Order - Tokugawa Restoration Labyrinth Ooku - Act 7: God of Love.

It was only for the mind my fault. And it's because she can still talk, think etc. in first she already have an immunity to mind manip because the skill divine core. Otherwise she able to whistand the passive mind manip of kiara.

"When Kama shoot Shiva with an arrow of love, he opened his third eye and burnt him to ashes, so that neither his flesh nor concept remained" Is that part a quote?

Well if Kama existed despite having her concept erased that's certainly Aspect Type 2.

So the paradoxical mind nonexistence is because she has a mind, but concept erasure should imply mind erasure in fate? Hmm... I'm not quite convinced yet. Wouldn't the fact that she has a skill that grants her mind resistance imply that she has a mind that could be manipulated without that skill?

If I understood your post correctly spiritual nonexistence was off the table for her, yes?

For Root and Shiki I don't understand what you mean by information sorry, it doesn't have any description/nor definition it can't have any information in any form and even trying to think of it will juste create an idea separated from the root.
Same as it doesn't exist in any shape of reality.

For the mind.
It quite simple she just never born from a mind, she the origin of shiki rougi born from the body. She is a spark of sentience that not part of mind.

And she was already able to no be affected by unified language of satsuki who is a power that allow to manipulated the mind. (And it's a power directly connected to the Root).


“Such is what I am, a character produced not from
the mind but the body, wholly different from  or Shiki, who arose
from her fractured psyche. I am the power behind them"

"Yet rather than the body arising from the existence of sentience, the
body is crafted well before the emergence of any kind of sentience. But the
body alone carries no sense of sapience. The body is simply there. But even
within such a simple thing, something drives it, something that connects
it to a primal origin.
The boy nods. He’s heard of this before; that there are three things any
human must have to live: the psyche, the soul, and the body. This girl then,
was Shiki’s true nature, what mages had called the origin of a person." - Kara no kyoukai - Vol 3 - page 225

The girl nods and says, “Indeed. Not so large a surprise. All have an origin that carries some small spark of intelligence, but it never comes to fore at the beginning of life. It is the mind of a person that must carry that first burden, and transmute that along with the body to a personality. Thus
does the little intelligence of the origin lose meaning and fade”- kara no kyoukai - empty boundaries page 225/226

I guess that's probably ok. They should also have Nature Type 3, as they clearly display sentience in some form, though.

Uhhhh DT? The upcoming revision apsolutely is NOT general or for stuff that's already accepted like everything on Aethyr Manipulation before most the lore was separated from the main page. I have 0 idea where you even came up with that idea considering the first one was literally establishing a connected cosmology for Fantasy and 40K.

If you REALLY want a revision made for something that's already accepted, we can probably get one out in a few days or just post the blog that was Originally on the page in the first place, say "here's your evidence" and call it a day.

The way I understood Naitodesu in an earlier post he wanted to debate how Aethyr translated to the new NEP types in a future CRT (with knowledgable members I assume). It wasn't my decision. If you would rather have just me take a look here, I can do that instead.

Hey, DT what do you think of these cases:

1. Character A's soul is split into two and one half become with the Cosmos (Multiverse) thus nothingness while the other half one with the physical body. -- This is how it was stated by the author.

2. Character B can control with his will the state of his existence and non-existence within his dimension, can't be hurt by attacks be them on a physical, soul, mind, abstract/conceptual level.

3. Character C has an art that let her become 'nothing' as her art reenacts stories such as 'The Emperor's New Clothes' which makes her not be able to be attacked as you can't interact with something that doesn't exist at all.

1. Probably no NEP. I'm not sure why the author assosciates the cosmos with nothingness, but... it's certainly something. And, well, the body is the body.

2. Is it that he can't be hurt due to resistance or due to those things not existing for him? Controling the state of existence and non-existence is Void Manip or Existence Erasure. If he uses it on himself on hence temporarily lacks these attributes it is Type 1 (or 3 given the usual conditions) and the respective aspects, but it should be noted to be temporary/controlled instead of the usual passive state.

3. Depends on which level she becomes nothing. She would require proof of at least one aspect type to qualify.

What about Giygas embodying also evil, which is a concept that also exist? Wouldn't it make Type 3 for the 2nd Aspect?

Uhhhh... I mean, you have a point that if evil is a concept he embodies in that state the Aspect Type 2 needs to be rethought. It would then need proof that the evil concept he embodies also is nonexistent in a fashion that doesn't allow it to be attacked to get Type 3.

Meta=Criiters aren't Critters, i know might be confusing, to explain Meta=Critters are born from their users feelings, monster born out of darkness, you kill the Meta=Critter equal their host becoming like brain dead, cause they literally are their feelings. The users of them were part of a research group in London seeking to enter Sharnoth, so they could experience an eternal now.

Critters were born out of the Phenomenon Equation Experience conducted by the Grand Prince of Inganock, a city which exists on an entirely separate planet, which for 10 years was isolated from the outside world. They are supernatural phenomenon which exist only as the possibilities of 41 unborn lives.

Long story short the 2 are 2 different things, and also what M manipulated was the souls of the Meta=Critters users, not the Meta=Critters themselves.

So M would have Nature type 1 and 3, with Aspect 1?

I suppose that would be fine then, yes.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I posted this earlier in the thread.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Uhhhh... I mean, you have a point that if evil is a concept he embodies in that state the Aspect Type 2 needs to be rethought. It would then need proof that the evil concept he embodies also is nonexistent in a fashion that doesn't allow it to be attacked to get Type 3.

I guess Type 1 Nature for both 2nd and 3rd Aspect works then.

 

[Regidian]

Maxwell: From the look of that panel it is less that he can't be affected (he seems wounded), but more that he can't be killed without resolving the theory, no? If so we are dealing more with immortality/regeneration here than with NEP.


"When Kama shoot Shiva with an arrow of love, he opened his third eye and burnt him to ashes, so that neither his flesh nor concept remained" Is that part a quote?

Well if Kama existed despite having her concept erased that's certainly Aspect Type 2.

So the paradoxical mind nonexistence is because she has a mind, but concept erasure should imply mind erasure in fate? Hmm... I'm not quite convinced yet. Wouldn't the fact that she has a skill that grants her mind resistance imply that she has a mind that could be manipulated without that skill?

If I understood your post correctly spiritual nonexistence was off the table for her, yes?


I guess that's probably ok. They should also have Nature Type 3, as they clearly display sentience in some form, though.


The way I understood Naitodesu in an earlier post he wanted to debate how Aethyr translated to the new NEP types in a future CRT (with knowledgable members I assume). It wasn't my decision. If you would rather have just me take a look here, I can do that instead.


1. Probably no NEP. I'm not sure why the author assosciates the cosmos with nothingness, but... it's certainly something. And, well, the body is the body.

2. Is it that he can't be hurt due to resistance or due to those things not existing for him? Controling the state of existence and non-existence is Void Manip or Existence Erasure. If he uses it on himself on hence temporarily lacks these attributes it is Type 1 (or 3 given the usual conditions) and the respective aspects, but it should be noted to be temporary/controlled instead of the usual passive state.

3. Depends on which level she becomes nothing. She would require proof of at least one aspect type to qualify.


Uhhhh... I mean, you have a point that if evil is a concept he embodies in that state the Aspect Type 2 needs to be rethought. It would then need proof that the evil concept he embodies also is nonexistent in a fashion that doesn't allow it to be attacked to get Type 3.


I suppose that would be fine then, yes.

For maxwell it's juste his body that was like that, it's akin to a illusion, it's here you can touch him but you can't really do a thing to him.
The only thing that was able to affect him was this NP because it deal with non existant people. And it's already show in his profile that he can't take any action in the world because he doesn't exist.
And it can't be immortality or regen since hax doesn't affect him normaly too.

Decisive Blade: Eternity Three Stage: Okita Alter's blades fires a three beams with infinite length formed into one, blowing concept of the enemy away, erasing their existence in the process. This is effective even those who can't be erased forcibly or by normal means, or even those who doesn't exist in the first place.

For kama
She have this skill because she is a god. And it's a common skill of god.

And yeah concept erasure imply mind and soul erasure. God are conceptual being who formed a mind and soul, erasing their concept it's just erasing their whole existence (and the np i show above mention that two).

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

you double posted

 

[Regidian]

you double posted

Ty

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Ok so the only character on that list that I know is Epros. He has Nonexistent Physiology because he's an illusion, although this obviously isn't good enough justification and he doesn't even have a scan, so I'll provide the evidence and we'll see if he is qualified.

Epros is an illusion

Right before his boss battle, Phantom Evil King (Epros) states that corporeal attacks won't work on him because his form is just an illusion.

Phantom Evil King: "A caveat, bide! Corporeal attacks will be futile as this form is but a illusion.

In the boss battle itself, when you (no matter what level you are) attack Epros with a physical attack it says 0 damage which is the games way of telling you that standard attacks don't work on him.

What are Evil Kings?

All Evil Kings, including Phantom Evil King (Epros) are ghosts. In the main title screen, it states ghosts are classified as "out of human".(top of the scan below the word ghost) Basically telling us a ghost is something that was once inside a human.

Edit: I Apologize if this scan above is too blurry to make out the "out of human" text.

Ghosts in their normal state are simply different color translucent puff balls that have no tangible form as we see one phase right through the bushes after attacking the main characters sister.

The Hero Rosalyn can interact with ghosts in their natural intangible state as shown in a in-game scene were she slashes and destroys 2 ghosts and saves the main character. However, even she cannot interact with Epros physically.

So even characters with the ability to harm ghosts in their natural intangible state which are basically the thing that once in a human (more than likely the soul) cannot interact with Epros who is a ghost. Evil King Big Bull stated he felt Evil King Stan's soul within him] (though this could be seen as a metaphor but considering [URL=https://imgur.com/5Mn05cD]he had a part of Stan within him I doubt it was a metaphor) and some ghosts live in the underworld with the devil so they seem like spirits.

So this means ghosts are actually intangible souls that are classified as "out of human" (basically the soul of a human). So since people like Rosalyn can interact with and harm ghosts (souls) with her physical strikes but cannot touch/harm Epros and he's a ghost, that means even his soul is an illusion.

What type of Nonexistent Physiology?

I think he would be Type 1 Material Nonexistence and in regards to what Aspect of Nonexistence hed be, I assume 1 Spiritual Nonexistence since he's a ghost/soul that is just an illusion.

Nonexistent Physiology (Type 1, Aspect 1; Epros is a non-corporeal ghost and states that corporeal attacks are futile against him do to his form being an illusion. Even characters with the ability to interact with intangible ghosts cannot interact with him)

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Going through the NEP category for other characters i know:

-Isekai at Peace characters lose NEP, all that's said is basically that they are nothingness, it's just Incorporeality.

-Spirit of the Eternity Sword characters should have nature type 1, aspect 1, as their bodies and souls are completely null, nothingness.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I posted this earlier in the thread.

Ok, understood this as you wanting me to take a look and think about which NEP types it should get in the new system. So I read through that (and Naitodesu's earlier scans).

So Aethyr is a void and an element of change, which everything is linked to but not composed of. It is of course intangible... so far so good.

Then it says that the soul is made of Aethyr (no scan, though). What this means for me is that even beings made out of just Aethyr can have a soul, even if it might be different from a normal soul in some sense.

However, there is no really any information about anything else. Aethyr can make use of concepts, but I see nothing indicating it has none or that concepts are composed out of Aethyr. Minds aren't really mentioned and information aren't either.

Naitodesu suggested that it could get all Nature and Aspect type of NEP. I don't see why yet.

I guess Type 1 Nature for both 2nd and 3rd Aspect works then.

Ok?

For maxwell it's juste his body that was like that, it's akin to a illusion, it's here you can touch him but you can't really do a thing to him.
The only thing that was able to affect him was this NP because it deal with non existant people. And it's already show in his profile that he can't take any action in the world because he doesn't exist.
And it can't be immortality or regen since hax doesn't affect him normaly too.

Decisive Blade: Eternity Three Stage: Okita Alter's blades fires a three beams with infinite length formed into one, blowing concept of the enemy away, erasing their existence in the process. This is effective even those who can't be erased forcibly or by normal means, or even those who doesn't exist in the first place.

I mean... if you can touch him then he isn't really physically nonexistent? But ok, let's assume we take his body as an avatar or something and give NEP to just his true self without that physical shell... which aspects do you suggest? Same as Kama for being more nonexistent than her or more?

For kama
She have this skill because she is a god. And it's a common skill of god.

And yeah concept erasure imply mind and soul erasure. God are conceptual being who formed a mind and soul, erasing their concept it's just erasing their whole existence (and the np i show above mention that two).

Well, I suppose that is ok. So Nature Type 3 for the mind, probably, and Nature Type 1 for the others.

Ok so the only character on that list that I know is Epros. He has Nonexistent Physiology because he's an illusion, although this obviously isn't good enough justification and he doesn't even have a scan, so I'll provide the evidence and we'll see if he is qualified.

Epros is an illusion

Right before his boss battle, Phantom Evil King (Epros) states that corporeal attacks won't work on him because his form is just an illusion.

Phantom Evil King: "A caveat, bide! Corporeal attacks will be futile as this form is but a illusion.

In the boss battle itself, when you (no matter what level you are) attack Epros with a physical attack it says 0 damage which is the games way of telling you that standard attacks don't work on him.

What are Evil Kings?

All Evil Kings, including Phantom Evil King (Epros) are ghosts. In the main title screen, it states ghosts are classified as "out of human".(top of the scan below the word ghost) Basically telling us a ghost is something that was once inside a human.

Edit: I Apologize if this scan above is too blurry to make out the "out of human" text.

Ghosts in their normal state are simply different color translucent puff balls that have no tangible form as we see one phase right through the bushes after attacking the main characters sister.

The Hero Rosalyn can interact with ghosts in their natural intangible state as shown in a in-game scene were she slashes and destroys 2 ghosts and saves the main character. However, even she cannot interact with Epros physically.

So even characters with the ability to harm ghosts in their natural intangible state which are basically the thing that once in a human (more than likely the soul) cannot interact with Epros who is a ghost. Evil King Big Bull stated he felt Evil King Stan's soul within him] (though this could be seen as a metaphor but considering [URL=https://imgur.com/5Mn05cD]he had a part of Stan within him I doubt it was a metaphor) and some ghosts live in the underworld with the devil so they seem like spirits.

So this means ghosts are actually intangible souls that are classified as "out of human" (basically the soul of a human). So since people like Rosalyn can interact with and harm ghosts (souls) with her physical strikes but cannot touch/harm Epros and he's a ghost, that means even his soul is an illusion.

What type of Nonexistent Physiology?

I think he would be Type 1 Material Nonexistence and in regards to what Aspect of Nonexistence hed be, I assume 1 Spiritual Nonexistence since he's a ghost/soul that is just an illusion.

Nonexistent Physiology (Type 1, Aspect 1; Epros is a non-corporeal ghost and states that corporeal attacks are futile against him do to his form being an illusion. Even characters with the ability to interact with intangible ghosts cannot interact with him)

Hmmm... ok, I guess I can see the argument. Probably ok.

Going through the NEP category for other characters i know:

-Isekai at Peace characters lose NEP, all that's said is basically that they are nothingness, it's just Incorporeality.

-Spirit of the Eternity Sword characters should have nature type 1, aspect 1, as their bodies and souls are completely null, nothingness.

Given that their profiles say so already, I will take your word for it.

 

[imZer0Null]

Sources function mostly the same as "Dependent Concepts", except that they govern a living thing's entire existence across present, past and future, but I'd rather not debate what type of concept sources qualifies as atm.


I was under the impression that characters who were NEP Type 2 with the previous standards would be Nature Type 2 with the current standards.


I apologise for the confusing explanation then. I'll try to explain it better.
Graham has a "normal" source, like all other characters. Once that source is destroyed, his Source of Nothingness remains. Indeed, his Source of Nothingness is the lack of his normal source, which is why his Source of Nothingness doesn't function like other sources (he no longer has a body, soul/spirit, mind, or even existent magic power, despite having this "source"). This Source of Nothingness is definitely completely nonexistent tho.
This Source of Nothingness can be further reduced to nothing as well, after which a pure nothingness remains, described as "nothingness without reason/logic".
As far as I know, you can keep destroying this nothingness and further reduce it to nothingness, but as long as there is nothing, Graham will be able to reform his existence again. (This isn't the case in the presence of Venuzdonoa tho.)


Anos' source isn't literally nothingness like Graham's Source of Nothingness. His source is fused with Graham's nothingness, so if someone wants to interact with his source, they would first need to be able to interact with Graham's nothingness, which is why the novel describes it as using the nothingness as a "shield". This isn't activation based as far as I know.
I would personally be fine with Nature Type 3, Aspect Type 2 for Anos' source, because it seems to fit the following description: "Characters still exist, but paradoxically behave as if they don't when attacked."


No. My actual argument is that if it's consistently stated that a type 2 concept is the most fundamental aspect of a character's existence and that there exists nothing beyond it, then it would be incorrect to assume there does indeed exist something beyond it, like a type 1 concept.
Using your example (which seems like a false equivalence IMO), it would be more so that in a verse where it's consistently stated that the body is the most fundamental aspect of a character's existence and that there exists nothing beyond it, and yes souls were never mentioned, it would be incorrect to assume there does indeed exist something beyond it, like a soul. Again tho, your example seems like a false equivalence, so I can't properly support my argument using your example.
Anyways, why would it be automatically assumed that characters have a type 1 concept, despite it contradicting the story?

Bump.

 

[Antoniofer]

@DontTalkDT any comment about @Hl3_or_bust's reasoning from above? Unfortunately some issue happened from where I live and I lost internet connection, so I can only comment through the phone, and thus unable to give more sources properly in case you ask for it.

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

UKG is made of "Despair" as stated in her profile, which pretty much still exists in World of Wraith and being a Witch which concept doesn't exist.

Bumping this to see if this is enough for Nature Type 2 or 3.

 

[DontTalkDT]

@DontTalkDT any comment about @Hl3_or_bust's reasoning from above? Unfortunately some issue happened from where I live and I lost internet connection, so I can only comment through the phone, and thus unable to give more sources properly in case you ask for it.

This is a general response to the Anima-related stuff going on above because I can't be assed to constantly scroll up and down to respond to everything individually.

There are too many direct statements of people with Nemesis and the Etrien Gnosos being nonexistent to simply ignore it. Void Knight and similar people being "treated as corporeal" is no different than everyone and their mother in D&D being able to attack extra-planar beings who are all abstract. Additionally, basically every kind of nonexistence in Anima would be type 2, because the soul is equivalent to the concept in that setting and it makes a difference between simply not having a body and actually being nonexistent. Furthermore, Noth are easily the most blatant example of this to the point that there are literally no reasonable doubts to be had in their case.

I personally don't know anything about the Ghost Angel so I'll trust Antonio on that front.

I mean, all I can really say is that I have seen no real evidence of the claims for this. What I have seen isn't really supportive of the interpretation. Honestly, pretty sceptical regarding the "it's not physical, everyone just has the superpower to hurt it"-argument in particular. If throwing a stone at it could hurt it, it's just physical.

bump

Sorry, I seem to have missed that post. Let me see...

I was under the impression that characters who were NEP Type 2 with the previous standards would be Nature Type 2 with the current standards.

You're absolutely right, they would be! Provided they actually fulfilled the old definition of NEP Type 2 that is. That definition demanded "Such a state defies even the most basic logical principles and is unknowable in the truest form, as it is not a state at all. [...] In terms of binary, this would be something that is neither 1 nor 0, where 1 is existence and 0 is nonexistence."

If you can prove that your character fulfils the "neither 0 nor 1 requirement" then they, by all means, get Nature Type 2, no debate about that. Sadly, the old Type 2 at times landed on profiles without really meeting the requirements that were listed for it back then. Hence I like to take a look at the reasoning, just to make sure.

I apologise for the confusing explanation then. I'll try to explain it better.
Graham has a "normal" source, like all other characters. Once that source is destroyed, his Source of Nothingness remains. Indeed, his Source of Nothingness is the lack of his normal source, which is why his Source of Nothingness doesn't function like other sources (he no longer has a body, soul/spirit, mind, or even existent magic power, despite having this "source"). This Source of Nothingness is definitely completely nonexistent tho.
This Source of Nothingness can be further reduced to nothing as well, after which a pure nothingness remains, described as "nothingness without reason/logic".
As far as I know, you can keep destroying this nothingness and further reduce it to nothingness, but as long as there is nothing, Graham will be able to reform his existence again. (This isn't the case in the presence of Venuzdonoa tho.)

Alright, so if the source is accepted as a concept then Nature Type 1, Aspect Type 1 & 2 seems ok. Nature Type 3 for Aspect Type 3, as I assume he can still think even with a nonexistent mind. (If not, then Nature Type 1 instead)

I guess one can argue that if the source is accepted as concept then the source of nothingness is the concept of nothingness... well, in that case Nature Type 2 is fine instead of Type 1, I suppose.

Anos' source isn't literally nothingness like Graham's Source of Nothingness. His source is fused with Graham's nothingness, so if someone wants to interact with his source, they would first need to be able to interact with Graham's nothingness, which is why the novel describes it as using the nothingness as a "shield". This isn't activation based as far as I know.
I would personally be fine with Nature Type 3, Aspect Type 2 for Anos' source, because it seems to fit the following description: "Characters still exist, but paradoxically behave as if they don't when attacked."

That sounds like it makes sense.

No. My actual argument is that if it's consistently stated that a type 2 concept is the most fundamental aspect of a character's existence and that there exists nothing beyond it, then it would be incorrect to assume there does indeed exist something beyond it, like a type 1 concept.
Using your example (which seems like a false equivalence IMO), it would be more so that in a verse where it's consistently stated that the body is the most fundamental aspect of a character's existence and that there exists nothing beyond it, and yes souls were never mentioned, it would be incorrect to assume there does indeed exist something beyond it, like a soul. Again tho, your example seems like a false equivalence, so I can't properly support my argument using your example.
Anyways, why would it be automatically assumed that characters have a type 1 concept, despite it contradicting the story?

That's assuming that the characters are truly omniscient and their statement are absolute truth. If for instance a character in One Piece said that there is no more fundamental aspect to people than the soul, would you accept that they are immune to concept manipulation then, as they should lack such a more fundamental thing? I wouldn't. I would assume that One Piece characters just don't know about concepts and that the author didn't consider them.

Similar for your body example. Would you say in a verse in which the body is the most fundamental concepts don't exist? Personally, I wouldn't even necessarily believe souls don't exist in that verse, unless some character actually checked to make sure they don't.

Bumping this to see if this is enough for Nature Type 2 or 3.

Right, ehm... I know almost nothing about the verse. Have the supporters agreed on the facts now? If so, can you summarize their consensus again? (or simply quote the posts that explain the facts correctly)

 

[imZer0Null]

You're absolutely right, they would be! Provided they actually fulfilled the old definition of NEP Type 2 that is. That definition demanded "Such a state defies even the most basic logical principles and is unknowable in the truest form, as it is not a state at all. [...] In terms of binary, this would be something that is neither 1 nor 0, where 1 is existence and 0 is nonexistence."

If you can prove that your character fulfils the "neither 0 nor 1 requirement" then they, by all means, get Nature Type 2, no debate about that. Sadly, the old Type 2 at times landed on profiles without really meeting the requirements that were listed for it back then. Hence I like to take a look at the reasoning, just to make sure.

Oh okay. I understand. That's reasonable.

Alright, so if the source is accepted as a concept then Nature Type 1, Aspect Type 1 & 2 seems ok. Nature Type 3 for Aspect Type 3, as I assume he can still think even with a nonexistent mind. (If not, then Nature Type 1 instead)

I guess one can argue that if the source is accepted as concept then the source of nothingness is the concept of nothingness... well, in that case Nature Type 2 is fine instead of Type 1, I suppose.

Okay. Just for a bit of clarification, the novel directly refers to the source as "the fundamental concept of existence", so I'm not referring to the source as a concept because of my personal interpretation.

That sounds like it makes sense.

Okay. Just to confirm, since Anos utilises Graham's nothingness, should I list Graham's Nature Type in Anos' justification as well?
E.g. (Nature Type [Graham's Nature Type], 3, Aspect Type 2; ...)

That's assuming that the characters are truly omniscient and their statement are absolute truth. If for instance a character in One Piece said that there is no more fundamental aspect to people than the soul, would you accept that they are immune to concept manipulation then, as they should lack such a more fundamental thing? I wouldn't. I would assume that One Piece characters just don't know about concepts and that the author didn't consider them.

Similar for your body example. Would you say in a verse in which the body is the most fundamental concepts don't exist? Personally, I wouldn't even necessarily believe souls don't exist in that verse, unless some character actually checked to make sure they don't.

Indeed, there aren't any truly omniscient characters/narrators in Maou Gakuin as far as I know, but the statements come from some of the most knowledgeable and reliable characters in the verse. I realise they can still be wrong about certain things, but they are definitely not uninformed or unreliable characters.
The statement about the the source being "the fundamental concept of existence" is also from the novel's keyword, which is directly written by the author himself (i.e. it's not a character's words).
The idea that the source is the most fundamental aspect of a character's existence and that there exists nothing beyond it is also completely uncontradicted in the story so far, so I personally see no reason to not accept the statements as true.

I still feel like using the soul example is a false equivalence, as souls don't have different types like concepts do in this wiki, and also as I never argued that Maou Gakuin characters are completely "concept-less" (soulless by your example). Maou Gakuin characters also won't be immune to cm1, since IMO you still need cm1 resistance to resist cm1, even if cm1 is only affecting a type 2 concept (related to concept manip potency).

Anyways, I'd rather not debate the above topic further, as it seems like this is related to the wiki's standards regarding "universal assumptions" (like assuming all characters normally have a soul despite there being no evidence of souls even existing IRL), which I don't currently ever plan on trying to change.

 

[Reio35]

Alright, finished my work for the day, time to work through this. Won't do everything in one go, but I will get to everyone.


I don't quite get your reasoning as for them having no soul.

I would personally not give out NEP just for lacking emotions. If the character already gets NEP I don't mind Aspect Type 5 being added for that, though.


From what the profile states Nature Type 1; Aspect Type 2 seems fitting. Although I#m not sure what "Sensories" refers to.


That sounds correct, I think.


No. The aspects need to be of some nature, after all.


It would be paradoxical nonexistence, provided they meet the requirements of at least one of the Aspect Types.


If the souls exists, it doesn't matter where or on how high tier of a level it exists. It still exists.


I would ask you to please make a separate CRT and debate it with knowledgeable Bleach members there (you can link the thread here and I will give my opinion). On one hand Bleach will inevitably be controversial and on the other do these characters not have NEP yet, so they should recieve a more extensive review than just the updating of already accepted stuff we do here.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/bleach-none-existent-physiology.130558/

Heres the thread

 

[Regidian]

I mean... if you can touch him then he isn't really physically nonexistent? But ok, let's assume we take his body as an avatar or something and give NEP to just his true self without that physical shell... which aspects do you suggest? Same as Kama for being more nonexistent than her or more?

Nature type 2, how can we explain that he can't be affected by numerous hax because is non existance with the new standard? As if i understand having aspect 1,2,3,4 give only immunity to precise hax.

We tell it in aspect 5?

 

[PrinceofPein]

So this is for Shinza
What NEP would this be getting
1. Mercurius

Mercurius' sensory is described as empty. Like he's an illusion or a mere reflection of the moon, he possesses no force or pressure - essentially, he is not really there. Making all conventional attacks just pass through him),

He Is completely empty and possess no pressure or force, a mere illusion of life akin to a reflection, essentially doesn't really exist at all and was not even affected by Ren's Ber'iah which could reject the dead

2. Tenma Ootake
Possesses an enhanced version of Machina's Ber'iah, in which his very existence becomes pure nothingness which requires him to wear his armor to contain it

His 'being' is constructed of the very concept of nothingness itself, which needs to be contained by his armor, otherwise all those who look into his eyes would be erased from existence

3. Methuselah

Methuselah is all the darkness in the world, and a dependent of God who bears "some of the weight of the current God's law", and exists to keep "the world running as it was". Without him there would be no light or darkness, leaving those regions withemptiness. Erasing him causes damage to the worldly order and would lead to the creation of a void that would return all of creation to nothingness; He himself is a primeval personalized concept,

He is the personified embodiment of darkness of the world, born and shaped by humanity's thoughts of it and is an amalgamation of concepts that are associated with darkness such as death, war, diseases, natural calamities, and much more. Due to being a dependent of Mercurius's Law, his very being is composed of the novemdecillions amount of mystery of nights.

To put it simple he is the concept of darkness himself and exist as pure darkness

 

[Elizhaa]

I guess Yogiri's true form would be Nature Type 2 and Aspect 5; it's something that I saw in the verse discussion thread.
It is: Embodies and represents the nonexistence from which all of existence and nonexistence comes back to at their ends/deaths, with all of creation being entirely conceptual in the literal sense. It is essential a sentient void that predates all and will exist in the end.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Just a small note that I got pretty busy today. I will reply to all of this tomorrow.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Okay. Just to confirm, since Anos utilises Graham's nothingness, should I list Graham's Nature Type in Anos' justification as well?
E.g. (Nature Type [Graham's Nature Type], 3, Aspect Type 2; ...)

Actually, this depends a bit on what you intend to list exactly. I only thought of it now, but Anos himself isn't physically nonexistent, right? Technically we don't list NEP for physically existent characters.

It might be best to list it as Resistance or Immunity to Concept Manipulation Type 2, with the justification of "Anos' source is fused with Graham's nothingness (Nonexistent Physiology Nature Type [Graham's Nature Type], 3, Aspect Type 2), and he is capable of using the latter's nothingness as a "shield", which converts anything it interacts with into nothingness, to protect himself or to attack".

I don't know, how can we explain that he can't be affected by numerous hax because is non existance with the new standard? As if i understand having aspect 1,2,3,4 give only immunity to precise hax.

We tell it in aspect 5?

What numerous hax" are we talking about that isn't covered by the first four types? But yeah, generally anything not covered by the first four types goes to type 5, with a corresponding specification of what exactly.

I guess Yogiri's true form would be Nature Type 2 and Aspect 5; it's something that I saw in the verse discussion thread.
It is: Embodies and represents the nonexistence from which all of existence and nonexistence comes back to at their ends/deaths, with all of creation being entirely conceptual in the literal sense. It is essential a sentient void that predates all and will exist in the end.

If we are talking about a conceptual nonexistence wouldn't we also have Aspect Type 2? Or am I misunderstanding that?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/bleach-none-existent-physiology.130558/

Heres the thread

Seems like the staff in the thread are mostly in agreement and the issue is solved, so I will leave it to them, unless there are any questions.

So this is for Shinza
What NEP would this be getting
1. Mercurius

Mercurius' sensory is described as empty. Like he's an illusion or a mere reflection of the moon, he possesses no force or pressure - essentially, he is not really there. Making all conventional attacks just pass through him),

He Is completely empty and possess no pressure or force, a mere illusion of life akin to a reflection, essentially doesn't really exist at all and was not even affected by Ren's Ber'iah which could reject the dead

2. Tenma Ootake
Possesses an enhanced version of Machina's Ber'iah, in which his very existence becomes pure nothingness which requires him to wear his armor to contain it

His 'being' is constructed of the very concept of nothingness itself, which needs to be contained by his armor, otherwise all those who look into his eyes would be erased from existence

3. Methuselah

Methuselah is all the darkness in the world, and a dependent of God who bears "some of the weight of the current God's law", and exists to keep "the world running as it was". Without him there would be no light or darkness, leaving those regions withemptiness. Erasing him causes damage to the worldly order and would lead to the creation of a void that would return all of creation to nothingness; He himself is a primeval personalized concept,

He is the personified embodiment of darkness of the world, born and shaped by humanity's thoughts of it and is an amalgamation of concepts that are associated with darkness such as death, war, diseases, natural calamities, and much more. Due to being a dependent of Mercurius's Law, his very being is composed of the novemdecillions amount of mystery of nights.

To put it simple he is the concept of darkness himself and exist as pure darkness

1. Nature Type 1; Aspect Type 1. I wrote Aspect Type 2 earlier in this thread, but I think that was a typo in retrospect. His avatar has no body and no soul, so it should be spiritual nonexistence.

2. Being the concept of nothingness means he isn't Aspect Type 2. That aside, I would like a little more information. Is he Incorporeal without the armor? He is definitely an abstract entity from what you are saying. Do abstract entities in the verse have souls or not? Or, does he in particular lack a soul?

3. Mostly the same questions as for 2. He is an abstract, but is he incorporeal and does he lack a soul?

 

[Regidian]

What numerous hax" are we talking about that isn't covered by the first four types? But yeah, generally anything not covered by the first four types goes to type 5, with a corresponding specification of what exactly.

Causality, time, space, reality warping, law, probability, fate etc isn't covered by the four types no?

 

[Confluctor]

Oblivion (Marvel Comics)

Oblivion is a character from Marvel Comics. It is nonexistence itself, residing beyond the multiverse and all the abstract personifications that make up its totality. While entities such as Eternity, Infinity, Death and The Living Tribunal are connected to creation, and personify concepts...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Bit of a question, if you don't mind me asking.

I am remaking Oblivion's file and found out he is the complete nothingness itself. The final Void which is devoid of life, death, concepts, emotions, meaning, matter and energy, etc. Would it fit type 1 or type 2?

The avatars are devoid of everything, but at the same time, they embodie the concept of nonexistence.

 

[ZeedKZ]

The Player from The Magic Circle has this justification for his nonexistent physiology. In which aspect the fits for the new NEP?

Nonexistent Physiology (Exists as an erased memory)

 

[PrinceofPein]

2. Being the concept of nothingness means he isn't Aspect Type 2. That aside, I would like a little more information. Is he Incorporeal without the armor? He is definitely an abstract entity from what you are saying. Do abstract entities in the verse have souls or not? Or, does he in particular lack a soul?

Yes he is incorporeal without his armor simply put his craving is “not existing” or “bring an end to everything in existence” so he embodies that
And no he has a soul as only souls have cravings, but he himself and everything about him is nothingness the armor contains that for him, without the armor he is just plain nothingness that will erase anything
If this explanation is not enough I can try to find scans that explains it better

3. Mostly the same questions as for 2. He is an abstract, but is he incorporeal and does he lack a soul?

He is incorporeal and same as the one above he has a soul, but that soul is darkness itself, basically he is a living concept of darkness, e.g. evil thoughts in the hearts of men, shadows, nights e.t.c. He is all of these

 

[Elizhaa]

If we are talking about a conceptual nonexistence wouldn't we also have Aspect Type 2? Or am I misunderstanding that?

I think yes. I wanted to get more clarifications on Aspect Types since it is possible to have multiple Aspect Types.
Edit: I wanted to know if Yogiri could get multiple Aspect Types like all types since it has nothing even information.

 

[deonment]

So im here to talk abt SCP and pattern screamers, mainly 3930, since the rest share the same basics
So to lay down the fundamentals of what a pattern screamer in, they are basically holes within reality, existing so low that to go any lower is to step into oblivion, they are also described as either existing in a void and being non-beings or not existing several times over, there is other stuff about them but it isn't relevant to their nep
3930 on the other hand, hoo boy where do I begin, firstly it is stated to directly be a void, it has no dimension(s) (in context this is likely even extending to it not even existing to the point of being 0D), it isnt a point in time, it doesnt have metacontruct, or any other type of description that could be applied because they require existence, this includes things that descibe things in negative terms, so even if you call it nonexistent, or less than nothing, it still exhibits a state less than that, with all pheonemena that is exhibited by it being nothing more the human brain creating something where there isnt, its like hearing a sound out of white noise/static, seeing a pattern in the stars where there arent, stuff like that

bumping this

 

[Antoniofer]

I mean, all I can really say is that I have seen no real evidence of the claims for this. What I have seen isn't really supportive of the interpretation. Honestly, pretty sceptical regarding the "it's not physical, everyone just has the superpower to hurt it"-argument in particular. If throwing a stone at it could hurt it, it's just physical

@Hl3_or_bust, any comment about this? Also, they aren't losing their NEP due other people being able to touch them, but also because outside evidence suggests they have both soul and body. And remember, having no soul does not necessary means one is NE, see the zombies for example, they have no soul nor spirit, but they pretty much exist.

 

[Bobsican]

Can I get some thoughts on NEP stuff here?

 

[ZeedKZ]

The Player from The Magic Circle has this justification for his nonexistent physiology. In which aspect the fits for the new NEP?

Bump

 

[DontTalkDT]

Sorry for the delay again. Did an all-nighter to finish some work.

Causality, time, space, reality warping, law, probability, fate etc isn't covered by the four types no?

That depends a bit on the scope. Someone that is nonexistent will neither care about spatial cutting nor about time manip being used to age them. Neither would they be affected by common laws etc.
You can list it as type 5, too, I suppose. You just should link feats and add explanations then, as for why the resistance is definitely a consequence of nonexistence.

Oblivion (Marvel Comics)

Oblivion is a character from Marvel Comics. It is nonexistence itself, residing beyond the multiverse and all the abstract personifications that make up its totality. While entities such as Eternity, Infinity, Death and The Living Tribunal are connected to creation, and personify concepts...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Bit of a question, if you don't mind me asking.

I am remaking Oblivion's file and found out he is the complete nothingness itself. The final Void which is devoid of life, death, concepts, emotions, meaning, matter and energy, etc. Would it fit type 1 or type 2?

The avatars are devoid of everything, but at the same time, they embodie the concept of nonexistence.

Sounds like Nature Type 1, Aspect Type 2 from how you put it. If you can make an argument for lacking a soul Aspect type 1 as well.
Embodying the concept of nonexistence would mean they have a concept, so presumably the avatars wouldn't have Aspect Type 2 then. If they get NEP then depends on if they can make a case for another aspect type (commonly Aspect Type 1).

The Player from The Magic Circle has this justification for his nonexistent physiology. In which aspect the fits for the new NEP?

From what is said in the video, this is erasure of the body in particular and should hence likely just be incorporeality.

So im here to talk abt SCP and pattern screamers, mainly 3930, since the rest share the same basics
So to lay down the fundamentals of what a pattern screamer in, they are basically holes within reality, existing so low that to go any lower is to step into oblivion, they are also described as either existing in a void and being non-beings or not existing several times over, there is other stuff about them but it isn't relevant to their nep
3930 on the other hand, hoo boy where do I begin, firstly it is stated to directly be a void, it has no dimension(s) (in context this is likely even extending to it not even existing to the point of being 0D), it isnt a point in time, it doesnt have metacontruct, or any other type of description that could be applied because they require existence, this includes things that descibe things in negative terms, so even if you call it nonexistent, or less than nothing, it still exhibits a state less than that, with all pheonemena that is exhibited by it being nothing more the human brain creating something where there isnt, its like hearing a sound out of white noise/static, seeing a pattern in the stars where there arent, stuff like that

Whoops, this one slipped past me.
Besides acausality and physical nonexistence, this doesn't give us anything as far as the standard types are concerned. I would say Nature Type 1 (or maybe Nature type 3 as we are relying on a description of something undescribable?) and Aspect Type 5, with corresponding statements.

Yes he is incorporeal without his armor simply put his craving is “not existing” or “bring an end to everything in existence” so he embodies that
And no he has a soul as only souls have cravings, but he himself and everything about him is nothingness the armor contains that for him, without the armor he is just plain nothingness that will erase anything
If this explanation is not enough I can try to find scans that explains it better

3. Mostly the same questions as for 2. He is an abstract, but is he incorporeal and does he lack a soul?

He is incorporeal and same as the one above he has a soul, but that soul is darkness itself, basically he is a living concept of darkness, e.g. evil thoughts in the hearts of men, shadows, nights e.t.c. He is all of these

Those sound like incorporeality and abstract existence, but due to having a soul, concept etc. they probably don't qualify for NEP. At least from what you have told me.

I think yes. I wanted to get more clarifications on Aspect Types since it is possible to have multiple Aspect Types.
Edit: I wanted to know if Yogiri could get multiple Aspect Types like all types since it has nothing even information.

It's possible to have all of them. But do you have evidence for information and stuff?

 

[Confluctor]

Alright, thank you.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Those sound like incorporeality and abstract existence, but due to having a soul, concept etc. they probably don't qualify for NEP. At least from what you have told me.

1. Existing as a pure concept is not NEP?
2. Existing as nothingness also does not grant NEP?