No Game No Life Discussion Thread

[Satanichia_Chlammy_Mafahl]

Ig, Spirits Arms shouldn't be granted CM as it is just reactivated the inactive concept. I dunno if reactivated a concept will be counted as CM tho.

 

[Satanichia_Chlammy_Mafahl]

no one other than the Old Deus is capable of interacting with the Essence

an essence is basically an old deus, so wym?

 

[Lynieryz]

Ig, Spirits Arms shouldn't be granted CM as it is just reactivated the inactive concept. I dunno if reactivated a concept will be counted as CM tho.

I think it still counts but it will probably be limited.

an essence is basically an old deus, so wym?

Essence=Concept; Old Deus=Sentient Concept; When Holou manipulated concepts to create a macrocosm she was manipulating essence and an Old Deus who had not yet obtained sentience.

 

[Satanichia_Chlammy_Mafahl]

Essence=Concept; Old Deus=Sentient Concept; When Holou manipulated concepts to create a macrocosm she was manipulating essence and an Old Deus who had not yet obtained sentience.

That's almost right, but let me clarify.

A concept isn't always an essence or ether, but an essence certainly is a concept. Essence is simply a concept that has consciousness, gaining its identity as a god; thus, collectively these essences are called Old Deus.

 

[Satanichia_Chlammy_Mafahl]

This is why my initial response said that an essence (old deues) cannot change its own concept because it can only be influenced by external influences.

 

[Lynieryz]

That's almost right, but let me clarify.

A concept isn't always an essence or ether, but an essence certainly is a concept. Essence is simply a concept that has consciousness, gaining its identity as a god; thus, collectively these essences are called Old Deus.

So how are we disagreeing? DSA can manipulate all concepts through Essence an Old Deus can do the same as shown with Holou, the only difference between Concept and Essence is sentience.

This is why my initial response said that an essence (old deues) cannot change its own concept because it can only be influenced by external influences.

And I never disagreed with that? it was always about manipulating other concepts not your own concept.

 

[Satanichia_Chlammy_Mafahl]

So how are we disagreeing? DSA can manipulate all concepts through Essence an Old Deus can do the same as shown with Holou, the only difference between Concept and Essence is sentience.

Where do you find all essences can manipulate other concepts? I oppose this idea.

The context you provided only discusses how the essence or concept is activated using a technique to alter reality. In this case, the essence/concept of "big boobs" is activated, thus defining a reality where all females have large breasts. Nothing speaks essence can manipulate concepts.

You attempted to generalize the idea that because Holou is an ether that can create concepts, therefore other ethers can do the same too. This is just, a false premise.

Where in fact, I've mentioned earlier, this isn't a racial ability that anyone of that race can utilize. In Holou's case, she simply creates concepts that shape her microcosm through fundamental forces that are universal in nature, so this cant be scaled to others.

 

[Lynieryz]

Where do you find all essences can manipulate other concepts? I oppose this idea.

The context you provided only discusses how the essence or concept is activated using a technique to alter reality. In this case, the essence/concept of "big boobs" is activated, thus defining a reality where all females have large breasts. Nothing speaks essence can manipulate concepts.

You attempted to generalize the idea that because Holou is an ether that can create concepts, therefore other ethers can do the same too. This is just, a false premise.

Where in fact, I've mentioned earlier, this isn't a racial ability that anyone of that race can utilize. In Holou's case, she simply creates concepts that shape her microcosm through fundamental forces that are universal in nature, so this cant be scaled to others.

This doesn't make any sense, what you're saying would only work if Essence and Concept weren't the same but they are and the only difference is sentience which doesn't influence the result which is that an Old Deus is able to manipulate concepts/essences, and you have to prove that it is something exclusive to Holou since the Wiki works on "everything is a race ability until there's something that proves it isn't" in relation to races.

 

[Satanichia_Chlammy_Mafahl]

No worries, your premise is still a false one. You only arrived at that conclusion because it seemed logically valid, when in fact, it's not the case. It could be it if it phrased differently, like, Holou can do it because she's an Old Deus, just like the context, Old Deus don't need language to communicate, so the implication of the premise suggests it refers to a race, hence all of that race can do it.

Yeah the difference is that the ether (concept) is self-aware so they can act whereas the non-ether (concept) isn't. But textually, in the narrative, they're the same.

Let me tell you. Textually, the concept, ether, and Old Deus in the series is the same thing as they're written interchangeably. Like, how the kanji for Old Deus (神霊種, Shinreishu), uses (しんずい, Shinzui) as its furigana where it is the hiragana for 神髄 (essence/ether). The same goes for concept (概念), where its hiragana (がいねん, gainen) is used as furigana for both Old Deus and Ether.

So, if you have an issue with that, go ahead and vent to the author. And don't try to twist the facts by applying your interpretation just because you think it doesn't make sense.

And I'd like to reiterate that the context you provided, what Essence does isn't Conceptual Manipulation, but it's Spirit Arms does. The Essence/Concept simply just defines reality (a concept creates reality) after it's reactivated by Spirit Arms, and that doesn't correspond to what Holou does; a concept creates another concept to create reality. So basically it ain't the same.

And as I've mentioned again and again before, what's referred to as ether doesn't have its own original power apart from creating reality and serving as its fundamental foundation, their superpower abilities like space manipulation, time manipulation, existenxe erasure are performed because they manipulate the fundamental universal force (spirits), to actualized it (to do magic). If there are no powers (spirits) itself they essentially exist as powerless abstract ideas, this's also why when the very power itself (Spirit Circuits) is destroyed, everything with an affinity for magic becomes powerless, including the Old Deus/Ether.

 

[Lynieryz]

No worries, your premise is still a false one. You only arrived at that conclusion because it seemed logically valid, when in fact, it's not the case. It could be it if it phrased differently, like, Holou can do it because she's an Old Deus, just like the context, Old Deus don't need language to communicate, so the implication of the premise suggests it refers to a race, hence all of that race can do it.

Yeah the difference is that the ether (concept) is self-aware so they can act whereas the non-ether (concept) isn't. But textually, in the narrative, they're the same.

Let me tell you. Textually, the concept, ether, and Old Deus in the series is the same thing as they're written interchangeably. Like, how the kanji for Old Deus (神霊種, Shinreishu), uses (しんずい, Shinzui) as its furigana where it is the hiragana for 神髄 (essence/ether). The same goes for concept (概念), where its hiragana (がいねん, gainen) is used as furigana for both Old Deus and Ether.

So, if you have an issue with that, go ahead and vent to the author. And don't try to twist the facts by applying your interpretation just because you think it doesn't make sense.

And I'd like to reiterate that the context you provided, what Essence does isn't Conceptual Manipulation, but it's Spirit Arms does. The Essence/Concept simply just defines reality (a concept creates reality) after it's reactivated by Spirit Arms, and that doesn't correspond to what Holou does; a concept creates another concept to create reality. So basically it ain't the same.

And as I've mentioned again and again before, what's referred to as ether doesn't have its own original power apart from creating reality and serving as its fundamental foundation, their superpower abilities like space manipulation, time manipulation, existenxe erasure are performed because they manipulate the fundamental universal force (spirits), to actualized it (to do magic). If there are no powers (spirits) itself they essentially exist as powerless abstract ideas, this's also why when the very power itself (Spirit Circuits) is destroyed, everything with an affinity for magic becomes powerless, including the Old Deus/Ether.

??? I agree with 99% of what you said, I think you didn't understand what I've been saying all this time or you didn't understand what you wrote yourself.

¹The only difference between a Concept and Essence is sentience.[This is a fact, this is the only difference between them stated in the work]

²Holou manipulated concepts period, and it is the same as manipulating essence.[You have not provided any proof that it is not an ability of the race]

³Essence allows the manipulation of all concepts that exist.[And this is not something from the DSA because if it were, it would not be necessary to use Essence]

⁴I agree with you on ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING I didn't just mention.

 

[Satanichia_Chlammy_Mafahl]

I dont feel like I just dont get what you mean.

Ether is still just a concept, it's just like a label for concepts that have a certain identity and form. Ontologically, it's no different from other concepts; they're all abstract ideas that define something and underpin reality. As I said, textually they're not distinguished, but in specific contexts, they might be.

Holou manipulated concepts period, and it is the same as manipulating essence

Holou doesnt manipulate concept from ether but rather concept from non-ether.

You have not provided any proof that it is not an ability of the race

And you have not provided any proof that it is an ability of the race, while in fact, narratively it's said performed by an individual not even explicitly said can be performed by a race.

Essence allows the manipulation of all concepts that exist.

Saying that essence can manipulate all concepts isn't true because that goes against statements in the ln that opposite that idea, but it could be justified in some specific cases, like Suniaster, which is the essence or concept of omnipotence can rule all ethers (old deus).

 

[Lynieryz]

Holou doesnt manipulate concept from ether but rather concept from non-ether.

Yes? I was never against it, the difference is insignificant as it is only sentient and non-sentient.

And you have not provided any proof that it is an ability of the race, while in fact, narratively it's said performed by an individual not even explicitly said can be performed by a race.

Because I don't need to prove it because it is the Wiki standard that the ability that an individual of a race performed is characteristic of the race until there is some indication that it is not.

Saying that essence can manipulate all concepts isn't true because that goes against statements in the ln that opposite that idea, but it could be justified in some specific cases, like Suniaster, which is the essence or concept of omnipotence can rule all ethers (old deus).

They can manipulate any concept, the only limitation for DSA is that you can only manipulate one concept per core and this is not a limitation of the essence but of the DSA.

“That said, it is a system to virtually revive inactive essence for conceptual rewrite with the target, it is. That means that, when it stops, all reverts to normal, it does—and it can only rewrite the concept specified in the false essence, it can.”

 

[Satanichia_Chlammy_Mafahl]

Because I don't need to prove it because it is the Wiki standard that the ability that an individual of a race performed is characteristic of the race until there is some indication that it is not.

Is that so? Could you please clarify where that standard is stated, or is it simply your own standard?

By your logic, it doesn't make sense and leads to NLF because you arbitrarily scaling each other without proof stating that every character shares the same properties and abilities. It's like, for analogy's sake, there's a verse with two person within it; both are human. The former can perform something beyond comprehension, while the latter cannot. However, using your logic would change the facts; because both are human therefore they should share the same abilities, not only limited to that one person, but all human ppl will have the same abilities as the first, even though, in fact it's never stated as such.

 

[Lynieryz]

Is that so? Could you please clarify where that standard is stated, or is it simply your own standard?

By your logic, it doesn't make sense and leads to NLF because you arbitrarily scaling each other without proof stating that every character shares the same properties and abilities. It's like, for analogy's sake, there's a verse with two person within it; both are human. The former can perform something beyond comprehension, while the latter cannot. However, using your logic would change the facts; because both are human therefore they should share the same abilities, not only limited to that one person, but all human ppl will have the same abilities as the first, even though, in fact it's never stated as such.

This does not need to be said as it is already an inherent characteristic of what a species is, so it is assumed as such until there is proof of the opposite.

• Soul Physiology

• Shinigami Physiology
• Hollow Physiology
• Quincy Physiology
• Fullbringer Physiology

 

[Satanichia_Chlammy_Mafahl]

Meh, Im looking for the standards page or whatever that has the standards are listed out, not looking for examples of them. Logically, if there are examples, then, theres gotta be something that I'm looking for.

 

[Lynieryz]

Meh, Im looking for the standards page or whatever that has the standards are listed out, not looking for examples of them. Logically, if there are examples, then, theres gotta be something that I'm looking for.

It doesn't exist, it's just one of those things that has always been judged with common sense.