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No Game No Life Discussion Thread

Satanichia_Chlammy_Mafahl

Satanichia_Chlammy_Mafahl

She/Her
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Discuss anything related to No Game No Life.

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[No Game No Life] Jibril's hax

And taking advantage of the fact that it is something self-evident, Jibril should have: Time Travel, Summoning (Through Space-Time shift, Jibril can summon a version of herself from the past) Time Stop (Through Space-Time shift, Jibril can stop time) Resistance to Power Nullification (Ja La...
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Lynieryz said:
Artosh's Heaven's Strike.
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I do think so. Well, even when he released it, it still couldn't be compared to any of the existing powers, not even the attacks of the other Old Dei, they are speechless and showed a little fear when seeing it. At that time Artosh was indeed the strongest, even acknowledged by the author saying that Artosh could flatten the entire surface and wipe out all life with a single attack. Unfortunately, the plot didnt go in that way.
 
Satanichia_Chlammy_Mafahl said:
I do think so. Well, even when he released it, it still couldn't be compared to any of the existing powers, not even the attacks of the other Old Dei, they are speechless and showed a little fear when seeing it. At that time Artosh was indeed the strongest, even acknowledged by the author saying that Artosh could flatten the entire surface and wipe out all life with a single attack. Unfortunately, the plot didnt go in that way.
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Couldn't this be calculated?
 
Shouldn't Old Deus have type 1 conceptual manipulation? Since their true selves exist only as essence[Type 1] and essence can be manipulated to rewrite any concept.
“The shoulder-mounted unit is a spirit arm for conceptual rewriting, it is.”
……
“I’m told it’s a conceptual rewrite machine, which repurposes inactive essence used in the E-bomb…the materialized fossil of a divine concept. It uses seal rites to alter the underlying concept. So it depends on false essence, it does…”
………………
The response was silence. Sora and Shiro narrowed their eyes to speak for themselves—and for Chlammy and perhaps all Immanity, or perhaps everyone with common sense, while they were at it. Yes…
“Jibril… Around what level of holy shit is your holy-shit meter clocking in at?”
“…Is it at…holy shit…or holy ******* shit…or **** this shit, I’m out?”
Ah, I see—that’s some incomprehensible shit!!
So it altered the bullshit of the bullshit with some other bullshit… Well, then. That was about as boldly heartburn-inducing as putting meat inside meat inside meat and calling it a hamburger.
—So what you’re saying is it’s bullshit, said the vulgar two with world-weary eyes.
“Well said, Master. It is a sacred progenitor, sublime bearer, and superlative apotheosis of feces. *”
Jibril, representing those to whom common sense was foreign, laughed that Til’s brain was rather divinely shit.
“If that were possible, then it should be equally possible to simply make one’s opponent lose conceptually.”
Having finally got the concept, Sora and Shiro silently went, Ah…
—Conceptually—i.e., in fundamental meaning…
……you could rewrite your opponent’s concepts……?
“Huh? What, so you’re saying they could just rewrite you as the loser and then you’d lose unconditionally?”
It would just become the case that you lost, without regard for process, circumstance, or cause and effect…? No wonder Ms. Bullshit herself was calling it bullshit… I mean, what? D00d. That was already beyond the level of cheats or exploits. That was like you just ran any code you wanted. This shit wasn’t even a game anymore, Sora suspected. But:
“You are correct, you are… It is without exaggeration a divine spirit arm, it is.”
Til looked straight back at him and nodded. She continued regardless of Sora’s dumbfounded shock.
“That said, it is a system to virtually revive inactive essence for conceptual rewrite with the target, it is. That means that, when it stops, all reverts to normal, it does—and it can only rewrite the concept specified in the false essence, it can.”
And, most importantly… The elevator had gone past the giant humanoid robot, at which Til now looked far down…as she gave an empty smile and murmured flatly.
“That—is no great shakes, it’s not.”
“…Masters. It seems she was correct in describing herself as less than a mole. Please do not take her seriously…”
Jibril called Til out for acting so as to deceive her masters. Sora thought.
“To begin with, no one has ever been able to elucidate what essence is.”
…Indeed. Even Holou, an Old Deus herself, had agonized over it for hundreds of millions of years.
“And she says they falsify it…? I have never heard such presumptuous rubbish even in jest.”
…Indeed. She was saying they’d already uncovered it six thousand years ago, even used it, and had kept even a rumor of it from reaching Jibril…while putting it on display so carelessly? Bullshit. That was impossible. Jibril was right, he thought…but—
“…You’re right, you are. We’ve not explained it, we’ve not. Goes without saying, it does.”
—Sora was sure that Til, speaking so plainly, wasn’t lying, either.
“…It’s a product of that divine realm only one…Lóni Drauvnir…ever laid eyes on, it is…”
In that case, there were two possibilities. Either Til was mistaken, and it was impossible…or……
“Oy, Niecey. Talkin’ shit, are ye? Take that back.”
The doors hummed open as the elevator stopped on the 508th floor. And from beyond, the man’s booming voice spoke the truth. Yes, the atmosphere surrounding the man who loomed before them once again, now on a mechanical throne, his chin on his hand, spoke the truth. A different man from the drunkard they’d seen, now smiling with the brutal might of one at the top, spoke the truth. The orichalcum eye burning red-hot from within the messily cut, gray—no, mithril—hair, accompanied by the fitting raiment and the lethargic attitude of a man whose arrogance is well justified, spoke the truth:
“Only one ever laid eyes on that divine realm before—”
A genius unprecedented in the history of Dwarves had gotten there—but he wasn’t the last. His greatsword leaning against the throne, the current chieftain of Hardenfell crossed his legs proudly. Veig Drauvnir spoke…
The alternative was*someone had made the impossible possible.
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What was essence? Veig still didn’t know. It was only natural… Ocain, an Old Deus himself, didn’t know.
Yes—Lóni Drauvnir, Veig Drauvnir. And Nýi Tilvilg. That falsely ethereal thing only they three had found was not a “divine realm.”
It was actually an artificial creation of gods…
Even the god could neither create nor imagine such a realm, yet not one of them realized this. He thought back to that Great War—to that Suniaster he’d sought in order to rebuild the world—and he chuckled.
“…I’m just the god of the forge, after all… A clown who doesn’t know anything but effort, I guess.”
Yes…at last he understood those who’d declared they’d destroy space, and he understood his children. Snickering, he thought:
“…To build a Suniaster your own damn self… That ain’t occurred to me, I gotta say.”
To build an omniscient, omnipotent concept… Interesting folks, all right. Wouldn’t be bad to give it a try, huh? The god of the forge grinned. It was, after all, the duty of children to surpass their parents. And he hadn’t even realized they’d already done that six thousand years before. Looks like I’m quite the fool myself, huh…?
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Lynieryz said:
Shouldn't Old Deus have type 1 conceptual manipulation? Since their true selves exist only as essence[Type 1] and essence can be manipulated to rewrite any concept.
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Well I don't think so, because they've never been shown to manipulate concept directly.

However, I can see the Spirit Arms getting it, as it directly manipulates the concept within the inactive essence (fossilized Old Deus). It reactivates the concept within the inactive essence using craving techniques (rites).
 
Satanichia_Chlammy_Mafahl said:
Well I don't think so, because they've never been shown to manipulate concept directly.

However, I can see the Spirit Arms getting it, as it directly manipulates the concept within the inactive essence (fossilized Old Deus). It reactivates the concept within the inactive essence using craving techniques (rites).
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I'm more following the logic that this is recontextualized because Ether can manipulate any concept.
Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2; Capable of re-create the universe on a scale of microcosm by creating the concept that forms it[8])
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And Elves should have type 2 conceptual manipulation.
“We shall split the concepts that constitute us into thirty-two pieces each—and play Othello.”
Playing in his hand with a piece with white on one side, black on the other, with a numeral engraved, Sora continues.
“The pieces have numbers engraved, lower numbers for more important concepts. Like your memories, personality, body, and stuff, I guess? Otherwise it’s just normal Othello. You flip over the opponent’s pieces—and take the opponent’s existence.”
The game Sora had thought of, Jibril had provided the power source for, and the Elf girl had woven. Though Sora explained the rules casually, they were by no means ordinary, and everyone swallowed audibly from the tension.
“Also note that importance is judged by the game’s magic according to their importance in your unconscious. Which would mean that you can’t tell yourself what pieces govern what.”
Sora seemed quite happy, but—
“…You don’t know what you’re gonna lose given which pieces are taken—is that a rush or what?”
To Sora, stirring up madness in his eyes—Chlammy responds with eyes calm and cold.
“I want to expose your true identity and backers. You want to expose as much as possible of Elven Gard’s hand. It does seem a game in which our interests would be aligned.”
“Correct. And then, the winner gets back everything that was theirs—and the loser gets back nothing.”
At the meaning of these words, a chill jolts down Steph’s spine.
“—If you lose your personality and then lose the game—ha-ha, now that’ll be something, won’t it?
“Oh, and one more thing. Unlike normal Othello, you don’t get to pass. Even if there’s no place you can play your piece to capture, you still have to play it. I’m sure you can imagine the endgame in such a situation, in which you have to place the pieces with low numbers…right?”
But Chlammy, seemingly unintimidated, keenly points out a hole in the rules.
“Then—what happens when you physically can’t continue?”
They’d lose their senses, their very bodies, their memories of the game, etc.
“For each of us… In my case, Shiro or one of the other two will play for me. For you, it’ll be that sweet little Elf girl. Therefore, everyone here is a participant —all of us together are going to start a game under Aschente.”
But that still leaves a question unresolved—namely.
“But, in the course of taking everything from the opponent, it is quite conceivable that all memories of oneself might be taken from one’s allies, so that’s when you really can’t continue. The game’s over. Whoever has the most pieces wins.
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“We’ll need an objective judge of victory, so we’ll have the game board itself do it. Yeah?”
“Why, that’s quite so. I have, after all, woven the rite thus already.”
“I, too, have confirmed this. Please be at ease, Master.”
The Elf girl who is Chlammy’s partner and Jibril each nod. Jibril’s eyes deny the most threatening possibility—that there could be a trick. Mm, Sora nods and continues.
“—But for everything to go back the way it was after the game is over…would be boring, wouldn’t it?”
Yes, this is magic. But even with the massive power supplied by Jibril, it is not possible to make the results permanent. Reading Chlammy’s inner wish to wipe out Sora’s very existence, Sora smirks.
“To make results persist after the game—there are two things we’re gonna bet.”
Raising one finger, Sora went, first.
“One is permanent setting of the game results —i.e., of the erasure, trading, and retention of the traces of each other’s existence we’ve transferred back and forth. And, apart from that, we’ll get one other demand.”
Anticipating his intent, Chlammy continues.
“…And that is your real demand, I take it?”
“Indubitably. Without that, even if you managed to wipe out my existence, you couldn’t do anything about Shiro.”
That is, after all, Chlammy’s goal as she aims to usurp the role of agent plenipotentiary of Immanity, he hints.
“Likewise, I would be unable to get your Elf. It follows that our second demand—”
“—is to take each other’s partner, I see.”
In other words, if Chlammy wins, she’ll get Shiro with her memories of Sora lost—the agent plenipotentiary of Immanity. And, if Sora wins, he’ll get the greatest mage of Elven Gard.
“But, you know, we’ll still say you can change your demand after you win.”
At this, Chlammy smiled superciliously.
“…Do you think I will take pity on you and allow you to exist?”
“Ha-ha, that’s a good one; of course not.”
Sora, smiling right back and dismissing the notion, peers into Chlammy’s eyes.
“If I’m gone, even if you bind Shiro by the Covenants, she’ll probably be of no use. And I can assume the same about yours. So retention might not do it—we might need a covenant of suicide or personality change—ya know?”
A tremor goes down the spines of everyone present except Shiro and Sora.
“So, to sum things up—we’re gonna take from each other, betting each other’s existence and the right to kill our partners.”
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And shouldn't Dwarves have access to all the sealing rites? Because they are extremely more advanced in sealing rites than the Elves.
Apparently, he was the Dwarven leader toward the end of the War. He’d invented seal rites and put together spirit arms. A revolutionary craftsman. Spirit arms—operated by synchronization with the cores of transforming machines built from countless catalysts. They allowed Dwarves to emulate the ability that had been exclusive to Elf—multi-casting. Along with the race’s natural dexterity, they allowed Dwarves to compile extremely precise and complex rites that even outdid the Elves’. Moreover, it was said that this man had well-nigh created all of the other weapons from the final period of the War single-handedly.
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The rules were so lenient because Veig, naturally, was confident he would win even against an Ex Machina or Old Deus. None of the Ixseeds could rival Dwarves when it came to seal rites and machine manufacturing. No one alive could build a spirit arm better than Veig could. The upshot being that this was a game Veig was sure to win……
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Lynieryz said:
And shouldn't Dwarves have access to all the sealing rites? Because they are extremely more advanced in sealing rites than the Elves.
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I'm not sure, I don't think they should. They are just more advanced in the rites they have developed, and thus they can comparable to a caster that can perform multi-casting, as we can see in Practical War Game when Loni and Shinku. Doesn't mean they can use all the rites tho.
 
Lynieryz said:
I'm more following the logic that this is recontextualized because Ether can manipulate any concept.
Click to expand...
I don't get why you're coming to that conclusion. All you've provided is about the mechanism of conceptual writing by Spirit Arms. In this scenario, Spirit Arms extracts the concept from the essence/ether of the inactive Old Deus, specifically the concept of Big Boobs, which is then immediately manipulated to alter reality.

As explained in Volume 9 by Ex-Machina—Einzig, it's stated that a concept cannot change itself; it requires external influence. So, regarding Holou's case, she is indeed an ether, but she didn't manipulate her own concept, which is the concept of wisdom. Instead, she creates a concept of a reality that she governs through the power of Spirit, which is literally the source of everything and the flow of all life.
 
Satanichia_Chlammy_Mafahl said:
I'm not sure, I don't think they should. They are just more advanced in the rites they have developed, and thus they can comparable to a caster that can perform multi-casting, as we can see in Practical War Game when Loni and Shinku. Doesn't mean they can use all the rites tho.
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Yes, but because they are extremely more advanced, they probably have better versions of the sealing rites that Elves are capable of performing.
Satanichia_Chlammy_Mafahl said:
I don't get why you're coming to that conclusion. All you've provided is about the mechanism of conceptual writing by Spirit Arms. In this scenario, Spirit Arms extracts the concept from the essence/ether of the inactive Old Deus, specifically the concept of Big Boobs, which is then immediately manipulated to alter reality.

As explained in Volume 9 by Ex-Machina—Einzig, it's stated that a concept cannot change itself; it requires external influence. So, regarding Holou's case, she is indeed an ether, but she didn't manipulate her own concept, which is the concept of wisdom. Instead, she creates a concept of a reality that she governs through the power of Spirit, which is literally the source of everything and the flow of all life.
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Yes, but through their own Ether they are able to manipulate other concepts like Holou did and that is what I am referring to.
 
No, they shouldnt be treated that way. I still don't think they should've had the same abilities just because they're basically alike. It's okay if it's just about their physiology, since they're made of the same stuff.

Plus, it's not about racial ability— that can be used by anyone of that race; it's more about individual ability. Also, their power basically isn't theirs. To actualize their abilities they just borrow universal force in the world i.e spirit circuits, thus this thing is called magic.
 
Satanichia_Chlammy_Mafahl said:
No, they shouldnt be treated that way. I still don't think they should've had the same abilities just because they're basically alike. It's okay if it's just about their physiology, since they're made of the same stuff.
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This is literally not the reason I gave. Essence is what gives the ability to manipulate every concept, and they literally are Essence. This is the same as saying that someone made of fire is not capable of burning someone, when the very fact that someone is made of fire leads them to be able to burn someone, as this is a characteristic of fire, just as manipulating concepts is a characteristic of essence, as it is what makes the Divine Spirits Arms [DSA] capable of manipulating every concept. If what you said were true, DSA would not be able to manipulate every concept through Essence; in fact, according to your logic, it would not be able to manipulate concepts.
Satanichia_Chlammy_Mafahl said:
Plus, it's not about racial ability— that can be used by anyone of that race; it's more about individual ability. Also, their power basically isn't theirs. To actualize their abilities they just borrow universal force in the world i.e spirit circuits, thus this thing is called magic.
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Literally a nothing burger, extremely generic and meaningless to the discussion itself.
 
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Satanichia_Chlammy_Mafahl said:
Can you elaborate on what you mean by this?
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Essence itself is what allows concepts to be changed and not the DSA, what the DSA does is allow interaction/control over the Essence.
“You see, Dora, this is the conceptual rewrite of ‘big boob(?) essence’—”
“Analysis: Bust value of woman of unknown name. Provisionally categorized under handle ‘megatits.’ Very niche support.’”
“What are you talking about?! These are going to turn back, aren’t they? I can’t live like this!”
“Why, I’m fine if we don’t turn back, insofar as I’ve happened to match Chlammy. *”
“You must be joking! Why do I have even less now?! I won’t tolerate having no boobs! Hey, Fi, saying your small boobs match me, are you indirectly dissing me?! Give me back my boobs!”
“Query: This unit’s bust provisionally categorized under ‘ample bosom’… Questioning conceptual rewrite of ‘big boob essence.’”
“You see, it is not ‘big boob essence’ but ‘big boob(?) essence’—”
And there the ladies cavorted, their boobs changing randomly. Exactly as in the experiment four days earlier, except that this time it worked without an explosion. The conceptual rewriter used Lóni Drauvnir’s “big boob essence” along with one other false essence. Yes, just the same thing had happened as four days ago—instead of an explosion, it was its by-product. In other words:
“To summarize, it seems to be as in the experiment of four days ago, when, according to the sublime teachings of my masters, I engraved on unprocessed essence a seal identical to that for the big boob essence and activated this unidentified essence,” Jibril rehashed for the two who hadn’t been there. “I posit that a two-way reaction with the big boob essence has generated a composite conceptual rewrite.”
Indeed…the principle was unknown. No one even understood how conceptual falsification worked. Thus, even Jibril was unable to explicate or elucidate this incomprehensibility. But she described it in words in such a rough manner as was possible. So:
“In short—the conceptual rewrite is in the form of a question: ‘Are these big boobs?’”
“These clearly cannot be described as big boobs!”
“Yes, you see, it is ‘big boob(?) essence,’ such as to make everyone ask, ‘These are big boobs?’”
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