No Game No Life Discussion Thread

[Satanichia_Chlammy_Mafahl]

no one other than the Old Deus is capable of interacting with the Essence

an essence is basically an old deus, so wym?

 

[Lynieryz]

Ig, Spirits Arms shouldn't be granted CM as it is just reactivated the inactive concept. I dunno if reactivated a concept will be counted as CM tho.

I think it still counts but it will probably be limited.

an essence is basically an old deus, so wym?

Essence=Concept; Old Deus=Sentient Concept; When Holou manipulated concepts to create a macrocosm she was manipulating essence and an Old Deus who had not yet obtained sentience.

 

[Satanichia_Chlammy_Mafahl]

Essence=Concept; Old Deus=Sentient Concept; When Holou manipulated concepts to create a macrocosm she was manipulating essence and an Old Deus who had not yet obtained sentience.

That's almost right, but let me clarify.

A concept isn't always an essence or ether, but an essence certainly is a concept. Essence is simply a concept that has consciousness, gaining its identity as a god; thus, collectively these essences are called Old Deus.

 

[Satanichia_Chlammy_Mafahl]

This is why my initial response said that an essence (old deues) cannot change its own concept because it can only be influenced by external influences.

 

[Lynieryz]

That's almost right, but let me clarify.

A concept isn't always an essence or ether, but an essence certainly is a concept. Essence is simply a concept that has consciousness, gaining its identity as a god; thus, collectively these essences are called Old Deus.

So how are we disagreeing? DSA can manipulate all concepts through Essence an Old Deus can do the same as shown with Holou, the only difference between Concept and Essence is sentience.

This is why my initial response said that an essence (old deues) cannot change its own concept because it can only be influenced by external influences.

And I never disagreed with that? it was always about manipulating other concepts not your own concept.

 

[Satanichia_Chlammy_Mafahl]

So how are we disagreeing? DSA can manipulate all concepts through Essence an Old Deus can do the same as shown with Holou, the only difference between Concept and Essence is sentience.

Where do you find all essences can manipulate other concepts? I oppose this idea.

The context you provided only discusses how the essence or concept is activated using a technique to alter reality. In this case, the essence/concept of "big boobs" is activated, thus defining a reality where all females have large breasts. Nothing speaks essence can manipulate concepts.

You attempted to generalize the idea that because Holou is an ether that can create concepts, therefore other ethers can do the same too. This is just, a false premise.

Where in fact, I've mentioned earlier, this isn't a racial ability that anyone of that race can utilize. In Holou's case, she simply creates concepts that shape her microcosm through fundamental forces that are universal in nature, so this cant be scaled to others.

 

[Lynieryz]

Where do you find all essences can manipulate other concepts? I oppose this idea.

The context you provided only discusses how the essence or concept is activated using a technique to alter reality. In this case, the essence/concept of "big boobs" is activated, thus defining a reality where all females have large breasts. Nothing speaks essence can manipulate concepts.

You attempted to generalize the idea that because Holou is an ether that can create concepts, therefore other ethers can do the same too. This is just, a false premise.

Where in fact, I've mentioned earlier, this isn't a racial ability that anyone of that race can utilize. In Holou's case, she simply creates concepts that shape her microcosm through fundamental forces that are universal in nature, so this cant be scaled to others.

This doesn't make any sense, what you're saying would only work if Essence and Concept weren't the same but they are and the only difference is sentience which doesn't influence the result which is that an Old Deus is able to manipulate concepts/essences, and you have to prove that it is something exclusive to Holou since the Wiki works on "everything is a race ability until there's something that proves it isn't" in relation to races.

 

[Satanichia_Chlammy_Mafahl]

No worries, your premise is still a false one. You only arrived at that conclusion because it seemed logically valid, when in fact, it's not the case. It could be it if it phrased differently, like, Holou can do it because she's an Old Deus, just like the context, Old Deus don't need language to communicate, so the implication of the premise suggests it refers to a race, hence all of that race can do it.

Yeah the difference is that the ether (concept) is self-aware so they can act whereas the non-ether (concept) isn't. But textually, in the narrative, they're the same.

Let me tell you. Textually, the concept, ether, and Old Deus in the series is the same thing as they're written interchangeably. Like, how the kanji for Old Deus (神霊種, Shinreishu), uses (しんずい, Shinzui) as its furigana where it is the hiragana for 神髄 (essence/ether). The same goes for concept (概念), where its hiragana (がいねん, gainen) is used as furigana for both Old Deus and Ether.

So, if you have an issue with that, go ahead and vent to the author. And don't try to twist the facts by applying your interpretation just because you think it doesn't make sense.

And I'd like to reiterate that the context you provided, what Essence does isn't Conceptual Manipulation, but it's Spirit Arms does. The Essence/Concept simply just defines reality (a concept creates reality) after it's reactivated by Spirit Arms, and that doesn't correspond to what Holou does; a concept creates another concept to create reality. So basically it ain't the same.

And as I've mentioned again and again before, what's referred to as ether doesn't have its own original power apart from creating reality and serving as its fundamental foundation, their superpower abilities like space manipulation, time manipulation, existenxe erasure are performed because they manipulate the fundamental universal force (spirits), to actualized it (to do magic). If there are no powers (spirits) itself they essentially exist as powerless abstract ideas, this's also why when the very power itself (Spirit Circuits) is destroyed, everything with an affinity for magic becomes powerless, including the Old Deus/Ether.

 

[Lynieryz]

No worries, your premise is still a false one. You only arrived at that conclusion because it seemed logically valid, when in fact, it's not the case. It could be it if it phrased differently, like, Holou can do it because she's an Old Deus, just like the context, Old Deus don't need language to communicate, so the implication of the premise suggests it refers to a race, hence all of that race can do it.

Yeah the difference is that the ether (concept) is self-aware so they can act whereas the non-ether (concept) isn't. But textually, in the narrative, they're the same.

Let me tell you. Textually, the concept, ether, and Old Deus in the series is the same thing as they're written interchangeably. Like, how the kanji for Old Deus (神霊種, Shinreishu), uses (しんずい, Shinzui) as its furigana where it is the hiragana for 神髄 (essence/ether). The same goes for concept (概念), where its hiragana (がいねん, gainen) is used as furigana for both Old Deus and Ether.

So, if you have an issue with that, go ahead and vent to the author. And don't try to twist the facts by applying your interpretation just because you think it doesn't make sense.

And I'd like to reiterate that the context you provided, what Essence does isn't Conceptual Manipulation, but it's Spirit Arms does. The Essence/Concept simply just defines reality (a concept creates reality) after it's reactivated by Spirit Arms, and that doesn't correspond to what Holou does; a concept creates another concept to create reality. So basically it ain't the same.

And as I've mentioned again and again before, what's referred to as ether doesn't have its own original power apart from creating reality and serving as its fundamental foundation, their superpower abilities like space manipulation, time manipulation, existenxe erasure are performed because they manipulate the fundamental universal force (spirits), to actualized it (to do magic). If there are no powers (spirits) itself they essentially exist as powerless abstract ideas, this's also why when the very power itself (Spirit Circuits) is destroyed, everything with an affinity for magic becomes powerless, including the Old Deus/Ether.

??? I agree with 99% of what you said, I think you didn't understand what I've been saying all this time or you didn't understand what you wrote yourself.

¹The only difference between a Concept and Essence is sentience.[This is a fact, this is the only difference between them stated in the work]

²Holou manipulated concepts period, and it is the same as manipulating essence.[You have not provided any proof that it is not an ability of the race]

³Essence allows the manipulation of all concepts that exist.[And this is not something from the DSA because if it were, it would not be necessary to use Essence]

⁴I agree with you on ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING I didn't just mention.

 

[Lynieryz]

Holou doesnt manipulate concept from ether but rather concept from non-ether.

Yes? I was never against it, the difference is insignificant as it is only sentient and non-sentient.

And you have not provided any proof that it is an ability of the race, while in fact, narratively it's said performed by an individual not even explicitly said can be performed by a race.

Because I don't need to prove it because it is the Wiki standard that the ability that an individual of a race performed is characteristic of the race until there is some indication that it is not.

Saying that essence can manipulate all concepts isn't true because that goes against statements in the ln that opposite that idea, but it could be justified in some specific cases, like Suniaster, which is the essence or concept of omnipotence can rule all ethers (old deus).

They can manipulate any concept, the only limitation for DSA is that you can only manipulate one concept per core and this is not a limitation of the essence but of the DSA.

“That said, it is a system to virtually revive inactive essence for conceptual rewrite with the target, it is. That means that, when it stops, all reverts to normal, it does—and it can only rewrite the concept specified in the false essence, it can.”

 

[Lynieryz]

Is that so? Could you please clarify where that standard is stated, or is it simply your own standard?

By your logic, it doesn't make sense and leads to NLF because you arbitrarily scaling each other without proof stating that every character shares the same properties and abilities. It's like, for analogy's sake, there's a verse with two person within it; both are human. The former can perform something beyond comprehension, while the latter cannot. However, using your logic would change the facts; because both are human therefore they should share the same abilities, not only limited to that one person, but all human ppl will have the same abilities as the first, even though, in fact it's never stated as such.

This does not need to be said as it is already an inherent characteristic of what a species is, so it is assumed as such until there is proof of the opposite.

• Soul Physiology

• Shinigami Physiology
• Hollow Physiology
• Quincy Physiology
• Fullbringer Physiology

 

[Satanichia_Chlammy_Mafahl]

Meh, Im looking for the standards page or whatever that has the standards are listed out, not looking for examples of them. Logically, if there are examples, then, theres gotta be something that I'm looking for.

 

[Lynieryz]

Meh, Im looking for the standards page or whatever that has the standards are listed out, not looking for examples of them. Logically, if there are examples, then, theres gotta be something that I'm looking for.

It doesn't exist, it's just one of those things that has always been judged with common sense.

 

[Phoenks]

Got bored, decided to rewatch and then read No Game No Life.

Finished the anime again a couple days ago. Just finished reading Volume 3. So I've read and watched the first 3 volumes.

For fun, I've been listing a bunch of intelligence feats for Shiro/Sora as I go:

Phoenks/NoGameNoLife

vsbattles.fandom.com

Not really for indexing, it's just fun to list them.

I honestly enjoy the smartness and creativity of Sora/Shiro's plans and how they're portrayed. Somehow, despite being hyperintelligent beings, they are still showcased with enough believability for me to find their stuff very cool.

 

[Lynieryz]

they are still showcased with enough believability for me to find their stuff very cool

In what sense?

 

[Phoenks]

In what sense?

Because usually the plans are explained in such a way that I am like "ohhhh, yeah if you were that ridiculously smart then that would actually make some sense."

Or, even in the case of ridiculous calculations, the series still makes an attempt to justify it. Like Shiro writing all the equations in the sand during the Love game to calculate movements and whatnot.

I just enjoy that it doesn't just throw these things around without a care in the world. It doesn't break my immersion and makes me believe that the characters are as smart as they're made out to be.

There are some "smart" characters like Aizen, who while ridiculously smart, aren't really given the same care that makes them believable.

 

[Lynieryz]

Because usually the plans are explained in such a way that I am like "ohhhh, yeah if you were that ridiculously smart then that would actually make some sense."

Or, even in the case of ridiculous calculations, the series still makes an attempt to justify it. Like Shiro writing all the equations in the sand during the Love game to calculate movements and whatnot.

I just enjoy that it doesn't just throw these things around without a care in the world. It doesn't break my immersion and makes me believe that the characters are as smart as they're made out to be.

There are some "smart" characters like Aizen, who while ridiculously smart, aren't really given the same care that makes them believable.

It makes sense, but there are some things later on that break this and end up being executed in a way that is not credible, but they are very rare and when they do happen it is not with anything relevant.

 

[Phoenks]

It makes sense, but there are some things later on that break this and end up being executed in a way that is not credible, but they are very rare and when they do happen it is not with anything relevant.

Guess we'll see.

Started Volume 4, which is post-anime material owo

begins with horniness, as always...

 

[Lynieryz]

begins with horniness, as always...

Yes... honestly I was discouraged because of that, I was planning an upgrade to the cosmology, profiles for elves, dwarves, dragons, improving the old deus profiles but I ended up losing motivation because the author goes too far with the horniness with characters who are minors.

I have no problem with horniness per se, the problem is that the author's focus on it almost always ends up with underage characters, with him constantly highlighting this fact as as a positive thing.

 

[Phoenks]

Yooo Steph actually gets smarter?! WWWW!

It is funny that the "dumbass" comic relief character is still pretty damn gifted in her own right.

Yes... honestly I was discouraged because of that, I was planning an upgrade to the cosmology, profiles for elves, dwarves, dragons, improving the old deus profiles but I ended up losing motivation because the author goes too far with the horniness with characters who are minors.

I have no problem with horniness per se, the problem is that the author's focus on it almost always ends up with underage characters, with him constantly highlighting this fact as as a positive thing.

Yeah it is a little absurd...

I can deal with it, though. I think...

Been through my fair share of horny nonsense from other authors.

 

[Phoenks]

I finished chapter 1 of volume 4. I believe this is likely to be my least favorite plotline so far based on it..

Welp, maybe Sora/Shiro will show off some seduction/manipulation tactics I guess.

 

[Phoenks]

Slowed down, but finished chapter 2 of V4...

Yeah, this volume is pretty ass so far.

First chapter was romance/horny loli stuff.

Second chapter was like a filler beach episode.

Sigh . . .

 

[Phoenks]

Finish Volume 4... Man that almost felt like a waste of time! Athor statement:

You don't say??!?

I could tell!


Onto Volume 5...

 

[Phoenks]

Lol. Idk if y'all treat this as hyperbole or not, but this quite ridiculous nonetheless!!! Shiro predicts the movement pattern of infinite beam projectiles!

No Game No Life is a series that tends to be extremely specific and direct with measurements, so I wouldn't be surprised if infinite is actually being used seriously here.

 

[Phoenks]

Volume 5 complete. Better volume for sure. I enjoyed the battle against a hundred flugel. The game was good.

I think the whole part with Oceand and stuff was pretty drawn out and iffy though. Didn't care for it that much.

Also, Sora somehow having a kid with a queen is... very strange, to say the least.

Of course, the author continues to insert what I can only imagine are his own kinks into the series. And he doesn't even try to hide it!


I am moving to Volume 6 now. I hope it will be as good as the anime's "Zero" adaptation, which is pretty damn good! Might even rewatch it! It's been so long.

 

[Lynieryz]

Lol. Idk if y'all treat this as hyperbole or not, but this quite ridiculous nonetheless!!! Shiro predicts the movement pattern of infinite beam projectiles!

No Game No Life is a series that tends to be extremely specific and direct with measurements, so I wouldn't be surprised if infinite is actually being used seriously here.

It's not hyperbole, I even marked this recently to check later, because later on they have a similar feat where they are comparable to an infinite adaptation that happens in "one-infinitieth of a second."

 

[Lynieryz]

Volume 5 complete. Better volume for sure. I enjoyed the battle against a hundred flugel. The game was good.

I think the whole part with Oceand and stuff was pretty drawn out and iffy though. Didn't care for it that much.

Also, Sora somehow having a kid with a queen is... very strange, to say the least.

Of course, the author continues to insert what I can only imagine are his own kinks into the series. And he doesn't even try to hide it!


I am moving to Volume 6 now. I hope it will be as good as the anime's "Zero" adaptation, which is pretty damn good! Might even rewatch it! It's been so long.

It's a bit early to say this, but after you read Volume 9, don't read Volume 10 right away because it assumes the reader has read the spin-off "Practical War Game." You should read the spin-off before Volume 10.

 

[Phoenks]

So I was reading Volume 6, and then I looked over the Star Grail page, and I realized...

This might qualify for 1-A, no ? Like, the Star Grail is literally the conceptual manifestation of omnipotence and is the source of all other concepts in the world. Which are specifically stated to be "substance" and "essence" ontologically existing throughout higher and lower dimensions. With even these lower concepts being Type 1 in nature based on the descriptions I've seen.

Unironically, I might try to upgrade it at some point if I become more certain of it.

What do you think, @Lynieryz

 

[Lynieryz]

So I was reading Volume 6, and then I looked over the Star Grail page, and I realized...

This might qualify for 1-A, no ? Like, the Star Grail is literally the conceptual manifestation of omnipotence and is the source of all other concepts in the world. Which are specifically stated to be "substance" and "essence" ontologically existing throughout higher and lower dimensions. With even these lower concepts being Type 1 in nature based on the descriptions I've seen.

Unironically, I might try to upgrade it at some point if I become more certain of it.

What do you think, @Lynieryz

I don't think it works because it is stated that SG was made with the combined power of all active Old Deus to reach a level beyond theirs, it's an extreme anti-feat.[I'll look for the quote]

It is easier to argue that the True Essence is 1-A but I think even that does not have enough evidence.[You haven't gotten to that part yet]

 

[Phoenks]

I don't think it works because it is stated that SG was made with the combined power of all active Old Deus to reach a level beyond theirs, it's an extreme anti-feat.[I'll look for the quote]

Whaaa? ://

 

[Phoenks]

SMH that doesn't even make sense with how the SG is portrayed if it is literally the summit from which everything stems. How could the Old Deus have created it? Sigh.

Is that really a statement?

 

[Lynieryz]

Yeah, I was remembering wrong, that's what the Old Deus believed but they were wrong.

So it's still possible to do this 1-A scale with Suniaster, even more so with the 1-B upgrade to the Old Deus that I planned to do and the True Essence thing.

There's also something about non-Euclidean dimensions that I have no idea how it influences cosmology.

“Yes. The throne of the One True God—specifically, an artifact called the Suniaster, apparently.”
Relating what Schwi had told him in the ruins of the Elven city, Riku stood.
“Old Dei—are born of the planet.”
By wishes or by prayers, they obtained “ether” and were born. That’s what Schwi had told him.
“But too many were born. The Suniaster is a ‘conceptual device’ instituted by the Old Dei in order to determine a single god—a single being with magical power on a level capable of creating races.”
“……”
“But for the Old Dei to create a device able to encompass the power of all the Old Dei is impossible, right?”
“*Well, yeah. ’Cos that—”
Though this was her first time hearing all of this, Couron understood immediately and bluntly broke it down.
“—would mean using the power of ten to create the power of eleven…right?”
“I knew it, Couron. You got it right. Yes, it’s a story so asinine, one can only marvel.”
It should have been self-evident: One True God would rule over everything, including the Old Dei. If you supposed that there were ten Old Dei who pooled all their power, it would only equal ten. But the Suniaster—was supposed to produce power that would bring all ten to heel. But it was fundamentally insufficient. It was impossible.
“So, here’s what you can do…”
His eyes alight with a notion unfathomably fatuous, Riku spelled it out.
“If there are ten gods, you just kill nine, which leaves you the One True God—right?”
Yes, summarizing what Schwi had told him that day boiled down to this: They’d destroy the ether of all the other Old Dei and absorb the power generated. In this way, they’d boost their own strength to obtain the power necessary to manifest the Suniaster. But as it happened, there were as many Old Dei as there were wishes. Even if you slaughtered the big guys, you’d still have to worry about some upstart surpassing you. So if you just conquered the throne of the One True God—the Suniaster—there you were, the only god.
“That’s the truth behind this ridiculous Great War.”
……
“That’s…idiotic— You’re saying that’s why we’ve endured this whole waaar—?!”
Couron shook with rage, shouting as if spitting in his eye.
“Couron…watch your mouth. That’s an insult to idiots. ’Cos, you know—”
Speaking languidly, Riku touched the map, the board, and said disgustedly:
“—you can manifest the Suniaster even without any of that.”
“*Huh?”
Ignoring Couron’s blank look, Riku toyed with the black king in his palm.
“Hey, Couron, did I mention what gives birth to the Old Dei?”
“—The planet, right?”
“Yes, the spirit corridors. The source of all things. The stream of all life: the planet itself.”
Schwi picked up where he left off.
“…Their creations…the races…are also created, through the Old Dei’s ether…through spirit corridors.”
“Yeah…so you know?”
With a sigh, Riku came back to the same thought he’d had that day—the day he’d heard this story in the Elven ruins. What had occurred to him before anything else, when Schwi had told him the cause of the gods’ strife and the story of the Suniaster… How could no one have noticed something this obvious? He uttered a conclusion so self-evident it had surprised even Schwi.
“All the Old Dei on the planet in total—couldn’t be as powerful as their source, if you give it any thought.”
Couron’s eyes opened wide. So… Black king in hand, Riku turned the map—the board—and put it right in the middle. With that, he bluntly announced their, the ghosts’, victory conditions. That is—their final move.
“If you destroy the planet, the Suniaster will manifest itself.”
—…
Ignoring Couron’s stupefaction, Riku and Schwi pointed to the floor and continued.
“If you pierce the core of the planet—the source of the spirit corridors—the power discharged will surpass that of all the Old Deus.”
“…The manifestation will occur, in 10-46 seconds…destruction, power discharge, manifestation, and then…”
“Right there—we seize the Suniaster and rebuild the world…”
Riku and Schwi announced simultaneously to the still dumbfounded Couron:
““…Checkmate.””
“B-but that—where are you going to get the power to impale—?”
By the time Couron had recovered enough from her trance to stammer this, the strategic map on the wall jumped out at her.
—It couldn’t be. It couldn’t be, it couldn’t be, it couldn’t be!!
“You’re going to make them do it themselves?! You’re not aiming for a deadlock—but an all-out collision of all the factions?!”
Riku gave a giddy, thin smile at Couron’s shriek.
“Artosh’s camp and the Unions—aren’t deadlocked.”
“—Huh?”
Mutually assured destruction—a deadlock based on the assurance of the destruction of both parties if one made a move—only worked when there was an option not to make a move.

 

[Phoenks]

Yeah, seems they point out that is a HUGE lie. That makes a lot more sense. It would've been really contradictory to the narrative in general.

Also, yeah, the Gods should be 1-B at the very least. You could even argue they are High 1-B+ because "13 + iR" is a complex number which includes all imaginary (I) real numbers (R). That's uncountable dimensions unless I'm mistaken.

Tet would transcend that, and is capable of destroying/recreating a world that encompasses that much.

The Suniaster on the other hand is the ultimate power / essence of the world that creates the substance of the concepts all the gods are based on, which themselves can permeate across higher and lower dimensions. So it could easily be Low 1-A or 1-A.

 

[Lynieryz]

Also, yeah, the Gods should be 1-B at the very least. You could even argue they are High 1-B+ because "13 + iR" is a complex number which includes all imaginary (I) real numbers (R). That's uncountable dimensions unless I'm mistaken.

Yes, this was rejected before because the relationship between the dimensions was not defined but neither the op nor the other users realized that this is one of the most direct statements since + iR are numbers with a literal infinite distance between them.

And my cosmology upgrade was just about that.

 

[Phoenks]

Yeah the thing about NGNL is that it is always super literal about things a lot of the time and does actually try to take itself seriously when it comes to physics and math. Contextually there is no reason to say that this isn't explicit.

 

[Phoenks]

Btw ngnl apparently has infinite concepts and thus theoretically infinite Old Deus / Ether lol.

And all of that is given substance by the Suniaster.

 

[Lynieryz]

Btw ngnl apparently has infinite concepts and thus theoretically infinite Old Deus / Ether lol.

And all of that is given substance by the Suniaster.

Yes, later I have to see the explanation of the dwarves' inventions [E-Bomb, etc.] because they use inactive Old Deus as energy and this can be an anti-feat if the inactive ones are comparable to the active ones.

 

[Phoenks]

Yes, later I have to see the explanation of the dwarves' inventions [E-Bomb, etc.] because they use inactive Old Deus as energy and this can be an anti-feat if the inactive ones are comparable to the active ones.

Why would this be an anti feat regardless? Would it not just be conceptual manipulation for the Dwarves? That doesn't seem too outlandish to me given that even the Elves had conceptual stuff going on as well.

 

[Phoenks]

Finished Volume 6.

Wow, the ending was actually a bit different from the anime. Seems that the anime streamlined it and cut out the bit with Artosh vs Ex Machina.

Volume 6 is probably the peak of the series so far. The author really cooked on this one. Once the second half hits it is amazing. Even though I watched the movie right before reading, I still wanted to read the entire thing over again cause it's just that good material-wise. Riku practically making the entire world a chessboard and then managing to draw against everyone else despite all odds. The romance aspect isn't super amazing but it's cute enough for me to find it a pretty wholesome and positive addition to the story as well. Overall it is a short and sweet story that wraps up very nicely.

If I'm not mistaken, Tet seems to consider Riku/Schwi to be "stronger" than Blank because they managed a stalemate against the "real world," while Blank gave up on that.

That's so real.

 

[Lynieryz]

Why would this be an anti feat regardless? Would it not just be conceptual manipulation for the Dwarves? That doesn't seem too outlandish to me given that even the Elves had conceptual stuff going on as well.

Anti-feat in the sense of the dimensional scale or is it only anti-feat if it's about R>F?