[No Game No Life] Jibril's hax

[Lynieryz]

And taking advantage of the fact that it is something self-evident, Jibril should have:

Time Travel, Summoning (Through Space-Time shift, Jibril can summon a version of herself from the past)

Time Stop (Through Space-Time shift, Jibril can stop time)

Resistance to Power Nullification (Ja La Anse, a spell that completely nullifies the ability to use magic, was only effective in nullifying her ability to fly)

It's quite simple, currently the NGNL dimensions are accepted as unquantifiable dimensions and therefore HDE should be removed from the Old Deus profiles.

Holou

Holou (帆楼ほろう, Horō) is the Goddess of Doubt and Trust, and the creator of Ex-Machina. She was the first and therefore oldest conscious being in the world. She is currently the self-proclaimed representative of the Old Deus, but her possession of the Race Piece has yet to be determined. She...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Artosh

Artosh (アルトシュ, Arutoshu) was one of the Old Deus and the most strongest among them. He was the mastermind behind the Great War, as he embodied the very concept of war itself. Through his nature, he brought the world into an unending cycle of killing and destruction, aided by his creations, the...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Tet (No Game No Life)

Tet (テト, Teto) is a god of play, an Old Deus who came into existence through Riku Dola's imagination. As the Great War reached its conclusion and Riku found himself unable to attain the Suniaster, he offered a fervent prayer to the sole god he had faith in, Tet. In response to his plea, Tet...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks fine.

 

[MeidoIzayoi]

would the justification for Immortality type 9 be changed or no?

her true ether exists in a higher dimension

the wording higher dimension is changed to different dimension
since dimensions in NGNL isn't accepted to have QS

 

[Lynieryz]

would the justification for Immortality type 9 be changed or no?

the wording higher dimension is changed to different dimension
since dimensions in NGNL isn't accepted to have QS

Maybe, it doesn't make much difference besides avoiding confusion because the wiki accepts that higher dimension ≠ QS, the dimension continues to be a higher dimension because it was assigned as such, it just doesn't have QS and then it's like any other dimension.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Unquantifiable higher dimensions is still HDE, it's just not any tier.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

I am far from the best scaler or has the best knowledge on the subjekt, but the statement of "Holou's nuclear coordinates lie on 13 + iR variable dimsnions-" Should be enough for It to be accepted as "large size" a accepted method to get HDE. I don't remeber much about the rest though. Since been a long time since i have been in this verse. So i hard dissagree For Holou, and am neutral for the rest.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Like if a 5-D being wasn't treated as infinitely superior they're still 5 dimensional and possess that extra axis. It doesn't make them magically a three dimensional being they just wouldn't qualify for tier 1 and so HDE still counts.

 

[Lynieryz]

Unquantifiable higher dimensions is still HDE, it's just not any tier.

Can you elaborate on why it would still be HDE and is this something accepted by the wiki?

 

[Lynieryz]

Like if a 5-D being wasn't treated as infinitely superior they're still 5 dimensional and possess that extra axis. It doesn't make them magically a three dimensional being they just wouldn't qualify for tier 1 and so HDE still counts.

There is no qualitative superiority accepted in NGNL case as it was rejected.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Can you elaborate on why it would still be HDE and is this something accepted by the wiki?

Holou here would still possess that 13-D axes and even if of insignificant size they're still definitely not 3-D.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

There is no qualitative superiority accepted in NGNL case as it was rejected.

So? That doesn't matter. Higher dimensions here are still extra directions/angles/coordinates Holou posses and still makes her have HDE.

 

[Lynieryz]

Holou here would still possess that 13-D axes and even if of insignificant size they're still definitely not 3-D.

So? That doesn't matter. Higher dimensions here are still extra directions/angles/coordinates Holou posses and still makes her have HDE.

This is confusing, without QS how would it have superiority to 3-D if without QS it would be the same as alternative dimensions.

Is this accepted by the wiki? and if so can you prove that this is accepted?

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

This is confusing, without QS how would it have superiority to 3-D if without QS it would be the same as alternative dimensions.

Is this accepted by the wiki? and if so can you prove that this is accepted?

QS only matters for tiering. It's still HDE because they still possess more spatial directions than us.

Also right back at you. Can you prove its accepted you need QS for HDE?

 

[Lynieryz]

QS only matters for tiering. It's still HDE because they still possess more spatial directions than us.

Also right back at you. Can you prove its accepted you need QS for HDE?

This is pure dishonesty. I'm not known on the subject, and I'm genuinely asking if what you're saying is valid, simple as that. If it is, then fine. What you're saying isn't on the HDE page, and that "was" my only reference on this subject.

Searching on the subject, I found a justification accepted by the wiki that works to maintain the HDE of the verse, even though it is unquantifiable. It's something very simple; however, it is specific and extremely expository, coming from the verse itself. The nature of your answer takes away any desire to share the justification. Another day, when I feel like it, I will explain the justification because now I really don't feel like it.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

This is pure dishonesty. I'm not known on the subject, and I'm genuinely asking if what you're saying is valid, simple as that. If it is, then fine. What you're saying isn't on the HDE page, and that "was" my only reference on this subject.

Searching on the subject, I found a justification accepted by the wiki that works to maintain the HDE of the verse, even though it is unquantifiable. It's something very simple; however, it is specific and extremely expository, coming from the verse itself. The nature of your answer takes away any desire to share the justification. Another day, when I feel like it, I will explain the justification because now I really don't feel like it.

ok bud

 

[Grand_Astartes]

I agree with MGQ here

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

As far as i can see, the HDE page simply talks about being able to move/possessing addition axes than 3, so it should still be fine for the characters, but i could be wrong.

@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT can probably clarify that.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

As far I know those with in verse higher dimensionality that doesn't qualify for tier 2-1 in the wiki still gets the ability, unless some recent revision changed that. Although, since I'm not familiar with NGNL I don't know why they wouldn't qualify tier wise honestly.

 

[Lynieryz]

Here the explanation is very simple, basically the author used 13 +iR to refer to dimensions and from what I understand this specifically refers to extradimensional axis?

why this is the case:

Mathematical Intuition​

​

Speaking in more rigorous terms, a “dimension” in a system can be most effectively equated to the real number line, which is itself the most basic example of a 1-dimensional coordinate space (commonly denoted as simply as ℝ), and contains bounded subsets (smaller, finite lines if you will) whose exact measurements can be taken by “pointing” at a real number represented as a specific point in the line (Example: A line with length 3 is a subset of the real number line, whose length is infinite)

In this context, adding another dimension to a given space is effectively adding another real number line in a different, perpendicular position, which is mathematically represented by continuous cartesian products of ℝ. For example, 2-dimensional space is represented by ℝ^2 (ℝ x ℝ), 3-dimensional space by ℝ^3, and so on and so forth.

In this context, measurements of positions in space are once again obtained by directing oneself at arbitrary numbers contained in the axes of the given expanse, thus obtaining one's own coordinates in it. Simplifying this case, one could also informally state that the “Dimension” of a space is the exact number of coordinates needed to specify any position within it.

Likewise, any n-dimensional object can be thought of as being a subset of a real coordinate space of corresponding dimension. Here is a good illustrative example of that.

The term “Higher-Dimensional Existence” refers to objects and entities that exist in more than the regular 3-dimensional space, with at least one additional dimension. It is important to note that certain criteria must be met for an object or entity to be considered Higher-Dimensional.

• Simply viewing 3-dimensional objects, entities, or constructs as fiction does not qualify them as Higher-Dimensional, as they are still portrayed as regular 3-dimensional beings.
• Ontological differences over 3-dimensional objects, entities, or constructs, with three or more dimensions, are often a measure of power and do not necessarily indicate the presence of an extradimensional axis.
• As far as being larger than infinitely-sized objects or spaces goes, one must analyze the context of the feat in question to determine if it truly qualifies for Higher-Dimensional Existence. In terms of volume (Or, more generally, measure), the only way to be truly bigger than an object of infinite size is to have a non-zero size in a space of more dimensions than the object in question. However, portrayals of more expansive realms containing infinitely large things within themselves are not necessarily indicative of such.
  • A good construction to exemplify this is the topological space known as the long line. In essence, it is a space obtained by taking an uncountably infinite number of line segments and “gluing” them together end-to-end, and so it is in some sense much longer than the real line, which is comprised of only a countably infinite number of such line segments. Nevertheless, they are both 1-dimensional spaces.
  • The long line itself can also be generalized into 2-dimensional and 3-dimensional analogues, and as such the same principle holds for higher dimensions as well.
• Stating that something is Extra-Dimensional simply means it comes from outside of the regular 3-dimensional space. It does not necessarily mean that it has an extradimensional axis in contrast to 3-dimensional objects, without further context.
• Stating that something transcends space or space and time does not necessarily imply that it has an extradimensional axis or that it pertains to the geometry of the object.
• Simply stating that something is from a Higher Plane or a Higher Existence does not necessarily imply the existence of an extradimensional axis in relation to 3-dimensional entities or objects. Statements that something is "higher-dimensional" also need to be interpreted in context, as authors at times use the term figuratively.
  • Additionally, usages of “Higher Dimension” should be treated with scrutiny, as “Dimension” is often times used to refer to places, and not directions in space, and as such the term can easily be used in the same sense as "Higher Realm/Plane" and similar verbiage. Context should be used to determine whether it truly refers to increased dimensionality.
• Characters who embody or are a literal timeline / spacetime continuum (The entire past, present and future of 3-dimensional space) on a universal scale can also be considered for Higher-Dimensional Existence (4-D). However, simply being called a universe does not count without proper evidence of the entirety of the past, present and future of the timeline being mentioned.

Comprehensive List of Set Theory Symbols | Math Vault

Definitive list of the most notable math symbols in set theory — categorized by function into tables along with each symbol's meaning and example.

mathvault.ca

Are higher-dimensional beings infinitely stronger than lower-dimensional equivalents?​

Unintuitive as that may be: Not necessarily, as a number of characteristics through which we quantify the strength or power of a character can remain unchanged when transitioning between higher and lower dimensions. For example: Mass is a quantity that is detached from the dimension of the object which it is inherent to, and unlike volume is not divided in units corresponding to each particular dimension (1-volume [length], 2-volume [area], 3-volume, 4-volume...). It is singular in nature and its units equally apply to all dimensions; whether it is distributed over an area or a volume only tells us about the span of space in which it is spread, not about the quantity itself.

As a consequence of that, much of the calculation methods which are used to measure strength apply equally to both higher and lower dimensions, as they do not care about the extra variables and often work with a single one of them. Examples of this are kinetic energy (Ek=0.5*M*V^2), force (F=M*A), work (W=F*d), and etc.

An intuitive example of that is found in the general definition of Work as defined in physics: In essence, as work itself denotes the energy applied to an object as it is displaced along a given path, the basic formula for calculating it only takes into account a single variable, and the path itself is treated as an one-dimensional object, regardless of the dimension of the space in which the action itself takes place.

Hence, a higher-dimensional entity can be both stronger or weaker than a lower-dimensional one, and thus, they are usually quantified based on their own feats, instead of dimensionality alone. If a character is merely stated to be higher-dimensional and simultaneously has no other feats to derive anything noteworthy from, then they are put at Unknown, and the same applies to lower dimensions as well.

Do note, however, that them not qualifying for Tier 2 and above doesn't mean they are "fake" higher-dimensional beings or anything of the sort. It is simply that being higher-dimensional does not inherently mean they have infinite power in the first place, as explained above.

 

[DontTalkDT]

As far as i can see, the HDE page simply talks about being able to move/possessing addition axes than 3, so it should still be fine for the characters, but i could be wrong.

@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT can probably clarify that.

If the question is whether a character can have HDE without qualifying for Tier 1, then yes. Non-tiering applicable higher dimensionality also gets the HDE ability.

 

[Lynieryz]

If the question is whether a character can have HDE without qualifying for Tier 1, then yes. Non-tiering applicable higher dimensionality also gets the HDE ability.

Cool, does non-tiering applicable higher dimensionality grant anything? Or is nothing given to the character due to this unquantifiability?

Applications
​

Keep in mind that this is merely a very general list of the abilities that a higher-dimensional entity would possess, and is not necessarily applicable to all the fiction.

Pseudo-Invulnerability: Due to the additional axis spatially inherent to them, higher-dimensional objects are comprised of more information than what can normally be described in lower-dimensional spaces, and thus may only be capable of interacting with them through lower-dimensional "slices" or cross-sections of their bodies.

Pseudo-Teleportation: Higher-dimensional entities may be capable of seemingly phasing in and out of sight by moving through additional axes imperceptible to lower-dimensional beings, granting them a notable advantage in overall range and mobility.

Unconventional Physiology: Although much of the same physical laws and principles would theoretically apply to higher-dimensional worlds, they would likely be instantiated very differently, resulting in matter behaving in strange ways compared to our own Universe.

Large Size: Due to the additional angles possessed by them, higher-dimensional objects and beings would be much larger than lower ones.

As far as i can see, the HDE page simply talks about being able to move/possessing addition axes than 3, so it should still be fine for the characters, but i could be wrong.

@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT can probably clarify that.

And what do you all think about duplication? It only needs one more vote to be applicable.

 

[Senadina]

I disagree with Duplication. Jibril simply moves through time using Space-time shift so that a version of herself from a different point in time appears simultaneously there.

 

[Lynieryz]

I disagree with Duplication. Jibril simply moves through time using Space-time shift so that a version of herself from a different point in time appears simultaneously there.

This is still duplication and is summoning also valid?

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

I disagree with Duplication. Jibril simply moves through time using Space-time shift so that a version of herself from a different point in time appears simultaneously there.

I guess it could be a limited form of duplication to tie in with her space-time shift.

 

[Iiliminal]

ngnl should straight up be 1-B

 

[DontTalkDT]

Cool, does non-tiering applicable higher dimensionality grant anything? Or is nothing given to the character due to this unquantifiability?

I would just list HDE.

And what do you all think about duplication? It only needs one more vote to be applicable.

If I understand it correctly it is existing at two places simultanously due to time travel? Personally, I would just like time travel then. That seems to generally come with the ability to go into the past.

 

[Lynieryz]

Looks fine.

As far as i can see, the HDE page simply talks about being able to move/possessing addition axes than 3, so it should still be fine for the characters, but i could be wrong.

@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT can probably clarify that.

I would just list HDE.

If I understand it correctly it is existing at two places simultanously due to time travel? Personally, I would just like time travel then. That seems to generally come with the ability to go into the past.

It's ok like that?

Time Travel, Summoning (Through Space-Time shift, Jibril can summon a version of herself from the past)

 

[DontTalkDT]

If it's a version from the past then yes

 

[Zeinx1]

Unquantifiable higher dimensions is still HDE, it's just not any tier.

disagree fra

 

[Senadina]

This is still duplication

Well I'm not super familiar with that term tho, so hard to say for sure, I could definitely be mistaken.

 

[Lynieryz]

Current votes:

Agree with crt's original proposal[HDE Removal and Duplication]: @DarkDragonMedeus

Disagree with removing HDE?[it is uncertain whether it actually was a vote] @Celestial_Pegasus

Disagree with removing HDE and agree with Time Travel/Summoning: @DontTalkDT

 

[Lynieryz]

I added Time Stop and Power Nullification Resistance to the OP.

 

[Senadina]

For Time Stop, I'm not fully convinced. I dont think she magically stopped time itself. Basically, she only shifted slightly backwards in time by at least a few milliseconds to avoid the Dragonia' attack, as in the context, the stopped time seems only appeared to be an effect from her perspective as she moved backwards in time. The space-time shift/transfer is just the ability to "move" through space-time, this ability has no sub uses such as manipulating time freely. And also, essentially, this isn't a racial ability - Jibril just developed it herself after successfully analyzing Dragonia's ecology.

For Power Nullification, I also don't think it would work. Based on the context, Ja La Anse is a magic that nullifies (destroys) other magics (spirits) in a certain area. Shinku/Think only applied it to the atmosphere to repel and bring down the Dwarves' armada, which coincidentally also affected Jibril there, causing her to fall directly into the battle area between Shinku and Loni. This area was not within the radius of Ja La Anse, so Jibril was able to utilize her Heavenly Smite to vaporize the entire area.

 

[Lynieryz]

For Time Stop, I'm not fully convinced. I dont think she magically stopped time itself. Basically, she only shifted slightly backwards in time by at least a few milliseconds to avoid the Dragonia' attack, as in the context, the stopped time seems only appeared to be an effect from her perspective as she moved backwards in time. The space-time shift/transfer is just the ability to "move" through space-time, this ability has no sub uses such as manipulating time freely. And also, essentially, this isn't a racial ability - Jibril just developed it herself after successfully analyzing Dragonia's ecology.

No, she actually stopped time because she uses the space that is stopped in time as a shield because objects that are stopped in time are indestructible because they are not subject to change.

For Power Nullification, I also don't think it would work. Based on the context, Ja La Anse is a magic that nullifies (destroys) other magics (spirits) in a certain area. Shinku/Think only applied it to the atmosphere to repel and bring down the Dwarves' armada, which coincidentally also affected Jibril there, causing her to fall directly into the battle area between Shinku and Loni. This area was not within the radius of Ja La Anse, so Jibril was able to utilize her Heavenly Smite to vaporize the entire area.

No, because I remember that someone who was on the ground tried to use a Rite and it was nullified, I'm going to go get the Scan.

 

[Lynieryz]

I'm too lazy to turn it into a scan but you have knowledge so I don't think it's necessary.

Ja La Anse range:

“——Immovable Second Protection, Ja La Anse———!!!”

That moment—centered in the basement of Nina Clive’s mansion. As soon as she woke up, she heard the horrid screams of the “dome” that was destined to die. It crosses the city, reverberates through the forest, and makes the sky creak—at the same time that the strange cry reaches the outer perimeter of the city, it deafens to complete silence.

—The world went still.



…Everyone who heard the sinister crash must have wondered if the star they were on had died.

It spread from the capital to ten percent of the continent. The absolute—or even desperate—silence made it seem as if time itself had stopped. It’s no wonder, since all the Elementals within its sphere of influence were consumed—

Think had to leave traps prepared as she is not capable of using magic:

A huge, multi-layered bud—normally, you’d think it was magic wrought by Think, as, normally, it would be impossible for an Elf to invoke such a large mass by themselves. Then, now that the magic has been sealed, it has no magic to sustain it, and can be destroyed with a mere blow of a sword.

Yeah—normally, typically! In any ordinary situation, that would be the right answer. However, the very thing that overturned the plausible answer were the thorns buried under Lóni’s feet—something out of the ordinary.

——Va Yu Anse, the Single-Action Protection……

One of the eighty-six-layer spirit-breaking rites that utilizes the divine essence of Kainas to function. The shift magic operates in pairs with the thorns in Think’s secret laboratory. It wasn’t summoned, it wasn’t wrought—who would have known that it was shifted from the laboratory? And even more so, that water lily that she shifted—it was a prison! She said it was nothing more than something he couldn’t understand—there’s no way Lóni could have known—!!

 

[Senadina]

For sure I know the scan you brought is from an unofficial or fan translation. But even so, it still doesn't prove at all that she magically manipulated time and stopped it. In context, it only implies that it's just an issue of "movement" - specifically, she shifted or teleported through time. Now, from her perspective, since she moved through time she perceived her surroundings as frozen. Cause to her, time seemed frozen, so she could avoid Dragonia's attacks.

For the other issues, I think it's still not possible logically—without spirits you can't do magic. But I can kinda understand looking at it, Ja La Anse's range only destroyed spirits in a certain area, keeping people who rely on spirits to do magic from being able to do it. But that doesn't apply to Jibril, even if the spirits were totally annihilated in a certain area, it doesn't seem to affect her because she's hooked up straight to the source of the spirits—the spirit circuits, in other words, the planet's core itself.

 

[Lynieryz]

For sure I know the scan you brought is from an unofficial or fan translation. But even so, it still doesn't prove at all that she magically manipulated time and stopped it. In context, it only implies that it's just an issue of "movement" - specifically, she shifted or teleported through time. Now, from her perspective, since she moved through time she perceived her surroundings as frozen. Cause to her, time seemed frozen, so she could avoid Dragonia's attacks.

This interpretation does not work and does not answer why it is a time stop, it is stated that time stopped and she stopped time to use space as a shield because things become indestructible in time stop as they are not subject to change and your disbelief doesn't work either because this was accomplished through Space-Time shift.

I'm using this translation, if you have another one, send it to me in a private conversation.

Practical War Game Chapter 2 – Practical War Game

PRACTICAL WAR GAME That day, Think Nirvalen vaguely gazed up into the heavens, her back scorched by black ash—to the point of vitrification. …Her long ears perked up, but only heard silence. The je…

tsukimitranslations.wordpress.com

 

[Lynieryz]

For the other issues, I think it's still not possible logically—without spirits you can't do magic. But I can kinda understand looking at it, Ja La Anse's range only destroyed spirits in a certain area, keeping people who rely on spirits to do magic from being able to do it. But that doesn't apply to Jibril, even if the spirits were totally annihilated in a certain area, it doesn't seem to affect her because she's hooked up straight to the source of the spirits—the spirit circuits, in other words, the planet's core itself.

This also wouldn't work because Jibril was in Ja La Anse range, so her accessing the earth's core would be irrelevant as all magic that came to her would be nullified.

 

[Senadina]

This interpretation does not work and does not answer why it is a time stop, it is stated that time stopped and she stopped time to use space as a shield because things become indestructible in time stop as they are not subject to change and your disbelief doesn't work either because this was accomplished through Space-Time shift.

I still stand by my previous stance on this issue. I dont wish to debate it further since there's no point in arguing about it more as we'll just keep saying the same stuff back and forth without agreeing on a conclusion. I'm really curious to hear others' thoughts on this matter, I'm open to listening to different points of view too. I wanna see where the conversation goes yeah.

I'm using this translation

That's an unofficial one.

This also wouldn't work because Jibril was in Ja La Anse range, so her accessing the earth's core would be irrelevant as all magic that came to her would be nullified.

Well, not exactly. Ja La Anse isn't an always active spell that can continuously output effects and constantly disrupt all magic.

Ja La Anse is just a temporary spirit eraser, once cast, it cannot be reused:

There was a simple reason for this: All spirits within range of this one rite had been temporarily erased from existence.

That's right... All magic, all rites—anything that used spirits was deactivated by Zia La Anse. And by the same token, Zia La Anse also ceased function immediately after being cast.

So while it removes spirits initially, the space will fill back up over time as spirits distributed from the Circuits on the atmosphere drawn into surrounding area.

 

[Lynieryz]

That's an unofficial

I'm using this translation, if you have another one, send it to me in a private conversation.