Ninjago Attack Potency update

[Lloydblitzed]

Looks alright to me too

Alright. So this means we apply the CRT now right ?

 

[Sparkive]

I'll put this up quickly, because I'm not interested in Ninjago as far as the Versus Community is concerned.
I think that from the moment Lloid says in his flashback "for some reason, elemental powers can....." it is implied that anyone with elemental powers is capable of affecting the Merge-quakes.
Even Euphasia could do something, and she's not even a ninja, in fact because of her history, it's likely that she has never trained, so is she also Universal+? (And they are throwing elements, if it is not something special about the elemental powers, how do you explain to me that throwing wind, fire or water is of any use?)



By the way "Way Of Departed" is not canon, but it is going to be (probably)
In short, if the writer makes it canon, he would lose creative autonomy (31 jul. 2018), which is why he has not made it canon, however the novel is planned in a way that does not contradict the lore as much as possible, even so the creator himself says that all chapters will recieve a overhaul (19 feb. 2021), he has to submit it to approval (31 dic. 2017) to make it canon, and that hasn't happened yet
Also the creator call it "off-canon" (14 jun. 2018)
Currently it is technically a "Cool fan fiction" (jokingly said by Tommy Kalmar [1 ene. 2018] an IP Story Expert of LEGO)

 

[Lloydblitzed]

I'll put this up quickly, because I'm not interested in Ninjago as far as the Versus Community is concerned.
I think that from the moment Lloid says in his flashback "for some reason, elemental powers can....." it is implied that anyone with elemental powers is capable of affecting the Merge-quakes.
Even Euphasia could do something, and she's not even a ninja, in fact because of her history, it's likely that she has never trained, so is she also Universal+? (And they are throwing elements, if it is not something special about the elemental powers, how do you explain to me that throwing wind, fire or water is of any use?)



By the way "Way Of Departed" is not canon, but it is going to be (probably)
In short, if the writer makes it canon, he would lose creative autonomy (31 jul. 2018), which is why he has not made it canon, however the novel is planned in a way that does not contradict the lore as much as possible, even so the creator himself says that all chapters will recieve a overhaul (19 feb. 2021), he has to submit it to approval (31 dic. 2017) to make it canon, and that hasn't happened yet
Currently it is technically Fan fiction

Just because elemental powers can shut them down doesn't disaprove anything, and in fact, only Kai and Lloyd have been shown to be able to close a mergequake alone. Just because elemental powers can shut them down doesn't mean all Elemental Masters are strong enough to close one. That's as if I said: All magicians can vaporize a mountain, so they are not mountain level as an untrained magician blew up a mountain with the help of 3 others

Also, Realms still remains Uni+ in size via the space time scan from earlier so even by not considering Way of Departed canon, this doesn't change anything (also the fact VSBW already use them as Universal+ sized)

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Looks alright to me too

Also, if this CRT can be applied, I think its fine that we close this thread

Edit: I didn't know we need 2 mod approval, this can't be closed yet mb mb

 

[Lloydblitzed]

In case u still don't accept my proofs from earlier (or think its not enough), here's why the weapons would qualify for UES:

Limited Energy System
The Golden Weapons would fit this critera, as they channel the main 4 elemental powers (proof the book is canon btw). Elemental Powers are used by multiple elemental master, including those of the main 4 elements (Kai, Cole, Jay and Zane, the elemental masters of Fire, Earth, Lightning and Ice). There are obviously multiple varients of elemental powers, and Elemental Powers can use a similar amount of power with any given technique (like with the Sword of Fire being able to harm Jay in a similar way with both fireballs and with a wall of flame)

Non-Physical Energy System
Elemental powers in general have shown that all their non physical powers scale to each other in Attack Potency (which would apply to the Golden Weapons too, as they use the same system). It was also shown that when they display an increase in energy/power, the potency of their powers and abilities increase as well, like when Lloyd got supercharged by the Matriach Dragon, increasing his power level and allowing him to deal more damage or when Garmadon drinked Moon Tea, restoring his powers and even making him stronger.

Universal Energy System
Elemental Powers have shown to display an increase in power / energy should correspond to a proportional increase in the potency of their physical statistics, like when Cole entered his Spinjitzu Burst Form, allowing him to easly knock over the Skull Sorcerer which he couldn't do in base form (he also clearly show he can channel his elemental power throught his own body). Elemental power was also shown to be channeled through the user's body, like when the ninjas use their True Potential, which also boost their physical stats

As we know earlier, The Golden Weapons use the Elemental Power System, meaning they do have some type of UES, and the Star feat can be scaled to them

@Crabwhale
Now that I proved the Golden Weapons have a UES and added more proofs for the Mergequake feat (which has been accepted by 3 other mods by now) it should be valid no?

 

[Qawsedf234]

I get the UES but from the discussion I'm backing that the feat wouldn't scale to their regular output since the weapons combined with the MW and then damaged themselves in performing the feat. If they have another high level of scaling with UES that would be fine though.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

I get the UES but from the discussion I'm backing that the feat wouldn't scale to their regular output since the weapons combined with the MW and then damaged themselves in performing the feat. If they have another high level of scaling with UES that would be fine though.

the feat was not performed by both the MW and the Golden Weapon as Tommy said the MW became a Star while the other 4 GWs fell into the comet, it would stricly scale to the 4 GWs only. Overlord also used the blob like weapons to regain a new body and become stronger (he also used them to forge an armor), indicating that the weapons were barely affected except for their physical form. They still had their full power until Zane later on drained it which is why it was weaker in S10, which indicates the weapons weren't actually damaged. MW must have been destroyed and lost its power, because the time paradox it created was solved. In conclusion, they weren't damaged, else their power wouldn't be usuable

 

[Qawsedf234]

I get what you're saying, but @Minaaaa arguments makes more sense to me so I'm going with their interpretation of events.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

I get what you're saying, but @Minaaaa arguments makes more sense to me so I'm going with their interpretation of events.

His arguments is missing one thing: MW was destroyed and lost its power, the GW didn't

 

[Qawsedf234]

My stance is final, I agree with their arguments more than yours. I don't support the proposed Tier 4 scaling.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

My stance is final, I agree with their arguments more than yours. I don't support the proposed Tier 4 scaling.

But their arguments makes no sense, as they are contradicted by what happened in S3 (GWs never made an Asteroid, how would the Time Paradox be solved if the Weapons became one instead of only destroying the MW?)
Also did you check my counter arguments?

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Welp the changes can be applied since Medusa accepted and a thread moderator said I could apply the changes.

Ty for everyone that helped here. Ths thread can be closed

 

[Dereck03]

Welp the changes can be applied since Medusa accepted and a thread moderator said I could apply the changes.

Ty for everyone that helped here. Ths thread can be closed

Kek, i replied to you there. I thought you were talking about the other thread that medeus approved, not this one.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Kek, i replied to you there. I thought you were talking about the other thread that medeus approved, not this one.

ah, so it can't be applied yet then? (Medeus said this one was fine too)

 

[Dereck03]

I see you have some disagreement here so i'm not sure.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

I see you have some disagreement here so i'm not sure.

The majority of people still agrees in favor of the changes (also, your vote is pretty much the deciding one now)

 

[Lloydblitzed]

I see you have some disagreement here so i'm not sure.

Your input would still be appreciated as we only need one more and the Tier 2 part was already accepted and we only need a 2nd approval for the Tier 4 part

 

[Lloydblitzed]

In case u still don't accept my proofs from earlier (or think its not enough), here's why the weapons would qualify for UES:

Limited Energy System
The Golden Weapons would fit this critera, as they channel the main 4 elemental powers (proof the book is canon btw). Elemental Powers are used by multiple elemental master, including those of the main 4 elements (Kai, Cole, Jay and Zane, the elemental masters of Fire, Earth, Lightning and Ice). There are obviously multiple varients of elemental powers, and Elemental Powers can use a similar amount of power with any given technique (like with the Sword of Fire being able to harm Jay in a similar way with both fireballs and with a wall of flame)

Non-Physical Energy System
Elemental powers in general have shown that all their non physical powers scale to each other in Attack Potency (which would apply to the Golden Weapons too, as they use the same system). It was also shown that when they display an increase in energy/power, the potency of their powers and abilities increase as well, like when Lloyd got supercharged by the Matriach Dragon, increasing his power level and allowing him to deal more damage or when Garmadon drinked Moon Tea, restoring his powers and even making him stronger.

Universal Energy System
Elemental Powers have shown to display an increase in power / energy should correspond to a proportional increase in the potency of their physical statistics, like when Cole entered his Spinjitzu Burst Form, allowing him to easly knock over the Skull Sorcerer which he couldn't do in base form (he also clearly show he can channel his elemental power throught his own body). Elemental power was also shown to be channeled through the user's body, like when the ninjas use their True Potential, which also boost their physical stats

As we know earlier, The Golden Weapons use the Elemental Power System, meaning they do have some type of UES, and the Star feat can be scaled to them

@Dereck03 Mainly, what do you think of this

 

[FinePoint]

First, let me say that this thread is very well researched and contains plenty of evidence and effort, which I think is an underrated quality in many content revision threads, Despite having no familiarity with Ninjago, it does a great job of laying the framework for the proposal, so great job.

It seems to me that a universal energy system is not only supported by evidence by seems intended by the creators, so I will accept that, and therefore the 4-C feat. I have no serious objections to the tier 2 proposals either, including for the dragons.

Anything I didn't comment on you can consider me neutral for now. There's a lot in this thread, especially when including everyone's comments, so it's a lot for me to juggle in my head at once.

assuming the star creation feat is valid:

why would Lloyd be able to output 4-C levels of energy on the regular if the weapons were destroyed in the process of creating a star?

say Character A performed a 4-C feat via collecting all their energy and blowing themself up, it wouldn't scale to their usual stats because, y'know, they died in the process.

As far as I know, the attack potency section of a profile is indeed a record of their strongest possible attack, regardless of consequences, not what they can regularly dish out- and so a self-destruct attack would still be valid, although perhaps wise to clarify that in the rating.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

First, let me say that this thread is very well researched and contains plenty of evidence and effort, which I think is an underrated quality in many content revision threads, Despite having no familiarity with Ninjago, it does a great job of laying the framework for the proposal, so great job.

It seems to me that a universal energy system is not only supported by evidence by seems intended by the creators, so I will accept that, and therefore the 4-C feat. I have no serious objections to the tier 2 proposals either, including for the dragons.

Anything I didn't comment on you can consider me neutral for now. There's a lot in this thread, especially when including everyone's comments, so it's a lot for me to juggle in my head at once.

As far as I know, the attack potency section of a profile is indeed a record of their strongest possible attack, regardless of consequences, not what they can regularly dish out- and so a self-destruct attack would still be valid, although perhaps wise to clarify that in the rating.

Alright, well since we got enough votes for the everything except Low 1-C (which tbh, I didn't really plan on adding in the end) ,ig we can apply this CRT then
(Question before I do so tho: Would u agree with the Multiplier too since its included with the 4-C stuff)

 

[FinePoint]

Alright, well since we got enough votes for the everything except Low 1-C (which tbh, I didn't really plan on adding in the end) ,ig we can apply this CRT then
(Question before I do so tho: Would u agree with the Multiplier too since its included with the 4-C stuff)

Well, was there ever a follow-up to this?
42 with no context could mean a lot of things, and is also a very common internet joke, which makes me believe that is this case here.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Well, was there ever a follow-up to this?
42 with no context could mean a lot of things, and is also a very common internet joke, which makes me believe that is this case here.

He meant 42x stronger then Wojira, as the question was "How much stronger is Nya [...]"

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

He meant 42x stronger then Wojira, as the question was "How much stronger is Nya [...]"

.. Or he meant deep meaning search syndrome (where this joke came from).

 

[FinePoint]

He meant 42x stronger then Wojira, as the question was "How much stronger is Nya [...]"

I understand that, but the x is not necessarily implied, and the response question even points that out. Some possibilities include:

• 42x stronger
• 42% stronger
• 42 megajoules stronger
• 42 leagues stronger

And since responding with just "42" is a common internet meme, it makes me think that is all that was meant here.
And so I can't realistically agree with that particular part of the scaling chain numerically, even if it seems clear there is a significant power gap.
I am not sure exactly how that affects the chain.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

I understand that, but the x is not necessarily implied, and the response question even points that out. Some possibilities include:

• 42x stronger
• 42% stronger
• 42 megajoules stronger
• 42 leagues stronger

And since responding with just "42" is a common internet meme, it makes me think that is all that was meant here.

Alright, when reading it again, ur right on this one. I'll apply everything except the Wojira multiplier and the Low 1-C Source Dragon. Thank you for ur input, and thank u for every mod and people that participated

 

[FinePoint]

I've re-opened this thread since @SeijiSetto brought to me an important argument which I think we need to consider.
I will allow them to write it out.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

I've re-opened this thread since @SeijiSetto brought to me an important argument which I think we need to consider.
I will allow them to write it out.

Alright
I swear this CRT will go endless at this rate

 

[SeijiSetto]

I've re-opened this thread since @SeijiSetto brought to me an important argument which I think we need to consider.
I will allow them to write it out.

thanks.

assuming the star creation feat is valid:

why would Lloyd be able to output 4-C levels of energy on the regular if the weapons were destroyed in the process of creating a star?

say Character A performed a 4-C feat via collecting all their energy and blowing themself up, it wouldn't scale to their usual stats (i.e normal punchkicks and energy blasts or whatever) because, y'know, they died in the process.

i already mentioned it here. even Qawsedf disagreed with that here too.

I get the UES but from the discussion I'm backing that the feat wouldn't scale to their regular output since the weapons combined with the MW and then damaged themselves in performing the feat.

they would still get like 4-C via self-destruction or whatever you wanna call it on the profiles, but it would be its own separate thing.
"[X tier], 4-C with Creation"
another example: an attack that blows up the thing performing the attack is not its normal output. if Character A charged up an attack for 5 minutes and it was... idunno, 5-B, would you say their regular attacks are ALSO 5-B?

 

[Lloydblitzed]

thanks.


i already mentioned it here. even Qawsedf disagreed with that here too.

they would still get like 4-C via self-destruction or whatever you wanna call it on the profiles, but it would be its own separate thing.
"[X tier], 4-C with Creation"
another example: an attack that blows up the thing performing the attack is not its normal output. if Character A charged up an attack for 5 minutes and it was... idunno, 5-B, would you say their regular attacks are ALSO 5-B?

Finally someone with a constructive argument...
But no, it wouldn't be self destruction, as the most important thing that to be considered is that the MW was destroyed, while the other 4 weapons fell into the comet and their full power could still be used, indicating that the weapons weren't really damaged (meanwhile the MW did). And even more implied by the fact the Overlord needed their power to forge the powerful Golden Armor. This wouldn't be possible if the weapons were damaged. Also I don't see how the charge up thing would apply, as the weapons all togheter has the same output all the time

 

[Grand_Astartes]

So if I understand correctly, you're saying the MW and GW came together and created a star, but the GW would scale to Star because they weren't completely destroyed by the feat? And they should still have power because of the Golden Armor?

 

[Lloydblitzed]

So if I understand correctly, you're saying the MW and GW came together and created a star, but the GW would scale to Star because they weren't completely destroyed by the feat? And they should still have power because of the Golden Armor?

The GW destroyed the MW, and that made a Star. The MW was completly destroyed now exist as a Star, but the GWs weren't and fell into the comet and then was transformed into the Golden Armor. Since according to Zane, only weapons of equal power can destroy the MW, but the GWs were still left usuable and their power weren't lost, it would scale to the 4 GWs. (the MW doesn't exist anymore, so there is no way it fell into the comet too, else the Time Paradox wouldn't be fixed)

 

[Lloydblitzed]

The GW destroyed the MW, and that made a Star. The MW was completly destroyed now exist as a Star, but the GWs weren't and fell into the comet and then was transformed into the Golden Armor. Since according to Zane, only weapons of equal power can destroy the MW, but the GWs were still left usuable and their power weren't lost, it would scale to the 4 GWs. (the MW doesn't exist anymore, so there is no way it fell into the comet too, else the Time Paradox wouldn't be fixed)

So what u do you think of this @FinePoint ?

 

[Grand_Astartes]

So if this is the case I can see the feat being Star, I am sure everyone agrees with that. What I haven't seen yet is:

• Why it would scale to each of the individual weapons
• Why this would be the normal output of each the weapons
• Why the statements from Tommy about them being merged wouldn't work
• Why it would scale to each of the ninjas
• Why the weapons becoming a golden blob would not make it unqualified for fully scaling to the feat

I don't doubt that some of these were probably addressed somewhere but this thing is 5 pages lol.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

So if this is the case I can see the feat being Star, I am sure everyone agrees with that. What I haven't seen yet is:

• Why it would scale to each of the individual weapons
• Why this would be the normal output of each the weapons
• Why the statements from Tommy about them being merged wouldn't work
• Why it would scale to each of the ninjas
• Why the weapons becoming a golden blob would not make it unqualified for fully scaling to the feat

I don't doubt that some of these were probably addressed somewhere but this thing is 5 pages lol.

1. Doesn't scale to each individual weapons
2. It would scale to the normal output of all of them togheter (and Lloyd has the power of all of them togheter). It would also directly scale to Garmadon has he can wisthand their power (I mean bro held the Mega Weapon for a very long time + said he could wisthand their power anyways)
3. His merged statement wouldn't work bc he said the weapons made an asteroid which isn't what happened (I mean show legit says they fell in a comet)
4. Reason why it scale to all the Ninjas (execpt very obviously Lloyd) is basically explained in the 1st message of the CRT in page 1
5. Even by being a blob, the weapons weren't fully destroyed and still held their power (and this has been shown with 2 Nindroids still dying from the blob, which happened with everyone too weak for the Golden Weapons). Also the Golden Weapons would vanish if they ended up actually destroyed (Which is what happened in S16 and with the Mega Weapon). So basically, they just changed shape

 

[Grand_Astartes]

Assuming all of that is true, then I don't see what is wrong with Star level at a glance

 

[Minaaaa]

3. His merged statement wouldn't work bc he said the weapons made an asteroid which isn't what happened (I mean show legit says they fell in a comet)

This is only one statement, what about this one

Also given that the show itself implies they fused, with Garmadon later saying they collided with each other.

The GW destroyed the MW, and that made a Star. The MW was completly destroyed now exist as a Star, but the GWs weren't and fell into the comet and then was transformed into the Golden Armor.

Except

the destruction of the Golden Weapons AND the Mega Weapon.

with Zane backing this up

5. Even by being a blob, the weapons weren't fully destroyed and still held their power (and this has been shown with 2 Nindroids still dying from the blob, which happened with everyone too weak for the Golden Weapons)

• The weapons were completely unusable in from their previous state, which is why they were reformed

. Also the Golden Weapons would vanish if they ended up actually destroyed (Which is what happened in S16 and with the Mega Weapon). So basically, they just changed shape

• Those are two different kinds of destruction

Also, i find the use of the mergequakes as AP feats as deceptive. The Mergequakes would only destroy the world if multiple of them are happening, it just doesnt make sense that they would be comparable to just one (Timestamp 7:19)

Zane: I do not believe you understand the severity of the data here. The MergeQuakes are not simply getting worse. Their frequency is about to hit a tipping point. Right now they're appearing one at a time, but very soon, they will be everywhere, simultaneously. Until finally, all is destroyed.

When Empress Beatrix used her Mergequake weapon to open more, she pushed the mergequakes to their tipping point, therefore destroying the world. (Timestamp 8:49)

Zane: I don't mean to interrupt, but the Empress has caused us to reach the tipping point. The world-destroying MergeQuake storm has already begun.

This means its consistent that the Mergequakes can only destroy the world in large quantities and not a singular one. This shouldnt be an AP feat as a singular mergequake is unquantifiable and should just give them spatial hax.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

This is only one statement, what about this one

Also given that the show itself implies they fused, with Garmadon later saying they collided with each other.



Except

with Zane backing this up

• The weapons were completely unusable in from their previous state, which is why they were reformed

• Those are two different kinds of destruction

Also, i find the use of the mergequakes as AP feats as deceptive. The Mergequakes would only destroy the world if multiple of them are happening, it just doesnt make sense that they would be comparable to just one (Timestamp 7:19)


When Empress Beatrix used her Mergequake weapon to open more, she pushed the mergequakes to their tipping point, therefore destroying the world. (Timestamp 8:49)



This means its consistent that the Mergequakes can only destroy the world in large quantities and not a singular one. This shouldnt be an AP feat as a singular mergequake is unquantifiable and should just give them spatial hax.

1.Tommy statement is wrong here. If they fused, how was the Time Paradox fixed? S3 legit contradicts it, as 4 weapons fell into the comet, which would legit mean the Time Paradox wasn't fixed (which did happened) so no
2. Zane statement is contradicted by the fact the weapons landed in the comet (he didn't even know they did back then)....
3. If their power could still be used, this doesn't mean its un usuable.
4. The Mergequakes would destroy all the Realms if multiple happen in the same time, stopping 2 Universe from moving and sharing a same isn't in any possible way spatial hax
5. Tier 2 was already accepted, no need to argue against it anymore

 

[Minaaaa]

1.Tommy statement is wrong here. If they fused, how was the Time Paradox fixed?

His statement isn't wrong, the clip i posted literally implies this is what happens and given Garmadons statement.
The time paradox was fixed because it was destroyed with the other weapons when they exploded...

3. If their power could still be used, this doesn't mean its un usuable.

It was unusable in its previous state... which is why they had to melt them down

4. The Mergequakes would destroy all the Realms if multiple happen in the same time, stopping 2 Universe from moving and sharing a same isn't in any possible way spatial hax

The mergequakes needing multiple of them to destroy the world would already make the feat invalid. Closing a crack in reality is just spatial hax.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

The mergequakes needing multiple of them to destroy the world would already make the feat invalid. Closing a crack in reality is just spatial hax.

In fact even one can destroy Realms if it's big enough. They are like merging into one big mergequake, so we need context here.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

His statement isn't wrong, the clip i posted literally implies this is what happens and given Garmadons statement.
The time paradox was fixed because it was destroyed with the other weapons when they exploded...

It was unusable in its previous state... which is why they had to melt them down

The mergequakes needing multiple of them to destroy the world would already make the feat invalid. Closing a crack in reality is just spatial hax.

S3 and S10 litteraly contradicts all ur GWs arguments. If theywere destroyed, how could their power be used again?