NiGHTS Into Dreams Conceptual Manipulation

[TheImagineBreaker121212]

before makiing this thread, I conversed with a few users about conceptual manipulation and whether or not certain things classify as a certain ability or type. I asked about carl jung's collective unconscious/jungian archetypes theo

We all have Free Will!

ry was in the mix and it was agreed with ultima reality it could be treated similarlly/like plato's theory, so this thread in due part is a response to this here: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3777057#6
let's start by using these interviews: http://www.nightsintodreams.com/?p=1343 and http://shmuplations.com/nights/ and https://easternmind.tumblr.com/post/254302563/heydaysofnaka

Powerful Interviews With Their Questions And Answers For NiGHTS

What were some of the challenges of creating this "dream world"?

Naka: Well, the very first designs that Oshima drew were very different from where we ended up. He interpreted the theme in a more fantastic way, a fantasy world of dreams. When I saw that, I told him that no one really has dreams like that. Dreams are usually closer to reality, and bear more of a resemblance to one's inner psyche and subconscious. Everyone dreams, so I said let's try and create a more natural image, something closer to the dreams we all have. The world of NiGHTS (in this game at least) derives from that way of thinking.

Iizuka: Since this was a world of "dreams" we were depicting—the mysterious world of the unconscious—we had to understand the whole thing before we could begin creating it. Take an island. If it's a real island, it's easy enough to create. Once we settled on the "dream" concept, though, it meant we had to design and create every detail of that island ex nihilo.

Nidcom: NiGHTS is considered to be one the most magical, inspiring and mischievous characters Sonic Team ever created, continuing on through dreams long after the game has been won. Has NiGHTS ever appeared in your own dreams?

Yuji Naka: Of course. NiGHTS came from your dreams too. Being so, NiGHTS will keep living for a long time.

Nidcom: NiGHTS into Dreams has a lot of symbolism, you and Sonic Team did a lot of research into dream studies and Jung's Dream Archetypes. It is speculated that each character in NiGHTS is influenced by a specific Archetype. What Archetype inspired NiGHTS, if any?

Yuji Naka: NiGHTS, a hero, originated in "Shadow" which means another side of the self as defined by Jung in his dream definitions. Elliot and Claris, who have strayed from the dream world, originated from Jung's Animus and Anima. Persona items that appear in the Wii version originate from Jung's dream theory, too.

Nidcom: Many years ago I read an interview with Sonic Team where the sources of dream research were discussed. Jung and Freud were mentioned but a third name 'Friedrich Holtz' was said to be central to NiGHTS into Dreams. Can you tell us a bit about this man and how his work influenced the game? We have tried to research Holtz for many years yet we have found little about him.

Yuji Naka: He is one of the psychologists who followed Jung's thoughts. He too defined dream elements as much as Jung, and showed us "another world" which we called the "Dream World." NiGHTS also reflects the thoughts of scholars who researched these dreams.

Nidcom: It is now well known that there was an idea for a boss called Selph. What became of this boss, why did it not make it in to the final game and what did the boss look like?

Yuji Naka: Selph is one of the original types of Jung's theory. This idea was omitted since the production period was short on time. It was thought that it would be introduced as a concealed boss, as the one defined as "Myself I could never be exceeded". Visualization of this character was made to some degree.

First level Nightmare

About the collective conscious/unconscious/archetypes
https://ejop.psychopen.eu/index.php/ejop/article/view/389/html

http://faculty.collin.edu/mbailey/jungianarchetypes.htm

https://books.google.com/books?id=_...ungian archetypes transcend spacetime&f=false

https://www.processpsychology.com/new-articles2/Jung.pdf https://carljungdepthpsychologysite.blog/2019/04/13/carl-jung-on-plato-anthology/#.XfBE3uhKg2w http://www.english.hawaii.edu/criticalink/plato/terms/archetype.html http://www.philosopher.eu/texts/carl-jung-summary/

http://www.kheper.net/topics/Jung/collective_unconscious.html

Jungian Archetypes Are Platonic Forms: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archetype#Jungian_archetypes And https://medium.com/@DanSanchezV/gods-platonic-forms-archetypes-and-superheroes-da7e7fc7a00d And http://www.charlesdominey.com/documents/thesis_complete.pdf and http://www.actforlibraries.org/carl-g-jung-archetypes-of-the-collective-unconscious/ and https://www.myss.com/free-resources/sacred-contracts-and-your-archetypes/appendix-plato/ and https://www.processpsychology.com/new-articles2/Jung.pdf and https://appliedjung.com/complex-archetype-symbol/ and http://mlwi.magix.net/neoplatonism.htm and https://www.beautyanalysis.com/research/perfect-face/archetype-theory/

How it applies to NiGHTS
well it's clear that the bosses are jungian archetypes, but significantly so, NiGHTS is a Jungian Archetype Of The Shadows.

Wizeman can create things like this individualize consciousness and so on so forth things like that https://youtu.be/r_NnCkXt7KQ?t=5795 So Wizeman could be considered conceptual or have Conceptual abilities

the "dreams" in Nights Into Dreams Are Dreams/Worlds Of Both Collective Conscious And/Or Unconscious Let's also note Nights Dimensions is specifically mentioned as one of these assets as a dream in a plane of dreams in this scan https://ia800302.us.archive.org/Boo...e_007_-_may_1996_UK_0030.jp2&scale=1&rotate=0 At the same time, Wizeman said he could warp, destroy all of this AND he created Nightmare, which contains every nightmare ever dreamed as a separate reality. https://youtu.be/r_NnCkXt7KQ?t=1h37m https://youtu.be/r_NnCkXt7KQ?t=2532

NiGHTS also survived after beating Wizeman despite being told such an event would kill him, So Conceptual Anchoring?

so that's concepts/ideas that NiGHTS and his adversaries can warp. Overall Conceptual Manipulation should be considered, it's practical, ethical and clear as day.

 

[Bobsican]

Here's a tip, don't rely too much on links, quote the important parts in bold on the OP of the thread so it's far easier to be discussed the whole thing.

Anyways, as usual, author intent can't be used to rate a character, but I haven't fully readed the stuff yet, however.

 

[TheImagineBreaker121212]

Here's a tip, don't rely too much on links, quote the important parts in bold on the OP of the thread so it's far easier to be discussed the whole thing.
Anyways, as usual, author intent can't be used to rate a character, but I haven't fully readed the stuff yet, however.

well if that's the case then NiGHTS and the bosses can or cannot be considered conceptual lifeforms (in this wiki) but still have conceptual abilities.

 

[Bobsican]

Well, the stuff that backs it up beyond author intent itself can still be used, so not all is lost.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Following

 

[Antvasima]

I do not know if being based on Jungian archetypes is sufficient for conceptual manipulation to be assigned. You can ask DontTalkDT, Sera EX, Assaltwaffle, Andytrenom, Promestein, and Kepekley23 to comment here if you wish.

 

[TheImagineBreaker121212]

I do not know if being based on Jungian archetypes is sufficient for conceptual manipulation to be assigned. You can ask DontTalkDT, Sera EX, Assaltwaffle, Andytrenom, Promestein, and Kepekley23 to comment here if you wish.

i mean that's not it entirely, the dreams are made by and are connected to the collective unconscious (the basis for jungian archetypes) and it was actually said that dreams in NiD is how they are visioned by carl jung's theory and the research behing his theory. i'll check it out though.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Manipulation "The concept of Dreams" isn't conceptual manipulation; that's an ability we can't really be lenient on applying. It could apply for Dream Manipulation however.

 

[Antvasima]

That seems to make sense.

 

[TheImagineBreaker121212]

Manipulation Dreams isn't conceptual manipulation; that's an ability we can't really be leniant on applying. It could apply for Dream Manipulation however.

except just manipulating dreams is not the premise for the assertion.

first of all let's start with what's the collective conscious/unconscious

https://www.google.com/search?newwi........0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j0.CXhY1PqJUx0

col┬Àlec┬Àtive un┬Àcon┬Àscious

/kə╦êlektiv ╦îən╦êkänSHəs/

nou

1. (in Jungian psychology) the part of the unconscious mind which is derived from ancestral memory and experience and is common to all humankind, as distinct from the individual's unconscious.

https://ia800302.us.archive.org/Boo...e_007_-_may_1996_UK_0030.jp2&scale=1&rotate=0

this scan literally says one of the dreams on the plane of dreams is of the collective conscious/unconscious, although they are dreams, they have concepts.

and there's the interview quotes about it as well

Naka: Well, the very first designs that Oshima drew were very different from where we ended up. He interpreted the theme in a more fantastic way, a fantasy world of dreams. When I saw that, I told him that no one really has dreams like that. Dreams are usually closer to reality, and bear more of a resemblance to one's inner psyche and subconscious. Everyone dreams, so I said let's try and create a more natural image, something closer to the dreams we all have. The world of NiGHTS (in this game at least) derives from that way of thinking.

Iizuka: Since this was a world of "dreams" we were depicting—the mysterious world of the unconscious—we had to understand the whole thing before we could begin creating it. Take an island. If it's a real island, it's easy enough to create. Once we settled on the "dream" concept, though, it meant we had to design and create every detail of that island ex nihilo.

Nidcom: Many years ago I read an interview with Sonic Team where the sources of dream research were discussed. Jung and Freud were mentioned but a third name 'Friedrich Holtz' was said to be central to NiGHTS into Dreams. Can you tell us a bit about this man and how his work influenced the game? We have tried to research Holtz for many years yet we have found little about him.

Yuji Naka: He is one of the psychologists who followed Jung's thoughts. He too defined dream elements as much as Jung, and showed us "another world" which we called the "Dream World." NiGHTS also reflects the thoughts of scholars who researched these dreams.

Nidcom: It is now well known that there was an idea for a boss called Selph. What became of this boss, why did it not make it in to the final game and what did the boss look like?

Yuji Naka: Selph is one of the original types of Jung's theory. This idea was omitted since the production period was short on time. It was thought that it would be introduced as a concealed boss, as the one defined as "Myself I could never be exceeded". Visualization of this character was made to some degree.

^^^^^^^^^ if dreams is a concet and are of the collective conscious/unconscious then it's of jungian motif ^^^^^ all in all it's both conceptual manipulation and dream manipulation.should be applicable then.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Almost anything can be called a concept, but we don't grant conceptual manipulation based on manipulating simple stuff such as dreams or the consciousness of people. That just sounds like Dream Manipulation and Mind Manipulation respectively. An example of Conceptual manipulation would be the ability to erase the concept of pain and in turn everyone in the entire Universe/Multiverse is now incapable of feeling pain until someone recreates the concept.

We only grant conceptual manipulation for manipulating really general concepts and not very specific ones such as dreams or minds/consciousness.

 

[Antvasima]

Medeus is correct as far as I am aware.

 

[TheImagineBreaker121212]

Almost anything can be called a concept, but we don't grant conceptual manipulation based on manipulating simple stuff such as dreams or the consciousness of people. That just sounds like Dream Manipulation and Mind Manipulation respectively. An example of Conceptual manipulation would be the ability to erase the concept of pain and in turn everyone in the entire Universe/Multiverse is now incapable of feeling pain until someone recreates the concept.
We only grant conceptual manipulation for manipulating really general concepts and not very specific ones such as dreams or minds/consciousness.

It's a concept, I never said that alone made it conceptual manipulation, okay so you don't understand how jungian archetypes work, as i've shown the collective conscious/unnconscious was agreed to treated similarly as platonic forms, In fact i don't think you know dream theory if this was your response. it's clear the worlds, dreams and the planes of the verse works on the collective conscious/unconscious, including the combined works of the psychoanalysts Carl Jung, Sigmund Freud and Friedrich Holtz, usually autthor intent wouldn't work but since it goes in absolute sync and tandem with what's in the verse, the proposition is fair and undeniable.

Wizeman, Reala and NiGHTS can warp dreams, reality and the said mentioned collective conscious/unconscious consciousness =/= collective conscious/unconscious, they are different and one is far complex then the other. it's called collective for a reason, the conscious/unconscious is universal, while one's conscious is individual, if you do not know about jung's archetypes/collective conscious/unconscious, you should be either 1. asking questions about it assuming you don't know or 2. rethink this. because what you said is not how carl jung's theory of dreams works.

once again; conceptual manipulation or conceptual manipulation and dream manipulation.

 

[TheImagineBreaker121212]

Medeus is correct as far as I am aware.

I can't see it, i don't think he knows a significant bit about jung's theory to be considered valid especially if he's comparing one's consciousness to the colective conscious/unconscious, because that's not how it works. another point is that what he says doesn't attack how reala, nights and wizeman can warp reality, dreams and said collective conscious/unconscious.

 

[Promestein]

I'm inclined to agree with Medeus

 

[TheImagineBreaker121212]

I'm inclined to agree with Medeus

do you mind explaining? there seems to be a lack of understanding of the collective unconscious here, it's not merely attacking the consciousness of a person/the people as medeus claims

 

[ElixirBlue]

Ok, Imagine, explain in a short summary of why this is conceptual, cause i'm a bit lost.

 

[Bobsican]

I have to ask:

As what type of Conceptual Manipulation would this fall as? The OP doesn't say which exactly.

 

[TheImagineBreaker121212]

Ok, Imagine, explain in a short summary of why this is conceptual, cause i'm a bit lost.

As what type of Conceptual Manipulation would this fall as? The OP doesn't say which exactly..

good question

let's start with these (other than the interviews): https://nid.fandom.com/wiki/Carl_Jung and https://home.uni-leipzig.de/jgames/1box-week/nights-into-dreams-38-2/ (read these for better understanding)

the reason this is conceptual is because of the inclusion of the dream theory otherwise known as jungian archetypes or say the collective unconscious (this was made by carl jung).

these are absolute, transcendent unchangeable ideas made to represent the platonic eidos of the mind of not the individual, but the entire scope of the person and the people a metaphysical approach, of a unconscious network an example of such archetypes would be the shadows (with NiGHTS and Reala confirmed to be The Shadow Archetypes), the mothers, the self, the persona and etc.

anyway it's confirmed here https://ia800302.us.archive.org/Boo...e_007_-_may_1996_UK_0030.jp2&scale=1&rotate=0

that the worlds, dreams and planes are of the collective unconscious

and the interview quotes above further supports this

NiGHTS, Reala And Wizeman can warp, create and destroy such fundamentals

as for what type of conceptual manipulation? since ultima reality and agree to treat it the same as Platonic Forms would be treated I'd say Types 2-1 but Type 1 is far much more likely then 2 since it's consistently meant to be a part of the cosmology, both the material and wog agrees so.

 

[Antvasima]

Please structure your posts and grammar in a more coherent fashion. Thank you.

 

[TheImagineBreaker121212]

Please structure your posts and grammar in a more coherent fashion. Thank you.

alright, i have a feeling it's gonna take time for this crt to get some awareness and proper evaluation, calc and measures, until then I request this interesting thread not be closed until that end succeeds thank you very much

 

[Antvasima]

I cannot promise you to not close this until you get your way.

 

[TheImagineBreaker121212]

I cannot promise you to not close this until you get your way.

okay then.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looking up the stuff about "Collective Conscious" and "Ancestral Memories" that just sounds like an advanced level of memory manipulation and Dream Manipulation. That they manipulated the dreams and memories of everyone who ever lived. Which is still not conceptual manipulation.

 

[TheImagineBreaker121212]

Looking up the stuff about "Collective Conscious" and "Ancestral Memories" that just sounds like an advanced level of memory manipulation and Dream Manipulation. That the manipulated the dreams and memories of everyone who ever lived. Which is still not conceptual manipulation.

It is shown the dreams are coneptual, I posted the information about that and info on jung's archetypes at my end in the mid ground of my crt request, that's the starters of it yeah, but that's pretty basic, jung's theory is not something you can just google search in a hard minute, firstly when you're searching for things like that you have to search for specifiic things or you're not getting the full lineup meaning you need to research it although if you really don't understand despite it go ask ultima reality about it, him and I know a good bit about conceptual stuff, and when you get a response, tell me what he says, because jung's archetypes has contents that allows it to be treated the same as Platonic Forms. he may provide more info than I have. also if you've accepted NiGHTS follow's Freud's And Jung's theories on it's cosmology then i'm glad that's settled, that means we're getting somewhere. the only thing we need is like 5 more inputs from just about anyone and see what hax or manipulative constant can be added. I know it's conceptual manipulation but in case not, really strong dream manipulation, mind manipulation and possible abstraction (NiGHTS and Reala being Archetypes Of The Shadows and the other bosses representing archetypes as well, Wizeman making them and well you know the deal). Again I insist you ask ultima reality, about platonic forms and jung's archetypes.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It would be more preferably to ask for his input on this thread.

 

[TheImagineBreaker121212]

It would be more preferably to ask for his input on this thread.

I kind of did, even the people ant suggested and only promy came over with not much to say, I asked ultima reality but we may have to wait for him for a hour or day, I could ask woki.

 

[TheImagineBreaker121212]

that's kind of why I requested this to not be closed until a significant number of recognition is achieved and enough inputs to deny, neutralize or accept the revision. i've been here long enough to recognize which threads are coming in steady and others that are late bloomers.

 

[Antvasima]

You can ask Sera EX and Assaltwaffle as well if you wish.

 

[TheImagineBreaker121212]

I did, they didnt respond tbh

 

[TheImagineBreaker121212]

personally, I believe ultima reality should comment, considering the reason I created this thread was a response from him in another thead, this was about adding jung's archetypes to conceptual manipulation page

he said "I am not really sure why that's necessary, since Jung's Archetypes are similar in many ways to Plato's Forms, and people who knew about both wouldn't really have trouble associating the two, in regards to profiles and the like."

and after a few replies with another user, he commented again

" I said that Jungian Archetypes are already similar in many ways to Platonic Forms, so putting them in the Conceptual Manipulation page is redundant, in my view."

I knew Jung's Archetypes Were Platonic Forms, I just wanted it to be specified so we don't have to play guessing games with people who don't understand how it works like for example right now DDM has just gotten into the basics of jung's archetypes and mistakes it for just dream and mind manipulation just learning of not even 10% of it's basics when it goes deeper than that.

Antvasima in that thread you even said that ultima made sense. (in this thread: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3777057#6)

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the problem is that several of our staff members who were knowledgeable about that sort of thing have quit from the wiki, but you can ask Promestein and the people I mentioned earlier if you wish.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Reppuzan used to be one of our best at explaining conceptual manipulation and causality manipulation. But he has sadly retired from the wiki.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. I think that Assaltwaffle still visits from time to time though.

 

[TheImagineBreaker121212]

Reppuzan used to be one of our best at explaining conceptual manipulation and causality manipulation. But he has sadly retired from the wiki.

yeah I also knew livingtribunal1 before he quit fictional debating.

 

[TheImagineBreaker121212]

Yes. I think that Assaltwaffle still visits from time to time though.

I honestly wouldn't doubt them just having other priorities and not coming because of that.

 

[Bobsican]

Considering the definitions in concept manip, as this is something of a nature within across all the verse, if this is indeed concept manip, it would fall as type 2.

Can you mention some of the potential usages of it? Many should be able to do better input on this if you put this clear.

 

[TheImagineBreaker121212]

Considering the definitions in concept manip, as this is something of a nature within across all the verse, if this is indeed concept manip, it would fall as type 2.
Can you mention some of the potential usages of it? Many should be able to do better input on this if you put this clear.

me and Ultima Reality agree Jung's Archetypes/Collective Unconscious can be treated the same as Platonic Forms are and we know much about it, now if I had to estimate the haxes and uses for this, it ocmes down to Powerful Dream Manipulation, Strong Mind Manipulation, Abstract Existence (If a person represents a part of the unconscious like Reala And NiGHTS are The Shadows And Persona while representing the dreams, envy and nightmares of everyone even us according to Yuji Naka And Takashi Lizuka) and finally Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2-1 But Type 1 is more likely and preferable)

jung's archetypes are empirical, plato's forms are philosophical, as jung wrote himself but the concepts are same through and through.

 

[Bobsican]

Type 1 is very rare, usually tier 1 stuff gets it.

TYpe 2 seems to be the most fitting one here.

Anyways, if the proof has been accepted, then this can be legit, but you should summarize in the OP the exact powers that would come from this and to who (So sudden stuff being added out of nowhere doesn't become an issue).