New Year, new metal knight

[Damage3245]

Okay, let me try and explain the issues here.

Preparation, as far as I'm aware, does not just mean "Something that exists in the verse that the character can theoretically get their hands on", it has to be shown that it is within the characters means, that it is something they've gotten their hands on in the series itself, that it has to be a part of their canon fighting style, etc.

For example, we would not add guns to Tatsumaki's profile using the reasoning that "Guns exist in OPM, and Tatsumaki is powerful enough to steal them and use them, so therefore with Prep time, Tatsumaki should have every gun added to her equipment arsenal."

Or "Bang is friends with Atomic Samurai and Atomic Samurai would probably give him his sword if he asked, so we should give Bang access to Atomic Samurai's sword with prep time."

No, we wouldn't do this. Not only are these arguments not directly based on evidence, but at this point we're not creating profiles for the canon characters themselves, but for hypothetical versions of the characters that we speculate on. It goes too far into headcanon territory.

So when I see arguments like this:

poison gas would be incredibly easy for him to get as well.
adhesive manipulation? Why wouldn't metal knight, possibly the richest character on the planet, not have access to some adhesive glue stuff that his 10 year old former assistant could

It doesn't matter that poison gas or adhesives exists in the verse and Metal Knight could theoretically acquire it. It's not a part of his shown fighting style so it doesn't belong on his profile.

ice manip? we already have the ability to flash freeze stuff irl anyways.

It doesn't matter that "ice manipulation" is a thing for IRL technology... We're not going to give genius inventors the capabilities of every piece of technology on Earth just because it exists IRL. This is not a part of his fighting style.

bug net is basically just an emp, why wouldn't metal knight know anything about something like that

It doesn't matter whether or not he knows about it. I'm sure as a genius he knows about a lot of items of technology or science. That doesn't mean he uses it himself.

There are characters in the Marvel Universe who know about the existence of magic, and are friends with powerful sorcerers who could theoretically teach them magic. That doesn't mean we would say with prep time that "This character could learn magic if they wanted to, so we should give them of all the abilities of Doctor Strange as a possibility."

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Okay, let me try and explain the issues here.

Preparation, as far as I'm aware, does not just mean "Something that exists in the verse that the character can theoretically get their hands on", it has to be shown that it is within the characters means, that it is something they've gotten their hands on in the series itself, that it has to be a part of their canon fighting style, etc.

For example, we would not add guns to Tatsumaki's profile using the reasoning that "Guns exist in OPM, and Tatsumaki is powerful enough to steal them and use them, so therefore with Prep time, Tatsumaki should have every gun added to her equipment arsenal."

Or "Bang is friends with Atomic Samurai and Atomic Samurai would probably give him his sword if he asked, so we should give Bang access to Atomic Samurai's sword with prep time."

No, we wouldn't do this. Not only are these arguments not directly based on evidence, but at this point we're not creating profiles for the canon characters themselves, but for hypothetical versions of the characters that we speculate on. It goes too far into headcanon territory.

So when I see arguments like this:



It doesn't matter that poison gas or adhesives exists in the verse and Metal Knight could theoretically acquire it. It's not a part of his shown fighting style so it doesn't belong on his profile.



It doesn't matter that "ice manipulation" is a thing for IRL technology... We're not going to give genius inventors the capabilities of every piece of technology on Earth just because it exists IRL. This is not a part of his fighting style.



It doesn't matter whether or not he knows about it. I'm sure as a genius he knows about a lot of items of technology or science. That doesn't mean he uses it himself.

There are characters in the Marvel Universe who know about the existence of magic, and are friends with powerful sorcerers who could theoretically teach them magic. That doesn't mean we would say with prep time that "This character could learn magic if they wanted to, so we should give them of all the abilities of Doctor Strange as a possibility."

Ok, this is all cool, and it’s all valid.
Here’s the problem, this only addresses one piece of my argument.
Take everything you explained here away from my argument, and then there’s still the other half of the post which you didn’t seem to have a response to.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Additionally, part of my argument wasn’t that child emperor could teach metal knight how to make these gadgets during prep time, but that it would be insanely out of character and logic defying for him to have not have already known how to do those things from either his own research or from child emperor even before accounting for vs match prep time where that wouldn’t be allowed.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Bump

 

[Damage3245]

Don't bump threads unless 24 hours have passed since the last post.

To address the other parts of your post above:

child emperor's stuff isn't even like futuristic 31st century technology, even irl scientists could probably replicate a fair amount of his kit with their existing knowledge, this is stuff that we would probably think metal knight could do even without the evidence of him scaling above child emperor

Doesn't matter how advanced or not it is. We don't include IRL technology on Metal Knight's profile just because "It exists, and Metal Knight is smart", so we won't include every bit of OPM technology either using the logic that "He's smart so why shouldn't he be able to replicate it?"

I feel as though just because child emperor invented these things, it would be quite unreasonable to say that he couldn't replicate everything chimperor does on a larger scale. He even has the exact statement in the webcomic. Basically everything points to metal knight being able to recreate all these gadgets easy. It gets even more clear when you realize another fact.

The statement from the webcomic doesn't matter due to the separation of manga & webcomic now.

If child emperor was somehow making all these scientific breakthroughs on his own, then why wouldn't he tell metal knight (or why wouldn't metal knight ask) about these things? They speak to eachother constantly, and metal knight seeing technology that he supposedly couldn't make would instantly lead him to do research on it, as seen with him stealing the dark matter ship frame 1 after it touches the ground. Realistically metal knight would already know these things, if not by himself then directly from child emperor anyways.

It doesn't matter that he could have told Metal Knight about them. You're just speculating that this is the case. We need solid evidence. This is exactly the same kind of scenario as "Bang could borrow Atomic Samurai's sword". Yes, it is indeed entirely possible that he could do that, just as Metal Knight could chat to Child Emperor off-screen and get his gadgets from him... but I am 100% against including it on the profiles.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Don't bump threads unless 24 hours have passed since the last post.

Other staff had said otherwise, afaik there’s no actual established rule there

Doesn't matter how advanced or not it is. We don't include IRL technology on Metal Knight's profile just because "It exists, and Metal Knight is smart", so we won't include every bit of OPM technology either using the logic that "He's smart so why shouldn't he be able to replicate it?"

Not just because he’s smart, because he’s an extraordinary genius military technology is his primary expertise, and it would be utterly stupid to say a guy who spends 24/7 on researching it shouldn’t be able to use things that would fit under that category.

The statement from the webcomic doesn't matter due to the separation of manga & webcomic now.

It’s a little extra evidence for author intent regardless of if it’s canon, I never presented it as anything more than that.

It doesn't matter that he could have told Metal Knight about them. You're just speculating that this is the case. We need solid evidence. This is exactly the same kind of scenario as "Bang could borrow Atomic Samurai's sword". Yes, it is indeed entirely possible that he could do that, just as Metal Knight could chat to Child Emperor off-screen and get his gadgets from him... but I am 100% against including it on the profiles.

It’s not could, it’s should. No, I do not need solid evidence for a possibly rating, I just need logic that makes it reasonably likely, and it is reasonably likely that the most intelligent member of the hero association who was child emperor’s mentor (and is still capable of producing stronger weapons) and has billions and billions at his disposal should possibly be able to use the hardly revolutionary technology from chimperor’s gadgets when he spends his life researching how to make better weapons constantly while child emperor is literally teaching a cram school and is more actively participating in hero business on the front lines.

Seriously man

 

[ZillertheBucko]

By the way, metal knight’s statement that the security system is greater than all class A heroes combined
can we add that as justification for scaling above amai mask?

 

[ZillertheBucko]

I just noticed that information analysis isn't on the profile, even though it can detect "dangerous factors" and has "special sensors"
thoughts on this?

 

[Recon1511]

I guess it could be added to his preparation key or his other robots though I see no issue with the Metal Knight unit also having it

 

[ZillertheBucko]

idk, the metal knight unit itself hasn't shown it I think?

 

[ByAsura]

Other staff had said otherwise, afaik there’s no actual established rule there

I think it's more like 13 hours as a guideline. Unless that's been changed.

 

[Recon1511]

Anyway let's go over what has been approved then:

1. Nuclear Bombs
I'd like to start with saying that metal knight should be capable of creating nuclear bombs. This technology is not foreign to the one punch man universe, as seen in garou's nuclear fission attacks. Additionally, metal knight himself seems to know how nuclear bombs work, and has countermeasures against nuclear weapons. FInally, as the extroardinary genius military engineer for the hero association, he logically should be able to replicate nuclear explosives. In the 2nd scan, it even shows that he seemingly has a ship capable of detecting nuclear blast, as well as drones capable of cleaning up their fallout, implying a more direct knowledge of nuclear weapon engineering.
consequentially, I propose that metal knight with preparation should be given a 7-B attack potency via nuclear weapons, and corresponding abilities such as radiation manipulation. Also, metal knight being implied as knowing how to treat radiation poisoning is a neat little detail that I suggest adding to his intelligence justification.
4. Miscellaneous additions and to-do
Metal knight's self destruction
Security system's energy projection
adding some images of security bots
And lastly, separating the preparation key from the base key, which would only have what is currently not listed as preparation on the profile.

This stuff seems to have been approved except Nukes but I think we all agree that Bofoi should have access to Radiation Manipulation with prep time

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Anyway let's go over what has been approved then:
1. Nuclear Bombs
I'd like to start with saying that metal knight should be capable of creating nuclear bombs. This technology is not foreign to the one punch man universe, as seen in garou's nuclear fission attacks. Additionally, metal knight himself seems to know how nuclear bombs work, and has countermeasures against nuclear weapons. FInally, as the extroardinary genius military engineer for the hero association, he logically should be able to replicate nuclear explosives. In the 2nd scan, it even shows that he seemingly has a ship capable of detecting nuclear blast, as well as drones capable of cleaning up their fallout, implying a more direct knowledge of nuclear weapon engineering.
consequentially, I propose that metal knight with preparation should be given a 7-B attack potency via nuclear weapons, and corresponding abilities such as radiation manipulation. Also, metal knight being implied as knowing how to treat radiation poisoning is a neat little detail that I suggest adding to his intelligence justification.
2. Dark Matter thieves' ship
Next, I propose that metal knight (again, with preparation) should have access to the dark matter ship, as seen here (apologies for terrible quality), meaning that with preparation, he should have access to high 7-A weapons.
4. Miscellaneous additions and to-do
Metal knight's self destruction
Security system's energy projection
adding some images of security bots
And lastly, separating the preparation key from the base key, which would only have what is currently not listed as preparation on the profile.

This stuff seems to have been approved except Nukes but I think we all agree that Bofoi should have access to Radiation Manipulation with prep time

The ship’s weapons were completely non functional so that part wasn’t accepted either

 

[Recon1511]

Corrected

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Bump

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Bump
It’s been 13 hours so don’t stomp me

 

[ByAsura]

Damage, what do you think about this, rather than just giving him all the gadgets on his page?

I agree with CE scaling (though he shouldn't have the gadgets themselves, just the powers/AP)

Btw, you don't have to write everything out in the P&A section, you can just put 'should have all of Child Emperor's abilities' and then write a description in brackets of why he should at least be able to replicate the same tech.

 

[Damage3245]

Metal knight's self destruction
Security system's energy projection

These are fine.

I'd like to start with saying that metal knight should be capable of creating nuclear bombs. This technology is not foreign to the one punch man universe, as seen in garou's nuclear fission attacks. Additionally, metal knight himself seems to know how nuclear bombs work, and has countermeasures against nuclear weapons. FInally, as the extroardinary genius military engineer for the hero association, he logically should be able to replicate nuclear explosives. In the 2nd scan, it even shows that he seemingly has a ship capable of detecting nuclear blast, as well as drones capable of cleaning up their fallout, implying a more direct knowledge of nuclear weapon engineering.

I'm not in favor of this. Building a nuclear power plant wouldn't necessarily mean nuclear weapons would be a part of his arsenal.

Btw, you don't have to write everything out in the P&A section, you can just put 'should have all of Child Emperor's abilities' and then write a description in brackets of why he should at least be able to replicate the same tech.

I wouldn't be okay with this for the same reason why I'm not okay with directly listing them in the P&A section.

 

[ByAsura]

He's just advocating for radiation manipulation now, not nukes in MK's arsenal.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

I'm not in favor of this. Building a nuclear power plant wouldn't necessarily mean nuclear weapons would be a part of his arsenal.

The nuclear weapon AP is no longer part of the proposal, but since he built the super nuclear carrier he does have radiation manipulation

I wouldn't be okay with this for the same reason why I'm not okay with directly listing them in the P&A section.

Response to my last counterargument, then?

Other staff had said otherwise, afaik there’s no actual established rule there

Not just because he’s smart, because he’s an extraordinary genius military technology is his primary expertise, and it would be utterly stupid to say a guy who spends 24/7 on researching it shouldn’t be able to use things that would fit under that category.

It’s a little extra evidence for author intent regardless of if it’s canon, I never presented it as anything more than that.

It’s not could, it’s should. No, I do not need solid evidence for a possibly rating, I just need logic that makes it reasonably likely, and it is reasonably likely that the most intelligent member of the hero association who was child emperor’s mentor (and is still capable of producing stronger weapons) and has billions and billions at his disposal should possibly be able to use the hardly revolutionary technology from chimperor’s gadgets when he spends his life researching how to make better weapons constantly while child emperor is literally teaching a cram school and is more actively participating in hero business on the front lines.

Seriously man

 

[Damage3245]

He's just advocating for radiation manipulation now, not nukes in MK's arsenal.

Okay, radiation manipulation should be fine.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Another note I should add, from the wiki’s official standard

Possibly​

Should be used to list a statistic for a character with some basis, but inconclusive due to the justification being vague or non-definitive. The probability of the justification in question for being reliable should be notable, but mild. This term should be used sparingly.

In this case, the justification is non definitive, however due to metal knight’s intelligence, area of expertise, resources, and connection to child emperor, the probability of the justification for being reliable is notably possible, if not favorable to be true.
Vague or non definitive evidence is entirely useable for a possibly rating, however, the evidence here isn’t vague, it’s just not entirely definitive. Possibly ratings should be used sparingly, mainly in the case of there being contradicting evidence. However, while the evidence in favor of metal knight having these abilities with prep isn’t absolute, I think we can both agree that there is no evidence against it being true, so the only real argument one can make is saying that the evidence is so extraordinarily vague and non definitive that there would be almost no shot of it being true. This isn’t the case, as I explained with my reasoning.

 

[Damage3245]

"Connection to Child Emperor" is not any kind of justification here, since we can't use two characters talking to each other or knowing about each other to be proof that they can use each other's gadgets or weapons.

If there was a statement of "The two of them share weapon designs with each other", or "Metal Knight was shown to borrow a piece of equipment from Child Emperor", then that would be some basis, but as it stands the current connection is too thin to support it.

We don't need "evidence against" a character using another character's gadgets. That is seriously insane; you can't be asking me to prove a negative here.

Have you heard about the Argument from Ignorance? "It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false or a proposition is false because it has not yet been proven true."

You're trying to tell me, "Because you haven't offered any proof that Metal Knight can't use Child Emperor's tech, that it is safe to assume he can use Child Emperor's tech."

No, I don't have to prove anything of the sort.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

"Connection to Child Emperor" is not any kind of justification here, since we can't use two characters talking to each other or knowing about each other to be proof that they can use each other's gadgets or weapons.

No? It’s not just because they talk to each other, it’s because child emperor was a former assistant of metal knight’s, and still sees his weapons as stronger. You are omitting major details to make the evidence seem weaker.

If there was a statement of "The two of them share weapon designs with each other", or "Metal Knight was shown to borrow a piece of equipment from Child Emperor", then that would be some basis, but as it stands the current connection is too thin to support it.

this is a flaw in your game plan that has repeatedly led to you and many others screwing up CRTs unfortunately.

You are criticizing each individual evidence as not being enough to warrant the possibly rating, which is true. What makes this so toxic is the fact that the evidence is meant to be taken as a whole rather than individually. Similarly to the majority of cases in a court for example, evidence is meant to stack on top of each other to create a reasonable conclusion.
1. Something meowing doesn’t make it a cat, humans can meow.
2. Something hairy doesn’t make it a cat, monkeys are hairy
3. Something eating cat food doesn’t make it a cat, people can eat cat food.
4. Something having claws doesn’t make it a cat, bears have claws.
5. Something being quadrupedal doesn’t make it a cat, cows walk on 4 legs.
6. Something being a pet doesn’t make it a cat, dogs are pets.

so does this mean that something being hairy, meowing, catfood eating, claw having, 4 legged, pet isn’t a cat? Yeah no, that’s bullshit. Stop taking each of these individually, and maybe you will see that when put together, the evidence stacks on top of each other to warrant a possibly rating, if not a likely rating

We don't need "evidence against" a character using another character's gadgets. That is seriously insane; you can't be asking me to prove a negative here.

This is a complete strawman. I am not saying that you need evidence to prove a negative? I am saying this:
When there IS evidence to support what I am saying, then my argument is more solid than your argument unless you can provide counter evidence, in which case you do have a burden of proof. Burden of proof only applies on me when neither the opposition or the support has produced evidence. Now that I have shown evidence, it is important to note that you have no evidence and your entire argument relies on you downplaying what is in favor of me, because you know you have nothing better to directly contradict me.

Have you heard about the Argument from Ignorance? "It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false or a proposition is false because it has not yet been proven true."

Same applies as I said above. I have evidence, you do not. It’s really that simple.

You're trying to tell me, "Because you haven't offered any proof that Metal Knight can't use Child Emperor's tech, that it is safe to assume he can use Child Emperor's tech."

No, I don't have to prove anything of the sort.

And here we have your final rubbish claim.
What I am trying to tell you is that I have more evidence than you, and you know I have more evidence than you, and your argument relies on being ignorant to the evidence in favor me, instead of producing an actual counterargument.

 

[Damage3245]

None of your so-called evidence has convinced me that it is a good idea to add all these abilities to Metal Knight's profile even as a possibility. This is all I've got time to post tonight.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Well I look forward to your so-called "response" tomorrow, then. I can only hope that you have more to bring to the table than "it's not conclusive enough", since then you'd just be ignoring the definitive wiki standard on possibly ratings, and I'm sure you would want to make a better argument than that.

 

[Damage3245]

Well I look forward to your so-called "response" tomorrow, then. I can only hope that you have more to bring to the table than "it's not conclusive enough", since then you'd just be ignoring the definitive wiki standard on possibly ratings, and I'm sure you would want to make a better argument than that.

I'm not interested in trying to convince you of anything anymore since it's pretty obvious that we have fundamentally different standards of evidence. I've given my evaluation, so if you want to pursue this you will need to get more staff input.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Yeah we know, you pretty infamously oppose 99% of opm upgrades lol (not meant as disrespect, and you helped me with the threat level crt anyways)

 

[Kachon123]

I doubt that Damage goes around disagreeing with random CRTs for the fun of it. There's a reason he's one of the most trusted staff members on the site. Just because he disagrees with you, that doesn't mean he's against the verse. It just means that your arguments weren't convincing enough.

Just ask another staff member for an evaluation.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

bump

I doubt that Damage goes around disagreeing with random CRTs for the fun of it. There's a reason he's one of the most trusted staff members on the site. Just because he disagrees with you, that doesn't mean he's against the verse. It just means that your arguments weren't convincing enough.

Just ask another staff member for an evaluation.

Yes, agreed. I do appreciate damage's work in the community, I do not mean anything genuinely bad when I spoke about him, even if I do disagree with his reasoning here.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Bump

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Bump

 

[ZillertheBucko]

bump

 

[Qawsedf234]

Yeah we know, you pretty infamously oppose 99% of opm upgrades lol

I mean, when some of the 99% include "Boros should scale to Tornado", "Blizzard has High 8-C durability without shields" and "Scaling chains so bad Golden Ball was once City Busting and MHS+" you should be opposed. A lot of upgrades are just poorly founded.

For the thread radiation manipulation is fine. He's showcased working on nuclear technology before.

For Child Emperor, I can get scaling to intelligence, but engineering ability isn't the same in my view. I guess he can get a tabber that indicates he can possibly scale to CE's tech feats. Though there are some issues:

• Summoning: Metal Knight should have this. He can remote summons robots anyways
• Limited Resistance to Mind Manipulation via Willpower (Temporarily broke out of Phoenix's Man's Mental Area) -> This has absolutely nothing to do with technology. It's a character willpower feat
  
• Brave Giant: I'm not sure that we should scale a specialized and extremely high-end backup weapon from CE to Metal Knight without more to it.
  
  
  
  
  

 

[ZillertheBucko]

I mean, when some of the 99% include "Boros should scale to Tornado", "Blizzard has High 8-C durability without shields" and "Scaling chains so bad Golden Ball was once City Busting and MHS+" you should be opposed. A lot of upgrades are just poorly founded.

For the thread radiation manipulation is fine. He's showcased working on nuclear technology before.

For Child Emperor, I can get scaling to intelligence, but engineering ability isn't the same in my view. I guess he can get a tabber that indicates he can possibly scale to CE's tech feats. Though there are some issues:

• Summoning: Metal Knight should have this. He can remote summons robots anyways
• Limited Resistance to Mind Manipulation via Willpower (Temporarily broke out of Phoenix's Man's Mental Area) -> This has absolutely nothing to do with technology. It's a character willpower feat
• Brave Giant: I'm not sure that we should scale a specialized and extremely high-end backup weapon from CE to Metal Knight without more to it.

sorry that mind manipulation resistance thing was a mistake, I thought I had erased all the non tech based abilities out of there. Bofoi himself of course shouldn't scale to anything child emperor has physically done.
anyways, brave giant's AP should at least scale below prep metal knight, due to this statement from chimperor himself. Brave giant's abilities are all pretty much covered by the first key anyways so the abilities don't matter much either.

 

[Qawsedf234]

due to this statement from chimperor himself

The thing is, we already accept that statement.

Attack Potency: Small City level with Missiles (Caused Elder Centipede to scream in pain, which a Fighting Spirit-amped Metal Bat could only replicate by striking his face), higher with Preparation (Due to his large robot army, he was one of the few heroes who Psykos estimated to be capable of contending with Elder Centipede. Possesses weaponry strong enough to damage his own buildings, which took the shockwave of Boros' bombardment. Taught Child Emperor everything he knows, which should mean he is capable of replicating the Brave Giant. The power of the weapons he possesses is beyond that of any lone hero)

The thing is specific aspects of the Brave Giant, but the power of it is something he can replicate.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

The thing is, we already accept that statement.

The thing is specific aspects of the Brave Giant, but the power of it is something he can replicate.

yeah the justification there should be removed, but all the powers brave giant has are things metal knight would already have from chimperor's first key anyways, so brave giant's stuff can be removed entirely from bofoi's profile

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Bump

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Bump

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Bump