New power ranking system

[Antvasima]

After much discussio, we have agreed to start using a more logical ranking system based on that of the Anime Characters Fight wiki.

This system is based on the principle that according to infinity in projective geometry, each higher spatial (or added temporal) dimension is an infinite number of times greater than the preceding number.

According to Brane Cosmology universes consist of 4-dimensional (3 spatial dimensions + 1 temporal dimension) branes in a higher-dimensional structure, with our multiverse containing something on the order of 10^500 of them.

M-Theory defines a sum totality of an entire multiverse with all higher dimensions included as a 10-11-dimensional structure.

Here are the current rankings:

Tier ∞: Beyond Omnipotence

∞: "Multi-Omniverse Level+": Joke characters

Tier 0: Boundless

0: "True Infinity": Beings that are boundlessly above absolutely everything, including level 1-A characters.

Tier 1: Higher-Dimensional:

1-A: Hyperverse level+: Characters that that have no dimensional limitations, and are beyond scientific theories, the realm of metaphysics.

Basically it means that an object is outside of the concepts of time and space. This is something completely formless, abstract, metaphysical and transcendental. The usual scale does not make sense against a beyond dimensional object. Such beings can not be affected by destruction within the dimensions of time and space, or physical matter and energy. This "Space" in which there is no dimension can be the background for any dimensional space. I.e. there exists an infinite number of imaginary dimensions. Within such a dimensionless "space" you can place any dimensional structure (even an infinite-dimensional Hilbert space), because there are no restrictions for dimensions.

1-B: Hyperverse level: 12-dimensional beings and above. These are characters that are beyond complex multiversal scale, but that are not beyond scientific definition.

1-C: Complex Multiverse level: These are 5-11-dimensional characters that exceed the scale of destroying infinite collections of 3-dimensional universes (excluding time), by several degrees of infinity, but that do not exceed the 11-dimensional scale of a complete multiverse, as defined by M-Theory.

Tier 2: Multi-Universal

2-A: Multiverse level+ : Characters who can instantly create and/or destroy 10^500 to an infinite number of universes.

2-B: Multiverse level : Characters who can create and/or destroy 1001 to (10^500)-1 universes.

2-C: Multi-Universe level: Characters who can destroy and/or create up to 1000 universes.

Help to convert characters to the new system would be very appreciated. If you wish, you can check out the rankings at the ACF wiki linked above for help. However, keep in mind that they are highly reliable when it comes to anime rankings, but that according to themselves their other pages are mostly unmonitored, and as such have unreliable rankings.

 

[SeiryuShin]

I'm not getting why YHVH is only 1-C, his weaker avatar in either Metatron or Demiurge would be that level

 

[Roberson100]

I'm not getting why YHVH is only 1-C, his weaker avatar in either Metatron or Demiurge would be that level

I'm thinking the same thing, but they say at least 1-C maybe more powerfull

 

[Antvasima]

I only put him there because I thought that somebody who transcends 5-dimensional multiversal scale would be there. However, if you think that he exceeds 11-dimensional multiversal scale, please feel free to change him to 1-B.

 

[Antvasima]

Wait a minute. I just read that a weak fragment of YHWH could destroy billions of universes in the blink of an eye. Destroying billions of universes is only 2-B. Let's say that the weaker fragment held 0.1% or even 0.000000000000000000000000001% of YHWH's power. That would still only make 100% as 2-B, or at best 2-A, in case the fragment was capable of much more. 12-dimensional beings exceed regular infinite-universes multiversal scale by at least infinity raised to the power of 7.

 

[Antvasima]

I have tried to write better explanations at the power rankings page, but I am thinking of creating separate explanation articles and linking to them instead.

 

[SeiryuShin]

Wait a minute. I just read that a weak fragment of YHWH could destroy billions of universes in the blink of an eye. Destroying billions of universes is only 2-B. Let's say that the weaker fragment held 0.1% or even 0.000000000000000000000000001% of YHWH's power. That would still only make 100% as 2-B, or at best 2-A, in case the fragment was capable of much more. 12-dimensional beings exceed regular infinite-universes multiversal scale by at least infinity raised to the power of 7.

The avatar was serving as a test bed for YHVH and billions was just the amount of worlds continually going through the conception connected to the Amala Multiverse, yet there are other multiverses YHVH's presence is felt that are not connected to said multiverse, such as the Vortex worlds, the higher dimension of YHVH himself which exists outside time and space (time and space are destroyed at the end of True Demon Route in Nocturne yet they still march on to fight YHVH), the Multiverse of Devil Survivor (YHVH fragmented the god Baal into pieces and Devil Survivor 1 is somehow connected to Devil Survivor 2, where Polaris controls "countless parallel worlds" http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/gallery/3cfb958924cd1db8b66986066d7d6b3a.png and he is weaker than YHVH), the worlds or Raidou Kuzunoha, IF (not translated), and lolDemikids which doesn't exist

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Is it ever stated how high a dimension that YHWH occupies?

 

[Roberson100]

Each SMT different has multiverses, so YHVH has multiples verses

http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/Megami_Tensei_Multiverse see in the link, maybe it will help you a little, and YHVH can easily 1-A (i think its tier 0)(also he is a creator, but I'm not with totally sure about it...) Abel has like 10 dimensions but He still is a powerfull, once he can summon a lot of powefull demons (well, he only cant summon such God "devils" as Lucifer but still can summon high tier everywhere and everyone)


"he was defeated by Aleph in SMT2. Then again, it didn't kill him and YHWH cursed Aleph's soul to an infinite cycle of rebirths with ultimately sucky lives.


The question is, if he held back against Aleph or if it was just an avatar of YHWH like a Kagutsuchi (since they look very similar to each other). Also Lucifer thinking that he and Hitoshura can take on YHWH. He might be a true omniwell, good luck with that btw

 

[Roberson100]

he doesnt have a "dimesion limit" btw I dont think he spawmed like 49049-3843-952682340598345834058349085395 verses so.. feel free to change in your see point

 

[SeiryuShin]

YHVH at his strongest is > Abel


YHVH allowed Aleph to defeat him to see if he would choose to do so, then immediately recovered and cursed him for eternity

 

[Roberson100]

yes Siryu, YHVH is the GOD of SMT so, he probably can tier 0 ...

 

[Antvasima]

Being infinitely above multiversal scale is only either low 1-C, if they are simple multiverses, or low 1-B if they are complex 11-dimensional multiverses. Being the God of a certain setting is no guarantee for higher power ratings, much less level 0. If YHWH was anywhere near that powerful, it would have been impossible for the protagonist to affect him. How and where is it stated that Abel has 10 dimensions, and how much more powerful is YHWH compared to him?

 

[SeiryuShin]

YHVH allowed Abel to affect him and was the only one to do so


none of the other protagonists fought anything other than YHVH's avatars, if they fought them at all

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. So how high would you rate YHVH? Is he higher than the current "Low 1-B" rating, which rates him as stronger than an infinite number of full multiverses?

 

[Antvasima]

Tobe 1-A, he would either need to be infinite-dimensional or beyond dimensional space and scientific definition.

 

[ESOverybad]

Why is the Godhead 1-B? The Godhead is the creator of literally everything in TES, and should be tier 0.

 

[Antvasima]

Because as far as I understand it created an infinite number of full 11-dimensional multiversal amaranths. That is the definition of low 1-B. To be even 1-A, it would need to be infinite-dimensional.

 

[ESOverybad]

And beings like Azathoth are then tier 0 how? Godhead is basically Azathoth from the original C'thulu mythos, except it's not being shrouded in an aura of evil, and presumably has a consciousness.

Tier 1-A seems to describe Amaranths pretty well. Beyond Time, abstract, metaphysical, formless, and transcendal, and beyond science entirely. The Godhead is obviously what created infinite amounts of these amaranths. Keep in mind that in TES, even planets are infinite in size, which are surrounded by a greater infinity (Mundus), which is surrounded by an even greater infinity (aetherius), which exists in the mind of amaranth, a being totally beyond time or dimension or any human definition, and infinite amounts of these amaranths are created by the godhead.

Why do you think that amaranths exist in 11 dimensions, or any amount of dimensions for that matter? From what I understand, they are literally beyond dimensions, spacial, or temporal.

 

[Antvasima]

Azathoth is level 0, because Yog-Sothoth is infinite-dimensional, and still part of Azathoth's dream. Where is it stated that Amaranths are infinite-dimensional, or beyond dimensions? I thought that Amaranths were multiverses? If what you say is true/you supply proof, I will adjust the Godhead.

 

[ESOverybad]

Understandable, TESlore is after all very vague, which is why I wouldn't dare count my own word as 100% proof on this subject either. In fact, most of my knowledge on this subject comes from lurking around the subreddit /r/teslore, but let me try to find some more or less concrete evidence.

OK

God outside of all else but his own free consciousness, hallucinating for eternity and falling into love: I AM AND I ARE ALL WE.

The New Man becomes God becomes Amaranth, everlasting hypnogogic. Hallucinations become lucid under His eye and therefore, like all parents of their children, the Amaranth cherishes and adores all that is come from Him.

Source: loveletter from the fifth era, where MK is talking about amaranths, bolded for emphasis. Seems to me like this shows amaranth fitting tier 1-A pretty well. As for the second part, keep in mind that in TES, dreams = reality, and it basically talks about how an entity from the previous universe ascends and creates their own universe. I don't mean the typical 3 spacial 1 time dimension universe here, I mean more like, Boromir from LOTR achieved CHIM, became an amaranth, and dreamed up the lovecraft universe or something.


At its simplest, the state of chim provides an escape from all known laws of the divine worlds and the corruptions of the black sea of Oblivio. It is a return to the first brush of Anu-Padomay, where stasis and change created possibility. Moreso, it the essence needed to hold that 'dawning' together without disaster. One that knows CHIM observes the Tower without fear. Moreso: he resides within.

Source: Vehk's teachings, talking about CHIM here, which seems to say that CHIM basically means that no laws of physics apply to you anymore, so in some ways that's like tier 1-A there already. Keep in mind that Godhead>Amaranth>CHIM. CHIM is basically knowing that all these dimensions and reality, time and space, is a lie, all existing in someone else's mind (amaranth), and knowing this makes you kind of...transcend this, and in a few ways even alter the dream.


The first ones were brothers: Anu and Padomay. They came into the Void, and Time began.

-A children's anuad. This doesn't talk about the multi-dimensional soup of time that exists in the TES universe becoming a linear timeline after akatosh made it so during the dawn era, this literally talks about Anu and Padomay starting time as a concept.

• Sigh* I hate MK. I realize that this is all as vague as anything can possibly be, but that's teslore for you. I hope this is enough, if it's not I could try and dig up some more, but honestly, trying to search and comprehend MK's writings is giving me a headache already. In the end, I'm not the greatest expert on this by any means, but from what I understand, an amaranth is a lot like Yog-Sothoth in Lovecraft, and infinite amounts of Yog-Sothoths are created by the Godhead. The only difference is that whereas Yog-sothoth is depicted as malicious, the known amaranths are not.

 

[SeiryuShin]

Okay. So how high would you rate YHVH? Is he higher than the current "Low 1-B" rating, which rates him as stronger than an infinite number of full multiverses?

Last I checked it said 1-C, he is most certainly above that, 1-B is fine until I find the post I was looking for from Thanato

 

[Antvasima]

I am afraid that this is all much too vague. We need clear statements or definitions. I read a ACF editor refer to 17-dimensional space though. If that is the level of Amaranths, then they are 1-B as well however. In any case, you have to understand that characters that have any number of finite dimensions are still 1-B. It is the widest category in this wiki, and in no way a slight to a character to be placed there. Just because a character is supreme and omnipotent within a setting does not guarantee level 0. For example, Eru Illuvatar may only be 2-C.

 

[Antvasima]

I will fix YHVH.

 

[ESOverybad]

What is ACF? BRB, trying to find more evidence, will edit this post when I find some more, but first, I must ask you to reconsider this one line.

God outside of all else but his own free consciousness

Clearly states IMO that amaranths exist outside of dimensions, and are therefore tier 1-A. In any case, By the way, who referred to amaranths as 17 dimensional? I am 99.99% sure they are dead. wrong. As for clear statements and definitions, you will find none. This is Elder Scrolls we are talking about here, the vaguest effing franchise that exists. everything, even all of the in-game events and major plots in history, like the end of the second era, are subject to plenty of controversy and debate.

Let me try to explain anu and padomay. All dimensions, all reality, everything, I mean everything minus the godhead and other amaranths, is an infinite multi dimensional reality that exists inside an Amaranth's mind, much like if you or I were to imagine a cup of coffee, that cup of coffee would exist inside your or my mind. Destroying space and time to them would be like destroying the mental image of a coffee cup in the mind of a human. Ultimately, it does not harm the human in any way, and said human can just remake that mental image instantly.

If you're not satisfied, I would put something like unknown, presumably tier 0 for godhead and presumably tier 1-A for amaranth.

 

[Antvasima]

ACF=Anime Characters Fight. The most comprehensive and rational power ranking wiki around nowadays imho. We based our new system on their own, after I asked for permission. One of the people I talked to there referred to a diffuse writing about 17-dimensional space. Anyway, I am afraid that we will need some form of concrete evidence for such extreme categories. But I could mention the Godhead as "Unknown but presumed to be 1-B" if you wish? My apologies.

 

[ESOverybad]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETNxpqUqfYQ I watched some of this lorecast, a bunch of people who know a lot more about TESlore, and the only thing I found out is that nobody knows WTF an Amaranth really is, it's all ultimately rumor and conjecture. If someone actually finds some concrete evidence in ACF, I'll be quite surprised.

TBH, I really don't see godhead as merely tier 1-B. Maybe tier 1-A, possibly tier 0, and I'm not saying this as a fanboy, I genuinely think the classification of 1-B is dead wrong. I guess you could say "Unknown, 1-A, possibly 0" for godhead, because after all, it is the elder scrolls version of azathoth (I think). Ultimately, just about everything in Elder Scrolls is subject to controversy, sometimes to the point where one in game source intentionally contradicts another in game source, which is why there are no real "solid" sources.

Edit: There is no such thing as concrete evidence in teslore, as I have said before. There never was, and there never will be, on almost any topic. I have provided some amount of evidence for true omnipotence, or at least tier 1-A, which is far more than any evidence I see for the godhead being limited. Besides, why are you asking for concrete evidence for my argument when the tier 1-B argument is nowhere near concrete?

Can I please see this diffuse 17 dimension writing? Because, I honestly can't even imagine MK even saying anything like "17 dimensional reality" or anything like that. I have shown evidence that the godhead is tier 0. Now, I understand that this evidence is not conclusive, but I must ask this.

What is the evidence that the godhead is 17 dimensional? AFAIK nothing in elder scrolls even remotely mentions such a thing.

Also godhead was tier 1-B on this site back when tier 1-B was true omnipotence and tier 1-A was joke characters.

Edit #2: Pure coincidence, I wasn't even searching for this, but I actually found the 16 dimensional reference.

changed for Kinmune. With the outer colonies separated from Nu-Mundelbright chronoculic sync-net anchors, maintenance of space-time beyond the F-Shores faltered. As the barely-there Hist blink-root-ship armada fired an artillery barrage of 16th-dimensional mathematics at their Jilian enemies

Damn. I didn't think it was even possible that MK would use the word "dimension" in any of his texts, but I was wrong. In any case, this 16th dimensional merely refers to KINMUNE, a man-made robot in the 9th era, which is likely below even aedra and daedra in terms of power for that matter, all the more reason for amaranths and the godhead to be moved up a few tiers.

Admin, I have edited some things in the above post, please review this. Vsbattles wiki has been a good source of information in the past, and I want that to stay this way, and putting amaranths and godhead in tiers 1-B and 1-C is seems way off, and will only harm this site's credibility.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I could place them all as completely unknown if you wish, but as I said above, it takes a lot to be placed in 1-A or 0, and each higher dimension in 1-B is an infinite number of times greater than the last. Our demands for the highest ranking used to be less demanding. See the Omniverse page that I wrote for examples. Also, I checked out the 16-dimensional page, and all it says is that it fired 16-dimensional mathematics, not about the robot itself, and this is a very dubious claim, given that anything on the same level as the Living Tribunal would have easily obliterated a regular 3-dimensional world. [1]

 

[ESOverybad]

I reasearched this topic myself lately, and I don't know how to better explain this, but let me try.

The godhead is everything. "I am and I are all we, we are god" is a phrase used commonly in c0da when referring to CHIM, it basically means that everything is the godhead, and the godhead is schizophrenic which is why multiple personalities exist (these other personalities being every sentient creature in elder scrolls). Other than that, the godhead literally is existence. There is no anything without the godhead, no space, no time, the godhead dreams, and it's dream is everything that ever was and can possibly be. The godhead is anu, who is also dagoth ur, who is also nerevar, is LDB, is talos, is sithis, is fargoth, etc. It wakes up, and (apparently) everything ceases to exist, which is why I compare it to azathoth a lot. MK himself has not said much on this topic, except that the godhead will never wake up because it does not want to, and doing so is not it it's nature.

Amaranths, on the other hand, are like smaller infinities within, which is why I think they fit the 1-A tier well. They are each like a godhead in their own right, but they exist within the original godhead and somehow alter it's dream. It's really complicated.

As for the 16th dimensional mathematics, I just put that out because that's where I thought the 17th dimension or 16th dimension claim from ACF must have come from, so I was trying to disprove the whole "amaranth = 17th dimension thing), but other than that, my guess is that the whole thing about 16 dimensional mathematics means nothing important, and MK must have been really high when he wrote that particular c0da. It talks about the sentient mining spaceship KINMUNE getting caught in crossfire of the hist and jillians, and then going back in time to become queen ayrenn, leader of the thalmor in the second era, so TES doesn't really follow logic.

I have simply laid out the evidence. I understand that this is not conclusive, but please understand, nothing in TES, even things like if the Nerevarine was actually the hero of Morrowind, aren't fully conclusive, which is the only reason I think the godhead might not be truly omnipotent. Elder Scrolls lore is ... unique like that. Putting the godhead in the unknown tier...sure, I guess, since it's nature is not fully known. In fact, some suggest that the godhead is simply dreaming up the elder scrolls reality because it doesn't like it's own, but then again, it's own reality could simply refer to real life, meaning that godhead = bethesda.

TL;DR: it's really complicated. I would put it into as unknown, possibly tier 0

A few more sources: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:CHIM <---says right here that CHIM is an escape from all known physical laws, presumably including dimensions.

http://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/1ye30k/what_would_happen_if_the_godhead_was_awakened/

(yeah I know they are rumor and conjecture, but everything in TES ultimately is. At least there is one comment from MK himself)

Edit: I forgot to mention, the amaranths anu and padomay literally embody existence (1) and non existence (0), perfect stasis and absolute chaos, and where space literally does not exist for padomay, time literally does not exist for anu, and where their "spheres" of influence intersect is where aurbis exists and anything can exist. Does this mean anything for the ranking system? Also, thank you for taking the time to read this. I know I wrote like several pages worth of text already while I was finding out more about TES myself, and I'm sorry for making you read all these vague logic-defying statements.

 

[SpiralMaster]

If the Hist are able to use 16-dimensional maths as an attack, then they obviously are able to understand and manipulate that level of dimensions, and the Hist are below the et'Ada, let alone Amaranths & Godhead. Should also point out this quote here, where the creators of Online acknowledge the C0DA.

What's your opinion of C0DA?

We erect the spine of cordial welcome! Re: C0DA: it's thought-provoking and a hell of a lot of fun, but we don't really touch much on that sort of meta-lore. We're mostly concerned with trying to convey the day-to-day reality of life in Tamriel in the Second Era.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/zenimax-online-writers-reddit-ama

Also the Devil Survivor multiverse is a part of the overall SMT cosmology, but seperate from the main series/Persona.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, being everything doesn't necessarily mean level 0, but if it dreams all of reality into being, it might be. And amaranths being extremely high infinite would still mean level 1-B. Still, I think that it is best to simply list it as an unknown omnipotent for now. I have several more profiles to convert to the ACF system, and when I asked the admins there about TES, they said that those pages had a bad reputation and were unreliable, due to the fans being unable to provide proof for increasing the ratings to the maximum.

 

[SeiryuShin]

Devil survivor 1 directly references YHVH, it isn't separate from the main series, it just happens earlier in the timeline than expected


DeSu 2 is the one with a weird placement (somehow connected to 1 but not the main series)

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Given that you know a lot about the series, is it true that Abel is 9-dimensional?

 

[SeiryuShin]

I'm still looking into that, I would like to ask roberson's reasoning myself, I haven't played DeSu 1 in over a year

 

[ESOverybad]

I am going even deeper into the realm of pure speculation right now, but Amaranths could actually be an allusion to every franchise/dream/imaginary reality that ever exists, since MK did mention that amaranths carry concepts from eachother, so like Anu (bethesda) could have carried the idea of elves from Iluvatar (Tolkien) which means that TOAA, azathoth, and all other authors/supreme beings are just amaranths, and the godhead is actually reality, which would mean the godhead is greater than tier 0, as it represents real life, whereas other omnipotents usually represent the author themselves.

Yeah, I am obliged to agree. The more I think about it the more I think it should be simply listed as unknown, possibly omnipotent as well. Thank you for your time.

 

[Antvasima]

@SeiryuShin All right. Your help would be very appreciated, as the ACF wiki staff apparently couldn't decide where to put the characters themselves. I'm really not trying to downgrade SMT or anything like that. I really liked Persona 4, but I think that we have to have a validcreason for placing Abel, YHVH, Mem Aleph, Demiurge, and the rest on different rankings. So I think that it is best if I revert the recent edits to the new system on those pages until we have thought it through.

@ESO Well, after talking with the ACF staff about TES, they said that dreaming reality into being is no guarantee for being level 0. It was specifically that Azathoth's dream contains an infinite-dimensional space that puts him there. Thank you for being so reasonable.

 

[Jockey-1337]

Good

 

[Catzlaflame]

History

(Ik I shouldn’t necro bump, but this seemed special). Like can y’all believe we actually accepted “Beyond Omnipotence” as an actual tier lol.

 

[Ped2018]

This is amazing.

Times where DT and Ultima didn't exist.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

History

(Ik I shouldn’t necro bump, but this seemed special). Like can y’all believe we actually accepted “Beyond Omnipotence” as an actual tier lol.

justification: joke character