Netflix Castlevania changes

[Abstractions]

Dracula is currently listed at 8-A for this calculatio despite the low-end being what was actually accepted, meaning he should be 8-C instead.

The Morning Star Whip
Trevor Belmont (Castlevania - Netflix) is rated at 9-A with the Belmont Sword for killing the Minotaur and 8-A for harming Dracula with the Morning Star Whip, but here comes the issue:

All monsters, including vampires like Dracula, are vulnerable to the magic imbued into the hunter's tools, it has nothing to do with the physical strength of the weapon, it's just Durability Negation, much like Geralt of Rivia and his silver sword.

Trevor should be "At least 9-B" for his current reasoning and being able to slit the throat of the Minotaur with his sword while using both hands, just remove the other ratings and replace it with the weapons ignoring conventional durability of monsters.

Alucard and the Fireball
To even reverse the momentum of the fireball Alucard needed the full force of Sypha's magic (she needed Trevor's assistance just to keep her footing, suggesting she was really pushing herself) in order to counter Dracula. In fact, he was being throttled most of the fight with his father and only won because Dracula wanted to die and let Alucard kill him.

Alucard also didn't resist the fireball, he never actually got struck by it, as he was just countering its momentum, his Fire Resistance should be removed.

Alucard should be "At least 9-B for being much stronger than Trevor and other vampires, with a "likely 8-C" rating for being able to deal the killing blow to Dracula when the latter was submitting.

Conclusion
Dracula: Gets dropped to 8-C because the pulv. value was what was accepted, not the vaporization value.

Trevor: Remove ratings besides his physical rating, as his weapons ignore durability towards monsters because of their magic.

Alucard: Remove heat resistance, change to "At least 9-B, likely 8-C" because of being superior to other vampires and being compared to Dracula, despite being stomped in their engagement when Dracula realistically didn't want to kill him.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Big oof on the calc.

But, yeah. Fine with the Trevor thing, but Alucard should continue to scale to Vlad. They clashed several times in their fight, and while Vlad was superior they were portrayed as roughly equals. And in the fireball scenario, while he did have help from Sypha, the scene implied that he was doing most of the work, and at the end when he penetrated the ball that was all him, because all Sypha was doing was pushing the ball back, not penetrating it.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Trevor said that salt can kill demons, but that's all, there isn't enough proof to say it bypasses their physical durability, the sword never had any statement of having monster killing magic imbued, 9-A should stay

I agree with Ogbu about Alucard and I agree that they should be 8-C, big mistake using 8-A lol

 

[Abstractions]

Big oof on the calc.

But, yeah. Fine with the Trevor thing, but Alucard should continue to scale to Vlad. They clashed several times in their fight, and while Vlad was superior they were portrayed as roughly equals. And in the fireball scenario, while he did have help from Sypha, the scene implied that he was doing most of the work, and at the end when he penetrated the ball that was all him, because all Sypha was doing was pushing the ball back, not penetrating it.

Sure, but we know from that fight that Dracula thought Sypha was more of a threat than Trevor, and Dracula was casually blocking Alucard's sword with his nails and most physical blows were met with mild discomfort and irritation.

At first, Sypha had only been slowing the fireball, Alucard's assistance only aided in slowing it and only briefly stopped it, but it is only after when Sypha persisted that the fireball was able to change momentum, I'd wager it close to equal on their part.

Alucard wouldn't have been able to penetrate it without Sypha's effort though, her magic was never going to penetrate it as she was using air to blow it back.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Trevor also helped Sypha there

 

[Abstractions]

Trevor said that salt can kill demons, but that's all, there isn't enough proof to say it bypasses their physical durability, the sword never had any statement of having monster killing magic imbued, 9-A should stay

I agree with Ogbu about Alucard and I agree that they should be 8-C, big mistake using 8-A lol

9-A really shouldn't as it required a lot of force out of Trevor to just slit it's throat, he wasn't actually physically contending with it like the rating would imply.

Trevor also helped Sypha there

By giving her something to prop herself against so she didn't lose footing, yes.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Alucard wouldn't have been able to penetrate it without Sypha's effort though, her magic was never going to penetrate it as she was using air to blow it back.

This was kinda my point. While he did have help from Sypha in pushing it back, and it went from being barely slowed down to it being shot back at Vlad when Alucard joined so I'd waged he put in a lot more effort in it then she did, Alucard did the penetrating of the fireball all by himself.

Couple that with the few times they clashed, he should definitely scale, albeit slightly downscale.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

He completely cutted the knee of the Minotaur in one hit seconds after the throat part

Also, worth saying that Minotaur shaking the Belmont Hold might be 9-A aswell

Also also guys, Alucard also took the explosion of Dracula's Fire Ball right ?

 

[Abstractions]

This was kinda my point. While he did have help from Sypha in pushing it back, and it went from being barely slowed down to it being shot back at Vlad when Alucard joined so I'd waged he put in a lot more effort in it then she did, Alucard did the penetrating of the fireball all by himself.

Couple that with the few times they clashed, he should definitely scale, albeit slightly downscale.

The scene shows it stopping when Alucard joins in with Alucard slightly recoiling as the fireball began to push him back slightly, Sypha gives a persistent thrust and the meteor and Alucard are on their way, yes, Alucard had more influence, but not by much.

In the few times they actually engaged, the only meaningful impact Alucard had on Vlad was the stake and catching him off guard with his sword which he didn't even react to.

Alucard should backscale, but it's very clear that they are far from equals and Vlad is still much stronger than him.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

We also have a statement from Godbrand, he said Alucard and Dracula are "almost equal"

 

[Abstractions]

He completely cutted the knee of the Minotaur in one hit seconds after the throat part

Also, worth saying that Minotaur shaking the Belmont Hold might be 9-A aswell

Also also guys, Alucard also took the explosion of Dracula's Fire Ball right ?

The Minotaur feat should be calculated.

He didn't take it and more or less pierced through it which caused it to blow up, but he really wasn't on the receiving end.

We also have a statement from Godbrand, he said Alucard and Dracula are "almost equal"

The statement doesn't supersede the visuals indicating otherwise, Alucard lost once already and would have lost again had Vlad not had the revelation that he wanted to die.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

The Minotaur feat should be calculated.

He didn't take it and more or less pierced through it which caused it to blow up, but he really wasn't on the receiving end.

We also have a statement from Godbrand, he said Alucard and Dracula are "almost equal"

The statement doesn't supersede the visuals indicating otherwise, Alucard lost once already and wouldn't have lost again had Vlad not had the revelation that he wanted to die.

I didn't quite get it

We have a 9-A monster and we have Trevor managing to hurt it and kill it with his Sword, we the throat and the knee part that proves Sword > Minotaur, the scalling is explicit

The magic imbued argument doesn't work here since the sword was never stated to have any magic and it wasn't showed to us any scene with Trevor using salt on it, which is the only thing with a vague statement on being Strong against monsters

I'm neutral about Alucard, but yeah the statement alone isn't enough to scale Alu to Drac, but again, he also took the which Fire Ball explosion, which is 8-C

 

[Theglassman12]

The recalcs seem fine I suppose, but doesn't some of the demons have feats of nuking entire buildings with their breath? I vaguely remember that happening in the first episode

 

[Lightning_XXI]

They have feats of scorching small buildings, yes, but that's probably 9-B, since they are scorching not destroying them

Also guys, why Drac storm feat is only Environmental ?

Also aso, Alucard can dodge the tip of Trevor's whip which is Supersonic

 

[Abstractions]

The Minotaur could easily reside in 9-B as it is an incredibly large tier, we have it collapsing a wooden floor with its weight and it destroying the seal to the entrance, but not much else.

Just because he can cut the Minotaur doesn't mean he completely scales to it, we don't completely scale AoT equipment to Titans for being able to cut a nape.

 

[Ogbunabali]

I mean, don't know what to tell you, maybe it's been a while since you've watched the show, but they clashed multiple times throughout the episode and were portrayed roughly equal, with Vlad being superior but not hugely so.

 

[Theglassman12]

Isn't the nape on the titans like a massive weak spot or something? I don't see how that's comparable to harming a monster normally

 

[Lightning_XXI]

When it was destroying the seal it also shook the Belmont hold, which needs a calc

Collapsing those stairs is also possibly 9-A, we have some calcs from the Witcher that end up being 9-A despite looking 9-B

And we have the size of that thing, its KE should be calced

If you want to calc it before giving a Tier for the Sword, go ahead, but the sword still scales, it didn't just "cut a nape", it completely overpowered its durability in that knee attack in a direct hit, for example. Now, if the feats from this Minotaur and its KE are only 9-B via calc, then it's 9-B. It worths a calc tho

 

[Abstractions]

I mean, don't know what to tell you, maybe it's been a while since you've watched the show, but they clashed multiple times throughout the episode and were portrayed roughly equal, with Vlad being superior but not hugely so.

I am watching at the moment though, it's how I know the sequence of events.

Just clashing doesn't mean they are equals, Alucard shoved Dracula into the wall and he casually smacked him about after that, the one instance where Alucard had any actual leverage was on the bridge when Dracula couldn't react to his speed, but got manhandled again as soon as Dracula got his hands on him.

Alucard doesn't have a nearly as good enough track record in the fights to be considered a rough equal to Dracula, especially when he is trying his hardest and has lost once already.

This doesn't mean he doesn't get his 8-C rating, he just clearly backscales by a bit.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Gotta agree with the Alucard part now

 

[Abstractions]

Isn't the nape on the titans like a massive weak spot or something? I don't see how that's comparable to harming a monster normally

It's a weak point not in the sense that the flesh is more soft in any sort of way, but that is the only place to strike in order to kill it, it doesn't have different durability.

If you want to calc it before giving a Tier for the Sword, go ahead, but the sword still scales, it didn't just "cut a nape", it completely overpowered its durability in that knee attack in a direct hit, for example. Now, if the feats from this Minotaur and its KE are only 9-B via calc, then it's 9-B. It worths a calc tho

I mean, the sword got stuck in its neck, it was clearly hard to cut through, and the need strike wasn't even that deep compared to striking a nape. Of course, I agree that it should be calculated, but scaling him to the minotaur fully would be a bit disingenuous.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Only the sword would scale to it, not Trevor

There is a scene where the minotaur hits Trevor but it wasn't a true direct hit, so I don't think we should scale him

 

[Lightning_XXI]

The same also goes for the Morning Star

Trevor said the the whip is "consagrated to fight monsters", this, by itself, doesn't give us any proof of Durability Negation, it basically tell us that the whip has special powers to fight against monsters with efficiency, but that's it. The Holy Manipulation comes from the fact that it indeed reacts to monsters, remember when Trevor attacked those priests ? The whip still powerful but they don't explode, this only happens against demons, Alucard and Gaibon where the only ones (against the Leather Whip) to resist this affect, yet they still got hurt by it (Gaibon was actually one shoted). Since Alucard scales far higher than 9-Bs in the verse, the whip needs a "higher", because even without the Holy/Explosion part, it still has enough power to hurt him by sheer AP. Same AP was enough to one shot Gaibon

So it reacts to monsters, yes, but this, without any proof of being Durability Negation, is Holy Manipulation, they die because it is a inner explosion (Which by itself should bypass durability) triggered by it

The Morning Star has this properties but on steroids, and against Dracula, even if it has any Durability Negation property, it got resisted because Dracula survived, meaning that in one way or the other, the Whip hurted Dracula by sheer AP

 

[Abstractions]

Dracula and Alucard both resisting the whip can be explained by the fact that their bloodline is potent enough to not be immediately killed by it, Dracula is the OG vampire and stated that he was no ordinary one in response to why he wasn't killed.

It is very specifically durability negation as just having the whip in their mouth is enough to cause spontaneous combustion, there would be nothing to cause this unless it had to negate durability.

Listen, it is shown that monsters are weak to it because they explode when exposed to it, it being Holy Manipulation doesn't mean it isn't durability negation, it means that it is durability negating because of the Holy Magic, monsters and vampires are weak to the magic on the whip, it has nothing to do with AP.

So, it should be written as such:

"The Belmont Whips are imbued with a holy magic that causes monsters, vampires and demons to spontaneously combust, bypassing conventional durability."

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Dracula and Alucard both resisting the whip can be explained by the fact that their bloodline is potent enough to not be immediately killed by it, Dracula is the OG vampire and stated that he was no ordinary one in response to why he wasn't killed.

I literally explained why this also proves 8-C whip, they resisted being haxed but the sheer AP still harmed then, nothing changes

It is very specifically durability Negation as just having the whip in their mouth is enough to cause spontaneous combustion, there would be nothing to cause this unless it had to negate durability.

Because ? Reacting to monsters is Holy Hax at best without any further evidence, but I agree that it has Durability Negation since it triggers a Inner explosion against mosnters, and only three of them resisted being imploded, yet they got killed/hurted, that's my point. The Durability Negating is via implosion, however some beings resisted, weren't imploded, but still were hurt by the whip's AP

Saying that it bypasses their target durability by itself without the implosion thing is forcing with the info we got, there's literally no backup for this, Trevor saying that the whip is special against monsters doesn't automatically mean they are helpless against it, different from Geralt's case when we have the statement that monsters are weak and vulnerable against Silver

Listen, it is shown that monsters are weak to it because they explode when exposed to it, it being Holy Manipulation doesn't mean it isn't durability negation, it means that it is durability negating because of the Holy Magic, monsters and vampires are weak to the magic on the whip, it has nothing to do with AP.

Sure you can have both, and the fact that it implodes the enemies is Durability Negation on its own, but really, just look at your argumentation, you said that both Alucard and Dracula resisted the Holy Bypassing, yeah, true, and yet they got hurt by the whip's AP, both Alucard and Dracula

When something has Durability Negation doesn't mean it doesn't have AP, and this is showed and proved when the negating properties are resisted but the attack still affects the target, this wouldn't be possible without AP, since the Negation was resisted. Look when Dracula gets hit by the Whip, it is a frontal, direct explosion, he didn't imploded, and it hurted him by AP alone and not by the Holy Properties, that were resisted, so 8-C whip then

 

[Abstractions]

Dracula resisted the explosion in that the holy hax on it isn't strong enough to cause him to combust, but it had a clearly was causing him to implode, his body was lighting up from the contact like any other vampire, which was the source of his harm. The whip itself does not cause explosions, so it had to have had a reaction on Dracula for an explosion to even happen.

When something has Durability Negation doesn't mean it doesn't have AP, and this is showed and proved when the negating properties are resisted but the attack still affects the target, this wouldn't be possible without AP, since the Negation was resisted. Look when Dracula gets hit by the Whip, it is a frontal, direct explosion, he didn't imploded, and it hurted him by AP alone and not by the Holy Properties, that were resisted, so 8-C whip the

You are understanding the scene wrong, there was no negation of the properties, Dracula just resisted the hax enough to not be imploded, the biological explosion from his reaction to the whip being exactly what hurt him, he wasn't just taking the force of the whip alone, he still is affected by it. His durability was bypassed, but he resisted it enough for it not to be lethal. The whip didn't need to be 8-C for that scene to occur.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

The explosion hurted him yes, not the Holy Dura Negation, precisely what makes the whip 8-C. You are telling me that the Implosion that affects most of the monsters and the Implosion that hurted Dracula are the same thing, both the results of Durability Negation, this is wrong


See ? The EXplosion starts right in from of him



Right there

But first, you still have to prove that the Whip negates Durability from monsters, which the lore until now doesn't back up, only with this your argumentation about the Whip not having AP really works. So let's see what we have for statements ? This:

"The whip is consagrated, to fight vampires and demons"

This by itself is FAR from being enough to prove that the Whip only hurts via Negation, Trevor is literally explaining why the Whip isn't just a normal one, from this statement we don't have a "they are vulnerable against it", like Geralt and Silver statements from The Witcher, or Vergil in DMC. This statement isn't even enough to warrant Holy Hax, that only comes from the visuals. Besides this one, we have literally nothing

Now, the series shows us that the Whip is strong against humans and against monsters, however in contact with monsters, it triggers a implosion that bypasses durability by nature, by itself. And since we see that only happens with monsters, the best bet is Holy Manipulation (as it reacts to Demonic/Unholy beings) based Explosio, working as a implosion for both the Leather and Morning Star Whip, LITERALLY anything more than this is just assumption

Now, we have three characters that aren't IMploded by the whips: Gaibon, Alucard and Dracula, that's why they have Resistance to Holy Manipulation listed in their profiles. However even after resisting the Holy properties, they got killed or hurted by the whip, why ? Because it has AP, not only Holy Powers

Gaibon is likely 9-B, got one shoted, Alucard is at least 9-B, was hurted, Dracula is 8-C and got hit by a far more powerful whip, survived but injured. This shows us that the Morning Star EXplodes the target even if the opponent manages to resist the Holy Implosion part. If Trevor attacks Sypha, for example, with the Whips, she'll get hurt by it, however it will not IMplode her since she isn't an Unholy being, however the Morning Star still EXplodes her, a explosion strong enough to hurt Dracula

So for conclusion, this happens:

The whips have 9-B and 8-C AP, they can hurt beings that resisted the Holy Manipulation based Implosion via AP alone, so it still strong against normal opponents

Against Evil Beings, its Holy Manipulation based Implosion will work and it bypasses durability since it attacks the enemy from inside

 

[Abstractions]

Now, we have three characters that aren't IMploded by the whips: Gaibon, Alucard and Dracula, that's why they have Resistance to Holy Manipulation listed in their profiles. However even after resisting the Holy properties, they got killed or hurted by the whip, why ? Because it has AP, not only Holy Powers

That's not how it works.

They have resistance to Holy Manipulation because the whip didn't instantly kill them, they still suffered the effects of the holy magic which is what hurt them, not AP from the whip. You are mistaking resistance for immunity, in which there would have been no holy effect, but that clearly is not the case.

The explosion did not start in front of Vlad, but inside his chest, that is literally what it has constantly been shown to do. The one vampire they fought earlier had the head of the whip stuck into his mouth and his face began to bubble and explode because of it.

Literally everything points to it just being hax.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

You are mistaking resistance for immunity

No, I'm not

Being resistant can completely protect you from an attack, it only depends on the level of your resistance, if it's high enough, even if you're not immune, you're going to come out unscathed. The Holy Hax from the whip has two characteristics: React to unholy beings and implode them, in that order. The first happens against Dracula but he's not imploded, the Holy Hax was not enough, only an external explosion is made, powerful enough to leave him on his knees, the third scan that I posted explicitly shows the explosion being external


The one vampire they fought earlier had the head of the whip stuck into his mouth and his face began to bubble and explode because of it.

Basically what happened with 99% of the monsters of the series, dunno why you're using this here, at best it shows that even minimal contact with unholy beings is already enough to nuke them. And again, you still have to prove why the Whip Bypasses Durability with any hit, and not from the implosion triggered via Holy Hax, using that vague statement from Trevor, as I said, isn't enough for our standards, and worth saying that Holy Manipulation on its own doesn't bypass any resistance, it is on the profile precisely because it reacts to unholy monsters. Some verses indeed use this as a weakness for monsters or even duravbility Negation, but that also requires more precise statements, much more than what we have for now, Season 3 might change this, however

 

[ShivaShakti]

Shouldn't Trevor scale to Alucard? Even if you wanna say Whip negs durability, he had a sword fight with Alucard and was able to compete with him in that regard.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

We have a mix of Alucard not being full serious and the fact that he's getting a downgrade, he will be scalling to Trevor

However, we have official stats for the characters tho, and they place Trevor and Alucard at the same power

Me and Abs agreed with that, for now

 

[Abstractions]

My point is that these explosions are only caused by the hax, and the only meaningful damage dealt to him was when he fell to his knees after the explosion, meaning the whip's physical strength was not the cause.

It certainly is far more acceptable when the statement is backed up by every other monster hit by the whip, we base things off the majority showings, not the minority.

Suggesting the whip be 8-C would mean it would paste everyone or everything else in verse, which would defeat the purpose of Trevor even mentioning it's stronger against monsters.

Shouldn't Trevor scale to Alucard? Even if you wanna say Whip negs durability, he had a sword fight with Alucard and was able to compete with him in that regard.

Alucard was tossing Trevor around and wasn't aiming to kill him, he also didn't even react to Trevor's dirty tactics.

There's definitely a large gap between the two, even when considering that while Alucard's all out assault somewhat irritated Dracula, Trevor's punches did absolutely nothing.

So no, they wouldn't scale.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Is that really so important tho ? lol

Anyway, we need more opinion about this, we are not getting anywhere at this rate lol

 

[Abstractions]

Bump.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Anything left to discuss here ?

 

[Abstractions]

Trevor's whip being durability negation via Holy Manip. seems to be the only remaining thing to talk about.

I'd like more opinions on the issue, as we are going back and forth on it.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

We don't need anymore, the Whip has a 8-C feat on its own

Now that Trevor is 9-A, maybe a "At least 9-A, likely 8-C" for Alucard fits better ?

 

[Abstractions]

We don't need anymore, the Whip has a 8-C feat on its own

Well, harming Dracula doesn't count for obvious reasons, but lets look at further context to that feat.

One, the monster was charging up a fireball, we have no idea what is from the whip and what is from the monster itself. Secondly, we know the whip causes the monsters that react to it to explode, vampires that explode from reaction have shown to lethally harm those close-by.

My point is, the monster is fairly large, of course its reaction itself would also be very massive in turn, it also is contradicted by the Demon Priest being able to deflect the whip itself and not be gibbed by being hit by its hilt.

Everything just points to durability negation, the explosion is a result of a reaction to the magics attached to the whip.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Again this, jesus christ

Show me statements or proof that the whip only has Durability Negation and nop AP, characters talking about this, guides talking about this, scans talking about this, anything, because raw Durability Negation isn't something that easy to have, specially when we see super casual whip strikes working on humans too, on a much stronger degree than a normal one, it just don't implode them because they are not supernatural, or when we see beings like Gaibon that dies (One shoted, btw) without being imploded

What we see is the Whip reacting to them and imploding them (Holy Manipulation based Explosion, since it is from inside it bypasses durability to an extent), and even when it didn't, it still hurts Alucard and Dracula who no sells 8-C attacks

 

[Aetheric Pariah]

I agree with dante here