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Nasuverse’s Continuity

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So I believe we never dwell into how far down the rabbit hole is when it comes to TM verses like Tsukihime, KnK, Fate, and so on.

So what is the current stance on the continuity?
 
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Continuity as in the order of it, or what's all canon to the multiverse?
Technically everything, but I do remember the statement from Nasu regarding Fate Extra Last Encore: “
“Through "Last Encore", I tried to make it something that feels different depending on whether you know the premise.

For the people who will watch this anime as their first "EXTRA" experience, I want this to be the starting point where they become interested in the original game and the comics (5 volumes in total, on sale from Kadokawa!)

For the people familiar with the original game, I want them to go "What...?" at the differences.

So people can have fun playing EXTRA after watching the anime, and people can have fun watching the anime after playing the game.

I hope we made something that can be enjoyed both ways.” by Kinoko Nasu

Meaning Fate Extra and Fate Extra CCC is so different from that of Fate Extra Last Encore according to Nasu’s official blog it seems as the information came from Beast Lair. http://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthrea...keuchi-blog)?p=2800079&viewfull=1#post2800079

Which I believe Beast Lair to being an incredible trustworthy source due to one of their translators being there.”


And yes, it is from my own outdated cosmology blog.
 
Well the only (likely) uncanon thing is Canaan, as that's one of the few Nasu works that isn't a type moon property, and I think DDD is also not a type moon property

With the Last Encore thing, yeah it's not in direct continuity with the rest of Extra, in fact, none of Extra is in direct continuity with the other parts. CCC is a parallel world of the normal Extra, where Hakuno is yoinked by BB in stage 7 or smth, and has a different servant (Berserker) to start, Foxtail is Foxtail, Extella happens in a world where Hakuno picked Nero, and also the entire ending of Extra worked differently, etc.

There's not any timeline that actually includes all of the different entries in itself because some of them happen at the same point as others and are impossible to have coexist in the same world, or things like Fate stuff not happening in Tsuki worlds. Different amounts of them happen in different universes so it's not easy to establish an order for everything.
 
So basically you want to make a new, fresh cosmology blog and created this thread for a question about the current continuity? @HammerStrikes219
Actually I believe Crimson was in the works of doing a new cosmology blog, but have to put it on hold due to irl priority and other things and as such, you are partially correct, specifically the part of the continuity I am more concerned about.
 
Well the only (likely) uncanon thing is Canaan, as that's one of the few Nasu works that isn't a type moon property, and I think DDD is also not a type moon property

With the Last Encore thing, yeah it's not in direct continuity with the rest of Extra, in fact, none of Extra is in direct continuity with the other parts. CCC is a parallel world of the normal Extra, where Hakuno is yoinked by BB in stage 7 or smth, and has a different servant (Berserker) to start, Foxtail is Foxtail, Extella happens in a world where Hakuno picked Nero, and also the entire ending of Extra worked differently, etc.

There's not any timeline that actually includes all of the different entries in itself because some of them happen at the same point as others and are impossible to have coexist in the same world, or things like Fate stuff not happening in Tsuki worlds. Different amounts of them happen in different universes so it's not easy to establish an order for everything.
So basically, we just make it a sorta composite verse? If so, then we gonna need a big CRT for this one.
 
Yes, I believe the wiki currently treats all things in Nasuverse as canon and cross scales between works.
 
Ah, if that so then i don't see any problem on it

Plus we're planning to publishing an another big Nasuverse CRT around next month, but its not about the one you concerned, Hammer lel
 
Ah, if that so then i don't see any problem on it

Plus we're planning to publishing an another big Nasuverse CRT around next month, but its not about the one you concerned, Hammer lel
I see. Mind telling me what this next Nasuverse CRT is about, I will have to follow it as I go.
 
So basically, we just make it a sorta composite verse? If so, then we gonna need a big CRT for this one.
Correct, almost everything connects to eachother in some way, aside from the 2 ones I mentioned which aren't Type Moon properties, so they usually scale to the same stuff, and all have the same mechanics

I.e Arc scaling above servants and Amatetasu despite being from Tsuki, Types existing in a bunch of Fate and Tsukihime works via ORT despite being from Notes, Aoko and Touko appearing in FSN after Mahoyo and either Tsuki or KnK, DAA statements of them scaling to servants and people scaling to those, Servants scaling between Fate works and people scaling to those, the structure of the world being described the same etc.
 
Both

Well i think the Lostbelt revision would just adding more of abilities and resistances

Also we're gonna get 20+ newest Servants profile if Crimson isn't a lazy bastard
In that case, I probably need to plan my own CRT regarding the continuity of Nasuverse. Do you guys have a Discord server in regards to Nasuverse’s stuff? I eventually am planning to do it in order to probably make it not a complete composite verse as there is some WOG statements I managed to find.
 
Correct, almost everything connects to eachother in some way, aside from the 2 ones I mentioned which aren't Type Moon properties, so they usually scale to the same stuff, and all have the same mechanics

I.e Arc scaling above servants and Amatetasu despite being from Tsuki, Types existing in a bunch of Fate and Tsukihime works via ORT despite being from Notes, Aoko and Touko appearing in FSN after Mahoyo and either Tsuki or KnK, DAA statements of them scaling to servants and people scaling to those, Servants scaling between Fate works and people scaling to those, the structure of the world being described the same etc.
Hmmm, I see although it doesn’t seem to address the differences between the actual works and only address the similarities it seems which I believe is why the continuity is just a mess in the state it is sadly in or being treated that way anyway.
 
What CRT? There doesn't need to be any, Nasu's cosmology works in a "infinite parallel worlds" structure, which are confirmed to exist in the same reality. Lord El Melloi's Case Files and The Adventures of Lord El Melloi both connect Fate works and other Nasu works like Tsukihime and Kara no Kyoukai because they exist in the same setting, just in different parallel worlds.
 
Hmmm, I see although it doesn’t seem to address the differences between the actual works and only address the similarities it seems which I believe is why the continuity is just a mess in the state it is sadly in or being treated that way anyway.


I mean, the differences are addressed

In universe and wog actually. That's the existence of parallel and adjacent worlds. Worlds that share a bunch of similarities but have some differences are merely different possibilities branching off the same universe, forming that part of the multiverse, like the FSN routes, FSN and Zero being close parallels rather than sequential due to the differences, etc

And all the Fate worlds are part of a part of the multiverse where human order reigns supreme, as opposed to the KnK worlds where its [REDACTED] that reigns supreme.
 
I mean, the differences are addressed

In universe and wog actually. That's the existence of parallel and adjacent worlds. Worlds that share a bunch of similarities but have some differences are merely different possibilities branching off the same universe, forming that part of the multiverse, like the FSN routes, FSN and Zero being close parallels rather than sequential due to the differences, etc

And all the Fate worlds are part of a part of the multiverse where human order reigns supreme, as opposed to the KnK worlds where its [REDACTED] that reigns supreme.
Oh yeah, in my cosmology blog, there is the fact about the pruning mechanics to cull the number of parallel worlds anyway.



What CRT? There doesn't need to be any, Nasu's cosmology works in a "infinite parallel worlds" structure, which are confirmed to exist in the same reality. Lord El Melloi's Case Files and The Adventures of Lord El Melloi both connect Fate works and other Nasu works like Tsukihime and Kara no Kyoukai because they exist in the same setting, just in different parallel worlds.”

I believe the infinite parallel worlds structure you referring to is the infinite parallel worlds statements from the F/SN novel correct? If so, there is also the pruning mechanics that comes in later Fate works, specifically the Fate Extra series.


Quantum Time-lock [Existence]

Spiritron Record Anchoring Bands (霊子記録固定帯, Reishi Kiroku Kotei-tai).

An event that manifests at regular intervals for the purpose of anchoring the Average Expression (平均値, heikin-chi?, lit. "Average Values") of phenomena as absolutes.

This universe permits the birth of unlimited possibilities, numerous adjacent worlds, and divergent developments of history.

However, as the unrestricted propagation of this process would exhaust the lifespan of the universe, at set intervals, those extraneous worlds routes ( 世界ルート, sekairu-to?) removed of the category of "routes characterized by survivability and stability" are culled (伐採, basai, lit. "cull" / "prune"), so as to prevent the needless expenditure of energy.

The Mooncell has concluded that the means by which our Universe of Awareness (認識宇宙) -- fundamentally unstable by nature -- is stabilized across the Past, Present, and Future lie in the execution of "culling" and the formation of "records" (記録帯, Kiroku-tai, lit. "Recording Bands").

If left alone, the Great Tree Known as Time (時間という大樹, Jikan to Iu Daiju?) will branch without restriction, and the behavior of culling serves to remove those divergences that are unnecessary, leaving only the "trunk" to advance. This is the simplest image by which to comprehend the phenomena.

Any history that has been secured as an anchoring band (固定帯, kotei-tai) become as an existence impervious to interference from the past and future; events or phenomena that exist within the purview of the anchoring band are utterly immovable.

Hypothetically, if one were to move to a chronological position in the past of an "anchoring band" to the purpose of modifying history, as time progresses unto the position of the "anchoring band," history would be forcibly corrected (強引に復元, gouin ni fukugen?, lit. "forcibly restored") to its state of record.

In those universes wherein Quantum Time-Locks are imposed, the "outcomes" that have been registered to anchoring bands are categorically unchangeable. Thus, that which would be open for time travelers to modify would be invariably restricted to "process."

For example, let us presume that the "outcome" that "Britain was destroyed" is secured as a matter of record.”

Although this is from Fate Extella.
 
Yes, the pruning mechanics exist, even in FGO. However, even in the series it is mentioned, infinite possibilities exist, and the number of parallel worlds that exist are still practicaly unlimited.

I also don't know why you bring this up, as it doesn't really have anything to do with canon. With or without that mechanic, all the worlds in the Nasuverse still exist, that's kind of an objective fact.
 
Oh yeah, in my cosmology blog, there is the fact about the pruning mechanics to cull the number of parallel worlds anyway.
This is a thing yeah, but this wouldn't really stop the number of them from being infinite, because based on the FSN, FGO, etc statements, there's an infinite amount. So culling any number from a starting point of infinity, will merely put you in infinity still, this is also ignoring the fact that more are constantly made, and ones designated for deletion are actually held for 100 years before being erased. The interpretation of an infinite amount being impossible is a flawed interpration, as the statement doesn't actually mention infinite ones being impossible, but rather that allowing them to endlessly grow unchecked is what's impossible. The growth, not the value.



The pruning also doesn't really affect the coexistence of these worlds as they're either similar enough to eachother in that they're following the normal foundation of things and wouldn't be pruned (i.e have humans and isn't filled with animal people instead, or a single god erasing and remaking the multiverse constantly), or are similar in foundation in that they have the Tsukihime world foundation

Any world that ends normally, i.e Overcount (the Notes ending and state of the Extra world) is also on the right track and wouldn't be pruned, as we know from Zepia that all possible worlds lead to that point (the destruction of humanity and earth)
 
This is a thing yeah, but this wouldn't really stop the number of them from being infinite, because based on the FSN, FGO, etc statements, there's an infinite amount. So culling any number from a starting point of infinity, will merely put you in infinity still, this is also ignoring the fact that more are constantly made, and ones designated for deletion are actually held for 100 years before being erased.

The pruning also doesn't really affect the coexistence of these worlds as they're either similar enough to eachother in that they're following the normal foundation of things and wouldn't be pruned (i.e have humans and isn't filled with animal people instead, or a single god erasing and remaking the multiverse constantly), or are similar in foundation in that they have the Tsukihime world foundation

Any world that ends normally, i.e Overcount (the Notes ending and state of the Extra world) is also on the right track and wouldn't be pruned, as we know from Zepia that all possible worlds lead to that point (the destruction of humanity and earth)
Hmm are you sure? I thought that Fate Extella specifically mentioned something about many what ifs or something as you guys do need to bring up the respective scans from the respective series in question or something to refresh my memories of this especially with cross scaling and all the stuff.

Yes, the pruning mechanics exist, even in FGO. However, even in the series it is mentioned, infinite possibilities exist, and the number of parallel worlds that exist are still practicaly unlimited.

I also don't know why you bring this up, as it doesn't really have anything to do with canon. With or without that mechanic, all the worlds in the Nasuverse still exist, that's kind of an objective fact.
I mean it is not a set in stone thing ngl, but that is my opinion on the matter as I probably do need some deeper digging into it as it is now.
 
Hmm are you sure? I thought that Fate Extella specifically mentioned something about many what ifs or something as you guys do need to bring up the respective scans from the respective series in question or something to refresh my memories of this especially with cross scaling and all the stuff.
Yes, the Altera route prologue (what is always brought up for this), specifically mentions the creation of more and not the number.

"If parallel worlds continued to increase in this manner, their number would eventually exceed the capacity of this dimension. Parallel worlds must exist, but in a manageable quantity. By my own rough calculations, and judging by the civilization of Earth alone, this solar system would collapse within 100 years if parallel worlds expanded without limits."

This doesn't actually give a limit on the number, aside from "a manageable amount" being what's sustainable. The starting amount obviously would be included in this "manageable amount", and considering multiple things say infinite (and the prologue makes it pretty clear that the starting number is not 1 or something weird like that), infinite would be considered the the safest bet for the manageable starting point here. Aside from "manageable amount", the rest of the quote is only referring to the endless proliferation of worlds which is added to the starting value, and saying that's what would cause the collapse of the solar system, rather than a specific amount, or infinite being what is too much.

Even with a very hyper specific flawed intepreation of this quote that results in the classic "infinite universes is completely impossible because the solar system blows up" crowd, this would actually be inconsistent anyway due to being a single mention, as opposed to the multiple of infinite both before and after this statement.

I mean it is not a set in stone thing ngl, but that is my opinion on the matter as I probably do need some deeper digging into it as it is now.
Idk it seems pretty set in stone to me considering it's mentioned multiple times in and out of universe, it'd be a bit hard for it to not be true.
 
Yes, the Altera route prologue (what is always brought up for this), specifically mentions the creation of more and not the number.

"If parallel worlds continued to increase in this manner, their number would eventually exceed the capacity of this dimension. Parallel worlds must exist, but in a manageable quantity. By my own rough calculations, and judging by the civilization of Earth alone, this solar system would collapse within 100 years if parallel worlds expanded without limits."

This doesn't actually give a limit on the number, aside from "a manageable amount" being what's sustainable. The starting amount obviously would be included in this "manageable amount", and considering multiple things say infinite (and the prologue makes it pretty clear that the starting number is not 1 or something weird like that), infinite would be considered the the safest bet for the manageable starting point here. Aside from "manageable amount", the rest of the quote is only referring to the endless proliferation of worlds which is added to the starting value, and saying that's what would cause the collapse of the solar system, rather than a specific amount, or infinite being what is too much.

Even with a very hyper specific flawed intepreation of this quote that results in the classic "infinite universes is completely impossible because the solar system blows up" crowd, this would actually be inconsistent anyway due to being a single mention, as opposed to the multiple of infinite both before and after this statement.


Idk it seems pretty set in stone to me considering it's mentioned multiple times in and out of universe, it'd be a bit hard for it to not be true.
https://vsbattles.com/threads/2-a-mooncell-question.115592/#post-4026946

Yeah…. that indeed put it to doubt ngl and yes, I did find it so I not sure about the infinite part myself so I have some doubts about it.

Also it is not like Nasu put much further input regarding the connections to his works aside from the Tsukihime to Fate works correct?

What a pain in the neck that is for sure.
 
Oh right, there is also the multiple writers part too…

I need to sleep so I will come back to this later to get a more proper thought on the matter.
 
https://vsbattles.com/threads/2-a-mooncell-question.115592/#post-4026946

Yeah…. that indeed put it to doubt ngl and yes, I did find it so I not sure about the infinite part myself so I have some doubts about it.
That's the exact interpretation I was talking about yes. It stems from a very specific way of taking that quote, that isn't really correct, and is inconsistent if it was correct. The Japanese version actually makes this intepreation have even less ground to stand on, as it never mentions a manageable amount being needed, instead it only mentions the endless proliferation, which means that the argument of any amount being too high has no ground to stand on, as the only limiting factor mentioned in Japanese is the growth itself.

The more likely interpretation of the japanese text is that the growth is what consumes energy, not sustaining any amount. And thus any arbitrary starting point is fine so long as it doesn't grow unchecked, and the starting point would again be infinite.

Even assuming this interpretation I just gave is false, the Japanese one again does little to disprove an infinite amount existing, as it doesn't mention the amount a single time, as that was added by the localization team and is not found there originally.
Also it is not like Nasu put much further input regarding the connections to his works aside from the Tsukihime to Fate works correct?

What a pain in the neck that is for sure.
Nah, he's given input regarding KnK to Tsukihime as well. He's also given input regarding different parts of Fate to eachother, Tsukihime to Extra, Extra to Tsuki no Sango, Notes to some other stuff iirc, etc.

Then the games or series themselves give further input to connections like KnK to Tsukihime, KnK to Fate, Tsuki to Fate, Notes to everything, other parts of Fate to eachother, and stuff like that.
 
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That's the exact interpretation I was talking about yes. It stems from a very specific way of taking that quote, that isn't really correct, and is inconsistent if it was correct.

Nah, he's given input regarding KnK to Tsukihime as well. He's also given input regarding different parts of Fate to eachother, Tsukihime to Extra, Extra to Tsuki no Sango, Notes to some other stuff iirc, etc.

Then the games or series themselves give further input to connections like KnK to Tsukihime, KnK to Fate, Tsuki to Fate, Notes to everything, other parts of Fate to eachother, and stuff like that.
Again, we do need hard proof of statements and such regarding the connections between the works and stuff like in the case of Tsukihime and Fate. Also I not too sure about inputs from Nasu regarding works that isn’t written by him, but I will see how that goes.

I don’t usually discourage differing interpretations especially if the said interpretations is actually backed up by evidence and even backed up by scans relating to the cosmology.

The OP in that thread after all did put forward scans that seems to back up his/her claims to make it interesting and therefore I can not ignore it just because it is supposedly incorrect.

Also I do wish we have more Nasuverse experts on the matters of continuity and cosmology to offer their opinion too.
 
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Again, we do need hard proof of statements and such regarding the connections between the works and stuff.
I mean, we do have those though, and we have direct showings of them in the franchise. Look at Extra having Arc and Shiki, Melty Blood having Shiki, all the parts that have Aoko and Touko post certain events, FGO's KnK event, ORT in the different parts of the series, etc. This is stuff that doesn't really need me to provide scans as you can sorta just look at them and the explanations as to why they occur to figure things out.

Aside from that there's a few I do have on hand

KnK and Tsukihime being parallel worlds to eachother
Other than that... oh, right, there's Aoko's age. If Rakkyo and Tsukihime were the same world then Aoko would only be a little bit older than Tohno Shiki. The Aoko in Rakkyo has not yet gained the title of "Miss Blue", and is still training in Misaki Town.
It's probably best to think of it as subtly shifted parallel worlds.
Tsukihme and Mahou being the same world, and parallel ones to FGO (a single choice determines if it shifts to an FGO world)
"Clock Tower 2015 is in the world of Tsukihime and Mahou Tsukai no Yoru. In that world, a certain someone XX in order to protect the present, and so the events of FGO don't happen. No one knew about his achievements but he protected both the past and the future."
FSN routes being parallel unless Zelretch is watching (and Nasu not liking the results of Zelretch watching)
Q: Are the three routes of "Fate/stay night" parallel worlds existing at the same time? I was curious since I was how it would look to Zelretch.

A:
They're parallel... sort of. But if Zelretch was observing, it'd become true, and my feelings on the matter is that I'd rather two routes disappear if one was true.
If all of these became possible at the same time, the other routes would become meaningless.
Tsuki no Sango being a Land of Steel (Overcount 1999) world, and one where Tsukihime's events didn't happen
Q: The concept of Tsuki no Sango is the "degenerated what if scenario" of Tsukihime 3000, but is Tsuki no Sango a potential future of Tsukihime universe?

A:
Tsuki no Sango is a world where the event of Tsukihime did not occur. Different from EXTRA's "what if" scenario, the one of Tsuki no Sango is "a degenerated world where magecraft yet lingers". Tsuki no Sango has a Land of Steel type of world
The connection between FSN, Zero, Apoc, Case Files, and SF, with them all being the same aside from small differences, and even usually outright being the same up to X point.

Outright confirming that the world rules are the same across works
Q: Speaking of Tohno, did you ever think of doing a crossover with 「Kara no Kyoukai」?
Nasu: No, even though the world rules (special powers/magic) are the same. They're both just small happenings in a single world. That's why the first main character I made is Aoko-san.

I don’t usually discourage differing interpretations especially if the said interpretations is actually backed up by evidence and even backed up by scans relating to the cosmology.

The OP in that thread after all did put forward scans that seems to back up his/her claims to make it interesting and therefore I can not ignore it just because it is supposedly incorrect.

Also I do wish we have more Nasuverse experts on the matters of continuity and cosmology to offer their opinion too.
I mean the thing is that I quite literally used the main scan of the OP which was the crux of his argument to explain why the interpration is incorrect, as it's not actually substantiated by the Altera route scan (I also edited to talk about JP a bit since someone on that thread brought it up.)

There's also this one to prove infinite if you wanted scans, along with the Zelretch one, and that's merely all the things off the top of my head and that I had on hand.

As for other Nasu experts, Crimson has abandoned me here to argue alone while he slacks off, and I don't think anyone else from the revision group is coming so uhh, I guess you'll be waiting for some others
 
I mean, we do have those though, and we have direct showings of them in the franchise. Look at Extra having Arc and Shiki, Melty Blood having Shiki, all the parts that have Aoko and Touko post certain events, FGO's KnK event, ORT in the different parts of the series, etc. This is stuff that doesn't really need me to provide scans as you can sorta just look at them and the explanations as to why they occur to figure things out.

Aside from that there's a few I do have on hand

KnK and Tsukihime being parallel worlds to eachother

Tsukihme and Mahou being the same world, and parallel ones to FGO (a single choice determines if it shifts to an FGO world)

FSN routes being parallel unless Zelretch is watching (and Nasu not liking the results of Zelretch watching)

Tsuki no Sango being a Land of Steel (Overcount 1999) world, and one where Tsukihime's events didn't happen

The connection between FSN, Zero, Apoc, Case Files, and SF, with them all being the same aside from small differences, and even usually outright being the same up to X point.

Outright confirming that the world rules are the same across works



I mean the thing is that I quite literally used the main scan of the OP which was the crux of his argument to explain why the interpration is incorrect, as it's not actually substantiated by the Altera route scan (I also edited to talk about JP a bit since someone on that thread brought it up.)

There's also this one to prove infinite if you wanted scans, along with the Zelretch one, and that's merely all the things off the top of my head and that I had on hand.

As for other Nasu experts, Crimson has abandoned me here to argue alone while he slacks off, and I don't think anyone else from the revision group is coming so uhh, I guess you'll be waiting for some others
Interesting enough, I do ponder at times if the infinite possibilities mean not been treated as strictly 2A or something as far as it goes, but that is my mind going at work as infinite possibilities of a single world or infinite possibilities being referred to as actual infinite number of parallel worlds, but since this mentioned infinite possibilities of human history, my mind do have to wonder as in Part 2, Da Vinci did mention the pruning mechanics later as I wonder if that have to make it a finite multiverse, but I digress on the matter as the scans you using is from Fate Grand Order, but I won’t lie. I do find it odd to for it being retroactively applied to Extella. Also speaking of the Lostbelts, I do recall that they were supported by the Trees last I checked and as such can been collapsed unless there are very specific circumstances that managed to prevent the collapsing part.

Edit: For the rest, I will look into later and give a more proper thought about it.
 
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Interesting enough, I do ponder at times if the infinite possibilities mean not been treated as strictly 2A or something as far as it goes, but that is my mind going at work as infinite possibilities of a single world or infinite possibilities being referred, but since this mentioned infinite possibilities of human history, my mind do have to wonder as in Part 2, Da Vinci did mention the pruning mechanics later as I wonder if that have to make it a finite multiverse, but I digress on the matter as the scans you using is from Fate Grand Order, but I won’t lie. I do find it odd to for it being retroactively applied to Extella.
it's not really that it retroactively applies to Extella, as there were things pre Extella too, like the aforementioned Zelretch thing. Its just further support for already established things that happens to come after Extella and can help clarify the doubt as to the amount of universes. Pruning is mentioned in part 2 again yeah, iirc it explains why lostbelts are the way they are (all weird compared to the normal universe, and well, culled)
Also speaking of the Lostbelts, I do recall that they were supported by the Trees last I checked and as such can been collapsed unless there are very specific circumstances that managed to prevent the collapsing part.

Edit: For the rest, I will look into later and give a more proper thought about it.
Yes, lostbelts are worlds that were culled, however the power of the Alien God through the fantasy trees is able to pin those timelines back down into reality, and they're able to persist so long as the trees are there to keep them locked down, and would eventually take over everything else if given enough time, at which point they wouldn't need the tree I believe.
 
it's not really that it retroactively applies to Extella, as there were things pre Extella too, like the aforementioned Zelretch thing. Its just further support for already established things that happens to come after Extella and can help clarify the doubt as to the amount of universes. Pruning is mentioned in part 2 again yeah, iirc it explains why lostbelts are the way they are (all weird compared to the normal universe, and well, culled)

Yes, lostbelts are worlds that were culled, however the power of the Alien God through the fantasy trees is able to pin those timelines back down into reality, and they're able to persist so long as the trees are there to keep them locked down, and would eventually take over everything else if given enough time, at which point they wouldn't need the tree I believe.
In regards to the number of universes… The doubt does persist though.

Even more so when it comes to interpretations of the same information to begin with, but in any case, I probably need to address the infinite possibilities part and form opinions on it anyway.
 
what's really going on here, is it about the infinite number of parallel worlds or the nasuverse canonity?

after all, the infinite parallel world has been stated so many times and so consistently.
 
what's really going on here, is it about the infinite number of parallel worlds or the nasuverse canonity?

after all, the infinite parallel world has been stated so many times and so consistently.
With the exception of Extella and possibly a few others that mentioned it as the infinite number part is a side note compared to canonicity part of the Nasuverse.
 
Aisde from the original visual novel explicitly stating that Zelretch travels through the infinite parallel worlds, and that his Jewel Sword draws energy from an infinite number of parallel worlds.

FGO's Prisma Code event explicitly states that there are infinite parallel worlds:
First Lady
Infinite parallel worlds host infinite crises. That's where you'll find real enemies who need to be defeated.

Kiara states that there are 'innumerable versions' of her in 'numberless universes':
Sessyoin Kiara
Yes. Zepar's power taught me about many worlds so different from our own.
Ah... “Parallel worlds” is it? Yes... “Chronicle Theoretical Phenomenon” and the like? Complex concepts.
That is how I came to know about another version of me, one among the countless number to exist.
And in her world, distant in time and space, the moon itself was a Holy Grail called the Mooncell Automaton.
In a deep, dark space known as the Far Side of the Moon, that version of me was able to claim the Grail.
Among the innumerable versions of me in numberless universes, she was the most...unique. Zepar was very, very pleased with her. So much so that he linked us together.
I...I who did nothing but suffer as Seraphix fell into a frenzy...
...and into the other “me”, the one who acquired the Mooncell for herself.
As a result of this link, we became one and the same.

And Extella states that the mere existance of possibilities means that parallel worlds gets created accordingly, so it follows that infinite possibilities means infinite worlds.

Also be aware that the official translation of the prologue explaining Quantum Time-Lock and the pruning phenomena in Fate/Extella is flawed. There is a more accurate translation from fallacies:

Upon the Earth, there is exists the hypothesis of "Adjacent Worlds."
The World is not one; rather, like a reflection in a pair of opposing mirrors, it infinitely unfolds.
Consequently, there cannot exist only a single future -- or so it's thought.
In other words --

Let's explain it like this.
The you that exists right now can be described as a you that exists somewhere within this flow of time.

It's probably difficult for you to envision.
After all, it's impossible for humans to even perceive "the Boundaries Between Worlds" (世界の壁, Sekai no Kabe) -- much less what lies beyond.
So, how about I rephrase?
Worlds that run adjacent are essentially as "possibilities."

Conclusions that may be possible.
Bonds that were abandoned.
Options that went unnoticed.
Divergent futures, wherein "what ifs" such as these were permitted.
It is indeed these "realities in which the future was altered" that are referred to as Adjacent Worlds.

The you who is now alive --
By the actions of the you who exists here and now, the course of the World can shift in any number of ways.
This is proof that "possibility" (可能性, kanousei) is itself still alive;
positive evidence that your World still lies upon its "proper axis" (正しい軸, Tadashii Jiku?).

In converse:
For those Worlds wherein the act of choice can no longer impact the future,
Adjacent Realities cannot exist.
Such timelines merely advance.
Losing even the possibility of undoing the past, they become distinct, solitary Worlds.

Their manifestation is a necessary evil, structurally mandated.
In those worlds where choiceless choices incessantly persist,
the form of the "World" familiar to you cannot endure.

There should exist worlds ruined by the repetition of choices in mortal error, yes?
There should exist worlds that excessively advanced their civilization by way of continuous innovation, yes?
But once a World arrives at such a state, it can no longer be counted as "a World comparable to the others" (他と同じ世界, hoka to onaji sekai).
If the Foundation of a World (世界の基盤, Sekai no Kiban) has deviated,
it becomes that which is known as an Otherworld (別世界, Betsu-Sekai, lit. "distinct reality").

But why do such realities become solitary?
Shouldn't it be that whatever the future, the possibility of adjacent advancement persists?

Unfortunately, this isn't the case.
The energy to account for the proliferation of unnecessary worlds,
exists nowhere within this Dimension (次元, Jigen).

That is to say,
the ceaseless proliferation of Adjacent Realities may eventually exceed the capacity of the Dimension as a whole.
Adjacent Realities are a necessary existence,
but they cannot be let to freely multiply.
It's a very rough estimation,
but should the Earth persist at its present level of civilization for another century, it's likely that the Solar System will collapse.

However, the reality is that we live and multiply.
The Solar System hasn't yet dissolved (緩和, kanwa, lit. "loosen / relax / alleviate") before the sheer volume of data that we produce,
and it's likely that the status quo (今の方式, ima no houshiki, lit. "the present formulation / system") can be sustained for another hundred million years.

And the principle behind it is simple.
To a certain extent, the existence known as the World conducts a hueristic analysis (統計, toukei) of timeline survivability (可能性, kanousei, lit. "possibility"),
preserving only those Outcomes wherein "the operation of the subsequent era" (次の時代の運営, Tsugi no Jidai no Unei) isn't impossible.
For those Adjacent Realities judged to be unnecessary --
the future is closed.

In more concrete terms, cumulative audits (集計, Shukei) are conducted at intervals of a century in scale (百年単位, hyakunen tan'i, lit. "units of a century"),
to the end of identifying and preserving only those realities capable of guaranteeing "the preservation of capacity for advancement in yet another century at bare minimum."
Per the systematic demands (法則, housoku, lit. "laws") that facilitate the Conservation of Mass (質量保存, Shitsuryou Hozon),
this process could be termed the Conservation of Phenomena (事象保存, Jijou Hozon).

Thusly, the civilizations of the many extant Adjacent Realities largely refrain from divergence.
You can imagine it as a great tree.
The worlds permitted to advance are restricted to the center -- comprising the trunk.
Those branches that diverge grow and multiply, but eventually succumb to their limitations (限界, Genkai),
falling to ruin without reaching a future.

You understand, yes?
Those worlds that advance too far into ruin or prosperity
are bankrupt of Adjacent Realities / Branching Potential (平行世界 / かのうせい, heikou sekai / kanousei).
Otherworlds (異世界, Isekai) such as these are little more than blind alleys / dead routes (袋小路 / デッドルート, fukurou-kouji / deddo ru-to) whose outcomes are foreordained.

The time of the culling
brings a termination to unnecessary possibilities --
the point at which, by force of Observation (観測, Kansoku), the mutable Histories of the past solidify as a static course.
This is what the Magi of the Old World (旧世界, Kyuusekai) referred to as Phenomenon Anchoring Bands (事象固定帯, Jijou Kotei-Tai) --
the Foundations of the Rationalities of Man (人理定礎, Jinri Teiso).

posEarth scientists have hypothesized the so-called 'parallel worlds,' other versions of Earth and its surroundings, expanding indefinitely like mirrored reflections. If true, that would mean that Earth has not only one future, but many. In other words ...
Think of it like this. The 'you' that you are aware of exists somewhere upon this timeline
It might sound unreal. Humans aren't equipped to perceive, let alone traverse, the 'wall between worlds.' But what if I put it another way? Think of these parallel worlds as other possibilities.
Imagine what might have been in your life. Think of the connections that were cut off and thrown away. Options you see now, in retrospect, that you would never have considered at the time. Picture how your life today might be different had those 'what ifs' come to pass. All those variant futures, in everyone's lives, make up the vast array of parallel worlds.
Your actions, those of the 'you' in this present moment on this particular timeline, can change the world in any number of ways. That proves such possibilities are alive, and that your world exists on the 'proper axis.
Conversely, a world where the future cannot be changed, regardless of your choices, can have no parallel worlds. Such a world is nothing but a dead end, solitary and singular, with a past as immutable as its future.
This is a necessary evil, a byproduct of the way parallel worlds are structured together. After all, a world where humanity made radically different choices would bear very little resemblance to the world you know.
Some worlds may have crumbled by making all the worse choices. Others may have made all the right ones, and rocketed ahead, perhaps too far ahead. In either case, that world can no longer be said to resemble ours, and once a world moves out of sync, it is no longer 'parallel.
Why would those worlds become solitary,' you ask? 'Could the people in those worlds not still make different choices?
Unfortunately, this isn't the case.
The energy to account for the proliferation of unnecessary worlds,
exists nowhere within this Dimension (次元, Jigen).

If parallel worlds continued to increase in this manner, their number would eventually exceed the capacity of this dimension. Parallel worlds must exist, but in a manageable quantity. By my own rough calculations, and judging by the civilization of Earth alone, this solar system would collapse within 100 years if parallel worlds expanded without limits.
Seeing as how we do, in fact, live and multiply, the solar system is clearly not oversaturated with possibilities at this time, I extrapolate that this dimension can sustain our existence for the next 100,000,000 years.
The system works thusly: At regular intervals, the dimension takes stock of the possibilities it contains, and only allows certain outcomes, those that would not cause undue difficulty in managing the next generation, to remain. As for the unneeded parallel worlds, the system closes off their futures.
Specifically, every 100 years, it calculates how many worlds will last another 100 years, and supports those worlds only. Have you heard of the Law of Conservation of Mass? This could be called the Law of Conservation of Events.
And so, the civilization in these numerous parallel worlds line up with one another. Think of it all as a giant tree. Only the trunk at the center can grow tall. The branches may bear fruit, but eventually they reach their limit, and fall without reaching the future.
You understand, yes? There are no parallel worlds for a world that has evolved too fast or crumbled too quickly. Such worlds are merely dead ends whose outcomes are predetermined
And so, there is a set time frame in which these branches are trimmed, extra possibilities are removed, and future histories, once fluid, turn to stone. The mages of the old world called this time frame 'the Foundation of Humanity.

There are various differences between the two translations, but the relevant one here is that what exhausts the universe is not the overall number of worlds, but the existance of worlds where human choices can no longer lead to significant change and branching (due to human civilization changing into a dystopia or utopia).

Here is how FGO explained the prunning concept in the first Lostbelt:
Avicebron
I would like to know that as well. Are you originally a Servant from this Lostbelt?
I believe the Crypter...that boy, Kadoc, called this place a Lostbelt.

Salieri
So you know of that name. ...First, let me answer your question with one of my own.
Tell me, humans of Chaldea: What do you know about the Lostbelts?

Mash
Well, uh... Only that they're abnormal zones that somewhat resemble Singularities...

Holmes
If you don't mind, Ms. Kyrielight, I'll field that one. First, it is a pleasure to make your acquaintance, Mr. Salieri.
I'm Sherlock Holmes, Chaldea's administrative advisor. I became a Servant through unusual means, just like you.
We have been investigating this peculiar version of Russia, where history is so unlike our own.
I have a number of hypotheses, but had been unable to find a critical element to tie everything together...
...until you first mentioned that word.
Lostbelt. A chronological table detailing an alternate path taken by human history. An unbroken strip that continues onward to the present day, rather than occupying a single point in time.
...No wonder it isn't like a Singularity. A Singularity is one point in time where history as it should be went awry, after all.
That is not the case here in Russia. In this world, everything is as it should be. Nothing has gone awry.
It has history quite separate from our own Proper Human History, even though it is not a world gone completely mad like the Singularities.
No doubt the branching point was the Great Cold Wave that struck four hundred and fifty years ago, when Earth was thrown into a new ice age.
And Russia as we see it now is the product of history moving forward from that point.

Mash
So...you're saying this is an ongoing deviation from human history? Is that anything like a parallel world?

Da Vinci
Nope, it's not that. These Lostbelts are something altogether different.
If we assume that parallel worlds exist, then their civilization and lifestyle should also be fundamentally the same.
By definition, they're closely tied to a well-defined base world. In other words, the base world and its parallel worlds are all following the same course.
But let's say there is a world where history diverges radically, going completely off the rails.
Say, at one point, something changes irrevocably...it could be a huge natural disaster, or a major technological breakthrough...
...and the world that's gone off the rails is effectively erased from this universe, deemed to be something that doesn't belong.
Once that happens, its destruction is all but assured. No matter how developed it might be, its evolution just ends.
For better or worse, this universe just isn't willing to tolerate worlds whose future prospects are plain to see.
You know how you prune unnecessary branches when you're trying to grow a tree? Same thing here.
If a world, even a utopia, strays too far from its base axis, it gets the clippers, so to speak.
In the magecraft world, it's called the Pruning Theoretical Phenomenon...
...and it's what allows our universe to keep expanding unimpeded. That's the Mage's Association stance, anyway.

Mash
The Pruning Theoretical Phenomenon... Then, Russia didn't end up as a frozen wasteland because of a plot, like what happened with the King of Mages...

Holmes
Correct. Its climate has always been like this, and it is in fact that very climate that led to the changes in human history.
This is a world where history continued on past the hundred year marker, long after it would ordinarily have been pruned away.
In essence, this history lost to Proper Human History. But now it has appeared in our own world.
Right. It looks like strong alternative histories, or Lostbelts, which we know almost nothing about...
...are being wielded as weapons to invade and destroy Proper Human History.
The Incineration of Humanity was an attack on human history orchestrated by Goetia, a singular entity.
But now, these Lostbelts are attacking the very world itself.
...If I were to give this a name, I think I might call it the Felling Theoretical Phenomenon. Hmm. Yeah, I think I like the sound of that. Let's go with it.

Choices
  • ...Lostbelts...
  • History that lost to other history...

Meunière
Are you serious...? Then what, you're telling us this Russia is going to become the de facto way of life for the entire planet!?

Holmes
If it continues on this path, yes. But of course, we won't let it come to that.

Holmes
Now then! That went on quite a bit longer than I had anticipated, but that is our current theory.
Tell me, Mr. Salieri, are we more or less on the mark?

Salieri
...Yes, you're spot-on. I'm impressed you managed to arrive at that conclusion without being from a Lostbelt yourselves.
There is nothing more I can tell you beyond what you've figured out. Now that you have the facts, what you do with them is up to you.

Here is how Waver explained it in the Fate/Zero event:
El-Melloi II
Indeed, I am familiar with Fuyuki City in Japan... Or so I'd like to say.
But unfortunately, my knowledge is estranged from the history recorded by Laplace here in Chaldea.

Dr. Roman
That's expected. Now that human history has been incinerated,
many different possibilities got mixed in with Chaldeas' observation results.
Perhaps, Chaldeas didn't exist in the history where Mr. El-Melloi II came from.
Your world and our world... I am not sure which one is the proper history, however...
It is obvious that both worlds are “centered and extremely close to each other.” Otherwise, you wouldn't have been summoned.

El-Melloi II
You're talking about the cluster of parallel worlds in the Primary Branch... In other words, Phenomena Permissible for Revision that share the same future despite minor differences...
And Phenomena Designated for Removal: the cluster of parallel worlds that would eventually lead to ruin like fallen leaves.
Unfortunately, that kind of topic is out of my purview.
It's a part of the World that, unless you're one with a Heroic Spirit like me, is hard to understand.
Besides, it's not something Gudako must hear, either.

So again the problem is not the overall number of worlds. What the universe is unable to tolerate is deviating from the overall trajectory of human civilization or Proper Human History (regardless of minor difference) into a world that is too predictable and lacking the ability to branch due to being a utopia or dystopia.

So there is no issue with having an infinite number of parallel worlds, regardless if they are completely identical mirror images of each other or similar enough to various extent, as long as they are part of Proper Human History and won't become Lostbelts.
 
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Also be aware that the official translation of the prologue explaining Quantum Time-Lock and the pruning phenomena in Fate/Extella is flawed. There is a more accurate translation from fallacies:
I believe that is actually covered in my old outdated cosmology blog so it is the info I used is fan translated.
Specifically the part of the quantum time lock:
https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Quantum_Time-Lock#cite_note-extella_mat-1

"Quantum Time-lock [Existence]

Spiritron Record Anchoring Bands (霊子記録固定帯, Reishi Kiroku Kotei-tai).

An event that manifests at regular intervals for the purpose of anchoring the Average Expression (平均値, heikin-chi?, lit. "Average Values") of phenomena as absolutes.

This universe permits the birth of unlimited possibilities, numerous adjacent worlds, and divergent developments of history.

However, as the unrestricted propagation of this process would exhaust the lifespan of the universe, at set intervals, those extraneous worlds routes ( 世界ルート, sekairu-to?) removed of the category of "routes characterized by survivability and stability" are culled (伐採, basai, lit. "cull" / "prune"), so as to prevent the needless expenditure of energy.

The Mooncell has concluded that the means by which our Universe of Awareness (認識宇宙) -- fundamentally unstable by nature -- is stabilized across the Past, Present, and Future lie in the execution of "culling" and the formation of "records" (記録帯, Kiroku-tai, lit. "Recording Bands").

If left alone, the Great Tree Known as Time (時間という大樹, Jikan to Iu Daiju?) will branch without restriction, and the behavior of culling serves to remove those divergences that are unnecessary, leaving only the "trunk" to advance. This is the simplest image by which to comprehend the phenomena.

Any history that has been secured as an anchoring band (固定帯, kotei-tai) become as an existence impervious to interference from the past and future; events or phenomena that exist within the purview of the anchoring band are utterly immovable.

Hypothetically, if one were to move to a chronological position in the past of an "anchoring band" to the purpose of modifying history, as time progresses unto the position of the "anchoring band," history would be forcibly corrected (強引に復元, gouin ni fukugen?, lit. "forcibly restored") to its state of record.

In those universes wherein Quantum Time-Locks are imposed, the "outcomes" that have been registered to anchoring bands are categorically unchangeable. Thus, that which would be open for time travelers to modify would be invariably restricted to "process."

For example, let us presume that the "outcome" that "Britain was destroyed" is secured as a matter of record.

In the circumstance that a process wherein "Britain comes to prosper; its wars are concluded; and happiness is granted to its people" is successfully brought about, in the moment that history advances unto the anchoring band, the outcome whereby "even so, Britain came unto its destruction" manifests.

One or two -- or any number of lives might be saved.

However, modification to the overall course of the History of Man (人類史, Jinrui-shi) is decisively beyond possibility.

These are the Quantum Time-Locks -- those existences referred to within Thaumaturgical Society as Human Order Foundations (人理定礎, Jinri Teiso?, lit. "Foundations of the Rationality of Man").

To rephrase, it is potentially possible that by some immense undertaking, the course of the History of Man could be fundamentally denied by successful revocation (破壊, hakai, destruction) of a "Quantum Time-Lock," but even by this method, that which is denied is restricted to "the History of Man that falls subsequent to the anchoring band."

The purview of a "Quantum Time-Lock" due to manifest may be dictated only those who live within the era. Intervention from the past or future is incapable of directly influencing the formation of a Quantum Time-Lock."




Kiara states that there are 'innumerable versions' of her in 'numberless universes':
Sessyoin Kiara
Yes. Zepar's power taught me about many worlds so different from our own.
Ah... “Parallel worlds” is it? Yes... “Chronicle Theoretical Phenomenon” and the like? Complex concepts.
That is how I came to know about another version of me, one among the countless number to exist.
And in her world, distant in time and space, the moon itself was a Holy Grail called the Mooncell Automaton.
In a deep, dark space known as the Far Side of the Moon, that version of me was able to claim the Grail.
Among the innumerable versions of me in numberless universes, she was the most...unique. Zepar was very, very pleased with her. So much so that he linked us together.
I...I who did nothing but suffer as Seraphix fell into a frenzy...
...and into the other “me”, the one who acquired the Mooncell for herself.
As a result of this link, we became one and the same.
In the same statement, it also mentions “many worlds” which definitely make things interesting.
 
So again the problem is not the overall number of worlds. What the universe is unable to tolerate is deviating from the overall trajectory of human civilization or Proper Human History (regardless of minor difference) into a world that is too predictable and lacking the ability to branch due to being a utopia or dystopia.

I will disagree with you on this specific point as in the materials you provided specifically mentioned the number of worlds being produced to a infinite level is what cause the problems in the first place. After all, why would the mat specifically mentioned this part:


This universe permits the birth of unlimited possibilities, numerous adjacent worlds, and divergent developments of history.

However, as the unrestricted propagation of this process would exhaust the lifespan of the universe, at set intervals, those extraneous worlds routes ( 世界ルート, sekairu-to?) removed of the category of "routes characterized by survivability and stability" are culled (伐採, basai, lit. "cull" / "prune"), so as to prevent the needless expenditure of energy.”

Also the statement you posted from Fate Extella has this part too:

“If parallel worlds continued to increase in this manner, their number would eventually exceed the capacity of this dimension. Parallel worlds must exist, but in a manageable quantity. By my own rough calculations, and judging by the civilization of Earth alone, this solar system would collapse within 100 years if parallel worlds expanded without limits.
Seeing as how we do, in fact, live and multiply, the solar system is clearly not oversaturated with possibilities at this time, I extrapolate that this dimension can sustain our existence for the next 100,000,000 years.
The system works thusly: At regular intervals, the dimension takes stock of the possibilities it contains, and only allows certain outcomes, those that would not cause undue difficulty in managing the next generation, to remain. As for the unneeded parallel worlds, the system closes off their futures.
Specifically, every 100 years, it calculates how many worlds will last another 100 years, and supports those worlds only. Have you heard of the Law of Conservation of Mass? This could be called the Law of Conservation of Events.
And so, the civilization in these numerous parallel worlds line up with one another. Think of it all as a giant tree. Only the trunk at the center can grow tall. The branches may bear fruit, but eventually they reach their limit, and fall without reaching the future.”
 
So again the problem is not the overall number of worlds. What the universe is unable to tolerate is deviating from the overall trajectory of human civilization or Proper Human History (regardless of minor difference) into a world that is too predictable and lacking the ability to branch due to being a utopia or dystopia.

I will disagree with you on this specific point as in the materials you provided specifically mentioned the number of worlds being produced to a infinite level is what cause the problems in the first place. After all, why would the mat specifically mentioned this part:


This universe permits the birth of unlimited possibilities, numerous adjacent worlds, and divergent developments of history.

However, as the unrestricted propagation of this process would exhaust the lifespan of the universe, at set intervals, those extraneous worlds routes ( 世界ルート, sekairu-to?) removed of the category of "routes characterized by survivability and stability" are culled (伐採, basai, lit. "cull" / "prune"), so as to prevent the needless expenditure of energy.”
It mentions it to say there are unlimited possibilities, and then explains what the actual issue is. It talks about the unlimited worlds, before then going "however, here's what is the issue". If the issue was the number, it would have said that, there wouldn't have been a however, they'd simply have said that the number can't get too high, but it starts off saying there's already unlimited.
Also the statement you posted from Fate Extella has this part too:

“If parallel worlds continued to increase in this manner, their number would eventually exceed the capacity of this dimension. Parallel worlds must exist, but in a manageable quantity.
As I said in my earlier comment, this part here actually doesn't exist in the Japanese version of the text, and is exclusively something thrown in by localization. This excerpt is just the localization of what Shadow already posted, which has lines outright not found in the original text
 
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