2-A Mooncell Question

[Hasty12345]

So I read BB's page and these are the scans used to justify 2-A (I've put them in an a folder):



combined with:



Which end up being quite a few "infinite possibilities" statements and using an Extella scan, they use to justify those possibilities becoming timelines - and thus a 2-A structure.

However, upon further reading of the Extella scene, it is explicitly stated that timelines are "killed' (for lack of a better term) to maintain the "law of conservation of events" which prohibits infinite timelines from existing to begin with, despite the possibilities of such.



(first 4 minutes of this video gives full context).

So I was just wondering why BB is 2-A given the justification for possibilities = timelines from Extella is contradicted not even 2 minutes later and again in FGO.

Thank you for any and all help.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

This was brought up and addressed back when they were first upgraded to 2-A. Here's the upgrade threads.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/big-fate-extra-additions-mainly-extella-upgrade-for-the-tier-2.57072/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/fate-revision-thread-continuation.59211/

 

[Hasty12345]

This was brought up and addressed back when they were first upgraded to 2-A. Here's the upgrade threads.

Surely you could just explain why I'm wrong instead of sending me 700 posts worth of argumentation

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

I'm not smart enough to

 

[Hasty12345]

I'm not smart enough to

These scans tell me that the possibilities are only data and not actually universes/timelines, this coupled with the fact Extella explicitly states infinite timelines cannot be sustained by the "dimension" makes things confusing for me .

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

• "Moon Cell just simulates things, it's data, it's not real etc.". This is a common argument when it comes to Moon Cell. I believe we don't actually take this argument seriously anymore because trying to equalize the Moon Cell to something like a Dell laptop is ridiculous. Moon Cell has power to interact with things outside of itself, it could send BB to Grand Order universe etc. It is capable of creating Soul. It contains Imaginary numbers space, a form of space that is very real and not some "data", which was featured in Extra CCC and Grand Order. Someone like BB (AI created by the Moon Cell) is not only capable of interacting with such concept, but merged herself with it as well. Description of "Universe of Record" posted above also states that it's a domain that encompasses Space and Time. Therefore reality within the Moon Cell is not some regular computer data. Also, feats performed within the Moon Cell were recently used as proof for high 3-A/low 2-C tiering, so in overall context of Nasuverse, it is real.

From the OP in the second thread. As for Extella it contains multiple contradictions in itself, like Gilgamesh being affected by the far side, so we don't take it at face value.

 

[Hasty12345]

So the idea is essentially "Via verse equalization we treat the big laptop and the data inside it to be literal"?

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

It's not verse equalization, it's how it explicitly functions in-universe

 

[Hasty12345]

It's not verse equalization, it's how it explicitly functions in-universe

It's also explicitly stated in Extella (which is used on the profile to justify data/possibilities = timelines) that 2-A is an in-verse impossibility, but explicit statements seem to be ignored here.

Thank-you for answering, but I feel like the BB's justification should probably not use Extella if we're just gonna ignore most of it.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

I think we use stuff from Last Encore actually

 

[Hasty12345]

I think we use stuff from Last Encore actually

Multiverse level+ (She became the Mooncell and swallowed it, which is stated to have contained infinite numbers of possibilities, which are confirmed to be parallel worlds ,....)

The parallel words scan is from Extella.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

Okay, checked with knowledgeables.

So what's happening here is that you're taking that quite and interpreting it to mean "it can't have an infinite amount" when it's actually just saying "it can't be allowed to grow endlessly without being controlled" Which doesn't preclude an infinite amount being the starting point

 

[Hasty12345]

Okay, checked with knowledgeables.

So what's happening here is that you're taking that quite and interpreting it to mean "it can't have an infinite amount" when it's actually just saying "it can't be allowed to grow endlessly without being controlled" Which doesn't preclude an infinite amount being the starting point

So what you're telling me..... Is if the verse cannot have a 2-A cosmology via in-verse "laws", that because infinite timelines IN THEORY can exist, the laptop gets 2-A?

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

"Is if the verse cannot have a 2-A cosmology via in-verse "laws""

The verse already has a 2-A cosmology, as is even stated as early as the original fate/stay night novel.

 

[Hasty12345]

The verse already has a 2-A cosmology, as is even stated as early as the original fate/stay night novel.

multiple contradictions

So we only use contradictions when it suits us?

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

THere aren't any contradictions though? You're taking statements out of context, and then using that to ignore what has been very well established already in-verse.

 

[Hasty12345]

THere aren't any contradictions though? You're taking statements out of context, and then using that to ignore what has been very well established already in-verse.

could you send the SN scan?

obviously this isn't a CRT, I just don't understand how a 2-A cosmology can exist when it's explicitly stated in the newer media it cannot. And you can say "I'm warping context" all you want, I'm assuming you've read the scans as well, Extella and FGO verbatim state 2-A is impossible.

Edit: this interpretation comes from someone who hasn't seen the SN scan, so the notion of an "already established cosmology" is non-existent to me.

So I would very much like to see the SN scan.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

Just read what I posted earlier. THey don't say 2-A is impossible, they say you can't let the total amount, which explicily already starts at infinity, grow too much without being pruned.

 

[Hasty12345]

Just read what I posted earlier. THey don't say 2-A is impossible, they say you can't let the total amount, which explicily already starts at infinity, grow too much without being pruned.

Extella also states dimensions have finite energy, so the idea of infinite timelines existing makes 0 sense.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

Beyond that I really cannot do anything more for you, my man

 

[Hasty12345]

Beyond that I really cannot do anything more for you, my man

well, thank you for your help anyways, I'll leave the Fate scaling to the experts.

 

[PhantomØ4]

This probably isn’t a good idea but

I have a question though, why does Gilgamesh and the far-side have any effect on a unrelated subject on the credibility of the game? A game can’t lose credibility like that, it makes little sense.

Another thing, diverging timelines from the moon cell and the infinite parallel worlds from Fate/Stay Night VN are different thing so why are they treated as supporting info for the infinite possibilities statements? It makes more sense than characters exaggerate the number of branching timelines than a law of the world being wrong.

It’s basically saying law of the world < characters throwing around the word “infinity”.

 

[Hasty12345]

This probably isn’t a good idea but

I have a question though, why does Gilgamesh and the far-side have any effect on a unrelated subject on the credibility of the game? A game can’t lose credibility like that, it makes little sense.

Another thing, diverging timelines from the moon cell and the infinite parallel worlds from Fate/Stay Night VN are different thing so why are they treated as supporting info for the infinite possibilities statements? It makes more sense than characters exaggerate the number of branching timelines than a law of the world being wrong.

It’s basically saying law of the world < characters throwing around the word “infinity”.

The SN scan says there's endless worlds but there's a possibility for infinite - which we know cannot physically exist due to Extella. So SN didn't even establish a 2-A cosmology, it established a 2-B physically existing cosmology and 2-A possible cosmology.
(it turns out I saved it in the imgur folder, it's the image with the daggers I've been told).

 

[PhantomØ4]

No, it does say infinite numerous times. But they’re not talking about diverging timelines, they’re talking about the unrelated worlds that can only be reached with one of the true Magics.



The diverging timelines from the moon cell are universes that shared a common beginning but diverged. The parallel worlds from stay Night are worlds that didn’t share a beginning to start with. Them being used against quantum locks makes little sense again because they’re not the same existences.

 

[Hasty12345]

No, it does say infinite numerous times. But they’re not talking about diverging timelines, they’re talking about the unrelated worlds that can only be reached with one of the true Magics.



The diverging timelines from the moon cell are universes that shared a common beginning but diverged. The parallel worlds from stay Night are worlds that didn’t share a beginning to start with. Them being used against quantum locks makes little sense again because they’re not the same existences.

SO if I'm interpreting this correctly, you're saying there are "infinite dimensions" but within each "dimension" there can only be finite diverging timelines?

Combining what you just presented with what I've presenetd?

 

[PhantomØ4]

Yeah pretty much. The moon cell should only scale to the finite worlds as far as I’m aware.

The DaVinci scan is a very good supporting thing as well since most of the scans used are statements along the lines of infinite possibilities. El Meloi backs up the law of the world and well the law of the world itself is pretty hard to debunk by simply bringing up an unrelated event and character statements which are less reliable than the narration explaining a law of the world.

 

[Hasty12345]

Yeah pretty much. The moon cell should only scale to the finite worlds as far as I’m aware.

The DaVinci scan is a very good supporting thing as well since most of the scans used are statements along the lines of infinite possibilities. El Meloi backs up the law of the world and well the law of the world itself is pretty hard to debunk by simply bringing up an unrelated event and character statements which are less reliable than the narration explaining a law of the world.

Thank you for explaining things to me, I thought the Mooncell scaling was incredibly weird, especially given the JUSTIFICATION for possibilities = timelines comes from a source literally stating 2-A is impossible....

 

[Paul_Frank]

The only contradictions are born via interpreting a single line incorrectly

The lines from fgo are saying that possibilities are in fact endless (there are infinite universes) however the outcomes aren't (not all of these reach a conclusion because some are pruned). Then Waver further explains that worlds permissible for removal are eventually erased because they're too different, this matches up with what we are told in Extella, and what we see in FGO Part 1.5 and Part 2.

Now, what does this actually mean. Well, this means that worlds which stray too far from the correct path, the greater history of man as we are shown in fgo (or whatever Tsukihime worlds operate off of, we'll maybe find out this summer), are then marked for deletion and pruned every 100 years. Now, the existence of lostbelts shows us two things. Number 1, this is not instant by any means. This means that even worlds marked for deletion still in fact exist for a while, this is also shown in the Mooncell's case just in case you thought this was limited to fgo, as worlds are just stored in the far side. Number 2, this "too much energy" nonsense has likely been retconned. Reason being, the trees, mere fractions of the Alien God's power, are able to sustain a lostbelt (which we see also have parallel universes inside them). Now, unless you want to say that the Alien God has serveral times the energy of the World, thus putting it on the level of the Types (which it all but says it's weaker than), this makes no sense.

Now, ignoring this and going back to the Extella line to show why it's being interpreted wrong or was also flat out retconned, so you're not just taking my word for it. Let's go over what has been established before this line in Extella. In FSN, we are told about the infinite parallel worlds when they explain the 2nd magic, when Nasu explains the Brunestud fight, he explains that Zelretch used a "limitless ether cannon", which, going of the FSN information, would have been done by drawing energy from a limitless amount of worlds. We are told in Extra as well that the Mooncell has envisioned infinite if futures.

Then comes this line in Extra, and what is saying is "if parallel worlds continued to multiply unchecked, their cost would eventually exceed the amount of energy that can be provided." What you, and others I've seen, are then assuming is "there can't be infinite universes or the solar system would collapse because muh energy."

This requires a few assumptions to be correct. 1. We have a finite starting point 2. FSN, Tsukihime and Extra, which were all consistent in this matter, are incorrect, and can be ignored. 3. Everything following this, which might be consistent with Tsukihime, Extra, FSN etc, is also incorrect, and can be ignored.

FGO also repeated the fact there were an infinite amount in Solomon for instance.

In order to say this one line from Extella completely nullifies any mentions of infinite universes or possibilities, one must be disingenuous and ignore a lot of information.

The quotes from fgo also don't inherently disprove infinite universes, especially when we see more later on about what they mean.

Let's assume an infinite starting point, because that's what's been implied throughout the series, and well, that means the starting point has to be infinite because you can't add finite values to reach infinity.

Number of worlds= infinite
Marked for deletion= 99999999
Number of worlds for the next 100 years is still infinite, then those worlds are finally deleted, and the number would still be infinite, and not only that, based on the explanation of how these worlds are possibilities and that each is different based on an idea of "Well what if Y instead of X?", that number of losses would have absolutely been recuperated by that time.

As for this new thing that was just brought up, about diverging timelines not being the same as parallel worlds, yes, you're correct to an extent. The diverging timelines that differ too much are no longer parallel, those are the ones that get marked for deletion if they get to a certain point. However, the parallel worlds do in fact share the same starting points, the ones that have different starting points are the adjacent worlds, such as Tsukihime vs FSN etc.

The idea that there are apparently infinite parallel dimensions that each house finite timelines and nothing affects those outside of the 2nd magic isn't actually supported by literally anything besides the description of the 2nd magic's domain being "the operation of parallel worlds" which is sometimes said by some online as "the operation of parallel dimensions". That is literally the only thing that can even give someone this idea, as none of the scans posted actually support this idea.

 

[Hasty12345]

This requires a few assumptions to be correct. 1. We have a finite starting point 2. FSN, Tsukihime and Extra, which were all consistent in this matter, are incorrect, and can be ignored. 3. Everything following this, which might be consistent with Tsukihime, Extra, FSN etc, is also incorrect, and can be ignored.

seems more like the canons should be split due to incoherent cosmology views.

In order to say this one line from Extella completely nullifies any mentions of infinite universes or possibilities, one must be disingenuous and ignore a lot of information.

Not only can retcons occur in a verse like this, no one has taken issue with "infinite possibilities", it's "infinite existing timelines" which is verbatim stated cannot occur.

I'm fine with just dropping this, this has been discussed in CRTs by more adept scalers than I.

 

[PhantomØ4]

yeah, the reasoning right now is certainly not flawless it just got through in the CRT it’s not like an agreement was reached from what I can tell just good old number thing. But Someone would have to take initiative and have enough support for a CRT to change anything at this point which would be pretty hard.

 

[Tam0n3n]

If Alaya is responsible for pruning timelines, can we give Alaya a page? And add Quantum Time-Lock as a 2-A/2-B ability for erasing timelines to "save up energy"? iirc Alaya only exist in universes, where human exist, since she is the collect will of mankind.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I've mostly removed myself from VsBattle stuff in general, at least in here, but since Hasty brought it up, I just decided to comment my overall thoughts since am sure it was known I don't support 2-A in the slightest. Do with what I said as you will, as my willpower for VS stuff has been kinda sapped and I will likely not care much about replying, at least in the foreseeable future.


Defining what possibilities are:

---

So, this is what is said in the actual prologue:

Upon the Earth, there is exists the hypothesis of "Adjacent Worlds."

The World is not one; rather, like a reflection in a pair of opposing mirrors, it infinitely unfolds. Consequently, there cannot exist only a single future -- or so it's thought. In other words --

Let's explain it like this. The you that exists right now can be described as a you that exists somewhere within this flow of time.

It's probably difficult for you to envision. After all, it's impossible for humans to even perceive "the Boundaries Between Worlds" (世界の壁, Sekai no Kabe?) -- much less what lies beyond.

So, how about I rephrase? Worlds that run adjacent are essentially as "possibilities."

Conclusions that may be possible.
Bonds that were abandoned.
Options that went unnoticed.

Divergent futures, wherein "what ifs" such as these were permitted. It is indeed these "realities in which the future was altered" that are referred to as Adjacent Worlds.

This is the main excerpt from the Altera prologue. This ain't the localization, this is a direct translation by fans. The reason why I choose this is... honestly, just ask any japanese-speaking fan, fate isn't immune to localization **** ups, especially due to the specific wording Nasu uses many times (Anyone remember trichiliocosm as Multiverse? Or maybe one of many random little mistakes in the localization), so a fan one keeping that into account feels far more significant.

Just like in the Rin bit, here possibilities are addressed and equated to timelines. If you mention "possibility", you mean "timeline". Let's put aside for now that the rest of this very same prologue then goes on to mention both "the limited amount of energy in this dimension" (and just to say, Hasty, the interpretation is that dimension refers to the Human Order since the entire criteria for pruning/deletion is human history and the shape of humanity in each possibility) and that too much data would dissolve the Solar System (which through Wallachia and Melty, we have seen high density of data tends to have an effect on physical reality, hence his Malignant Information), both things completely contradictory to the idea of "infinite", but I digress.​

Quantum Time-lock [Existence]

Spiritron Record Anchoring Bands (霊子記録固定帯, Reishi Kiroku Kotei-tai).

An event that manifests at regular intervals for the purpose of anchoring the Average Expression (平均値, heikin-chi?, lit. "Average Values") of phenomena as absolutes.

This universe permits the birth of unlimited possibilities, numerous adjacent worlds, and divergent developments of history.

However, as the unrestricted propagation of this process would exhaust the lifespan of the universe, at set intervals, those extraneous world routes (世界ルート, sekairu-to?) removed of the category of "routes characterized by survivability and stability" are culled (伐採, basai, lit. "cull" / "prune"), so as to prevent the needless expenditure of energy.

And here is the reason why I brought up that excerpt. "Unlimited possibilities, numerous adjacent worlds". Here we see that there's a clear divide between possible worlds and adjacent worlds, as in worlds that are truly manifest and not just unrealized possibilities. And adjacent world would be a branch in the tree, a possibility would just be a branch that could exist in a month, a year, more time perhaps, but not now. Okay, so what about all this equating both?

This is simply personal interpretation, but:​

It's probably difficult for you to envision. After all, it's impossible for humans to even perceive "the Boundaries Between Worlds" (世界の壁, Sekai no Kabe?) -- much less what lies beyond.

It is just colloquial speak. Is much simpler to simply explain it as "possibilities", because that isn't even wrong. All adjacent worlds are possibilities, but not all possibilities are adjacent worlds. But to a normal person that can't perceive any of this, it might as well be the same. Notice the moment possibility and adjacent worlds are treated as the same, is in here,​

So, how about I rephrase? Worlds that run adjacent are essentially as "possibilities."

after the narration itself admits how complicated it may be to think about, and so decides to rephrase for the sake of explanation.

So what makes sense here?

• The explanation with infinite timelines that disregards the so-called finite energy of the Human Order, disregards that too much data would dissolve the Solar System, disregards the entire reason Quantum Timelocks happen, or why timelines are culled, or everything besides the fact that something is infinite in number.
• My explanation where the constant statements of infinite possibilities are not incongruent, or even inconsistent, with the statements of limited adjacent worlds and a finite amount of energy to maintain them. Literally, everything is consistent with each other like this.

Seriously, stop making hyper-complicated excuses just to keep infinite timelines. Is becoming really dumb.


Rin and Rani's statements​

---

Now, what about the statements of Rin and Rani and other people? OH BOY is this even better! Let's chance a look at Waver's Interlude from FGO:​

Dr. Roman:
Well, this is something that I can't really explain either.
Consequently, I've brought along somebody who seems like they'd be able to.

El-Melloi:
I see. So that's why I've been called, huh?

Mashu:
Zhuge Kongming ......
No, Lord El-Melloi II-san!

El-Melloi:
I am indeed familiar with the city of Fuyuki, Japan ......
Or so I'd like to claim.
Unfortunately, the knowledge that I possess is of a history that diverges from that recorded by Chaldea's LAPLACE.

Dr. Roman:
Well, that can't be helped.
Since the incineration of the History of Man, the observations provided by CHALDEAS have been compromised by all sorts of arbitrary 'probabilities.'
Most likely, the timeline that El-Melloi II-kun is a native to just happens not to be viewable.
This world and that .......
It's just about impossible to determine which specific timeline actually represents the proper course of history.
In the end, however, it's fairly clear that our timelines are "worlds that lie near the center, which closely approach one another."
If not for that, I wouldn't have asked for your assistance.

El-Melloi:
You're referring to the cluster of adjacent worlds (並行世界群, Heikou Sekai-Gun) that fall within a Primary Branch (大幹, Daikan) ......
The "Items Permissible to Revision" (編纂事象, Hensan Jijyou, lit. "Editable Items / Phenomena"), within which the same futures manifest even if some degree of divergence exists, and the adjacent worlds of those Branches fated for destruction, which form as entirely separate realities ...
The "Items Designated for Omission" (剪定事象, Sentei Jijyou, lit. "Items / Phenomenon for Removal").
Sorry to say, but this particular subject is actually outside my area of expertise.
Delving into the matter would entail a discussion of the cosmology of the world that I presently comprehend only as a consequence of becoming one with a Heroic Spirit.
Also, it's largely irrelevant to the subject at hand.
Thus, I'll speak only of matters within my personal realm of experience.
At the least, I'll provide as a premise for discussion an account of "events as they occurred within my reality."
In the records available to you, the city of Fuyuki in the year 2004 is the space-time locale in which very first War of the Holy Grail was fought. However, to my knowledge, the count of the Grail Wars held in the city of Fuyuki numbers at five.

Mashu:
Five times! That many!?

Waver, one of the 12 Lords of the Clocktower, the highest position in the entire Clocktower, makes it quite clear adjacent timelines are completely out of his area of expertise. The only reason he has any relevant ability circumventing the issue is due to the knowledge provided as of his manifestation as a Pseudo-Servant. This is the same Waver whose entire point in Case Files is providing expositions on basically almost all things relevant to Magecraft and Cosmology, and is known and hated for understanding spell formulas with minimum information and rearing a bunch of star students with his intellect.

Meanwhile, not only Rin was surprised that Servants manifested as physical entities, she had no clue about the true nature of the Grail made by her own family. She was actually properly trained, unlike Sakura, but her knowledge is spotty and incomplete about a lot of things. Rani likewise is a homunculi of Atlas design, but nothing would indicate she's any erudite on these topics.


Moon Cell bullshit​

---

As for the "infinite timelines of the Moon Cell", well I guess 80% somehow makes sense, right? Velber/Sefar being able to destroy 80% of that information really makes me see that infinite amount of information (this is how percentages work, right?).​

It observes the determination of every possible destiny every second, computes further results, and stores everything inside itself as light.
There are untold tens of millions of lights years of light trapped within the core, and the entire photonic crystal structure is also powered by it.

The Moon Cell is a supermassive photonic crystal that uses light for computation and data storage purposes. The site even compares it to finer optics. Somehow, God knows how, finite amounts of light equate to infinite amounts of data.

And somehow, just because the Moon Cell can create an artificial reality, it must mean that all data that exists upon it is manifested at once as such artificial reality. Unlike, you know, simply existing as a bunch of stored data.

And with this am done with my rant and will therefore disappear again. Like I said, do with this as you will. Saw that someone decided to ask and had the free time so thought might as well finally explain part of my points. I'll be disappearing again, so don't expect any sort of reply.​

 

[Regidian]

---- Just to mention a thing that like many people always litteraly not tell, it's that the continuation of Altera prologue show and talk that it does not exist Exist one World with his parrallele world that get pruned. But many worlds with their parrallele world that get pruned.





"This is proof that "possibility" is itself still alive; positive evidence that your World still lies upon its "proper axis".

In converse: For those Worlds wherein the act of choice can no longer impact the future, Parallel Worlds cannot exist.

Such timelines merely advance.

Losing even the possibility of undoing the past, they become distinct, solitary Worlds.

Their manifestation is a necessary evil, structurally mandated.

In those worlds where choiceless choices incessantly persist, the form of the "World" familiar to you cannot endure.
There should exist worlds ruined by the repetition of choices in mortal error, yes?

There should exist worlds that excessively advanced their civilization by way of continuous innovation, yes?

But once a World arrives at such a state, it can no longer be counted as "a World comparable to the others". If the Foundation of a World has deviated, it becomes that which is known as an Otherworld.

But why do such realities become solitary? Shouldn't it be that whatever the future, the possibility of adjacent advancement persists?"




---- Quantum time lock is an event that here to stop Worlds from getting more possibilty or parrallele world by locked them in only outcome.



"If left alone, the Great Tree Known as Time will branch without restriction, and the behavior of culling serves to remove those divergences that are unnecessary, leaving only the "trunk" to advance. This is the simplest image by which to comprehend the phenomena.

Any history that has been secured as an anchoring band become as an existence impervious to interference from the past and future; events or phenomena that exist within the purview of the anchoring band are utterly immovable."



---- People forget that Parrallele World =/= Adjacent world.


Adjacent Worlds (並行世界) refer to divergent timelines that advance in adjacence to one another. In Fate/EXTELLA, it is stated that a World qualifies for culling if it entirely lacks the potential to diverge into Adjacent Worlds. Incidentally, Archimedes' capacity to travel between Adjacent Worlds is referred to as Sliding
.
"Adjacent Worlds" are terminologically distinct within the canon from Parallel Worlds, which appear to refer to timelines that advance in perfect parallel with no relationship of divergence.



--- For the moon cell, Archimedes have litteraly shift beetween these artificial reality you talk about. And like even BB who have like litteraly merge with Moon cell talk about all these reality ( + like the holy grail in Extra is litteraly Moon cell choosing an universe stored in the infinite one that correspond to your wish)

 

[Regidian]

But anyways in first don't know if this because we have different author but i never understood the limited energy in system solar part (In like what is the system solar you talk about? ) when we have thing like kama who is an infinite universe in one of these world inside the earth of the system solar, and we have Servant Universe which is a universe which is own Parralle World too

 

[Hasty12345]

I've mostly removed myself from VsBattle stuff in general, at least in here, but since Hasty brought it up, I just decided to comment my overall thoughts since am sure it was known I don't support 2-A in the slightest. Do with what I said as you will, as my willpower for VS stuff has been kinda sapped and I will likely not care much about replying, at least in the foreseeable future.


Defining what possibilities are:

---

So, this is what is said in the actual prologue:

This is the main excerpt from the Altera prologue. This ain't the localization, this is a direct translation by fans. The reason why I choose this is... honestly, just ask any japanese-speaking fan, fate isn't immune to localization **** ups, especially due to the specific wording Nasu uses many times (Anyone remember trichiliocosm as Multiverse? Or maybe one of many random little mistakes in the localization), so a fan one keeping that into account feels far more significant.

Just like in the Rin bit, here possibilities are addressed and equated to timelines. If you mention "possibility", you mean "timeline". Let's put aside for now that the rest of this very same prologue then goes on to mention both "the limited amount of energy in this dimension" (and just to say, Hasty, the interpretation is that dimension refers to the Human Order since the entire criteria for pruning/deletion is human history and the shape of humanity in each possibility) and that too much data would dissolve the Solar System (which through Wallachia and Melty, we have seen high density of data tends to have an effect on physical reality, hence his Malignant Information), both things completely contradictory to the idea of "infinite", but I digress.


And here is the reason why I brought up that excerpt. "Unlimited possibilities, numerous adjacent worlds". Here we see that there's a clear divide between possible worlds and adjacent worlds, as in worlds that are truly manifest and not just unrealized possibilities. And adjacent world would be a branch in the tree, a possibility would just be a branch that could exist in a month, a year, more time perhaps, but not now. Okay, so what about all this equating both?

This is simply personal interpretation, but:

It is just colloquial speak. Is much simpler to simply explain it as "possibilities", because that isn't even wrong. All adjacent worlds are possibilities, but not all possibilities are adjacent worlds. But to a normal person that can't perceive any of this, it might as well be the same. Notice the moment possibility and adjacent worlds are treated as the same, is in here,

after the narration itself admits how complicated it may be to think about, and so decides to rephrase for the sake of explanation.

So what makes sense here?

• The explanation with infinite timelines that disregards the so-called finite energy of the Human Order, disregards that too much data would dissolve the Solar System, disregards the entire reason Quantum Timelocks happen, or why timelines are culled, or everything besides the fact that something is infinite in number.
• My explanation where the constant statements of infinite possibilities are not incongruent, or even inconsistent, with the statements of limited adjacent worlds and a finite amount of energy to maintain them. Literally, everything is consistent with each other like this.

Seriously, stop making hyper-complicated excuses just to keep infinite timelines. Is becoming really dumb.


Rin and Rani's statements​

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Now, what about the statements of Rin and Rani and other people? OH BOY is this even better! Let's chance a look at Waver's Interlude from FGO:

Waver, one of the 12 Lords of the Clocktower, the highest position in the entire Clocktower, makes it quite clear adjacent timelines are completely out of his area of expertise. The only reason he has any relevant ability circumventing the issue is due to the knowledge provided as of his manifestation as a Pseudo-Servant. This is the same Waver whose entire point in Case Files is providing expositions on basically almost all things relevant to Magecraft and Cosmology, and is known and hated for understanding spell formulas with minimum information and rearing a bunch of star students with his intellect.

Meanwhile, not only Rin was surprised that Servants manifested as physical entities, she had no clue about the true nature of the Grail made by her own family. She was actually properly trained, unlike Sakura, but her knowledge is spotty and incomplete about a lot of things. Rani likewise is a homunculi of Atlas design, but nothing would indicate she's any erudite on these topics.


Moon Cell bullshit​

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As for the "infinite timelines of the Moon Cell", well I guess 80% somehow makes sense, right? Velber/Sefar being able to destroy 80% of that information really makes me see that infinite amount of information (this is how percentages work, right?).

The Moon Cell is a supermassive photonic crystal that uses light for computation and data storage purposes. The site even compares it to finer optics. Somehow, God knows how, finite amounts of light equate to infinite amounts of data.

And somehow, just because the Moon Cell can create an artificial reality, it must mean that all data that exists upon it is manifested at once as such artificial reality. Unlike, you know, simply existing as a bunch of stored data.

And with this am done with my rant and will therefore disappear again. Like I said, do with this as you will. Saw that someone decided to ask and had the free time so thought might as well finally explain part of my points. I'll be disappearing again, so don't expect any sort of reply.​

I very much appreciate your response and time+effort.

If I choose to make a CRT in the future, I would like to quote your stance if that's ok with you? I think you've provided much needed insight.

 

[Tam0n3n]

Just a reminder that Quantum time-lock didn't exist back then when Alaya wasn't born yet. Moon Cell itself is much older (4.6 Billion BC) than the pruning process of human history. Quantum Time-Lock has a very limited range

 

[LehenDuo]

Just a reminder that Quantum time-lock didn't exist back then when Alaya wasn't born yet. Moon Cell itself is much older (4.6 Billion BC) than the pruning process of human history. Quantum Time-Lock has a very limited range

I think we should first start from the beginnig - how do we start with finite and, by multiplication (by anything but infinity or similar) we get an infinity?

And also, Moon Cell doesn't exist in all ''Routes'', it only exists in non-Tsukihime worlds.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

If I choose to make a CRT in the future, I would like to quote your stance if that's ok with you? I think you've provided much needed insight.

I already said I don't particularly care how what I said is used. Really, there are already a number of issues with "higher dimensions" being treated as ontologically superior in nasuverse, which is a terrific joke, to say the least, but any attempt of mine to tackle that is for the far future if I ever have the time and the ability to give enough of a damn to try. Honestly, it goes a fair bit more in-depth than what I have here.

Just a reminder that Quantum time-lock didn't exist back then when Alaya wasn't born yet.

Alaya is the name of the Human side of the Counter Force, it is not the name of the Human Order.

And this point holds an absolutely non-existent level of importance. Some of the timelines that diverged away from Human History and subsequently ended culled go as far back as the time of Sefar's attack, when the Humans didn't have Primacy and the Human Order didn't exist. Why would you, then, assume that the influence of the Human Order and the Culling phenomenon on the time axis extends only as far as when Humans took control of the world?

But anyways in first don't know if this because we have different author but i never understood the limited energy in system solar part (In like what is the system solar you talk about? ) when we have thing like kama who is an infinite universe in one of these world inside the earth of the system solar, and we have Servant Universe which is a universe which is own Parralle World too

Mayhaps because Mara, if you ever even saw her event, was a nascent Beast that hadn't fully grown, which was the entire point of the event, because if she got detected while not at full strength she was ******* screwed?

There are a lot of other blatantly missed idiosyncrasies in the event which I also missed because I hadn't seen it, but your point is terrible. What the actual hell does it matter what character A or B does when talking about C, and C tells you that something isn't ******* possible, and we get blatantly shown it isn't ******* possible, and the entire cosmology of C which we have seen at work is the way it is because it isn't ******* possible?

Obviously, we ignore it because high tiers are more fun, but I'd hope you wouldn't mind me venting some of my frustration from irl matters here.

And now, I disappear again. Peace I guess.

 

[Tam0n3n]

If Alaya is the one responsible for culling up an infinite amount of timelines including past timelines, where she didn't even exist, then i think it's safe to call Alaya a 2-A Force according to VSB standards (not going into higher D stuff). Therefore anyone superior to Alaya should be at least 2-A too

2-A: Multiverse level+ Characters who are capable of significantly affecting[2], creating and/or destroying a countably infinite number of space-time continuums.

"Significantly affect" is here used as an umbrella term for feats that don't involve direct creation or destruction but are comparable to them in power, such as warping and distorting the entirety of the structure in question, sustaining its existence with one's own, merging the structure with another one, etc.

 

[QuasiYuri]

If Alaya is the one responsible for culling up an infinite amount of timelines including past timelines, where she didn't even exist, then i think it's safe to call Alaya a 2-A Force according to VSB standards (not going into higher D stuff). Therefore anyone superior to Alaya should be at least 2-A too

Alaya is Low 1-C iirc.