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Nasuverse transduality part 1. Transduality type 3 for 「 」

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Ubdon

He/Him
617
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It seems like last td3 nasu crt was a little confusing for non nasu supporters because of many religion/philosophy concepts so i try to explaine how verse treated them (at least taoism one).

Yin Yang are 0,1.

"The spiral of Yin and Yang. If you want this to live, you must kill it at once. If you wish to keep this, lose it at once. Blessings and loss are two sides of the same coin. Just like the relationship between a man and a woman."- Assassin Shiki skill description(Yin Yang)

"The coils of Yin and Yang. If you wish to learn this, discard this at once. If you wish to save this, forget this at once. Yearning and regret are two sides of the same coin. Just like life and death. Paradox Spiral"- Saber Shiki skill description(Yin Yang)

"It attempts to capture the essence of everything on a conceptual level: those that are active are defined as Yang (white), and the opposite are defined as Yin (black)."-Special Pamphlet - Encyclopedia: Taiji [Others], p.035

However both of them contain dot of opposite force inside (0 contain dot of 1, 1 contain dot of 0)

"Furthermore, there is a dot of Yin in Yang, and conversely a dot of Yang in Yin. This indicates that the distinction between Yin and Yang is not absolute. There is darkness even in light."-Special Pamphlet - Encyclopedia: Taiji [Others], p.035

So Yin treated as 0, 0+1 and Yang 1, 1+0, (yes 0+1 and 1+0 are different since they still separate and opposite to each other).

Now about Taiji.

Taiji is combine Yin and Yang.

"A philosophy originated in ancient China, a graphical representation of the Yin-Yang theory."
"The Taiji symbolizes opposing concepts such as day and night, light and darkness, male and female. At the same time, you may also call it a condensed version of the ever-changing, dynamic World."-Special Pamphlet - Encyclopedia: Taiji [Others], p.035

However it's also it's own concept that don't follow none of previous states (also here mention "Ryougi" this should be yin and yang)

"Taiji is the "one" at the beginning, the Yin and Yang that divide the "one" are called Liangyi (Ryougi)."-Special Pamphlet - Encyclopedia: Taiji [Others], p.035

"Scathach-Skadi: Unlike my Norse mythology, which viewed the world as born dualistic, other religions often had a defined concept of primordial chaos. Heaven and earth, warm and cold, good and evil, all united harmoniously. Therefore the primordial chaos is a grandmother of the world, which includes all possibilities... The Imaginary Number Space is a space that contains as many possibilities as it. I believe the primordial chaos contains all possibilities for it has everything mixed in it, while Imaginary Numbers contain all possibilities for they are unobservable. Thus, this is the inner side of our world, unobservable territory. A place not even detectable by the currently existing laws of physics. Meaning all possibilities can be hypothesized there."-Imaginary Scramble Chapter 1: Unknowable reef (1/6)

To futher explain this part here taiji definition from Wiki

"In Chinese philosophy, Taiji or Tai chi (simplified Chinese: 太极; traditional Chinese: 太極; pinyin: tàijí; lit. 'great pole') is a cosmological term for the "Supreme Ultimate" state of undifferentiated, absolute, and infinite potential, the oneness before duality, from which Yin and Yang originate. It can be compared with the old Wuji (无极; 無極; 'without ridgepole', meaning 'without limit')."

And "Primordial Chaos" compared to Wuji but that's in "Wuji Part"

Here also Shiki

"This was born of 「 」 and shall one day reach 「 」. Separate the two polarities circling the Four Symbols, and assemble the Eight Trigrams. Her existence is the manifestation of the world's principles. "Ryougi" refers to the yin-yang denoted by the taijitu. Her name comes from the "shiki" of mathematical expression ("suushiki") and the "shiki" of shikigami."-Saber Shiki skill(connection to the root)

And Hounouden Rokujyuyonshou (奉納殿六十四層, The 64 Layers of the Hounou Temple).

The building is a cylindrical ten story building with five rooms on the east and west sides. In order to create this bounded field, he collected 64 families and led them to 64 different types of death, symbolizing the 64 hexagrams. Eventually, this condensed into the eight trigrams, then the four phenomena, then the yin and yang (the Ryougi), creating an entirely new "world" separated from the world outside the bounded field. - chapter 5 kara no kyokai.

That have similarities with taiji I Ching definition.

"I Ching
Taiji also appears in the Xìcí 繫辭 "Appended Judgments" commentary to the I Ching, a late section traditionally attributed to Confucius but more likely dating to about the 3rd century B.C.E.[1]

Therefore there is in the Changes the Great Primal Beginning. This generates the two primary forces. The two primary forces generate the four images. The four images generate the eight trigrams. The eight trigrams determine good fortune and misfortune. Good fortune and misfortune create the great field of action. (tr. Wilhelm and Baynes 1967:318-9)

This sequence of powers of two includes Taiji → Yin-yang (two polarities) → Sixiang (Four Symbols) → Bagua (eight trigrams)."
Click to expand...

Also here mention "taijutu" so i also mention this one.

"Taijitu shuo

Zhou's Taijitu diagram The Song Dynasty philosopher Zhou Dunyi (1017-1073 CE) wrote the Taijitu shuo 太極圖說 "Explanation of the Diagram of the Supreme Ultimate", which became the cornerstone of Neo-Confucianist cosmology. His brief text synthesized aspects of Chinese Buddhism and Daoism with metaphysical discussions in the I ching.

Zhou's key terms Wuji and Taiji appear in the opening line 無極而太極, which Adler notes could also be translated "The Supreme Polarity that is Non-Polar!". Non-polar (wuji) and yet Supreme Polarity (taiji)! The Supreme Polarity in activity generates yang; yet at the limit of activity it is still. In stillness it generates yin; yet at the limit of stillness it is also active. Activity and stillness alternate; each is the basis of the other. In distinguishing yin and yang, the Two Modes are thereby established. The alternation and combination of yang and yin generate water, fire, wood, metal, and earth. With these five [phases of] qi harmoniously arranged, the Four Seasons proceed through them. The Five Phases are simply yin and yang; yin and yang are simply the Supreme Polarity; the Supreme Polarity is fundamentally Non-polar. [Yet] in the generation of the Five Phases, each one has its nature. (tr. Adler 1999:673-4)

Instead of usual Taiji translations "Supreme Ultimate" or "Supreme Pole", Adler uses "Supreme Polarity" (see Robinet 1990) because Zhu Xi describes it as the alternating principle of yin and yang, and ... insists that taiji is not a thing (hence "Supreme Pole" will not do). Thus, for both Zhou and Zhu, taiji is the yin-yang principle of bipolarity, which is the most fundamental ordering principle, the cosmic "first principle." Wuji as "non-polar" follows from this."
Click to expand...

This part would be a little harder since there no straightforward mention about wuji but i try explain as easy as it possible

"primordial chaos"/hundum.

"Scathach-Skadi: Unlike my Norse mythology, which viewed the world as born dualistic, other religions often had a defined concept of primordial chaos. Heaven and earth, warm and cold, good and evil, all united harmoniously. Therefore the primordial chaos is a grandmother of the world, which includes all possibilities... The Imaginary Number Space is a space that contains as many possibilities as it. I believe the primordial chaos contains all possibilities for it has everything mixed in it, while Imaginary Numbers contain all possibilities for they are unobservable. Thus, this is the inner side of our world, unobservable territory. A place not even detectable by the currently existing laws of physics. Meaning all possibilities can be hypothesized there." -imaginary scramble chapter 1 unknowable reef 16

Now after we make that INS=Taiji "primordial chaos" can be familiar with the Concept of Wuji or Hundum.

"In Chinese cosmology there was originally hun-tun, an undifferentiated luminous cloud, a void with no boundary, emptiness, a potential state. The hun-tun is sometimes considered a state of chaos in that is undivided, whole, a state where everything is mixed together. This potential, undifferentiated primordial state is also called Wu Ji. Wu Ji means literally “no limit” or “no polarity.” It is the “One,” "

Since Hundum explained as somehing opposite so probably neitheir yin nor yang and opposite to taiji yet also contain everything so maybe also yin,yang. ying and yang.

Also Root System based on Wuji.

"Infinity is not " ". in order to render infinity, one must define limits. Without limits, infinity does not exist. Infinity can observed because objects possess limits. Ryougi Shiki was immersed in infinity, but found the non-existent limit and severed it

"Of course, limits do not exist within infinity, thus one cannot sever something that does not exist. As a result, escaping from this prison is impossible.


However -- - without limits, infinity does not exist. Regardless if a finite wall existed, an limitless world is meaningless before Ryougi Shiki.


If there is no limit, then it is not infinity, but “ ”. If limits exist, then Rougi would find it and cut away everything."-knk chapter 5
Click to expand...

The purpose is to have the building form a taiji, a graphical representation of the Yin-Yang theory, and with Shiki, another Taiji placed inside the Taiji of the building, Araya would be able to reach the Root.-knk 5th chapter

However while hundum primordial chaos and imaginary number space being opposistion to each other while this Wuji free from that and superior state.

"As stated by law, emptiness is a territory of freedom.
Free from binary opposition, it is the heart that contemplates the world both as it should be and as it is.
The sky is distant, the colors pale.
A noble figure stands on an uncertain boundary, gazing at the whereabouts of the stars."-Shiki bond ce

So yin,yang both yin(that both yin and dot of yang) and yang(that both yang and dot of yin) nethier of this and precede and contain binary opposition(INS and Hundum) that govern them.

Yet even all of that just definition and root apophatic (indescribable) to all this.


「 」 [Others]

If you really wished to pronounce this term, call it "Kara".

Its meaning varied depending on each individual's understanding. To put it in simple terms, it was the Spiral of Origin.
However, since the Spiral of Origin was called the Spiral of Origin, it was no longer []. - Kara no Kyoukai Special Pamphlet - Encyclopedia: 「 」 [Others], p.028-029

"Umm…I heard about it in class. What was it…the Spiral of Origin?”

“Right. The Spiral of Origin, or more simply the Root. Sometimes it’s referred to as「 」, the thing for which there can be no reference. It is the source of everything, the ‘zero’ from which all matter and phenomena flow.(this part can be wuji or definition above that) Ah, but now that I’m trying to put it into words, I’m realizing that’s not a good idea. After all, even the idea of 'zero’ has baggage that makes it unsuitable as a comparison.”(something beyond even that -Lord El-Melloi II Case Files"

So it contain even ideas of this containing everything including logical system so all of this yet indescribable to all this so another state or states.


Summary:

Yin=0 and 0+1.

Yang=1 and 1+0.

"Ryougi"=Both Yin and Yang.

Taiji=All of this and it's own concept that precede them. INS have same description but if no one agree it can be the oneness that precede duality so 0, 1, 0+1, 1+0 the 1 that above all this

Primordial Chaos=Also contain all of them (aside from maybe taiji) yet also opposite to taiji. if INS not taiji and chaos not wuji then It's concept that opposite to Ins oneness

Wuji(Root)=All of this and Nothing of this.

「 」=Contain all of this defenition and trancsend them.

I guess that enough to give Swirl of the Root td 3.

Type 3 (Plurality): Characters that exist in a nondual state regarding all dual systems within the scope of an entire level of reality and qualitatively superior or immune to the effects caused within it. Furthermore, these characters exist beyond the classical states of contradiction-allowing logic on some level of existence. That is to say, for any statement A about them they are in a state that can't be described as A is true, A is false, A is simultanously true and false or A is neither true nor false. And so they must obey a many-valued logic with at least 5 truth states, and not be in any of the 4 combinations of true and false mentioned earlier.
 
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Well I'm not an expert but looking at the definition this seems pretty clear. You should consider getting this checked by someone who participated in the recent Transduality revision and have this evaluated
 
You don't extrapolate to what the actual religion say but just what is shown and stated on the series. Just because both use taoism it doesn't mean much if the verse doesnt explain within it.

I just taken a glance over it as im at work rn. Will read it fully later.
 
You don't extrapolate to what the actual religion say but just what is shown and stated on the series. Just because both use taoism it doesn't mean much if the verse doesnt explain within it.

I just taken a glance over it as im at work rn. Will read it fully later.
I mean i read definition of them and their description where pretty close if not word by word for some of them. But would glad to hear opinion of someone who know about it.
 
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You don't extrapolate to what the actual religion say but just what is shown and stated on the series. Just because both use taoism it doesn't mean much if the verse doesnt explain within it.

I just taken a glance over it as im at work rn. Will read it fully later.
But it use proof from the verse, i mean its encyclopedia from the verse not just some explanation from wikipedia or something outside the verse
 
Yeah i use wikipedia only to explain why "primordial chaos" here=hundum with adding statements from verse
For else i use this verse wiki since usually really hard to find those scans in english because author think that nasuverse is a little verse that didn't deverse being outside japanese and this wiki already was used as relible source for crt and reddit since it seems like no official translate for imaginary scrumble event (this on part of main story so canon one)
 
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For the Void Shiki part why it should be scaled I'll put it here
And so I realized that while I may not have the ability to thwart
the Deterrent and realize the path to the spiral of origin, I only need find
someone in the multitudes that can. I needed only one empty soul, whose
nature tied it back to the indescribable ‘ ’. It has taken me many years—”
“But you found her. And her name is Shiki Ryōgi.”
Tōko wonders briefly if
the Ryōgi dynasty even knew what the dangerous progeny of their lineage
implied and was truly capable of becoming.

-Kara no Kyoukai vol 2, page 162
That we know that Void Shiki is part of the Root and supported by scan above that it refers to the indescribable「 」
 
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For the Void Shiki part why it has to be scaled I'll put it here

That we know that Void Shiki is part of the Root and supported by scan above that it refers to the indescribable「 」
I mean those who scales to nasu td system(td or npi) aside from root (since i use it as truth state here) i was planning to add in part 2 but ok
 
I mean those who scales to nasu td system(td or npi) aside from root (since i use it as truth state here) i was planning to add in part 2 but ok
Ah you can put those who might have td or npi in another crt, but considering Void is similar to the root or「 」it should be done here i think
 
"In Chinese philosophy, Taiji or Tai chi (simplified Chinese: 太极; traditional Chinese: 太極; pinyin: tàijí; lit. 'great pole') is a cosmological term for the "Supreme Ultimate" state of undifferentiated, absolute, and infinite potential, the oneness before duality, from which Yin and Yang originate. It can be compared with the old Wuji (无极; 無極; 'without ridgepole', meaning 'without limit')."
Not usable. You can only use what's said in the series as each verse has its own description of Taoism and its concepts. You can only use what's stated there, whether descriptive or not, what each means.
"I Ching
Taiji also appears in the Xìcí 繫辭 "Appended Judgments" commentary to the I Ching, a late section traditionally attributed to Confucius but more likely dating to about the 3rd century B.C.E.[1]

Therefore there is in the Changes the Great Primal Beginning. This generates the two primary forces. The two primary forces generate the four images. The four images generate the eight trigrams. The eight trigrams determine good fortune and misfortune. Good fortune and misfortune create the great field of action. (tr. Wilhelm and Baynes 1967:318-9)

This sequence of powers of two includes Taiji → Yin-yang (two polarities) → Sixiang (Four Symbols) → Bagua (eight trigrams)."
"Taijitu shuo

Zhou's Taijitu diagram The Song Dynasty philosopher Zhou Dunyi (1017-1073 CE) wrote the Taijitu shuo 太極圖說 "Explanation of the Diagram of the Supreme Ultimate", which became the cornerstone of Neo-Confucianist cosmology. His brief text synthesized aspects of Chinese Buddhism and Daoism with metaphysical discussions in the I ching.

Zhou's key terms Wuji and Taiji appear in the opening line 無極而太極, which Adler notes could also be translated "The Supreme Polarity that is Non-Polar!". Non-polar (wuji) and yet Supreme Polarity (taiji)! The Supreme Polarity in activity generates yang; yet at the limit of activity it is still. In stillness it generates yin; yet at the limit of stillness it is also active. Activity and stillness alternate; each is the basis of the other. In distinguishing yin and yang, the Two Modes are thereby established. The alternation and combination of yang and yin generate water, fire, wood, metal, and earth. With these five [phases of] qi harmoniously arranged, the Four Seasons proceed through them. The Five Phases are simply yin and yang; yin and yang are simply the Supreme Polarity; the Supreme Polarity is fundamentally Non-polar. [Yet] in the generation of the Five Phases, each one has its nature. (tr. Adler 1999:673-4)

Instead of usual Taiji translations "Supreme Ultimate" or "Supreme Pole", Adler uses "Supreme Polarity" (see Robinet 1990) because Zhu Xi describes it as the alternating principle of yin and yang, and ... insists that taiji is not a thing (hence "Supreme Pole" will not do). Thus, for both Zhou and Zhu, taiji is the yin-yang principle of bipolarity, which is the most fundamental ordering principle, the cosmic "first principle." Wuji as "non-polar" follows from this."

Same as above. Just having similarities doesn't mean you can apply its concepts as otherwise most verses that have a connection with real religions could say the same for having 1 or more similarities.
"In Chinese cosmology there was originally hun-tun, an undifferentiated luminous cloud, a void with no boundary, emptiness, a potential state. The hun-tun is sometimes considered a state of chaos in that is undivided, whole, a state where everything is mixed together. This potential, undifferentiated primordial state is also called Wu Ji. Wu Ji means literally “no limit” or “no polarity.” It is the “One,” "

Hundun can also be a creature from mythology and not a state of being.

If you want to use the above quotes then they must be said/stated by the author, or be it in-verse stated somewhere said like this. If not then they forget about using them.

In the rest, the quotes can be used as they have the source within the verse.
 
Not usable. You can only use what's said in the series as each verse has its own description of Taoism and its concepts. You can only use what's stated there, whether descriptive or not, what each means.



Same as above. Just having similarities doesn't mean you can apply its concepts as otherwise most verses that have a connection with real religions could say the same for having 1 or more similarities.


Hundun can also be a creature from mythology and not a state of being.

If you want to use the above quotes then they must be said/stated by the author, or be it in-verse stated somewhere said like this. If not then they forget about using them.

In the rest, the quotes can be used as they have the source within the verse.
I mean in first i use because concept of taiji already exist in verse as i show in other scans and i use wiki only to explain why ins in verse can be treated as Taiji.


So need word by word? I mean it's almost like i ching in verse and the only arguable here is taijutu.

Ok well in this gods deities and creatures are also just concepts we just don't saw this one, but if you mean about wiki scan ok so it's wuji?

The verse explain why INS=Taiji and the wiki pages were only used only because the character didn't say it straighforward, also there is no direct statement of hundum, but we have "east primordial chaos" which has similarities to hundum/wuji and opposites to something that already exists as well-explained concept in the verses, so even without calling it hundum/wuji, it must still be a different state, but if you don't think INS=Taiji because there's no direct statement, fine it's still some weird truth state that different from previous one.

Ok thanks for ur input also want to ask if you think that without non dirrect stuff root still td3?

Ps: i edit that part in summary
 
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"Root/Wuji" should be higher than "all of this and nothing of this/silmutaneously true and false and neither true nor false." Cuz

Primordial chaos = simultaneously true and false

INS = neither true nor false

And above the Root there is 「 」
 
"Root/Wuji" should be higher than "all of this and nothing of this/silmutaneously true and false and neither true nor false." Cuz

Primordial chaos = simultaneously true and false

INS = neither true nor false

And above the Root there is 「 」
Don't know if this even upgrade to what i say but ok
 
Not usable. You can only use what's said in the series as each verse has its own description of Taoism and its concepts. You can only use what's stated there, whether descriptive or not, what each means.
.
The in verse tell the same thing that Taiji is the oness.

Kara no Kyoukai Special Pamphlet - Encyclopedia: Taiji [Others], p.035
Taiji [Others]
A philosophy originated in ancient China, a graphical representation of the Yin-Yang theory.
It attempts to capture the essence of everything on a conceptual level: those that are active are defined as Yang (white), and the opposite are defined as Yin (black).
The Taiji symbolizes opposing concepts such as day and night, light and darkness, male and female. At the same time, you may also call it a condensed version of the ever-changing, dynamic World.
Furthermore, there is a dot of Yin in Yang, and conversely a dot of Yang in Yin. This indicates that the distinction between Yin and Yang is not absolute. There is darkness even in light.
Taiji is the "one" at the beginning, the Yin and Yang that divide the "one" are called Liangyi (Ryougi).
 
The in verse tell the same thing that Taiji is the oness.

Kara no Kyoukai Special Pamphlet - Encyclopedia: Taiji [Others], p.035
Taiji [Others]
A philosophy originated in ancient China, a graphical representation of the Yin-Yang theory.
It attempts to capture the essence of everything on a conceptual level: those that are active are defined as Yang (white), and the opposite are defined as Yin (black).
The Taiji symbolizes opposing concepts such as day and night, light and darkness, male and female. At the same time, you may also call it a condensed version of the ever-changing, dynamic World.
Furthermore, there is a dot of Yin in Yang, and conversely a dot of Yang in Yin. This indicates that the distinction between Yin and Yang is not absolute. There is darkness even in light.
Taiji is the "one" at the beginning, the Yin and Yang that divide the "one" are called Liangyi (Ryougi).
this scan already here, if this not enough means that this not enough and we can't do much here, yet it also debunk nothing and just make INS and Primordial Chaos sounds weird in worst situatation
 
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Mhm, it is indeed TD type 3. I have read everything. It is straightforward, finally a person who even summarizes everything (listing truth states).
Since I asked people in discord, I still have questions, why was the first thread got rejected?

It is even higher than the baseline of TD type 3.
 
Mhm, it is indeed TD type 3. I have read everything. It is straightforward, finally a person who even summarizes everything (listing truth states).
Since I asked people in discord, I still have questions, why was the first thread got rejected?

It is even higher than the baseline of TD type 3.
It was rejected because it didn't mention most common parts so was harder to understand for non nasu supporters, here if you intrested
 
It was rejected because it didn't mention most common parts so was harder to understand for non nasu supporters, here if you intrested
Ohhh. It makes sense, welp this can't be disagreed, it looks unambiguous, but I would comment on one thing since if this gets accepted,
you need to link the raw/translated scans in the profile and not a link that goes to another fandom.
 
Ohhh. It makes sense, welp this can't be disagreed, it looks unambiguous, but I would comment on one thing since if this gets accepted,
you need to link the raw/translated scans in the profile and not a link that goes to another fandom.
Ok i try to find raws even if it's almost impossible for some of them
 
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