Nasuverse: possible big upgrade

[HyperZero95]

Hi, i was reading the Melty Blood manga and saw something that might be a potential upgrade for the verse. To get right to the point, we saw Sion surviving the moon being slammed into her at an extremely fast speed by Wallachia (taking the form of Arcueid), as all she had time to do before it hit was notice the moon was getting bigger and utter a few words.

Despite this, Sion is seriously injured, but survived.

Wallachia also seems to be entirely unharmed by that very attack.

Wallachia also states he can only draw out 30% of Arcueid’s total power, yet was still able to use this move and tank it

Sion despite taking this attack is not only alive, but able to get back up and fight.

Despite Wallachia's insane durability in Arcueid's body, Sion earlier on was capable of damaging him with her Etherlite.

Tohno scales above Sion, with him surviving blows and dishing out damage without MEoDP to a much stronger Sion than the one seen here, as she taps into her powers as a Dead Apostle.

First Tohno survives direct attacks from her and really only got hit in the first place since he didn’t want to fight back and didn’t expect Sion to turn on him.

Tohno then crushes Sion with a flurry of attacks without MEoDP since his eyes were closed, as he did not want to kill her.

So what do you think? Could this be a potential upgrade? It would apply to anyone who scales to Sion, Tohno and 30% Arcueid.

 

[Tdjwo]

Makes sense to me.

 

[HyperZero95]

Also, to further support this, Aoko in Mahoutsukai No Yoru destroyed Flat Snark, a sentient moon, with her ultimate attack. And that was Aoko as an apprentice still.

 

[HyperZero95]

@Paul_Frank , @CrimsonStarFallen ,@Regidian thoughts?

 

[Paul_Frank]

I don't remember the MB manga much so I don't have context, but based on the above, Shiki and Sion scaling to 30% Arc seems fine I guess? Feels a bit odd but it's certainly being shown there, despite Shiki being portrayed as relative to Tsukihime Arc (who is much weaker) during Tsukihime iirc.

As for scaling them to the moondrop, that I'm not sure about, it'd probably be an outlier. That's calced at like, 5-B. 5-B for 30% Arc, who is stated by WoG to just be like 4x servant level. The same 30% Arc that scales to Roa who scales to Dantes. There'd be a few people affected by such an upgrade and none of them are really at that level otherwise, including like, every servant and anyone who scales to them.

 

[HyperZero95]

I don't remember the MB manga much so I don't have context, but based on the above, Shiki and Sion scaling to 30% Arc seems fine I guess? Feels a bit odd but it's certainly being shown there, despite Shiki being portrayed as relative to Tsukihime Arc (who is much weaker) during Tsukihime iirc.

Tohno probably got stronger in MB. In the VN he states that he gets stronger the more he learns how he fights.

As for scaling them to the moondrop, that I'm not sure about, it'd probably be an outlier. That's calced at like, 5-B. 5-B for 30% Arc, who is stated by WoG to just be like 4x servant level.

Actually Nasu said that it was a non serious comparison:

Q: How strong are Servants?
Nasu: Well you see, attack power is about the same as one fighter. A fighter has way too much power for one person too stand up against, but to destroy one city they'll have to refuel many times. But what makes these guys dangerous is that since they're spiritual bodies, regular weapons won't work against them. As far as destructive power goes, there are more numerous powerful weapons among modern ones, but as normal weapons won't do a thing to them, they're among the most powerful. Anyway, just as fighters can load a nuclear warhead, they each have their own Noble Phantasms and among the Servants there are ones that have ridiculously powerful ones. That's why when I meant strength being the same as a fighter I thought it would be easier to image. Oh and, if I were to say it in a sort of non-serious way, they'd be 1/4th of Tsukihime's Arcueid I suppose? The strength of one I mean. Against one Servant, Arc would probably win, but against two, while Arc's having trouble against the one, the other could get behind her and nail her... maybe.

Sion said that True Ancestors makes the DAAs (who are equal to Servants) look like children in comparison, and that one attacking them is basically suicide. And Arcueid is the strongest among them.

There'd be a few people affected by such an upgrade and none of them are really at that level otherwise, including like, every servant and anyone who scales to them.

Well, that's why i said that it was a possible big upgrade. Plus like i said, Aoko was also able to destroy a sentient moon as an apprentice.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Tohno probably got stronger in MB. In the VN he states that he gets stronger the more he learns how he fights.

Possibly yeah, it does take place like a year later right, that's a fair point.

Actually Nasu said that it was a non serious comparison:

See, him saying it's non serious there is kinda odd to try and say it doesn't count. Considering it's used and backed up later for more comparisons, such as the one where he talks about her compatability with Gil, and how even without her authority boosting her stats, she has the combined stats of two servants at base, or when he does clarify he meant 30% and not 100%, etc

Sion said that True Ancestors makes the DAAs (who are equal to Servants) look like children in comparison, and that one attacking them is basically suicide. And Arcueid is the strongest among them.

Yeah but Arc here isn't at her full TA power, in fact she hasn't been since pre Roa, and isn't at full power again until after she sleeps post Tsukihime. This level for Arc is portrayed around the level of the stronger DAAs, Servants and combatants on those levels.

Well, that's why i said that it was a possible big upgrade. Plus like i said, Aoko was also able to destroy a sentient moon as an apprentice.

Yeah but I'm not sure Flat Snark is actually like, Moon sized, it seemed a bit smaller from what I remember. It's probably tier 1 anyway cause it's like, part of a god or something. Didn't Aoko also use her magic for that, like she did with Touko's primordial runes, or am I mistaken

 

[HyperZero95]

See, him saying it's non serious there is kinda odd to try and say it doesn't count. Considering it's used and backed up later for more comparisons, such as the one where he talks about her compatability with Gil, and how even without her authority boosting her stats, she has the combined stats of two servants at base, or when he does clarify he meant 30% and not 100%, etc

Nasu's comparison of Arcueid Vs. Servants wasn't a serious statement, as he even stated that he was comparing them in a non-serious manner. Said joke comment is contradicted by a serious comment saying that Servants are generally equal to Dead Apostle Ancestors, with Arcueid making them look like children according to Sion. As for Gil, i think that he didn't really meant that Gilgamesh would defeat 30% Arcueid, just that she is poorly equipped to fight people like him (and she is.) Same with the double stats thing. That was more of an explanation of how Gaia would work, Nasu just used Servants as an example. Aka how much more powerful would Arcueid be compared to her opponent. Basically 2x.

Yeah but Arc here isn't at her full TA power, in fact she hasn't been since pre Roa, and isn't at full power again until after she sleeps post Tsukihime. This level for Arc is portrayed around the level of the stronger DAAs, Servants and combatants on those levels.

Arcueid in Melty Blood is actually 50% Arcueid since she recovered the amount of power stolen by Roa, and it was even stated if i'm not mistaken.

Didn't Aoko also use her magic for that, like she did with Touko's primordial runes, or am I mistaken

No, she thought of using it but later refused due to the Red Shadow. So she simply applied more power on her ultimate attack.

 

[CrystalValley]

damn I got called to this thread? well this will be a nightmare most likely.

Possibly yeah, it does take place like a year later right, that's a fair point.

See, him saying it's non serious there is kinda odd to try and say it doesn't count. Considering it's used and backed up later for more comparisons, such as the one where he talks about her compatability with Gil, and how even without her authority boosting her stats, she has the combined stats of two servants at base, or when he does clarify he meant 30% and not 100%, etc

Yeah but Arc here isn't at her full TA power, in fact she hasn't been since pre Roa, and isn't at full power again until after she sleeps post Tsukihime. This level for Arc is portrayed around the level of the stronger DAAs, Servants and combatants on those levels.

Yeah but I'm not sure Flat Snark is actually like, Moon sized, it seemed a bit smaller from what I remember. It's probably tier 1 anyway cause it's like, part of a god or something. Didn't Aoko also use her magic for that, like she did with Touko's primordial runes, or am I mistaken

Nasu saying that things have been exaggerated in Melty Blood at most means it takes place in a different set of timelines that's a bit more extreme. even that is pushing things though. at the very least there should be separate profiles for their Melty Blood counterparts if you do not want to accept Tsukihime scaling to it.

Nasu's comparison of Arcueid and Servants was stated to be a non serious answer so it shouldn't be taken seriously. generally his Servant statements are all of the place and contradictory. he didn't include Types and many other characters under the interview question of "who can fight Servants", yet we all know they'd stomp Servant without question. it was a question he'd have to answer quickly and clearly didn't put much thought into it. also there are many iterations of Shiki Tohno even in the original Tsukihime VN with his power changing depending on the routes and how deeply he taps into the Nanaya Arts, so even if we take the statement of him not standing a chance against Servants at face value, it'd logically be one of his weaker versions, like him early on in Tsukihime when he struggled against two random dogs from Nrvnqsr. We also know he is a demon hunter from the strongest of the four clans, with him having high spiritual energy since he has pure eyes, which is proven when a shadow of his real self (White Len's Tatari version of him) was able to stomp Kouma in Act Cadenza without MEoDP in a physical fight and then stalemate him in Actress Again after Nanaya took damage and was hindered from a bunch of previous unknown fights. his MEoDP also hurts and kills people with mystery like Arcueid, and Sion states he can potentially kill concepts beyond human comprehension after he kills the Tatari's conceptual raw information.

we also know Shiki's eyes evolve over time, like how they went from being unable to permanently kill Nrvnqsr's beasts to doing so. so they've gotten far superior in Melty Blood. the reason I sent all of this is because Shiki in his stronger iterations can easily fight Servants (he can stomp them but I'm trying to be generous here. and he can clearly harm and kill beings with mystery, with or without MEoDP.

there's just many things wrong with that Servant comparison. it was a quick question Nasu was forced to answer quickly and is contradicted by in lore feats and statements from guide books. Prime Roa also wasn't included on that list since he isn't one of the 27 ancestors, yet we know he's the strongest vampire and has some things even suggesting he's above Crimson Moon, like being stated to be the strongest vampire and stomping Altrouge, who was someone who rivaled Crimson Moon since she would've been a potential host if not for being mentally unstable. though it should be noted I don't regard any Type as multiversal or scaling to CCC when I say this. i know this site doesn't care, but i just want people to know i'm not arguing for multiversal anything here, since the scaling chain falls apart in Tsukihime like that.

and even if we do take Servants being generally equally to DAAs, the DAAs we see are not normal ones, but consistently the strongest ones that are extreme anomalies far above normal DAAs like Nrvnqsr, Wallachia, Einnashe, etc.

maybe i'm going too into detail on a specific point, but i could actually go way further in depths to the problems with that Servant comparison and why it doesn't really negatively affect stronger versions of Shiki anyways.

TLDR: interview statements shouldn't be taken too seriously if they are heavily contradicted by more serious in lore feats and statements, or extra materials. even if we do take it though, like I said, it would not be referring to any stronger version of Tohno like his later Tsukihime route selves or his Melty Blood self.

Flat Snark should be moon sized unless there was evidence suggesting otherwise which there really isn't. and no Aoko did not use magic if by that you mean True Magic. she specifically decided not to actually.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Nasu's comparison of Arcueid Vs. Servants wasn't a serious statement, as he even stated that he was comparing them in a non-serious manner. Said joke comment is contradicted by a serious comment saying that Servants are generally equal to Dead Apostle Ancestors, with Arcueid making them look like children according to Sion. As for Gil, i think that he didn't really meant that Gilgamesh would defeat 30% Arcueid, just that she is poorly equipped to fight people like him (and she is.) Same with the double stats thing. That was more of an explanation of how Gaia would work, Nasu just used Servants as an example. Aka how much more powerful would Arcueid be compared to her opponent. Basically 2x.

He could win because of compatability not pure stats, yes. But no, the 2x stat example wasn't for Gaia. That was for before her boost, since her boost is supposed to be only slightly above the opponent's output, the statement was that her base stats are just 2x servants. Like I said, this among other comments from him later that reference the supposedly non serious comment shows that it probably wasn't as non serious as he said, i.e he could have been sarcastic saying it was non serious, or it became serious later on just via him using it more.

The children comparison for dead apostles to TA doesn't exactly hold up for a few reasons. Firstly, it's made by Sion as you said, but we see later in that exact scene that she just, wasn't correct. Arc couldn't do anything besides maintain the Marble Phantasm, Sion made the statement without actually knowing her power, and it's stated that Zepia's attack would have either killed or at least damaged her if Sion didnt stop it. In addition, we also have to remember that DAAs are somewhat relative to normal TAs, as we have things like Ortenrosse making a hunting party to go after some of them, the original DAAs breaking free in the first place, etc. They're not some inconceivable level of power above DAAs

Arcueid in Melty Blood is actually 50% Arcueid since she recovered the amount of power stolen by Roa, and it was even stated if i'm not mistaken.

Right, although 50% is still like, relative to pre Tsukihime, not a super huge leap above it iirc

No, she thought of using it but later refused due to the Red Shadow. So she simply applied more power on her ultimate attack.

Huh, nice

damn I got called to this thread? well this will be a nightmare most likely.

Nasu saying that things have been exaggerated in Melty Blood at most means it takes place in a different set of timelines that's a bit more extreme. even that is pushing things though. at the very least there should be separate profiles for their Melty Blood counterparts if you do not want to accept Tsukihime scaling to it.

Nasu's comparison of Arcueid and Servants was stated to be a non serious answer so it shouldn't be taken seriously.

Except as I've said, even if you try to say it was non serious, it wasn't the last time it was brought up, and he never went "no that wasn't serious" again, so after the point of that first comment, it sort of did become serious, as it became the basis for a few of his later answers.

generally his Servant statements are all of the place and contradictory. he didn't include Types and many other characters under the interview question of "who can fight Servants", yet we all know they'd stomp Servant without question.

Yes, that's why the entire list is people who he thinks can fight against them, not one shot them. In a separate question (the DAA vs Servants one) he specifically mentions ORT can't even be harmed, so he evidently did think of these stronger people, and didn't include them for a reason.

it was a question he'd have to answer quickly and clearly didn't put much thought into it.

He had enough time over the years to change it however, but he did not, in fact he's doubled down on it multiple times, the Arc servant comparisons

there's just many things wrong with that Servant comparison. it was a quick question Nasu was forced to answer quickly and is contradicted by in lore feats and statements from guide books.

Except as I said above, the idea of him being forced to answer quickly only works if it was one off, not a thing brought up multiple times over the years. It's not entirely contradicted by much either, MEoDP doesn't matter at all to a stats comparison, so I'm not sure why it was even brought up, the closest thing to contradicting it really is Nanaya>=Kouma, with Kouma being relative to servants via being a Mystery, but even that doesn't really contradict the idea of servants being relative to Arc at all.

Prime Roa also wasn't included on that list since he isn't one of the 27 ancestors, yet we know he's the strongest vampire and has some things even suggesting he's above Crimson Moon, like being stated to be the strongest vampire and stomping Altrouge, who was someone who rivaled Crimson Moon since she would've been a potential host if not for being mentally unstable. though it should be noted I don't regard any Type as multiversal or scaling to CCC when I say this. i know this site doesn't care, but i just want people to know i'm not arguing for multiversal anything here, since the scaling chain falls apart in Tsukihime like that.

Same as above, the list was evidently who could fight against them, not who could stomp them, given Nasu in a separate comment addresses Primate Murder and ORT, pointing out why they'd demolish the servant side in a DAA vs servant fight

and even if we do take Servants being generally equally to DAAs, the DAAs we see are not normal ones, but consistently the strongest ones that are extreme anomalies far above normal DAAs like Nrvnqsr, Wallachia, Einnashe, etc.

maybe i'm going too into detail on a specific point, but i could actually go way further in depths to the problems with that Servant comparison and why it doesn't really negatively affect stronger versions of Shiki anyways.

TLDR: interview statements shouldn't be taken too seriously if they are heavily contradicted by more serious in lore feats and statements, or extra materials. even if we do take it though, like I said, it would not be referring to any stronger version of Tohno like his later Tsukihime route selves or his Melty Blood self.

Interview statements should be taken seriously if not contradicted though, which it isn't, and it's a consistent sentiment from Nasu, not even a one off comparison. The statement being talked about isn't Shiki being unable to fight servants or something, it's 30% Arc being as strong as four servants or having the base stats of two combined before her authority boosts her. Which makes everyone relative to, or stronger than 30% Arc being 5-B a massive outlier.

Flat Snark should be moon sized unless there was evidence suggesting otherwise which there really isn't. and no Aoko did not use magic if by that you mean True Magic. she specifically decided not to actually.

It just like, visibly isn't, it's also not ever stated to be that size afaik. It's the "oil of the moon" and if you look at the images of it, it's pretty small in all honesty. It additionally fits in a single vial, you'd have to prove that not only is it the size of the moon, but it has the same structure as it as well given that


Additionally for more reasons making everyone 5-B is iffy, even if you ignore the Arc servant comparisons (no reason to but still) you run into another snag that scales them to servants. Base Ciel is just stronger than MB Shiki and Sion, this is outright shown when she stomps both of them until Sion amps Shiki, and Ciel just decides it isn't worth her time anymore.

Powered Ciel>Base Ciel

Kirei can fight Ciel with mantra boosts, that same Kirei can also fight (note it wasn't "obliterate in one hit", it was fight) True Assassin. So servants scale that way too, even disregarding the Arc statements.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

I'm fine with the scaling to 30% Arc, but scaling them to the Moon Drop is a meme lol, not only because it's tier 1 now, but because that one didn't even destroy the mountain it hit, so it clearly isn't Arc's actual power.

 

[CrystalValley]

@Paul_Frank Yes, that's why the entire list is people who he thinks can fight against them, not one shot them. In a separate question (the DAA vs Servants one) he specifically mentions ORT can't even be harmed, so he evidently did think of these stronger people, and didn't include them for a reason.

it didn't make that distinction. and it also excluded characters like Forte who is equal to the Burial Agency, who can supposedly fight Servants (though in Tsukihime lore they seem to be far stronger than this would suggest), who Satsujinki (Shiki Tohno) defeated instantly without even having to harm her. and clearly multiple incarnations of Roa can fight Servants, including him as SHIKI Tohno since he can fight Len and quite a few others, yet he was not included in the list because he isn't apart of the 27 ancestors. it also doesn't include Alice Kuonji who can summon Flat Snark and has magecraft close to True Magic or Soujuurou, either the one who fought Beowulf or his prime self. it's clear this statement is shaky and shouldn't be taken at face value. fortunately for Servants, there is another statement besides that bad comparison saying they can fight DAAs but like i said before, the ones we've seen have consistently been the best of the best and extreme anomalies who can fight Arcueid, who is above all True Ancestors who are generally far above the average Dead Apostle Ancestor.

He had enough time over the years to change it however, but he did not, in fact he's doubled down on it multiple times, the Arc servant comparisons

the comparison to Gilgamesh was just demonstrating how she is bad in terms of compatability, which she is. her ultimate one comparison was just a demonstration of how it works and Servants were used as a hypothetical. if you want to use Servants being compared to DAAs, comparing them to True Ancestors let alone any Arcueid that isn't the half dead one just cannot happen.

Interview statements should be taken seriously if not contradicted though, which it isn't,

the average DAA can fight against Servants, while True Ancestors are generally far above most DAAs, with Arcueid stomping one's that have succumb to their bloodlust making them far power powerful (demon lords).

Soujuurou was stated to be the strongest Type-Moon protagonist yet he was not included on the list, even though he has been apart of the canon since 1996.

no version of Roa was included in that list.

no version of Akiha was included in that last, even though weaker versions of her can beat 50% Arcueid and Kouma in Melty Blood, ignoring her insane power in the original Kohaku Route where she's above full power Arcueid (not Archetype for clarification).

Forte was not included in this list even though Burial Agency members according to other Nasu statements can fight Servants easily and she is on their level.

Alice Kuonji isn't on this list.

Sion is not on the list despite being able to fight against Melty Blood Arcueid and Wallachia.

Riesbyfe isn't on the list, who can fight DAAs.

and i'm only trying to go under the assumption that he wasn't including people who stomp them. otherwise this gets into crazy territory, like Nanaya not being included despite being above the entire cast of Tsukihime aside from Archetype due to his speed alone and a weaker version of him (White Len Tatari) killed someone on the list (Kouma).

Void's defensive statement was also contradicted by another statement where she's the second strongest in the franchise (presumably behind Archetype Arc since Actress Again seems to imply that), putting her above many characters that would stomp Servants. there's arguments that it wasn't counting Void using her powers, but that's speculation. you guys scaled her to Akasha despite what that Servant comparison said (which i'm totally behind. so good job). i'm just pointing out how even you guys don't really properly follow any of this.

this can go on and on.

It just like, visibly isn't

it's far away in the same manner as the moon. i don't really get how this matters. besides, Aoko's feat isn't the big deal here. Wallachia's moon feat is against Sion.

It's the "oil of the moon" and if you look at the images of it, it's pretty small in all honesty.

if we go by its descriptions, it was also called the "fifth-dimensional plane" directly, and you and me both know it isn't multiversal. so i don't think weird vague titles like that really matter much.

Base Ciel is just stronger than MB Shiki and Sion, this is outright shown when she stomps both of them until Sion amps Shiki, and Ciel just decides it isn't worth her time anymore.

that would just mean she got stronger since MB takes place after Tsukihime. Tohno also generally doesn't tap into his Nanaya Arts unless it's a fight to the death, so i don't really see the problem here. hell, he stalemated Ciel when he was injured prior in the Akiha Route when he did think she was trying to kill him. and his Akiha Route self is generally pretty weaker than him from the other routes.

Kirei can fight Ciel with mantra boosts, that same Kirei can also fight (note it wasn't "obliterate in one hit", it was fight) True Assassin. So servants scale that way too, even disregarding the Arc statements.

at the very best, that would mean Kirei can fight Tsukihime Ciel, even if we pretend like that isn't contradicted. also Zero Kirei with his command seals during the Kiritsugu fight was the one being compared to Ciel, who is well above the one that fought TA, who already has really high stats for a Servant.

 

[CrystalValley]

I'm fine with the scaling to 30% Arc, but scaling them to the Moon Drop is a meme lol, not only because it's tier 1 now, but because that one didn't even destroy the mountain it hit, so it clearly isn't Arc's actual power.

that comes from the inaccurate reasoning of scaling the rest of Nasuverse to Extra, even though clearly Crimson Moon and no one else is multiversal in Tsukihime aside from Archetype. regardless, you guys don't rate 30% Arc as multiversal, so this moon feat wouldn't be multiversal even by your standards.

the size of that reality marble is unknown and so is that piece of land. also we don't know how much of the land it destroyed because the rest of the fight took place down in the depths of the castle, which has an unknown depth.

wallachia clearly states he's drawing out 30% of Arcueid's power and could preform that feat with it.

 

[Paul_Frank]

the size of that reality marble is unknown and so is that piece of land. also we don't know how much of the land it destroyed because the rest of the fight took place down in the depths of the castle, which has an unknown depth.

We see a shot of it hitting and breaking apart, and can see its not consistent with the results of the KE it should have if it was the same as Arc's. We also can see the area Sion was fighting at pre moon hit from where Shiki was it wasn't some absurd depth down.

it didn't make that distinction.

It didn't have to because it was blatantly obvious especially when you look at reasoning he gave for people like ORT on other lists, like I said. Everyone in the list of people that can fight Servants are ones he thinks will have a fairish fight, this is obvious by simply seeing who is and isn't there, and the fact that he does things like mention "one on one with an average NP" or "X can have a defensive fight, but it's still a fight" it's clear he didn't list the people who stomp.

and it also excluded characters like Forte who is equal to the Burial Agency, who can supposedly fight Servants (though in Tsukihime lore they seem to be far stronger than this would suggest), who Satsujinki (Shiki Tohno) defeated instantly without even having to harm her.

Forte isn't equal to the Burial Agency via anything but her own thoughts. The thoughts of Magus on their own ability vs a competitor isn't a very good indicator of strength kek

and clearly multiple incarnations of Roa can fight Servants, including him as SHIKI Tohno since he can fight Len and quite a few others, yet he was not included in the list because he isn't apart of the 27 ancestors. it also doesn't include Alice Kuonji who can summon Flat Snark and has magecraft close to True Magic or Soujuurou, either the one who fought Beowulf or his prime self.

This and the above has a pretty simple explanation though. And it's uhh
Nasu didn't want to sit down and pick each and every character in the series who can fight Servants. The list of people who can beat Servants not including everyone who can fight them, or stomp them, has no correlation to other interviews suddenly not counting in any case.

it's clear this statement is shaky and shouldn't be taken at face value. fortunately for Servants, there is another statement besides that bad comparison saying they can fight DAAs but like i said before, the ones we've seen have consistently been the best of the best and extreme anomalies who can fight Arcueid, who is above all True Ancestors who are generally far above the average Dead Apostle Ancestor.


the comparison to Gilgamesh was just demonstrating how she is bad in terms of compatability, which she is. her ultimate one comparison was just a demonstration of how it works and Servants were used as a hypothetical. if you want to use Servants being compared to DAAs, comparing them to True Ancestors let alone any Arcueid that isn't the half dead one just cannot happen.


the average DAA can fight against Servants, while True Ancestors are generally far above most DAAs, with Arcueid stomping one's that have succumb to their bloodlust making them far power powerful (demon lords).

Nothing said here at all supports what you're saying though?

You start off saying the interview(s) shouldn't be used because it didn't include everyone ever, and then use that to segue into how "we haven't seen average ones, we've just seen stronger ones" Which not only isn't entirely true, but is completely irrelevant since the statements were never "Servants can fight the average DAA" it was that Servants could generally compete against most of the DAA

Soujuurou was stated to be the strongest Type-Moon protagonist yet he was not included on the list, even though he has been apart of the canon since 1996.

no version of Roa was included in that list.

no version of Akiha was included in that last, even though weaker versions of her can beat 50% Arcueid and Kouma in Melty Blood, ignoring her insane power in the original Kohaku Route where she's above full power Arcueid (not Archetype for clarification).

Forte was not included in this list even though Burial Agency members according to other Nasu statements can fight Servants easily and she is on their level.

Alice Kuonji isn't on this list.

Sion is not on the list despite being able to fight against Melty Blood Arcueid and Wallachia.

Riesbyfe isn't on the list, who can fight DAAs.

and i'm only trying to go under the assumption that he wasn't including people who stomp them. otherwise this gets into crazy territory, like Nanaya not being included despite being above the entire cast of Tsukihime aside from Archetype due to his speed alone and a weaker version of him (White Len Tatari) killed someone on the list (Kouma).

Again, not only was it for fair fights, but it's crazy to try to assume he'd list so many people when giving an answer in a multi question interview.
"Who can fight Servants? Well sit down and let me list them for 30 minutes"
Him not doing that in no way invalidates interviews lol, it's like, genuinely insane to think it would.

Void's defensive statement was also contradicted by another statement where she's the second strongest in the franchise (presumably behind Archetype Arc since Actress Again seems to imply that), putting her above many characters that would stomp Servants. there's arguments that it wasn't counting Void using her powers, but that's speculation. you guys scaled her to Akasha despite what that Servant comparison said (which i'm totally behind. so good job). i'm just pointing out how even you guys don't really properly follow any of this.

See ignoring all the other inaccurate stuff said here, the statement never said Void Shiki. It said 3rd personality. And given all we know with statements and feats, it's likely not referring to Void, but her post coma self, specifically with a katana.

Post coma she's described multiple times to be different, since she's no longer Shiki or SHIKI, she's a fusion in a way, Shiki who is adopting parts of SHIKI, in the Araya fight he also notes that when she has a katana, that's her true self because of suggestion, i.e, not the same personality in a sense. With the feats and scaling and such, it's more likely he meant that than Void, but I digress

it's far away in the same manner as the moon. i don't really get how this matters. besides, Aoko's feat isn't the big deal here. Wallachia's moon feat is against Sion.

I mean, you're the one who said it is a full sized moon, and this would be the only thing that supports a tier 5 rating for Arc, Aoko and whoever scales, so it is decently important if you're trying to say it's not an outlier. It being far away doesn't help prove its moon sized and has the structure of the Moon, given it like, you know, comes in a vial
As a liquid

if we go by its descriptions, it was also called the "fifth-dimensional plane" directly, and you and me both know it isn't multiversal. so i don't think weird vague titles like that really matter much.

I mean, it unironically probably is, but that's besides the point, the point is that stuff like this goes against it being a full fledged moon she busted, which is important for the reason I said above

that would just mean she got stronger since MB takes place after Tsukihime. Tohno also generally doesn't tap into his Nanaya Arts unless it's a fight to the death, so i don't really see the problem here. hell, he stalemated Ciel when he was injured prior in the Akiha Route when he did think she was trying to kill him. and his Akiha Route self is generally pretty weaker than him from the other routes.

There's no reason to assume she got stronger after losing the Roa stuff, in fact she'd logically get weaker or at best be the same, the only time she's actually said to be stronger is as Powered Ciel, no one ever even comments on it saying she's stronger, nothing implies it, etc.

Tohno not tapping into the Nanaya arts wouldn't matter because the one this thread is trying to scale didn't either, that was base Shiki, no eyes, tanking hits from Sion and then cutting her. This same base Shiki got stomped while 2v1ing Ciel, and needed an amp to get her to decide to leave

at the very best, that would mean Kirei can fight Tsukihime Ciel, even if we pretend like that isn't contradicted. also Zero Kirei with his command seals during the Kiritsugu fight was the one being compared to Ciel, who is well above the one that fought TA, who already has really high stats for a Servant.

It's not really contradicted no. And yes, Zero Kirei was being used because, and I quote "Kirei's prowess in "Zero" was rooted in the sheer number of Command Spells at his disposal as much as it was in his obsession with Kiritsugu." However this doesn't really help servants not scale, because if you remember the Einzbern Consultation Room, it's stated that servant good at h2h (basically not Assassins or Casters) would still beat this prime Kirei who can fight Ciel, and Kiritsugu, who'd scale to him too.

There are so many avenues that Servants would scale through, its very consistent, which makes 5-B very inconsistent. Especially given what Crimson said about this Moon drop anyway, since I'm pretty sure KE calcs also have to show a similar level of destruction to the calced result to even be used.

 

[CrystalValley]

We see a shot of it hitting and breaking apart, and can see its not consistent with the results of the KE it should have if it was the same as Arc's. We also can see the area Sion was fighting at pre moon hit from where Shiki was it wasn't some absurd depth down.

we saw the room in the castle Sion was fighting in and that's it. and even then we know that the attack per lore is creating a mirror image of the moon. just because it's not drawn to perfect size doesn't disprove what it's supposed to be in the lore, especially since the moon is randomly drawn to be hundreds of times bigger than ours randomly in the manga during dramatic scenes.

It didn't have to because it was blatantly obvious especially when you look at reasoning he gave for people like ORT on other lists, like I said. Everyone in the list of people that can fight Servants are ones he thinks will have a fairish fight, this is obvious by simply seeing who is and isn't there, and the fact that he does things like mention "one on one with an average NP" or "X can have a defensive fight, but it's still a fight" it's clear he didn't list the people who stomp.

he listed people who would stomp logically and i've already went over the flaws of it even with this in mind.

Forte isn't equal to the Burial Agency via anything but her own thoughts. The thoughts of Magus on their own ability vs a competitor isn't a very good indicator of strength kek

the narration states it. "The one that forced her, a swordsman as well as a mage, who could stand her ground even against the dogs of the Burial Agency, into defeat."

This and the above has a pretty simple explanation though. And it's uhh
Nasu didn't want to sit down and pick each and every character in the series who can fight Servants.

exactly, even though the question was asking who could fight Servants besides Arc. clearly he didn't answer it properly. and as i said before, his other statements that are actually serious or not example comparisons of abilities or compatability have Servants at the level of the majority of DAAs. we've only seen the best of the best DAAs in Tsukihime that are way above normal ones and can fight Arcueid, who can stomp Demon Lords who are above normal True Ancestors who can stomp most DAAs like nothing and by extension Servants.

Nothing said here at all supports what you're saying though?

You start off saying the interview(s) shouldn't be used because it didn't include everyone ever, and then use that to segue into how "we haven't seen average ones, we've just seen stronger ones" Which not only isn't entirely true, but is completely irrelevant since the statements were never "Servants can fight the average DAA" it was that Servants could generally compete against most of the DAA

him not mentioning everyone was an example of how he had to answer a question on the spot that would include a lot of people and factors, so it obviously wouldn't be completely accurate. you guys even now have Ryougi at stomping top-tier DAAs like Nrvnqsr while ignoring the statement saying she stands no chance against Servants. so i don't get the double standards here.

and yes, we have only seen the best of the best DAA in the Tsukihime franchise. and Servants being able to fight "most" DAA means there are ones completely out of their league.

Again, not only was it for fair fights, but it's crazy to try to assume he'd list so many people when giving an answer in a multi question interview.
"Who can fight Servants? Well sit down and let me list them for 30 minutes"

which is why it's not a well thought out explanation and is contradicted as well.

no offense to you, but what's with the double standards regarding this Servant comparison? you guys have Void at 1-A because mountains of evidence including another interview statement contradicting the Servant comparison was made. you have Ryougi at beyond Servant level according to her new profile. and Nanaya while low balled still is way above even that with his profile mentioning that he toys with 50% Arcueid to the point she was forced to bring out Archetype. the same profile even mentions him stalemating Kouma while injured without MEoDP. all of these go against that interview statement but only now there's a problem? seems pretty arbitrary not gonna lie.

See ignoring all the other inaccurate stuff said here, the statement never said Void Shiki. It said 3rd personality. And given all we know with statements and feats, it's likely not referring to Void, but her post coma self, specifically with a katana.

i've seen translations refer to it as "Ryougi Shiki" which is referring to Void, but i'll leave it be. that still leaves contradictions with what i mentioned above that your own website acknowledges with them ignoring the interview statement due to contradictions.

I mean, you're the one who said it is a full sized moon, and this would be the only thing that supports a tier 5 rating for Arc, Aoko and whoever scales, so it is decently important if you're trying to say it's not an outlier. It being far away doesn't help prove its moon sized and has the structure of the Moon, given it like, you know, comes in a vial
As a liquid

the main feat is Sion tanking the moon slamming feat not Aoko's feat. and by your logic that moon is liquid level. this is clearly supernatural and saying it comes from liquid in a vial is like saying Soujuurou is bug level because Alice shrunk him and sealed him in a tiny vial.

I mean, it unironically probably is

...

There's no reason to assume she got stronger after losing the Roa stuff, in fact she'd logically get weaker or at best be the same, the only time she's actually said to be stronger is as Powered Ciel, no one ever even comments on it saying she's stronger, nothing implies it, etc.

her feats show it. Ciel could only stalemate an injured Tohno in the Akiha Route and got blown away quickly by a weakened Arcueid. now she is superior to someone who can hang with a casual Melty Blood Arcueid aka Sion. she didn't lose anything after Roa's death besides the time reversal regeneration.

Tohno not tapping into the Nanaya arts wouldn't matter because the one this thread is trying to scale didn't either, that was base Shiki, no eyes, tanking hits from Sion and then cutting her. This same base Shiki got stomped while 2v1ing Ciel, and needed an amp to get her to decide to leave

i think you're confused. Tohno tapping into his Nanaya Arts does not always make him swap personalities to Nanaya himself. it just means he's tapping into the instincts more and how much he taps into them seems to determine how powerful fast and skilled he is. and no, Tohno did not get stomped while fighting Melty Blood Ciel. she was pushing them back, but only Sion was the one that was really struggling.

It's not really contradicted no. And yes, Zero Kirei was being used because, and I quote "Kirei's prowess in "Zero" was rooted in the sheer number of Command Spells at his disposal as much as it was in his obsession with Kiritsugu."

i just said Zero Kirei was being used, so I don't know why you're trying to prove this to me. we agree.

However this doesn't really help servants not scale, because if you remember the Einzbern Consultation Room, it's stated that servant good at h2h (basically not Assassins or Casters) would still beat this prime Kirei who can fight Ciel, and Kiritsugu, who'd scale to him too.

i already addressed how this would be referring to Tsukihime Ciel, who is weaker than Melty Blood Ciel going off direct feats.

There are so many avenues that Servants would scale through, its very consistent, which makes 5-B very inconsistent. Especially given what Crimson said about this Moon drop anyway, since I'm pretty sure KE calcs also have to show a similar level of destruction to the calced result to even be used.

not really. Servant feats are consistently lower than what even this website presents and from a lore perspective, can only fight most DAAs according to two interview statements apparently, which are fodder to True Ancestors, who are weaker than Demon Lords since those are True Ancestors not restricting their bloodlust and power, who get stomped all the time by 30% Arcueid alone, who top-tier DAAs can fight or beat.

also i'm not arguing for 5-B and i don't think the OP is either. getting slammed by a moon doesn't make you moon level automatically. multi-continental i'd assume is more in the ballpark since that seems to line up with a weaker Tatari manifestation of Nanaya killed Nrvnqsr physically without MEoDP, with 510 of his lives alone requiring the power to destroy a continent, let alone all 666 or the 999th Beast. so id assume the moon feat is probably around this tier. we know by lore though its a mirror replica of the moon. edit: i just realized OP didn't even mention this. lol

as for the calcs, that's not my domain. i've heard DB fans argue for stuff though like planets not being drawn to scale and still debating things. i don't know though. i'm not really active on this website and was only called to this thread so you'd know about that stuff way more than me in terms of the rules here.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

the size of that reality marble is unknown and so is that piece of land. also we don't know how much of the land it destroyed because the rest of the fight took place down in the depths of the castle, which has an unknown depth.

No, you can't make an assumption that the mountain the moon crashes into is planet sized, or say that they were just send into thousands of kilometers down into the abyss when they were clearly not.

Given this is 30% Arc, it's way more likely her moon drop is just weaker and clearly not 5-B.

 

[CrystalValley]

No, you can't make an assumption that the mountain the moon crashes into is planet sized, or say that they were just send into thousands of kilometers down into the abyss when they were clearly not.

Given this is 30% Arc, it's way more likely her moon drop is just weaker and clearly not 5-B.

we know by the lore that it is a replica of the moon in the same manner Crimson Moon's is. even if you want to say it wouldn't be fully sized since Arcueid isn't at full power, 30% Arcueid is only 70% behind Crimson Moon in power meaning the moon should be in the same general size league.

when they were clearly not.

proof?

also no one said this feat would be 5-B.

 

[HyperZero95]

So?

 

[HyperZero95]

Allright, so i guess this won't be accepted. But what about Tohno and Sion scaling to 30% Arc?