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Nasuverse: Noble Phantasm Revisions
- Thread starter DemonGodMitchAubin
- Start date
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Personnaly i don't have so many prob with the 2-A nasuverse since from what i have see from fate extra series is that world pruned by quantum time lock are world that have get their timeline/possibilities pruned and get locked to one futur, so the other have still all of their possibilities/time line.
The dimmension thing is that it's limited and can't allow proliferation of parrallle world (because some of the possibilities/time line of world can become themself world that create other possibilities when get too divergeant) so it cut possibilities of world that are unecessary.
So we have world that are like single universe since get locked to one time line and other world that are "multiverse" with many time line/possibility, it's why we see many time the infinity possibility in fate since even tough we have a limited number of worlds , we can have a infinity number of possibilities
At last it's what i have understand with that (first part talk about proper human world, last talk about pruned world)
"Earth scientists have hypothesized the so-called 'parallel worlds,' other versions of Earth and its surroundings, expanding indefinitely like mirrored reflections. If true, that would mean that Earth has not only one future, but many. In other words ..."
"Think of it like this. The 'you' that you are aware of exists somewhere upon this timeline."
"It might sound unreal. Humans aren't equipped to perceive, let alone traverse, the 'wall between worlds.' But what if I put it another way? Think of these parallel worlds as other possibilities."
"Imagine what might have been in your life. Think of the connections that were cut off and thrown away. Options you see now, in retrospect, that yu would never have considered at the time. Picture how your life today might be different had those 'what ifs' come to pass. All those variant futures, in everyone's lives, make up the vast array of parallel worlds."
"Your actions, those of the 'you' in this present moment on this particular timeline, can change the world in any number of ways. That proves such possibilities are alive, and that your world exists on the 'proper axis.'"
"Conversely, a world where the future cannot be changed, regardless of your choices, can have no parallel worlds. Such a world is nothing but a dead end, solitary and singular, with a past as immutable as its future."
The dimmension thing is that it's limited and can't allow proliferation of parrallle world (because some of the possibilities/time line of world can become themself world that create other possibilities when get too divergeant) so it cut possibilities of world that are unecessary.
So we have world that are like single universe since get locked to one time line and other world that are "multiverse" with many time line/possibility, it's why we see many time the infinity possibility in fate since even tough we have a limited number of worlds , we can have a infinity number of possibilities
At last it's what i have understand with that (first part talk about proper human world, last talk about pruned world)
"Earth scientists have hypothesized the so-called 'parallel worlds,' other versions of Earth and its surroundings, expanding indefinitely like mirrored reflections. If true, that would mean that Earth has not only one future, but many. In other words ..."
"Think of it like this. The 'you' that you are aware of exists somewhere upon this timeline."
"It might sound unreal. Humans aren't equipped to perceive, let alone traverse, the 'wall between worlds.' But what if I put it another way? Think of these parallel worlds as other possibilities."
"Imagine what might have been in your life. Think of the connections that were cut off and thrown away. Options you see now, in retrospect, that yu would never have considered at the time. Picture how your life today might be different had those 'what ifs' come to pass. All those variant futures, in everyone's lives, make up the vast array of parallel worlds."
"Your actions, those of the 'you' in this present moment on this particular timeline, can change the world in any number of ways. That proves such possibilities are alive, and that your world exists on the 'proper axis.'"
"Conversely, a world where the future cannot be changed, regardless of your choices, can have no parallel worlds. Such a world is nothing but a dead end, solitary and singular, with a past as immutable as its future."
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No, that's wrong.
It's just too much text to quote here, but the links:
Compiled Events and Pruned Events | TMdict
Quantum Timelock | TMdict
No. ''Parallel worlds'' are like one timeline, Quantum Time-Locks apply to all timelines and ''parallel worlds'' are the time lines themselves, how could they contain time lines? And it makes little sense calling it multiverse, given the sum of all timelines is what constitutes the Universe/a Universe of Fate.
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Let's not turn this into a 2-A thread lol unless it's NP related
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Considering all the issues I've seen with Extella's translation... I would genuinely much prefer seeing the direct Japanese, to be frank.
And yes, this is about the NPs. My only point was concerning Kavacha and Kundala 2-A endurance being nonsense, and scaling Sefar VS to 2-A off of Sefar is an exercise in futiliy. At most, I would scale it to any of the Olympian Gods since they are, well, Gods.
Zeus being the exemption.
And yes, this is about the NPs. My only point was concerning Kavacha and Kundala 2-A endurance being nonsense, and scaling Sefar VS to 2-A off of Sefar is an exercise in futiliy. At most, I would scale it to any of the Olympian Gods since they are, well, Gods.
Zeus being the exemption.
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If you guys desire it strongly enough. I could compile the arguments for the arguments of the "Against the 2-A" and make a thread. with that information.
But i'll only be a messenger lol
But i'll only be a messenger lol
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Avicebron I imagine is because Adam wasn't instantly destroyed by the Mammoth. Issue is-
-> Caenis' comparison was before anyone knew what Zeus' true power was. Before his battle, each of his lightning strikes is said to have as much power as Artemis' laser, and that's him just being casual and not trying to attack. The other Olympians shouldn't scale off him, nor should Ivan. Let's not even get into the "Anti-Galaxy" stuff that would pretty much drop him in Tier 3.
-> The same Adam was defeated by normal Servants, so that tier can only be given to Adam when it has become bigger and stronger. So, pretty much Sefar all over again-
Really need to stop giving it the same tier on all forms to something that explicitly gets stronger.
And eh, if you all wanna do the "not 2-A" thing soon, all the power to you but I am still busy and wouldn't be able to be there until a 1 or 2 weeks. Also, I am not raising issues with 2-A, I am raising issues with the stuff that is being scaled to 2-A. Even if 2-A was downgraded or not, the issue remains.
-> Caenis' comparison was before anyone knew what Zeus' true power was. Before his battle, each of his lightning strikes is said to have as much power as Artemis' laser, and that's him just being casual and not trying to attack. The other Olympians shouldn't scale off him, nor should Ivan. Let's not even get into the "Anti-Galaxy" stuff that would pretty much drop him in Tier 3.
-> The same Adam was defeated by normal Servants, so that tier can only be given to Adam when it has become bigger and stronger. So, pretty much Sefar all over again-
Really need to stop giving it the same tier on all forms to something that explicitly gets stronger.
And eh, if you all wanna do the "not 2-A" thing soon, all the power to you but I am still busy and wouldn't be able to be there until a 1 or 2 weeks. Also, I am not raising issues with 2-A, I am raising issues with the stuff that is being scaled to 2-A. Even if 2-A was downgraded or not, the issue remains.
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There is a lot of issues here. I agree
Edit: Thoguh, i am of the opinion, that at some point we should bury the hatchet that start the debate of "Which tier 2 to pick" Theres a lot of varying opinions here. That in my opinions should be hashed out in a positive way. T
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Okay, so we all know that the 2-B to 2-A stuff scales from three people: Alter Arjuna, Mooncell BB and Shakyamuni. Go back from the ground up, find out who scales.
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That's exactly what I am discussing about though-
VS has no reason being 2-A, neither does Kavacha and Kundala. And as reasoning for why, Sefar's(the one in Extella, not the full power one from antiquity) dubious 2-A status is put into question as that's the entire reason VS has 2-A. I don't see how discussing the rating of 2 NPs ain't part of the topic.
Well, not quite, everything scales off the Moon Cell, not even Moon Cell BB, due to the Extra Anime "deletion of all parallel timelines" thingy.
BB and Kiara obviously scale as it is the entire source of their power. Beasts then scale since nothing indicates they aren't comparable in power, if you put aside the small details, and the direct statement comparing Extra Kiara and Beast Kiara. And etc etc etc.
Considering VS' only interaction with any of this is defeating a lower level Sefar, 2-A ain't warranted. And considering K&K only interaction with any of this is surviving for a bit against Alter Arjuna, 2-A ain't warranted.
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Except Saber also kills Sefar, and all she has on her side is that Excalibur isn't absorbed by Sefar, unlike basically everything else. Or that Nero also kills her with what is classified as an Anti-Planet NP.
Most damning of all, Sefar is no even close to the full gigantic size she would have when her power is close to 9 Tailed Tamamo, so even more questionable.
Most damning of all, Sefar is no even close to the full gigantic size she would have when her power is close to 9 Tailed Tamamo, so even more questionable.
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So... a Servant trait, a natural factor by which their Servant incarnations are affected by their legends, to the point they can be warped by them like Innocent Monster shows, somehow affects an Extraterrestrial lifeform?
An Extraterrestrial Lifeform that was never killed by Excalibur even, because the Sefar on Earth died while the one on the Moon Cell was merely sealed as it got a feedback reaction from the one on Earth dying, giving the Moon Cell a chance.
That's called a stretch. All Excalibur has on Sefar is that she can't absorb it.
An Extraterrestrial Lifeform that was never killed by Excalibur even, because the Sefar on Earth died while the one on the Moon Cell was merely sealed as it got a feedback reaction from the one on Earth dying, giving the Moon Cell a chance.
That's called a stretch. All Excalibur has on Sefar is that she can't absorb it.
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Or... he warned her about it because it is what killed her much more powerful counterpart on Earth, and it is the one weapon she can't absorb at all?
It wouldn't apply to Big Altera, Extraterrestrial Weapon Extraordinaire, the thing that isn't a Servant. You would need to prove it somehow retroactively affects her when she never got killed by the thing and she's not even a Servant, and wouldn't get a weakness because "shit happened in legend associated to her".
If we decided to assume, even though nothing indicates it, that Gil said so because she has a weakness, that was towards Small Altera. That one is actually summoned as a Servant, that one actually has Servant traits because she really is a Servant.
It wouldn't apply to Big Altera, Extraterrestrial Weapon Extraordinaire, the thing that isn't a Servant. You would need to prove it somehow retroactively affects her when she never got killed by the thing and she's not even a Servant, and wouldn't get a weakness because "shit happened in legend associated to her".
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Edit it for let you understand more what i tell + quoted the text from extella i talk about (quantum time lock, prune world that are unecessary, let them lose their possibilities and their locked to one futur), (exemple: fate stay night and fate zero are not the same world, but all the route in fate stay night are in the same world just are different possibilities (and these possibilities are alive and exist like tell the text in extella and even show in this we can go in different possibilities in extra)No, that's wrong.
It's just too much text to quote here, but the links:
Compiled Events and Pruned Events | TMdict
www.tmdict.com
Quantum Timelock | TMdict
www.tmdict.com
No. ''Parallel worlds'' are like one timeline, Quantum Time-Locks apply to all timelines and ''parallel worlds'' are the time lines themselves, how could they contain time lines? And it makes little sense calling it multiverse, given the sum of all timelines is what constitutes the Universe/a Universe of Fate.
But well not the topic
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You don't use it to fight her. That's specifically stated.
And we don't know how the fight ended. It's left us with a cliff hanger
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SEFAR isn't a Servant or Heroic Spirit for that to apply.
And we already know that SEFAR isn't affected by magecraft, but can be affected by magical energy itself, so it's far easier to assume that Excalibur uses ''raw'' magical energy than to assume it falls under ''Tradition Protection''-like system
Also, all the characters I mentioned have 2-A NPs. Just read the profiles.
John985
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Super Orion dont 2-A NP. Those 2-A rating he have in his profile is something he did when he was grand. And it is something he cant normally do if you read the description of his NP.
Artemis is only 2-A by being in her Machine God form
Arjuna for matching VS
Enkidu is only 2-A because of being equal to living Gilgamesh
Avicebron, lance already clarified it.
Kazuradrop, hers is mostly hax.
Kingprotea is only 2-A because of growth.
Parvati for killing Mara in Ooku.
Kagetora is only 2-A by becoming Bishamonten. Dont have much info on this one. But I trust shiro on this, he did play the event
Altera, I dont remeber her having any 2-A NP.
Charlemagne can mostlikely be toss aside like KK, because he only briefly held back VS.
Rama, its most likely because he also own Trishula that was use to kill Mara.
Solomon and Goetia because of AAS
Kama because she's a beast. It didnt even said any attack potency on her page about her NP.
Tiamat being a beast.
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''likely 2-A with Orion Orkos''
''2-A with Pashupata''
''2-A, higher with Enuma Elish''
Clarified why it's wrong, you mean? Because as he explicited, the scaling doesn't make sense even if Ivan is 2-A, which he isn't anyway...
''possibly 2-A, higher via various Noble Phantasm''
''possibly 2-A with Trishula Shakti''
''2-A with Vishnu Bhuja''
''Gave birth to the Earth itself and all of its life forms. Her data provided BB her power and Authority as a facet of the Earth Mother Goddess.'' which is her Skill/Authority Sea of Life
I looked over some of them too fast and they are not really because of their NPs, what makes them actually even dumber, but yeah.
John985
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Yeah, the 2-A of Super Orion is something he have when he is grand and its not something he can normally do, thats why I said read the description. He can only use it in the story.
And that 2-A Enuma of Enkidu is only for Living Enkidu for being equal to Living Gil.
As long as Ivan is 2-A, Avicebron Adam would still be 2-A.
Kazuradrop, you can have tier by Hax and her Insect eater scale to BB anyway.
Parvati for Kiling Mara which is a beast in Ooku who is 2-A.
Vishnu Bhuja also include Trishula Shakti that was use by Parvati by killing Mara.
I dont even know why Tiamat is included here, she dont have any NP. This thread is for NP.
Yes Pashupata is 2-A because of Matching VS.
And that 2-A Enuma of Enkidu is only for Living Enkidu for being equal to Living Gil.
As long as Ivan is 2-A, Avicebron Adam would still be 2-A.
Kazuradrop, you can have tier by Hax and her Insect eater scale to BB anyway.
Parvati for Kiling Mara which is a beast in Ooku who is 2-A.
Vishnu Bhuja also include Trishula Shakti that was use by Parvati by killing Mara.
I dont even know why Tiamat is included here, she dont have any NP. This thread is for NP.
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My point is made though. Sefar is in her Third Stage of growth, nowhere near the 7th stage where she's compared to 9 Tailed Tamamo.
She gets killed by Excalibur, and by an Anti-Planet NP powered by the Roman Goddess of Love Diana after Nero connects to her with the power of the Moon Cell.
The only thing even implying she's a danger to the Moon Cell is that her skill is specially made to render things like the Moon Cell completely incapable of harming her, only making her stronger. But she's not at that stage where she's stronger than it, and the fact everything she gets killed with is not 2-A only reinforces it.
So 2-A VS goes, just like 2-A K&K. And by consequence, 2-A Pashupata and 2-A Mahapralaya need to go.
Edit: And as I noted above as well, Ivan has no business being 2-A, because his comparison to the Zeus that fought Mars, Quirinus and everyone else falls flat when you realize no one, Caenis included when she's the one that made the comment, knew how powerful Zeus truly was. At best, he should be compared to the other Olympian Gods who should be comparable to Zeus before he did all those modifications to himself. And this would only apply to an Adam that has grown enough because a small Adam is obviously weak enough to get defeated by a group of Servants without any special method or super-powerful weapons that can kill Gods.
She gets killed by Excalibur, and by an Anti-Planet NP powered by the Roman Goddess of Love Diana after Nero connects to her with the power of the Moon Cell.
The only thing even implying she's a danger to the Moon Cell is that her skill is specially made to render things like the Moon Cell completely incapable of harming her, only making her stronger. But she's not at that stage where she's stronger than it, and the fact everything she gets killed with is not 2-A only reinforces it.
So 2-A VS goes, just like 2-A K&K. And by consequence, 2-A Pashupata and 2-A Mahapralaya need to go.
Edit: And as I noted above as well, Ivan has no business being 2-A, because his comparison to the Zeus that fought Mars, Quirinus and everyone else falls flat when you realize no one, Caenis included when she's the one that made the comment, knew how powerful Zeus truly was. At best, he should be compared to the other Olympian Gods who should be comparable to Zeus before he did all those modifications to himself. And this would only apply to an Adam that has grown enough because a small Adam is obviously weak enough to get defeated by a group of Servants without any special method or super-powerful weapons that can kill Gods.
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You know that thing Parvati and Rama used is from Shiva
Someone Arjuna ate
the scaling is kinda ridiculous
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Gathering stuff and gonna answer this later. A bit busy at the moment.
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“And as I noted above as well, Ivan has no business being 2-A, because his comparison to the Zeus that fought Mars, Quirinus and everyone else falls flat when you realize no one, Caenis included when she's the one that made the comment, knew how powerful Zeus truly was. At best, he should be compared to the other Olympian Gods who should be comparable to Zeus before he did all those modifications to himself. And this would only apply to an Adam that has grown enough because a small Adam is obviously weak enough to get defeated by a group of Servants without any special method or super-powerful weapons that can kill Gods.”
Zues isnt really that powerful and is overall weak and EXTREMELY overrated
So you mean hed be rated “At least 4-B, likely 2-A” aka his current rating? Cause thats the rating of the other Olympians and it is also his current rating.
So you mean hed be rated “At least 4-B, likely 2-A” aka his current rating? Cause thats the rating of the other Olympians and it is also his current rating.
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Did Last Encore's Excalibur Galatine calc, and got 6-C
vsbattles.fandom.com
Nasuverse: Excalibur Galatine burns in a crater and valley
vsbattles.fandom.com
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Really not sure about vaporization here
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Anyway so is the problem with all 2-A NPs/2-A servant abilities or specifically the ones surrounding Karna and Arjuna?
(Also 2-A Mahapralaya for the servant doesnt come from VS scaling, it comes from “downscaling” from his LB King form)
(Also 2-A Mahapralaya for the servant doesnt come from VS scaling, it comes from “downscaling” from his LB King form)
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Edited in justification for vaporization, and made the evaluation request.
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My entire point is that the other Olympians shouldn't have the "Likely 2-A" either... And that nothing indicates Caenis or the others knew the true power of Zeus, who even at the very beginning of Olympus, is hyped up as above the other Olympians and directly compared to the likes of Arjuna Alter, before he goes all out using the Kronos Crow.
It's very likely he wouldn't even be 4-B, but more Tier 3, considering some statements during Olympus. But like I said, I am busy with other stuff and trying to gather the info, so i can't discuss it at length right now.
Completely false. Mahapralaya scales to Pashupata due to being directly called comparable to it. Pashupata is in turn scaled to VS. Otherwise, I have no clue where the claims that "it shouldn't have lost it's raw power but only it's area of effect" come from.
Or what? Are we suddenly gonna disregard this line,
From the material book?
Okay, let's use another, different translation of the material book.
"No lose of power" my ass. I have no clue who even assumed that and on what grounds.
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Huh alright, I forgot about that so thats my bad as I havnt checked the Mats for Altjuna in quite some time tbh, apologies.
Anyway I still fully disagree with downgrading VS, Pashu and Maha but that can be discussed later when you are ready and finished gathering your stuff.
I kinda agree on the point about 2-A K&K tho, it doesnt give Karna 2-A Dura (It should give “far higher” durability imo), iirc the Armor itself can survive 2-A attacks but that hasnt been shown to help Karna regardless (I do believe it may give Karna 2-A resistences but resistance =/= Dura).
Anyway I still fully disagree with downgrading VS, Pashu and Maha but that can be discussed later when you are ready and finished gathering your stuff.
I kinda agree on the point about 2-A K&K tho, it doesnt give Karna 2-A Dura (It should give “far higher” durability imo), iirc the Armor itself can survive 2-A attacks but that hasnt been shown to help Karna regardless (I do believe it may give Karna 2-A resistences but resistance =/= Dura).
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Original:
さすがに天下無双のアルジュナといえども、サーヴァントとして召喚された状態では、この剣の力を完全に発揮して、振るうことはできない。だが凝縮・限定された破壊を発生させるという点では、『破壊神の手翳』と同じであり、アルジュナは使い心地をそれほど悪くないと考えているようだ。
How I would personally translate after consulting some TLs
Even Arjuna, who is unrivaled in the world, cannot fully exert the power of this sword when summoned as a servant. However, it is the same as "Destruction God's Hand" in that it causes condensed and limited destruction, and Arjuna seems to think that it is not so uncomfortable to use.
So - Servant version Mahapralaya and Pashupata are similar, but Servant version Mahapralaya is but a shadow of its real power.
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What should we do with this information?Did Last Encore's Excalibur Galatine calc, and got 6-C
Nasuverse: Excalibur Galatine burns in a crater and valley
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@PsychoWarper Thanks.
I am mainly gathering stuff for the sake of Adam, since it scales to Ivan which scales to Zeus.
Vasavi has the issue of only really being used on Sefar (am talking here about being used against beings on this level of power. Is used in other instances, sure, but this is the main one that serves as justification. Otherwise, all we have is it's "God-Killing" level of power and the empty assumption that it could kill any God, of any status, and any level of power, which is a very wide stretch when you account for how massive the gulf in power between Gods can be). Which, as I detailed above, has no reason to be 2-A. Or at least, the Sefar that they beat in the game has no reason to be.
Reason being because Sefar is not big enough. Her Second Skill makes her stronger the bigger she is, and she's nowhere near her full size. On top of that, she gets killed by Saber-Venus with what is classified as an Anti-Planet attack, and by Saber with Excalibur. Neither of those are 2-A. I even tackled the "but then why can't the Moon Cell do anything about her" argument with her first skill, which renders any attacks that aren't unga bunga brute force ineffective and only make her stronger. If it's made with intelligence, like technology, it deals no damage and Altera absorbs all of it. And as you might remember, the Moon Cell is a hyper-technological supercomputer. By its own design, it can't do anything to Sefar.
This would mean Sefar has 2-A absorption except for specific attacks. And all of a sudden, her getting killed by stuff that is not 2-A but the 2-A Moon Cell being helpless to stop her makes perfect sense and there's no contradiction. So yeah, she's not 2-A until she grows enough, and she hadn't grown enough when she gets killed in any of the routes, Karna included, so VS shouldn't scale off killing her.
Also, thanks for that Lehen.
I am mainly gathering stuff for the sake of Adam, since it scales to Ivan which scales to Zeus.
Vasavi has the issue of only really being used on Sefar (am talking here about being used against beings on this level of power. Is used in other instances, sure, but this is the main one that serves as justification. Otherwise, all we have is it's "God-Killing" level of power and the empty assumption that it could kill any God, of any status, and any level of power, which is a very wide stretch when you account for how massive the gulf in power between Gods can be). Which, as I detailed above, has no reason to be 2-A. Or at least, the Sefar that they beat in the game has no reason to be.
Reason being because Sefar is not big enough. Her Second Skill makes her stronger the bigger she is, and she's nowhere near her full size. On top of that, she gets killed by Saber-Venus with what is classified as an Anti-Planet attack, and by Saber with Excalibur. Neither of those are 2-A. I even tackled the "but then why can't the Moon Cell do anything about her" argument with her first skill, which renders any attacks that aren't unga bunga brute force ineffective and only make her stronger. If it's made with intelligence, like technology, it deals no damage and Altera absorbs all of it. And as you might remember, the Moon Cell is a hyper-technological supercomputer. By its own design, it can't do anything to Sefar.
This would mean Sefar has 2-A absorption except for specific attacks. And all of a sudden, her getting killed by stuff that is not 2-A but the 2-A Moon Cell being helpless to stop her makes perfect sense and there's no contradiction. So yeah, she's not 2-A until she grows enough, and she hadn't grown enough when she gets killed in any of the routes, Karna included, so VS shouldn't scale off killing her.
Also, thanks for that Lehen.
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