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Yes,
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Nasuverse CRT: Swirl of The Root is not True Emptiness. Possible upgrade.
- Thread starter Tdjwo
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Tdjwo
He/Him- 2,932
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- #42
Oh ok. Cool.
Idk why anyone would take being above dimensional theories as the same as being above dimensions. How many times do you see a verse using the word dimensional theories? The context is clear. It's supposed to transcend up to 1A level. I agree with you on the concepts part and the rest as those can besupporting statements, but being above dimensional theories is very much enough to reach 1A.
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To be fair, it could just be flowery language, so that isn't much of a counter on its own, but yeah it does seem that the term "dimensional theories" is talking about a set of principles relating to dimensions, and being above that could be 1A. But there are some concerns relating to the translations which could give a totally different meaning
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He said it's a good thing to use, but he himself has his doubts on whether it works in context.
Hasty12345
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maybe you didn't I think I misunderstood.
are you saying the root is 1-A without the apophatic stuff but " " is apophatic and since there's a 1-A structure in the verse, " " is thus H1-A?
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That's basically what he's saying to my knowledge
Tdjwo
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- Thread starter
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Ultima who made AT a big thing here claims Dimensional theories could be enough of a justification to make it 1A.
Yes. The concepts are accepted as 1A. Nasuverse concepts are 1A on this site. At least, that's what multiple people told me here.
Whatever is on the apex in dimensional theories is what the root is according to what the scan states. I don't want to highball such thing to tier 0 so it being 1A makes more sense than anything above or below.
The root doesn't have to be apophatic to be 1A. It has more justifications to reach that.
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iirc i don't remember the Negative Theology part being the main crux for the 1-A tier for the root
Sniper670
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True. The reason it was accepted at all was because of the the Root being above Dimensional Theory
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also something about being beyond time and space and all boundries
There was a lot more to it
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The line is this
It could meam "Dimensionality" (or Dimensionalism) rather than "Dimensional Theory" I guess.
EDIT: Though in any case they're not saying the Root is above every dimensional theory, but according to Occultism the Root is beyond dimensions or dimensional theory. Which is at most a Low 1-C rating without further context.
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Thanks for that stupid 4-D invul, now Nasuverse is stuck and ignored so much because of the no matches tracking
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I feel like it’s also because the nasuverse admins are practically asleep a lot of the time
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There aren't that many people involved in Nasuverse because it's literal cancer to get into the verse to begin with due to just how much content there is. And like half of it isn't even good anyway, so that just makes it even harder. But anyway this is derailing. Let's focus on the topic
Tdjwo
He/Him- 2,932
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More evidence that The Root is different from 「 」
Shiki repeatedly calls Spiral of Origin differently compared to 「Nothingness」or " ". And Spiral of Origin is located in 「Nothingness」yet far away from it. Described as a sea while 「 」is described as nothingess. Yet, Void Shiki is connected to both as she is both
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That I can personally attest to given my original attempt at doing a cosmology blog years ago only to abandon it due to the amount of content that I could easily overlooked without noticing like finding a needle in a haystack.
Anyway, I am neutral on the proposal, leaning towards disagreeing until we get more evidence as of personally speaking, I find it not sufficient enough on that matter anyway.
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That, by itself, doesn’t mean much.Leaning towards disagreeing?
"More evidence?" There was at least 4 different evidences for root and " "
Not to mention since it is from old Nasuverse lore and some FGO IIRC, it doesn’t offer much by itself since it relates to specific part of the cosmology. Also technically speaking, one can made a fine point that nothingness is dimensionless, but anyway, I don’t see any point in discussing this further than necessary
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The Root and [ ] are the same. I see nothing worthy of consideration here.
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I sadly said I'd respond to this so here I go, before I actually get into stuff, I agree with Crimson for the record. To note, I will be referring to 「 」as Kara, the same as Nasu in the mats, because I can't be bothered to copy past 「 」
Just thought I'd mention that
This is all just a really weird reading of it. What it's saying is that, since she's Void, she's born of kara, and will one day just return to it, i.e, she'll stop being Shiki (she's currently just letting Shiki exist and live her life while she sleeps) it's not that kara is some weird power beyond her or whatever, we see this in her valentine, which I will mention later
For instance, we know Kurogiri is linked to the Akashic Records/Spiral of Origin, this is explicitly stated in that novel by Touko to Mikiya, what is also stated is the following
If my sarcasm wasn't clear enough, this is very clearly conflating the two but let's continue
Let's look at the entire basis of the idea of the op, the guide statement
What you're ignoring however, is the why, it's because it's called the Spiral of the Origin that it can't be called kara, if you paid attention to the line directly before this one, Nasu himself says to put it simply, kara is the spiral of origin, you literally can not have a more clear explanation than this. The things attributed to the named things, are meant to talk about Kara, the issue is the indescribable nature of it makes those technically lesser than it. The CRT that made it 1-A in the first place actually addressed this, noting that even calling it Kara, isn't accurate, and that's even reducing it, any description would be. Saber Shiki's valentine notes that it is truly without boundaries, and because of that, things like names can't exist.
Case Files even mentions that kara and the Spiral of the Origin are the same
Now as I already said above kara and the other names are all conflated, as has been mentioned on multiple threads, in verse, descriptions of the root and stuff are meant to be talking about Kara, it just doesn't count because of negative theology, it's the same as how if we said X only applies to Kara, that's also incorrect, because the thing we're describing isn't Kara, it can't be described thats the entire gimmick.
Even ignoring that fact, as you're probably well aware, the reason they're considered one in the same on the wiki is because what we're actually tiering is Kara, we're tiering the super indescribable ineffable source of all, it's just named swirl of the root because not only is that the most common name for it, but putting " " as a page name is a horrid idea. You'll notice we're tiering Kara when you see the whole negative theology point in the justification.
Now of course, this means the invented scaling section in the OP, where X things scale to the proposed lesser root and then others to kara, doesn't exist. For reasons I already mentioned, these descriptions of the root and stuff are all meant for Kara, kara is the origin of all things, kara is the source maelstrom, kara is the destination after death, where you're erased and your origin is recycled (and thus where Roa isn't erased and instead just reincarnates), kara is where MEoDP is connected, and where Unified Language is connected, etc
What it's saying is what is said in FSN and the as well, it's not that according to "occultism it's beyond dimensions" or dimensional theory, it's that based on mysticism (literally the study of mystery in Nasu, an all encompassing force of the root itself), or mystery in some translations, the root sits above all dimensional theories and outside of the World. FSN then adds on that it governs them and then FSN, Zero, FGO, etc add on that it is also the source of all things and concepts and such, which would naturally include said dimensional theories that it's already above
Just thought I'd mention that
This is all just a really weird reading of it. What it's saying is that, since she's Void, she's born of kara, and will one day just return to it, i.e, she'll stop being Shiki (she's currently just letting Shiki exist and live her life while she sleeps) it's not that kara is some weird power beyond her or whatever, we see this in her valentine, which I will mention later
Blatantly incorrect looking at the actual quote you posted
This line right here immediately conflates Kara and the Spiral of Origin, and it's not the only time to do so in KnK
For instance, we know Kurogiri is linked to the Akashic Records/Spiral of Origin, this is explicitly stated in that novel by Touko to Mikiya, what is also stated is the following
But wait, Shiki is connected to Kara, but it grants her protection from a power connected to the root because of, and I quote the connection of both spells to the Spiral of Origin, how odd
If my sarcasm wasn't clear enough, this is very clearly conflating the two but let's continue
Let's look at the entire basis of the idea of the op, the guide statement
So whats being focused on for the OP is
What you're ignoring however, is the why, it's because it's called the Spiral of the Origin that it can't be called kara, if you paid attention to the line directly before this one, Nasu himself says to put it simply, kara is the spiral of origin, you literally can not have a more clear explanation than this. The things attributed to the named things, are meant to talk about Kara, the issue is the indescribable nature of it makes those technically lesser than it. The CRT that made it 1-A in the first place actually addressed this, noting that even calling it Kara, isn't accurate, and that's even reducing it, any description would be. Saber Shiki's valentine notes that it is truly without boundaries, and because of that, things like names can't exist.
Case Files even mentions that kara and the Spiral of the Origin are the same
Now as I already said above kara and the other names are all conflated, as has been mentioned on multiple threads, in verse, descriptions of the root and stuff are meant to be talking about Kara, it just doesn't count because of negative theology, it's the same as how if we said X only applies to Kara, that's also incorrect, because the thing we're describing isn't Kara, it can't be described thats the entire gimmick.
Even ignoring that fact, as you're probably well aware, the reason they're considered one in the same on the wiki is because what we're actually tiering is Kara, we're tiering the super indescribable ineffable source of all, it's just named swirl of the root because not only is that the most common name for it, but putting " " as a page name is a horrid idea. You'll notice we're tiering Kara when you see the whole negative theology point in the justification.
Now of course, this means the invented scaling section in the OP, where X things scale to the proposed lesser root and then others to kara, doesn't exist. For reasons I already mentioned, these descriptions of the root and stuff are all meant for Kara, kara is the origin of all things, kara is the source maelstrom, kara is the destination after death, where you're erased and your origin is recycled (and thus where Roa isn't erased and instead just reincarnates), kara is where MEoDP is connected, and where Unified Language is connected, etc
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Yeah I disagree FRA. @Paul_Frank put it very well
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I mean is agree with this that's what I said but other problems is people scaling to [] apparently and being 1-A which wouldn't make sense because [] is supposed to scale above those things
Although the choice of words was pretty weird I'm pretty sure what he is saying is that because the characters refer to in an attempt to conceptualized it as "spiral of Origin" and the root" hence when the characters describe it they are describing they are of understanding Spiral of Origin or the root things that they refer to but because it can't be described it applies to they are understanding not [] itself
Other issues were proposed as well which would benefit his proposal of that Roa's soul being 1-A scaling to [] which doesn't make sense
So where's the idea that it resists the roots effects come from if he reincarnates anything 1-A about should be removed and some other type of hax like Immortality (Type 9)should be given
And things have a different level of connection to each other tho it, it still wouldn't make sense lol
Let's suppose all of those things are connected
In case files we still have gods being connected to it and God's are supposed to be below true ancestors like arcueid so the connection which would technically upscale the gods which would be 1-A there would still people above the gods arcueid and ultimates ones
If we take the connections to hyper-literally equate to [] then the chains scales wouldn't make sense
[]=Void shiki>Arcueid=altrouge>gods=[]
Doesn't make sense
This still doesn't address other problems
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They are not the same thing the root refers to it but it cannot be it because it's a description
For you to say it's the same thing is to say they share an identity which they don't because if they did A=A would be applicable but it's not the term root only refers to it but it's not it
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No, the choice of words is painfully clear, they're the same thing, describing it at all is the issue
Except it does, because of what kara actually does with souls
What happens when someone dies, is that their soul is erased by the root, leaving only their Origin, all other information and metaphysical aspects are erased, and the origin is then used for something else, Roa however, maintains his information, it does not get erased and he comes back out just fine, into the host of his choosing
Cope ig, thats the only response to this. It just outright says they're both connected to the same thing so she can resist it
Or or or
Maybe just maybe, gods being connected to it doesn't make them equal to it, and then this problem you've conjured out of thin air doesn't exist anymore, revolutionary
There's nothing to address, I gave you like 3 examples explicitly saying they're the same, one from Nasu himself, there's nothing else to say, the verse and the creator of the verse, just say you're incorrect
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That only counts if it lacks aspatial and atemporal I think if something is beyond dimensions and is aspatial and atemporal I think it would have to qualify as qualitatively superior to space time but I don't know if that's how it works in the wiki
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coz u a csap scaler
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You cannot say [] has an identity in classical logic they can't be the same thing at all neve the term root would be the term root if and only iff its the term root the term [] would be the term [] if and only if it's the term [] they are not the same at all even the materials say it
Saying the characters say it's the same which they don't they just refer to it as that even tho it's not that isn't supporting evidence
And it does what? That grants Roa 1-A?
So what it resists the erasure of [] but holy scripture can instead destroy that soul which would mean
Holy scripture>[] =Roa's soul
Which is the problematic and doesn't make any sense at all
What you're inferring from the scan leads to internal contradictions in the verse shiki ryougis 3rd personality also has a deeper connection to the root than base shiki and I'm pretty sure base shiki was the one resisting that thing that which I'm assuming is supposed to be 1-A too
That was my point people have a different level of connection to it to which you responded with "cope ig" that's what the source material says
Huh where did nasu speak that was the Character I already explained to you characters referring to it is supposed to be the characters attempting to conceptualize of it by referring to it as that
The actual mat says they are not the same thing and the meaning of it varies with the characters understanding of it that's why we have references like "the root and spiral of Origin"
What are you saying you gave statements from characters not the author you're acting like the wiki has denied the authors statements cough nasu when it came to the interviews
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1. I don't use csap just because you make profiles at a wiki doesn't mean you endorse the stupidity of the wiki
2. Csap has nothing to do with this I just think it'll be a logical contradiction to say that's not the case
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My proposal is either send the root back to 1-C because people saying references of Kara are Kara are contradicting negative theology because the main point of [] is the avoid paradoxes like references, predicates and descriptions of it being indescribable alike not being [] because if they are the ineffability Paradox can be implemented and negative theology cannot be posited to exist in a that it should
All of this Kara and spiral of Origin are the same thing is a misrepresention negative theology which was the main reason for 1-A nasuverse in the first place
Hence from this thread it should be either 1-C nasuverse or spiral of Origin and Kara aren't treated as the same thing
All of this Kara and spiral of Origin are the same thing is a misrepresention negative theology which was the main reason for 1-A nasuverse in the first place
Hence from this thread it should be either 1-C nasuverse or spiral of Origin and Kara aren't treated as the same thing
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I'm not even going to address this because I posted the exact thing you're referencing, and showed how it doesn't support you and supports me
???? Cope ig? Literally just "no the characters say it's the same but that doesn't count reee"
It fails to erase his soul, so his soul has the durability to withstand it, as we know from Mahoyo, returning there instantly erases and absorbs you, which doesn't happen to him
Bro's acting like resistances are the same as being equal to something, that's crazy
No, no it doesn't lead to contradictions. Hell I'm not even interpreting the scan, I'm telling you verbatim what the scans are. That's not an interpretation, that's just the verse saying it
In
In the guide statement that's the crux of this thread? The one where he says kara is the spiral of origin and then talks about negative theology?
Read literally anything I said again, I explained this already, you're not really giving much to respond to
Bro is lost
To reiterate so it's completely clear to you. The profile is tiering Kara. Kara and all of its various names, are the same, because all names and descriptions are equally unable to describe it, hence why in Case Files, they say they're the same, then mention it being a zero and indescribable and say that that concept carries too much baggage so it doesn't count
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Trying to differenciate the Root from " " is literally missing the entire point of the structure in the first place. What would the Root even be if not " "? They're both just names used to refer to a thing that can't be described. " " is more suitable than "the Root", but they both fail at it in the first place. There's not a "deeper place within the Root that becomes apophatic" because that's a description and thus doesn't apply to it.
You can't separate them, and even if you tried, it would be quite literally impossible to even figure out what is being refered to as this hypothetical "Root" and this hypothetical " ", because no character makes the distinction within the story. No narrator makes a distinction within the story. It's almost like... they're all describing the same thing.
I'll just be closing this. Again, 3rd thread about this in just this week, and now it's gone completely away from what OP even intended to do. Stop making High 1-A Root threads.
You can't separate them, and even if you tried, it would be quite literally impossible to even figure out what is being refered to as this hypothetical "Root" and this hypothetical " ", because no character makes the distinction within the story. No narrator makes a distinction within the story. It's almost like... they're all describing the same thing.
I'll just be closing this. Again, 3rd thread about this in just this week, and now it's gone completely away from what OP even intended to do. Stop making High 1-A Root threads.
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It doesn't say all dimensional theory. It says it sits above Dimensional Theory / Dimensionality but does not use an inclusive previous world. You would have to provide which dimensional theory they are talking about, because otherwise the statement is just Low 1-C.
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