Nasuverse CRT: Swirl of The Root is not True Emptiness. Possible upgrade.

[Tdjwo]

Hello. Before anyone who saw the last CRT says anything, no, this is not like the last CRT. I'm not trying to make anything convoluted. This CRT is simply me trying to make the Root "key" more accurate than before.

Firstly, on this wiki, Swirl of The Root is given the same identity as 「　」.

Name: Akasha, Swirl of the Root, "The Root", "The Spiral of Origin", "Heaven", 「　」

However, not only is this not completely correct, but it's also contradictory to the Nasuverse lore. I'm surprised no one has stated this here because even the Type moon wiki of all things implemented this idea already.



In Fate Zero, it was stated that Swirl of The Root was the pinnacle of power in the entire Nasuverse. The "Throne of God."

However, it has also been directly implied that the Swirl of The Root is a part of 「　」.

「……そうね。式は、壊すことしかできないもの。あなたにとっては、やっぱりわたしは式なんだ わ」
「――式？」
「……わたしの起源は虚無だから、その肉体を持つ式は死が視える。二年間――昏睡状態で外界を見ることもで きず、ただ両儀式という虚無を見つめ続けてきた式は、死の手触りを知ってしまったから。
　式はね、ずっと根源の渦と呼ばれる海に浮いていたのよ。ただひとり、「　」のなかで式というカタチをもっ て」
　……たしかに虚無というものが起源であるのなら、彼女は全てのものを無に｜帰《き》したいと思うのだろう 。
　だから例外なく、式はあらゆるモノを殺せた。式という人格が否定しようと、それが彼女の魂の原型なのだか ら。虚無であるが故に、あらゆるものの死を望む方向性――。
「そう、それが式の能力よ。｜浅上藤乃《あさがみ ふじの》と同じ、人とは違ったモノが見れる特殊なチャンネル。根源の渦という世界の縮図を｜垣間《かいま》 見られる特別な眼。
　けど、わたしはもっと深いところまで潜っていける。いえ――わたし自身が、その渦なのかもし れないわ」

"...Indeed. Shiki is incapable of causing anything but destruction. And as far as you're concerned, I'm Shiki after all."
"---Shiki?"
"...My Origin is Nothingness. As a result, Shiki, who is possessed of that body, can perceive death. Two years ago--- when she fell into a coma, the outside world was shut off to her. Her vision turned inward toward the nothingness called Ryougi Shiki, and she felt the touch of death.
Shiki floated on the sea known as the spiral of origin for a long, long time. A solitary form in the void of 「　」."
...With an Origin like "Nothingness" the girl would certainly feel compelled to return everything to nothing.
Therefore, she was able to kill all things without exception. Even if the personality of Shiki tried to deny it, her soul itself was oriented toward the death of everything.
"That is Shiki's ability. Just like Asagami Fujino, she has a unique channel that can see things normal humans can't. Eyes that can glimpse the spiral of origin, itself a microcosm of the greater world.

But, I can dive even deeper than she. Or rather... I suppose you could say that I myself am that spiral - Kara no Kyoukai (Original epilogue)

Shiki repeatedly calls Spiral of Origin differently compared to 「Nothingness」or " ". And Spiral of Origin is located in 「Nothingness」yet far away from it. Described as a sea while 「　」is described as nothingess. Yet, Void Shiki is connected to both as she is both

The existence of Saber Shiki also proves this.

Saber Shiki has a connection to the Root. It's directly stated that she "was born of 「　」and would one day reach 「　」." In order words, unlike Void Shiki, who is 「　」, Saber Shiki is yet to become that. She hasn't reached 「　」. She's merely a dream, an illusion, a weaker version of Void. That is because the Root itself, which is what Saber Shiki is, was born out of 「　」.

As we commonly know, different people have attempted to reach the root. Araya, Aozaki, Norikata, etc. But while some of them failed and got erased into nothingness, some still managed actually to reach the Root. The general notion of this wiki is that the Swirl of The Root follows Negative Theology. Negative Theology is the act of trying to reach or describe God by what he's not. A phenomenon that embodies Negative Theology is, by default, unreachable and incomprehensible. So the mere fact that different people successfully reached the root, even if they untimely got erased, nonetheless already discredits the fact that the Root has Apophatic Theology.

Michael Roa's soul, for example, repeatedly survived passing through Akasha several times without getting erased permanently. So not only did he reach the root, but also survived it. That's another evidence that the root is not 「　」. The mere fact that another existence excluding Void Shiki or the root shares the same tiering in any way(1A soul for Roa) disproves the notion of Negative Theology for the root. And lastly, it's stated that concepts in their primordial forms trace on infinitely till they reach the Root.

And concepts with the relation to the root are already accepted as 1A on this site. If it were indeed following negative theology, concepts wouldn't be on the same tier as the root.

That's why 「　」is different from Swirl of The Root.

It follows Apophatic Theology without any contradictions.

The Spiral of Origin was somewhat a realm that was「　」, but because it had a name and comprehensibility, it became separate from「　」, and every description given only becomes one with Spiral of Origin and not「　」because it holds true for the Spiral of Origin but not for the incomprehensible「　」. That is supported by the fact different people can reach or touch the Root, but no one has ever been stated to reach 「　」. The only person that reached there was Shiki and that's because Shiki is the physical manifestation of Emptiness「　」. Just having a name is already enough for you not to reach. This supports the notion of Apophatic Theology for「　」.

This is why I'm suggesting the wiki creates a separate key for the apophatic/indescribable 「　」while the Swirl of The Root Key remains the same. Swirl of the Root would remain 1A for being completely transcendent of the rest of reality, transcending dimensional theories, and unrestrained in a domain free from binary opposition. So instead of this AP justification for the root;

Attack Potency: Outerverse level (Is the "Spiral of Origin", the grand mass of nothingness that all concepts in existence sprang forth from, and is where everything returns when it is destroyed. Controls[2] and exists at the summit of all dimensional theories[3], existing independently of it's definitions. It is completely transcendent of the rest of reality, an unrestrained domain free from binary opposition[4]. While spoken of as the "Spiral of Origin", this term cannot be applied to its true essence as 「　」, and any possible description or definition one could try giving is immediately separated into its own idea unrelated to 「　」[5])

It should become;

Attack Potency: Outerverse level (Is the "Spiral of Origin", the grand mass of nothingness that all concepts in existence sprang forth from, and is where everything returns when it is destroyed. Controls[2] and exists at the summit of all dimensional theories[3], existing independently of it's definitions. It is completely transcendent of the rest of reality, an unrestrained domain free from binary opposition[4]. High Outerversal (While spoken of as the "Spiral of Origin", this term cannot be applied to its true essence as 「　」, and any possible description or definition one could try giving is immediately separated into its own idea unrelated to 「　」because of its quintessence of Apophatic Theology, every existence derived from it would always be a part of it while never truly reaching or comprehending its ineffibility[5])

Apophatic Theology grants at the bare minimum 1A, but since the notions of 1A Root is completely below「　」, it would become High 1A.

Characters that scaled to 1A Root would remain 1A.

• Swirl of The Root
• Ryougi Shiki (Saber)
• Roa's soul
• Shiki Tohno's MEoDP hax
• Ciel's 1A Holy Scripture hax

Characters that would be scaled to High 1A

• True Emptiness 「　」
• Ryougi Shiki (Void)

The only character that would scale to the apophatic 「　」would be Void Shiki, as she is the physical manifestation of it. Saber Shiki would not scale for the reasons explained above. She would only remain 1A as having a connection to the root.

Please do not derail or bring in unrelated discussions to the thread. I don't want to go through what I went last night.

Agree

Disagree:

Neutral:

 

[1Nairove]

yes, it will be a chaos environment again (note: it doesn't make sense to open too many threads on this topic one after the other, so let this be a som thread or discussion rule may come)

 

[Iiliminal]

Here before the madness

 

[Tdjwo]

yes, it will be a chaos environment again (note: it doesn't make sense to open too many threads on this topic one after the other, so let this be a som thread or discussion rule may come)

You're right.

 

[Tdjwo]

Here before the madness

I don't want madness

 

[Theoretical]

Most of this was stated beforehand in the thread before but people didn't pay attention properly to that but I guess you formulated this one better

Roa's soul scaling to [] never made sense that would've been like holy scripture>Roa's soul>[]

Which would be contradictory because [] is unreachable from anything in the nasuverse aside from shiki ryougi's 3rd personality which is directly connected to [] via having the origin of emptiness so it makes sense for her to be the only to scale

The only issue here is whether or not being unreachable from 1-A would qualify for high 1-A because some people might argue just a layer into 1-A or something like that

I hope this isn't as chaotic as it was beforehand because I don't have the energy to deal with that again but I agree

 

[Theoretical]

Wording it out like "the embodiment of negative theology" makes it sound cringe

 

[1Nairove]

you know where to add me, dude

 

[1Nairove]

Most of this was stated beforehand in the thread before but people didn't pay attention properly to that but I guess you formulated this one better

Roa's soul scaling to [] never made sense that would've been like holy scripture>Roa's soul>[]

Which would be contradictory because [] is unreachable from anything in the nasuverse aside from shiki ryougi's 3rd personality which is directly connected to [] via having the origin of emptiness so it makes sense for her to be the only to scale

The only issue here is whether or not being unreachable from 1-A would qualify for high 1-A because some people might argue just a layer into 1-A or something like that

I hope this isn't as chaotic as it was beforehand because I don't have the energy to deal with that again but I agree

unreachable 1A may again vary depending on context if unreachable means 1A+ rating, this is suitable for High 1-A, but if it only uses unreachable for baseline 1A, it means 1A^2

 

[1Nairove]

So even if this Thread won't make Ryogi and Root High 1-A, we can argue for at least 2 layers (but still defend High 1-A)

 

[Tdjwo]

Most of this was stated beforehand in the thread before but people didn't pay attention properly to that but I guess you formulated this one better

Roa's soul scaling to [] never made sense that would've been like holy scripture>Roa's soul>[]

Which would be contradictory because [] is unreachable from anything in the nasuverse aside from shiki ryougi's 3rd personality which is directly connected to [] via having the origin of emptiness so it makes sense for her to be the only to scale

I mean, 1A Roa's soul makes sense since it's not the only thing that has reached the root before. That's why it would make no sense for 「　」to be on the same tier as the root or Roa's soul since it's supposed to represent an ineffibility to anything in the verse, including 1A Root/Roa.

The only issue here is whether or not being unreachable from 1-A would qualify for high 1-A because some people might argue just a layer into 1-A or something like that

I hope this isn't as chaotic as it was beforehand because I don't have the energy to deal with that again but I agree

I don't see how this would be anything lower than High 1A. Apophatic Theology is 1A at the bare minimum. And if 1A already exists within a verse, then the apophatic existence would get an inaccessible transcendence making it High 1A. That's how Apophatic Theology works on this site. It makes no sense for it to be 1A+ instead of High 1A.

 

[Tdjwo]

So even if this Thread won't make Ryogi and Root High 1-A, we can argue for at least 2 layers (but still defend High 1-A)

It makes no sense for an Apophatic Theology to only be given an infinite layer transcendence. Negative Theology is by default an inaccessible cardinal to 1A

 

[Theoretical]

I mean, 1A Roa's soul makes sense since it's not the only thing that has reached the root before

When I mean reach I don't mean physically reach im talking ab the ontological hierarchy of the nasuverse just like how you say it shouldn't be the same tier that's what I'm talking ab things have already existed in the root but I'm not talking ab it in that sense

I don't see how this would be anything lower than High 1A.

I'm not talking ab me but other people here

 

[Paul_Frank]

Is this the fourth attempt at this in 2 days, jfc, I want high 1-A or 0 root too but come on

I'll give a response to this later

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Is this the fourth attempt at this in 2 days, jfc, I want high 1-A or 0 root too but come on

Yeah, getting out of hand now.

 

[Tdjwo]

But it's only the second attempt though.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Is this the fourth attempt at this in 2 days, jfc, I want high 1-A or 0 root too but come on

I'll give a response to this later

Bruh, honestly don't know what is happening lately, the status of the verse crts go from almost complete silence to several high end crts (with various of low quality btw, and I don't mean the statistics upgrades to servants).

 

[Tdjwo]

This is what happens when a verse gets ignored for the longest time. We would all start spawning out if the staff members for Nasuverse aren't gonna feed us. We gotta eat.

 

[Theoretical]

Is this the fourth attempt at this in 2 days, jfc, I want high 1-A or 0 root too but come on

I'll give a response to this later

Who made 4 attempts I remember it being 3

We gotta eat.

Bro said we gotta eat

I'll give a response to this later

What's it gonna be? contradicting negative theology? Layering negative theology?
[] >holy scripture>Roa's soul=[]?

 

[1Nairove]

This is what happens when a verse gets ignored for the longest time. We would all start spawning out if the staff members for Nasuverse aren't gonna feed us. We gotta eat.

I agree that the site seriously ignores nasuverse, in fact, it may be one of the top 3 strongest universes of anime verse, but this verse does not attract people's opinion for some reason, and it is nice that there are 1-2 people on the site who are knowledgeable about it (otherwise, I think the staff will respond to the drop scales taken from redit). bleeding could make the universe H6C)

 

[Tdjwo]

I agree that the site seriously ignores nasuverse, in fact, it may be one of the top 3 strongest universes of anime verse, but this verse does not attract people's opinion for some reason, and it is nice that there are 1-2 people on the site who are knowledgeable about it (otherwise, I think the staff will respond to the drop scales taken from redit). bleeding could make the universe H6C)

Nasuverse has only 1-2 staff members. That's crazily low for such a humongous verse.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

Nasuverse has only 1-2 staff members. That's crazily low for such a humongous verse.

 

[Tarang123]

I don't see how this would be anything lower than High 1A. Apophatic Theology is 1A at the bare minimum. And if 1A already exists within a verse, then the apophatic existence would get an inaccessible transcendence making it High 1A. That's how Apophatic Theology works on this site. It makes no sense for it to be 1A+ instead of High 1A.

If you argue that it's apophatic over these 1A things, then it would be High 1A, yes

 

[Tarang123]

Anyway, I'm neutral. I get what this is getting at, but I want to see other responses first

 

[Qawsedf234]

Apophatic Theology grants at the bare minimum 1A, but since the notions of 1A Root is completely below「　」, it would become High 1A.

Apophatic Theology over the Root isn't a High 1-A justification. It's just higher 1-A or 1-A+ at the highest.

 

[Tarang123]

Apophatic Theology over the Root isn't a High 1-A justification. It's just higher 1-A or 1-A+ at the highest.

wouldn't it literally satisfy the definition of High 1A though?

Characters or objects that can affect structures that are larger than what the logical framework defining 1-A and below can allow, and as such exceed any possible number of levels contained in the previous tiers, including an infinite or uncountably infinite number. Practically speaking, this would be something completely unreachable to any 1-A hierarchies.

My issue is more to the fact that the argument stems down to the belief that True Emptiness 「　」is High 1A because it's apophatic to the aforementioned 1A structures. To specify, its apophasis over them is on the basis that they're things that are given conceptualization/description, and therefore lower. This brings multiple issues, with the primary one being that this would mean that the 1A things that were mentioned aren't apophatic at all, and would likely lose their 1A rating as well, considering how important apophasis was to their ratings.

So even if we took that, it would really just seem to be 1A again.

 

[Qawsedf234]

wouldn't it literally satisfy the definition of High 1A though?

Being indescribable to something or above it wouldn't satisfy a High 1-A justification in my view. But I guess I could be wrong.

My issue is more to the fact that the argument stems down to the belief that True Emptiness 「　」is High 1A because it's apophatic to the aforementioned 1A structures. To specify, its apophasis over them is on the basis that they're things that are given conceptualization/description, and therefore lower. This brings multiple issues, with the primary one being that this would mean that the 1A things that were mentioned aren't apophatic at all, and would likely lose their 1A rating as well, considering how important apophasis was to their ratings.

So the Root would get bumped down to Low 1-C (or whatever it used to be at) and [ ] would stay at 1-A then.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

So the Root would get bumped down to Low 1-C (or whatever it used to be at) and [ ] would stay at 1-A then.

Dang

 

[Tdjwo]

Being indescribable to something or above it wouldn't satisfy a High 1-A justification in my view. But I guess I could be wrong.

What are you trying to imply? The root has always been known to be Apophatic on this wiki, but now because I think 「　」is apophatic over 1A root, it''s suddenly not more Apophatic? This makes no sense.

So the Root would get bumped down to Low 1-C (or whatever it used to be at) and [ ] would stay at 1-A then.

Wtf? Why would it get bumped down? Didn't you read the post? It still has 3 more justifications of it being 1A. Onl the apophatic part is removed, Root remains 1A and 「　」 becomes High 1A.

 

[Tdjwo]

Apophatic Theology over the Root isn't a High 1-A justification. It's just higher 1-A or 1-A+ at the highest.

That's not true tho. Apophatic Theology according to what's accepted on this wiki grants a whole new inaccessible tier. In a verse without 1A structures, if something has apophatic theology, it becomes 1A. In a verse with 1A structure, if something has apophatic theology, it becomes High 1A. Apophatic theology doesn't have infinite layers of hierarchy. It's a whole new transcendence.

 

[Tarang123]

What are you trying to imply? The root has always been known to be Apophatic on this wiki, but now because I think 「　」is apophatic over 1A root, it''s suddenly not more Apophatic? This makes no sense.

I think what he's saying is that it's not High 1A

Wtf? Why would it get bumped down? Didn't you read the post? It still has 3 more justifications of it being 1A. Onl the apophatic part is removed, Root remains 1A and 「　」 becomes High 1A.

Those were supporting evidences that rely primarily on its apophatic theology

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Um. Yeah. The primary evidence that was used to upgrade the Root period to 1-A was the Apothathic stuff because it was Apothathic in comparison to the concept of dimensionality from what I remember. Separating it from The Root would result in a complete reevaluation on whether or not The Root w/o it qualifies for 1-A.

 

[Tdjwo]

I think what he's saying is that it's not High 1A

How is it not High 1A, though? This wiki accepts AT as bare minimum 1A in a verse without Outerversal beings or structures. But if there's a 1A structure in the verse, then the AT existence becomes high 1A as it is inaccessible to 1A structures. I think SRE works like that on this site.

Those were supporting evidences that rely primarily on its apophatic theology

There are up to 3 justifications on the root's profile, even if we remove apophatic theology. Why is AT the only thing considered and focused on when it's also stated to be above dimensional theories, independent from binaries and dualities, etc?

 

[Qawsedf234]

The root has always been known to be Apophatic on this wiki,

If people can reach it, its automatically non-Apophatic. Negative Theology doesn't work if the being at the top isn't all-powerful compared to those below it.

Onl the apophatic part is removed,

Without the Apophatic part nothing else is a 1-A justification.

 

[Tarang123]

How is it not High 1A, though? This wiki accepts AT as bare minimum 1A in a verse without Outerversal beings or structures. But if there's a 1A structure in the verse, then the AT existence becomes high 1A as it is inaccessible to 1A structures. I think SRE works like that on this site.

I'm not saying I agree. I don't agree. I remember Ultima explicitly saying that it would be.

There are up to 3 justifications on the root's profile, even if we remove apophatic theology. Why is AT the only thing considered and focused on when it's also stated to be above dimensional theories, independent from binaries and dualities, etc?

Yeah, but those are along with the apophatic theology to make it more legit. Above all dimensional theories scales nowhere on its own and simply falls under the FAQ's section about transcending dimensions. Being the origin and end of all concepts also doesn't really mean much at all. And transduality on its own (which is basically what the "free of binary opposition" thing is) isn't 1A. I think the "above all dimensional theories" one could work, but even that is a bit questionable with some weird translation stuff

 

[Tdjwo]

If people can reach it, its automatically non-Apophatic. Negative Theology doesn't work if the being at the top isn't all-powerful compared to those below it.

I see what's going on now. You completely misunderstood me. The root is not apophatic. It's 「　」that is apophatic. But the root is still 1A because it has other justifications. 3 infact.

Without the Apophatic part nothing else is a 1-A justification.

That's false. The root got 1A not only because it was Apophatic. But because of the other justifications as well.

Attack Potency: Outerverse level (Is the "Spiral of Origin", the grand mass of nothingness that all concepts in existence sprang forth from, and is where everything returns when it is destroyed. Controls[2] and exists at the summit of all dimensional theories[3], existing independently of it's definitions. It is completely transcendent of the rest of reality, an unrestrained domain free from binary opposition[4]. While spoken of as the "Spiral of Origin", this term cannot be applied to its true essence as 「　」, and any possible description or definition one could try giving is immediately separated into its own idea unrelated to 「　」[5])

 

[Tarang123]

I see what's going on now. You completely misunderstood me. The root is not apophatic. It's 「　」that is apophatic. But the root is still 1A because it has other justifications. 3 infact.

That's false. The root got 1A not only because it was Apophatic. But because of the other justifications as well.

After speaking with Ultima, I think the "dimensional theories" thing, if it's actually referring to what the profiles says it does, could be a good justification for 1A. The rest of it isn't 1A though

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

This is the 3rd thread about this just this week.

What the hell?

If people can reach it, its automatically non-Apophatic. Negative Theology doesn't work if the being at the top isn't all-powerful compared to those below it.

About this though, when you reach the Root the path you took to get there can never be taken again, which is said to in part be because of that. If you approach the Root, then it's not the Root anymore, so the path is "closed" and no long available to reach the Root.

Though, the "Root" and " " being separate is not really a thing as far as I know, other than anything you try to apply to the Root would automatically not be the Root and thus it would transcend it. Both the Root and " " are just means of refering to that, and even " " is not really what the Root is, because the lack of description is still a description in itself.

I really don't know what this thread is even arguing rip.

 

[Qawsedf234]

That's false. The root got 1A not only because it was Apophatic. But because of the other justifications.

It is not. Apopthic Theology is the reason it got 1-A. The rest fall on our FAQ rules and just makes it Low 1-C.

Is the "Spiral of Origin", the grand mass of nothingness that all concepts in existence sprang forth from,

Being the origin of concepts isn't a 1-A statement unless the concepts are themselves are 1-A

and is where everything returns when it is destroyed. Controls[2] and exists at the summit of all dimensional theories[3],

This can be 1-A, but you must prove what dimensional theories exist in Fate/Stay and only a handful can get into Tier 1-A

existing independently of it's definitions. It is completely transcendent of the rest of reality, an unrestrained domain free from binary opposition

Per our FAQ page

A: As specified above, a "dimension" is nothing more than a set of values representing a given direction within a system, and a multi-dimensional space can itself be thought of as a multiplication of several "copies" of these sets. For instance, the 3-dimensional space in which we live is often visualized as the set of all 3-tuples of real numbers (Thus, taking its values from the real number line, R), and is thus the result of the iterated multiplication: R x R x R = R³, likewise, 4-dimensional space is the set of all 4-tuples of real numbers, and is thus equal to R x R x R x R = R⁴, and so on and so forth.

Practically speaking, this means that there is no limit for the number of dimensions which a space can have whatsoever, and one can construct spaces whose dimension corresponds to any cardinal number, including the infinite ones mentioned above. It is not even necessary for us to restrict ourselves to values taken from the real numbers, either: It is also possible to define the space of all n-tuples of cardinal numbers (Which takes its values from V, the class of all sets)

As a result, it is not at all feasible to take any statements involving a character existing "beyond dimensions" at face value, as this would lead to extremely inflated ratings largely dependent on No-Limits Fallacies. Therefore, such descriptors are to be evaluated while taking into account the number of dimensions which the verse has been shown to entertain; for example, a character stated to exist above physical dimensions in relation to a 4-dimensional cosmology would be Low 1-C with no further context.

A: No. As said above, predating a certain concept does not necessarily imply any form of superiority over it, especially not to the degree where it warrants an 1-A rating.

A: As said above, "transcending space and time" is a very vague statement by itself and can mean multiple things depending on the context in which it is made, as well as how this characteristic is portrayed in the first place. However, if it is specified that they "transcend space and time" in the sense that they exist on some higher level of reality that is qualitatively superior to a spacetime continuum in nature, then they should be put at Low 1-C, assuming the continuum in question is one comprised of four dimensions. The answer may vary depending on this factor.

If the Root isn't Apophaticthen it's not 1-A.

 

[Hasty12345]

I didn't know there was such thing as "more apophatic", isn't that an inherent contradiction?