Naruto's lightspeed statements and their consistency

[AstralKing7]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCfbi7MoeI4

11:52 time stamp. It doesn't show Tsunade and the raikage stopping then jumping to attack Madara, it only shows a flash of light and them making contact mid air. Looking back at the manga scan it shows the same thing, a flash of light and both the raikage and tsunade making contact with Madara and Kabuto.

It is hard to tell if they did or didn't touch the ground before attacking Madara, however, I believe they didn't since the glow around them didn't disappear until they made contact with Madara and Kabuto.

Thanks for showing the anime version

 

[Lorenzo.r.2nd]

Wouldn't this simply mean that he threw a lightsaber at Sasuke, instead of him throwing a beam of light tho? IMO, these may seem consistent only if u look at them as they are lined up here. Anything but that and we have no consistency at all. We still have characters much faster than the supposed sub rel Sasuke with problems at dodging lightning fast attacks, or even slower (fire style, water style, any other style comes to mind). We have minuto incapable of dodging ay physically, who was slower than he is now, even though we have minato as physically faster than tobirama, who could fight alive mandara in sage mode and perceive juubito's moves whom are both faster than ay. This is as consitent as naruto intelligence tbh

 

[Gogogozoom7]

Were still on the topic concerning whether or not Madara reacted to Mabui's teleportation?While i've read through the heap of new comments in this thread,I was unaware of some information.My argument may seem a bit rushed,I just woke up.

1)Kabuto being inside Mu's body.Despite Kabuto being a genius of sorts,he isn't unsurprisable,like Mu(the original owner of the body)was.I find it,now,likely that the two were blinded by the light of them arriving to the battlefield,then attacked.I already disagreed with Madara reacting to Mabui's teleport,and I disagree further in light of this information.

"Madara has his eyes open".Question,do you not see the,"!!?",right on the page infront of him?On top of the flash of light,would that not be proof enough of his suprise?

2)What's the current stance on the Lariat?

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

Lariat hasn't really been discussed yet. Most of this thread has been focused on Madara and Muu reacting to Tsunade and the Raikage.

 

[AstralKing7]

Lorenzo u make no sense bruh. Minato has reaction speed that scales to Ay and faster.


Jutsus that can catch Sasuke off guard are obviously faster than lightning and scale to the character who uses the jutsu if it's fire style or different

 

[Damage3245]

I'm still summarizing the points for the Ethereal Transmission Jutsu, but first I want to get Issen settled if possible before moving on to the big topic.

Let me know if I've missed anything.

Isse

Points For

• The name the technique can translate to 'Flash' or 'Beam of Light'.
• The databook states that the attack is lightspeed.

Points Against

• The name of the technique is unlikely to be a literal description seeing as it is a ranged chakra blade that doesn't act like a beam or a flash of light.
• When launched alongside several other attacks, Mifune's slice appears to be travelling at comparable speed to them in both the manga and the anime.
• Sasuke Uchiha (with a basic Sharinga) effortlessly reacts and counters Issen from other Samurai.
  • Only a couple of arcs earlier, Sasuke fought Killer B with his Sharingan active and was overwhelmed by the speed of his attacks even without Killer B using any Biju power.
• There are no other feats from Mifune in the manga supporting him having lightspeed attack speed.

 

[Jvando]

Were still on the topic concerning whether or not Madara reacted to Mabui's teleportation?While i've read through the heap of new comments in this thread,I was unaware of some information.My argument may seem a bit rushed,I just woke up.

1)Kabuto being inside Mu's body.Despite Kabuto being a genius of sorts,he isn't unsurprisable,like Mu(the original owner of the body)was.I find it,now,likely that the two were blinded by the light of them arriving to the battlefield,then attacked.I already disagreed with Madara reacting to Mabui's teleport,and I disagree further in light of this information.

"Madara has his eyes open".Question,do you not see the,"!!?",right on the page infront of him?On top of the flash of light,would that not be proof enough of his suprise?

You literally say they were blinded by the attack but then bring up how Madara's eyes were open. The "!!?" JusT means they were surprised by the sudden arrival, not that they were somehow blinded by the light of the attack. Also, again, you can be surprised and fail to react OR you can still react in time despite your being surprised. Muu/Kabuto is the former. Madara is clearly the latter.

No one has adequately addressed my point about Ay using his lightning cloak after landing despite him activating it before he attacks every. Single. Time.

The argument that "He didn't have enough time" falls flat when you likewise state that he landed and was fast enough to blitz Muu/Kabuto while in base. If he was truly that fast, activating a technique that he does near instantaneously every. Single. Time he attacks would have been a cinch. We don't see that. We only see that they attacked the two Edo's while still under the effects of the LS transport further backed up by tertiary canon in the form of the anime.

 

[Jvando]

On a completely unrelated note, we might soon need to create a separate thread to this if this one doesn't get resolved in the next couple dozen posts which, let's be honest, it probably won't.

 

[Jvando]

I'm still summarizing the points for the Ethereal Transmission Jutsu, but first I want to get Issen settled if possible before moving on to the big topic.

Let me know if I've missed anything.

The name of the technique is hardly a counter point and no one is really even arguing that. We are just focusing on the Databook entry, not the name, because as you said, it doesn't matter.

I suppose then that we will have to downgrade a lot of other verses that have characters that scale Much above the lower tiers of the verse yet their combination attacks reach their opponents at the same time. Like, we see their attacks in combination with a Bijuu Bomb...theirs shouldn't even be consequencial in comparison. It's legit just a trope used quite often in fact (DBZ)

The only one we are even arguing Issen for is for mifune, not the fodder samurai. There are no LS statements for their attacks, only for Mifune's.

And for you're last point:

TataHakai I'm staying neutral on this

However if we had someone dodge a stated lightspeed attack then have someone else relative to them stated to be stated to be near lightspeed then in any other verse that'd probably be accepted without argument.
It makes sense within the scaling of the characters and it's only being applied to a single individual, not random fodder.

 

[Gogogozoom7]

@Jvando

1)Yes,exactly,they were suprised by their sudden arrival.Although,it really isn't out of the question to assume they were,or atleast KaMuto,was blinded by the light of the transportation,which would provide reason enough for Ay to be capable of suprising KaMuto.Madara reacting to Tsunade's attack would be a feat of him capable of reacting to her combat speed,not him reacting to a supposedly lightspeed strike.

2)Genuinly,i'm baffled by this.He should have used his lightning cloak,but he didn't.I forgot the word for what this was called...

3)Which is why I said above that I agreed with them being suprisd by their sudden arrival,and why I said it isn't out of the question that he was blinded by the light of the technique.In the anime,they weren't under the effects of the technique while attacking.At all.The aura was nowhere to be seen when they threw their blows.

If it doesn't get resolved,we should just drop it.

 

[Damage3245]

@Jvando; the original post of the thread uses the Issen databook statement to support Sasuke by saying he reacted to it.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Sasuke reacting to Issen is something against? Damage, listen, THERE IS NOTHING against Issen. The statement is enough. You're using arguments that do not make sense. This only shows that you have nothing more to add to the post and is trying to avoid an upgrade.

 

[Damage3245]

@M3X: I make a list of the reasons for and against the rating, and you just respond by saying "You have nothing to add."

It sounds a lot like you're just ignoring my post.

 

[Jvando]

@Jvando; the original post of the thread uses the Issen databook statement to support Sasuke by saying he reacted to it.

And throughout the discussion of it, like in the middle of this thread, I thought we had come to the compromise that we didn't care for it. That's the only reason I even care that it was brought up again.

 

[Damage3245]

If that's the case then the OP should be updated to remove the bits that no longer apply. Including the removal of the bit about Sasuke performing Sub-Rel feats.

 

[M3X_2.0]

I'm not ignoring, but I wanted to be able to ignore and save some brain cells. None of yoir reasons make any sense, literally none. You only show your true behavior in this thread: You do not want something more correct or anything, this here only becomes personal interest on your part. You only want a downgrade

 

[Gogogozoom7]

@M3X No offense intended,but this really sounds like your the only one getting personal about it.Take a bit of a break to calm down.

 

[Damage3245]

Well, that's an Appeal to Motive fallacy and Ad Hominem fallacy right there.

I'm sure people can see why I find it frustrating to participate in these threads sometimes.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Y'all need to stop attacking people, this is ridiculous.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I was informed that someone said, "Sasuke being able to react proves it's not light speed". That's not really enough context, it should be based on other properties. I also agree that the hostility on both sides needs to stop.

 

[Damage3245]

@DDM; you are correct. I shall edit my post to include more context.

 

[BlackeJan]

Where r the staff members of this is going to be dragged out? since majority of the staff r neutral then we should just have staff only thread and have someone who agrees with it to say his piece while the other that doesn't agree to say his piece and just let them do what they need to do

 

[Rocker1189]

@M3X: I make a list of the reasons for and against the rating, and you just respond by saying "You have nothing to add."
It sounds a lot like you're just ignoring my post.

Tbh, you literally repeat everything said in the thread and throw it into one post. what do you want us to say but repeat our points again.

 

[Gogogozoom7]

@BlackeJan,I suppose that's fair.Some staff do indeed have yet to add their input.

 

[Gogogozoom7]

@Rocker1189,Damage's post was meant to summarize the points.It makes it easier than having to scour the entire 300 post thread. I support @BlackeJan's proposal,as it seems were just moving in circles.

 

[Rocker1189]

While ignoring the epoimts made by people against him. Not exactly fair.

 

[Damage3245]

@Rocker1189; are there additional reasons for why we should consider Mifune's Issen to be lightspeed? If so, please post them because I must have missed them.

 

[Jvando]

I'm staying neutral on this

However if we had someone dodge a stated lightspeed attack then have someone else relative to them stated to be stated to be near lightspeed then in any other verse that'd probably be accepted without argument.

1) fits in with scaling

2) made by a secondary canon source

3) No counter evidence and fits within the story

4) only scales to that one individual anyway, not every samurai under the sea

 

[Damage3245]

@Jvando; regarding point 3, I did post this:

• When launched alongside several other attacks, Mifune's slice appears to be travelling at comparable speed to them in both the manga and the anime.

You might disagree with it being strong evidence, but it would incorrect to say there is no counter evidence at all.

 

[BlackeJan]

Where r the staff members of this is going to be dragged out? since majority of the staff r neutral then we should just have staff only thread and have someone who agrees with it to say his piece while the other that doesn't agree to say his piece and just let them do what they need to do

 

[Gogogozoom7]

1)That hasn't been discussed much.At all.

2)Odd,I thought the anime was the secondary canon,and the databook was simply there to provide a bit of info on characters and techniques within the story.Along with some hyperbole and "hype text" here or there.

3)Did Damage's post just get completely voided?Agreed,it fits in the story.Of course it does,because it's a Jutsu.

4)But as some said above,Sasuke managed to dodge it.Which would mean it scales to said individual,and Sasuke.But then other characters can fight Sasuke,so on and so forth.

On a different note,I still agree with BlackeJan.

 

[Damage3245]

@Gogogozoom7; apparently it has been decided that the attacks used against Sasuke don't scale to Mifune's version.

Though it should really be removed from the OP to avoid confusion.

 

[Gogogozoom7]

Ah,then it seems I was confused.It'd be best if it was removed from the OP then.

 

[M3X_2.0]

The name of the technique is unlikely to be a literal description seeing as it is a ranged chakra blade that doesn't act like a beam or a flash of light.

For some reason you still continue to use attack name as a reason to consider something. For God's sake, to repeat this, this is not a reason against or in favor. It's just a ******* name. Totally useless here.

When launched alongside several other attacks, Mifune's slice appears to be travelling at comparable speed to them in both the manga and the anime.

Attacks being thrown at the same time and not demonstrating difference in speed is something common, I do not even know how this is an argument, this is common in works like, Magi with the magic of light and lightning going visually at the same speed, or when the members of Universe 7, in Dragon Ball, launch their attacks at the same time and hit the character I forgot the name at the same time. Goku is way above characters like Android 18 or 17, but there was no speed difference. That is common. This is visual.

Sasuke Uchiha (with a basic Sharingan) effortlessly reacts and counters Issen from other Samurai. Only a couple of arcs earlier, Sasuke fought Killer B with his Sharingan active and was overwhelmed by the speed of his attacks even without Killer B using any Biju power.

Wrong again and this one does not even make sense. Sasuke could keep up with more complexes movement from Bee than a single kick from him. Your scan does not show Bee overwhelming Sasuke. And Sasuke could even react to his Lariat, wich is the near lightspeed attack. Sasuke reacted, so what? Bee scale above this Sasuke and it is super consistent. Bee's Kenjutsu is just complexe for Sasuke's sharingan to predict or read movement, that's why Sasuke had some difficult against him. Also Sasuke was injuried in this fight

 

[JohnHendrix212]

@Jvando; regarding point 3, I did post this:

As people has already repeatedly said, attacks moving at the same speed despite some being proven faster than others, and arriving at the Target at the same time, is a common trope in manga and anime. It's for visuals. I've seen this a lot in DBS and DBZ, yet it doesn't make their attacks any more comparable in speed.

 

[Damage3245]

Why does it matter what other verses do? What relevance is that to this discussion?

 

[M3X_2.0]

Because this is common, it is something visual. I do not care if you do not agree with examples of other verses, I'll keep mentioning it because your point just does not make sense

 

[Damage3245]

I think we'd need a staff member to come in for that; because I don't think it's an accepted standard on the site that attacks can be depicted to travel at about the same speed and not matter at all.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

Why does it matter what other verses do? What relevance is that to this discussion?

I'm making an example. DBS has a buttload of similar instances where multiple characters fire off their attacks at the same time, and arriving at the Target also at the same time despite some of those attacks having feats of being faster. It's the same here.

Again, it's for visuals. Mifune's attack traveling alongside other Samurais' attacks is irrelevant.

 

[M3X_2.0]

No, we do not. This whole problem is you who are causing, citing irrelevant things thinking that they are big problems in accepting the statement