Naruto VS Zoro

[Noneless21]

There is enough evidence... He counters the genjutsu via observation haki

You are clearly being baised and not listening to the opposing argument... Don't think arguing with you will change anything.

Dude please take turns, im getting tired and i havent finished my daily so brb

 

[YoutubeForKing]

Your only argument is his reactive evolution meaning he will get stronger after fighting and his observation haki. You never stated his level of proficency with the haki nor would it allow him to see chakra based attacks while inside of a genjutsu

 

[Noneless21]

Question, I don't remember this properly but from how the series portrays it, the actual future sight only comes with Advanced Haki Users, what they have beforehand at least isn't as clear. That's why with Katekuri and Luffy, we're directly shown Katukuri having the visions with Luffy later getting the same ones. What Zoro actually is doing is more a reading of intent than actually seeing into the future, hence why even now he's never shown having any visions in his fights.

Thats why i think that maybe zoro can't see the future in a sense as he can read the intent which is bad for naruto when they decided to use genjutsu

 

[Duedate8898]

There is enough evidence... He counters the genjutsu via observation haki

Will say here, that Zoro or other Haki users of his level of observation haki should have feats of countering mind manipulation/illusions in order to say that he won't be paralyzed by the genjutsu.

 

[Noneless21]

i see, then genjutsu means nothing huh

 

[YoutubeForKing]

So your telling me that Zoro resistance in better than rinnegans?
This is a satire thread i'm unfollowing.

 

[Noneless21]

I thought rinnegan didn't gave you resistant to genjutsu? I thought it was sharingan

 

[Noneless21]

Hold on gonna read about rinnegan

 

[Duedate8898]

I'm saying that Zoro nor any Observation users have feats of countering something like Genjutsu or being unaffected so I don't think he'd resist or be able to bypass the effects.

I thought rinnegan didn't gave you resistant to genjutsu? I thought it was sharingan

And it doesn't as far as the series shows

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Will say here, that Zoro or other Haki users of his level of observation haki should have feats of countering mind manipulation/illusions in order to say that he won't be paralyzed by the genjutsu.

that genjutsu puts your mind in a different place
Mind Manipulation and Mind based BFR and non-combat applicable Spatial Manipulation (With Ma and Pa])

This guy's whole head is in a different place but can still sense from his body and fight.

 

[Noneless21]

Well i just saw nagato's profile and it didn't say anything about him resist genjutsu

 

[Noneless21]

So my debate with this dude is useless from the start smh

 

[Duedate8898]

that genjutsu puts your mind in a different place
Mind Manipulation and Mind based BFR and non-combat applicable Spatial Manipulation (With Ma and Pa])

This guy's whole head is in a different place but can still sense from his body and fight.

Those aren't comparable, Kinemon is in a physically separate place. Also not all Genjutsu puts you in a separate place, it more just messes with your senses and your mind. So I don't think that's valid enough to say they'd resist or be able to fight under the Genjutsu that Ma and Pa use, which seems to paralyze the target.

 

[Noneless21]

Even if they did paralyze their target, zoro has supernatural willpower so he should be able to break through the genjutsu i think

 

[Duedate8898]

Even if they did paralyze their target, zoro has supernatural willpower so he should be able to break through the genjutsu i think

No to that as well. It would definitely be NLF to assume that just because he has SW it would allow him to bypass an ability he's never had to deal with before or defeated.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Those aren't comparable, Kinemon is in a physically separate place. Also not all Genjutsu puts you in a separate place, it more just messes with your senses and your mind. So I don't think that's valid enough to say they'd resist or be able to fight under the Genjutsu that Ma and Pa use, which seems to paralyze the target.

That's literally on the profile...

Mind Manipulation and Mind based BFR and non-combat applicable Spatial Manipulation (With Ma and Pa])

Those aren't comparable, Kinemon is in a physically separate place.

That's literally the same thing... He can fight unconsciously which is even accepted here

Besides the genjutsu needs time to create, zoro won't be distracted and can read them via observation haki and attack before they make it.

 

[Noneless21]

No to that as well. It would definitely be NLF to assume that just because he has SW it would allow him to bypass an ability he's never had to deal with before or defeated.

I see, well lets just assume that i vote for zoro no matter the outcome and end with that shall we, this is a vs debate after all, if zoro loses then thats fine

 

[Duedate8898]

That's literally on the profile...



That's literally the same thing... He can fight unconsciously which is even accepted here

Besides the genjutsu needs time to create, zoro won't be distracted and can read them via observation haki and attack before they make it.

So I will admit, I had this genjutsu mixed up with another technique they used which is my fault.

With that said, what this genjustu does still isn't comparable to what Kinemon and the rest face. It isn't knocking the opponent unconscious, it's binding their psyche. Normal people can still move and act while unconscious or not aware of what's around them. All One Piece people can do specifically is do it with proficiency and skill. If Zoro were to get hit with this technique, their no presidence set that would say he'd be able to move.

I personally am not arguing for Naruto right now, I'm more just trying to make it clear that Zoro should not be considered able to resist the effects of this Genjutsu.

 

[Noneless21]

I see, then we can conclude that zoro CANNOT move from the genjutsu

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

So I will admit, I had this genjutsu mixed up with another technique they used which is my fault.

With that said, what this genjustu does still isn't comparable to what Kinemon and the rest face. It isn't knocking the opponent unconscious, it's binding their psyche. Normal people can still move and act while unconscious or not aware of what's around them. All One Piece people can do specifically is do it with proficiency and skill. If Zoro were to get hit with this technique, their no presidence set that would say he'd be able to move.

There's nothing making him not be able to move tho if he gets in that technique... If your mind gets BFR-ed you can still use your 6th sense or unconsciously fight, you haven't provided why that wouldn't work.

---

Actually I think that genjutsu BFR is spatial manipulation... Which would get resisted by haki

 

[Noneless21]

There's nothing making him not be able to move tho if he gets in that technique... If your mind gets BFR-ed you can still use your 6th sense or unconsciously fight, you haven't provided why that wouldn't work.

---

Actually I think that genjutsu BFR is spatial manipulation... Which would gets resisted by haki

He did says that it induce paralysis and because zoro didn't resist paralysis then we can conclude that zoro may not be able to move under ma and pa sound based genjutsu

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

He did says that it induce paralysis and because zoro didn't resist paralysis then we can conclude that zoro may not be able to move under ma and pa sound based genjutsu

Any scan how that works?

 

[Noneless21]

Pretty much like that

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Pretty much like that

Can't Zoro use his fear manipulation to paralyze the toads making him escape by interrupting the Chakra flow which I think is a weakness to genjutsus?

 

[Duedate8898]

Um, not sure myself on that one. I think most Chakra users at around jonin level and higher have resistance to Fear and Madness manipulation thanks to Zabuza who does the same shtick as Zoro in this case.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Um, not sure myself on that one. I think most Chakra users at around jonin level and higher have resistance to Fear and Madness manipulation thanks to Zabuza who does the same shtick as Zoro in this case.

Yee but thats for naruto... The toads don't have have a resistance I think.

 

[Noneless21]

Actually, ma and pa is pretty light so can they just got blown away by tatsumaki?

Also i saw the gamabunta profile and it didn't say anything about resistance to fear manip so i guess they didn't resist it

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

I mean zoro can just attack before they make the genjutsu but I wanna know if there is a way to escape while you are in the genjutsu

 

[Noneless21]

I mean zoro can just attack before they make the genjutsu but I wanna know if there is a way to escape while you are in the genjutsu

If it's to escape genjutsu that level then i guess just standard immense pain i guess

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I mean zoro can just attack before they make the genjutsu but I wanna know if there is a way to escape while you are in the genjutsu

He can't do anything. The genjutsu doesn't just bind your psyche/mind, it binds your body as well and prevents you from moving. Your body is completely helpless and paralyzed. That's not at all the same thing as Kienmon being cut in half and being able to move.

ANYWAY, I was under the impression that this is War Arc Sage Naruto. If that's the case, then it's not in character for him to use the toad sages at all.
If y'all want Naruto to use the toads, and even have extra Sage clones as back-up to extend his Sage Mode's time limit, then this should be switched to Pain Arc Naruto.
Naruto's chances would improve in that case.

Also, just for clarity's sake, yes the toads were going to use the genjutsu on Pain when fighting alongside Naruto. So the argument that they wouldn't, is simply false. They even paralyzed Pain's summons iirc.
Also, they're not helpless, weak creatures. They're pretty much just as strong as Sage Naruto himself.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

.

He can't do anything. The genjutsu doesn't just bind your psyche/mind, it binds your body as well and prevents you from moving. Your body is completely helpless and paralyzed. That's not at all the same thing as Kienmon being cut in half and being able to move.

ANYWAY, I was under the impression that this is War Arc Sage Naruto. If that's the case, then it's not in character for him to use the toad sages at all.
If y'all want Naruto to use the toads, and even have extra Sage clones as back-up to extend his Sage Mode's time limit, then this should be switched to Pain Arc Naruto.
Naruto's chances would improve in that case.

Also, just for clarity's sake, yes the toads were going to use the genjutsu on Pain when fighting alongside Naruto. So the argument that they wouldn't, is simply false. They even paralyzed Pain's summons iirc.
Also, they're not helpless, weak creatures. They're pretty much just as strong as Sage Naruto himself.

Sage fukasaku > sage jiraya? bruh moment.

 

[Noneless21]

He can't do anything. The genjutsu doesn't just bind your psyche/mind, it binds your body as well and prevents you from moving. Your body is completely helpless and paralyzed. That's not at all the same thing as Kienmon being cut in half and being able to move.

ANYWAY, I was under the impression that this is War Arc Sage Naruto. If that's the case, then it's not in character for him to use the toad sages at all.
If y'all want Naruto to use the toads, and even have extra Sage clones as back-up to extend his Sage Mode's time limit, then this should be switched to Pain Arc Naruto.
Naruto's chances would improve in that case.

Also, just for clarity's sake, yes the toads were going to use the genjutsu on Pain when fighting alongside Naruto. So the argument that they wouldn't, is simply false. They even paralyzed Pain's summons iirc.
Also, they're not helpless, weak creatures. They're pretty much just as strong as Sage Naruto himself.

I mean i know that they will immedietly uses genjutsu to pain because they already knew about how dangerous they are when they are group together, while in this case they both doesn't have any prior knowledge so naruto's first move should be rasenshuriken. If they have prior knowledge to each other then it will be a whole another battle

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

.

Sage fukasaku > sage jiraya? bruh moment.

Do you have an actual argument? Cause that's what the series shows.

I mean i know that they will immedietly uses genjutsu to pain because they already knew about how dangerous they are when they are group together, while in this case they both doesn't have any prior knowledge so naruto's first move should be rasenshuriken. If they have prior knowledge to each other then it will be a whole another battle

They didn't really know much of anything about Pain, and still went for that genjutsu when Jiraiya was struggling. As far as we know, it's their only offensive move, so if push comes to shove they'll use it. It doesn't even have anything to do with what Naruto starts with, because the toads fight independently of Naruto. He can fire whatever he wants, and they'd still be charging the genjutsu just in case if they feel it's necessary.

 

[Noneless21]

I see, then zoro might in very big trouble if ma and pa start immedietly with the genjutsu preparation because it is said that it only takes about a minute to kick in, then the next argument is about what is ma and pa's first move i guess

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Do you have an actual argument? Cause that's what the series shows.

They didn't really know much of anything about Pain, and still went for that genjutsu when Jiraiya was struggling. As far as we know, it's their only offensive move, so if push comes to shove they'll use it. It doesn't even have anything to do with what Naruto starts with, because the toads fight independently of Naruto. He can fire whatever he wants, and they'd still be charging the genjutsu just in case if they feel it's necessary.

If fukasaku was that strong, why didn't HE fight pain? Seems like a plot hole or he's just not that strong. Jiraya was clearly portrayed as stronger.
Jiraya was the one who suggested the genjutsu, it's not in character for them. And they used it late in the fight with naruto vs pain, it's not like they start with it, this is despite the fact that they knew it's effective against pain which they don't know against zoro.

 

[Noneless21]

Iirc, fukasaku is the one suggest it and ma frog says no because it mess with their sound system (forgot the name sorry) so the sound based genjutsu may be invoked in the middle of battle at their earliest

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

If fukasaku was that strong, why didn't HE fight pain? Seems like a plot hole or he's just not that strong. Jiraya was clearly portrayed as stronger.

You can't actually be serious....
They didn't fight Pain because Jiraiya needed them to rest on his shoulders and collect Sage chakra for him. That's the whole point of summoning them in the first place. And Jiraiya wasn't portrayed as anything, there's absolutely no comparison ever made between Jiraiya and Fukasaku, so that's all your headcanon.

Jiraya was the one who suggested the genjutsu, it's not in character for them. And they used it late in the fight with naruto vs pain, it's not like they start with it, this is despite the fact that they knew it's effective against pain which they don't know against zoro.

It's effective against anybody. And the reason they didn't start with it against Pain is:
1) It needs charging.
2) Naruto was engaging Pain, and throwing big AOE attacks like the Rasenshuriken at him. So they didn't wanna get caught up in it, and they didn't want Naruto caught up in the genjutsu.
3) They were initially out of range. Pain was far away from them. They only attempted it when Naruto was essentially nearly incapacitated, and they were close enough.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

You can't actually be serious....
They didn't fight Pain because Jiraiya needed them to rest on his shoulders and collect Sage chakra for him. That's the whole point of summoning them in the first place. And Jiraiya wasn't portrayed as anything, there's absolutely no comparison ever made between Jiraiya and Fukasaku, so that's all your headcanon.

It's effective against anybody. And the reason they didn't start with it against Pain is:
1) It needs charging.
2) Naruto was engaging Pain, and throwing big AOE attacks like the Rasenshuriken at him. So they didn't wanna get caught up in it, and they didn't want Naruto caught up in the genjutsu.
3) They were initially out of range. Pain was far away from them. They only attempted it when Naruto was essentially nearly incapacitated, and they were close enough.

I see. But if those were the reasons why they couldn't activate it against pain then I don't see them activating it at all against zoro who has similarly large AoE, blitzing and range. Not just that but mind reading and precognition.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Speed is equalized, so no blitzing will occur on either side. And Zoro doesn't actually have future sight afaik.
Everything else is fair enough though.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Speed is equalized, so no blitzing will occur on either side. And Zoro doesn't actually have future sight afaik.
Everything else is fair enough though.

Zoro has speed amps via techniques and RPL. Zoro has proficient level observation which grants precognition via mind reading.